Hmmm, I'm not sure that I'm really digging the layout. I see a lot of issues with what you have. I realize that there are restrictions on how much you might be able to change due to doorways and so on, but, I think things can be made better.

You've done well showing us what you have now and some ideas of what you are after. To help us a bit more, if you could give room dimensions and also show the adjoining rooms (with their sizes) maybe we can help more. It might be helpful to know also if windows or current doorways can be moved. Do you know if the wall between the kitchen and the DR is load bearing or is the one between the kitchen and the FR the load bearing wall? I'm wondering if you might be better utilizing more of the DR as kitchen-ish space. Do you like the idea of a banquette seating area (possibly more storage areas for you then also)?

Again, I think the layout can probably be made much better, but I'm not one of the best ones for that, so I'm not going to try changing it around.

In your layout, I see you with one 18 inch upper, and you want that to be glass? Are there display pieces that you want to put in your kitchen? I'm not saying not to do it, but with such limited uppers, I'm not certain that glass is the best. I'm thinking that your everyday glasses and such might go there...and I know that my everyday glasses aren't really display worthy.

Also, looking at the space you have for your garbage, a 12" base seems narrow for garbage. Maybe there are some out there, but I didn't remember seeing one that narrow.

Anyway, I'm thinking that there might be a lot of room for improvement in the layout if we get a few more details...I think that seeing what size area you have to work with in the DR would be helpful

I really really miss having a window in front of my sink in my new space. Have you considered that fully?

Here's a new picture with dimensions. The kitchen is 9 feet by 11 feet, as shown. The dining room is 11 x 11, but I do not want to expand the kitchen space into the dining room. The wall between kitchen and dining room is not load-bearing. The wall between the dining and t.v. room is, it is actually what used to be the exterior house wall -- the t.v. room was a porch before it became enclosed into a bonus room. So, basically all the doorways are pretty set.

I plan to keep just drinking glasses and mugs in the glass cabinet -- that's more convenient for the refrigerator, and we've been doing fine with keeping our other dishes in the dining room.

Thanks for your input -- I can tell you don't like it, but I'd be interested to hear what you don't like! :-)

If I am reading your plan right you still have some room (18+ inches?) on the fridge wall. I would think about making your pantry another few inches wider, maybe a full foot.

Is there a reason your range can't be moved to the left? I can't imagine it not making things sooo much easier if you had prep space on both sides of the range. My last two houses and our current one had/has non-functional or non-existent prep space to one side, and I cannot wait to rearrange my kitchen and get that prep space.

Per the microwave: if you move the range this could solve that issue. If you do not move the range I think you will be fine if the cabs flanking the microwave built-in are the same style. It would probably be better to have doors on those flankers, though, and one drawer to not confuse the eye.

I would swap the range and the left 24" cabinet, make the far right lower cab a full-height door with pullouts, then your far left cabinet could be any form you wanted; drawers, doors, etc.

That "5 inch bump," is it a spacer or an actual wall bump-out for the room on the other side? If it is a spacer that is 5 more inches of cabinet you could add to that run.

P.S., never mind about the wider pantry; I now see that would make your walkway to the basement door too narrow.

Sorry, I can't figure out how to quote and reply, so I'll just cut and paste:

Wendyb said: I really really miss having a window in front of my sink in my new space. Have you considered that fully?

- Yes, actually this should be much better. When I'm doing the dishes I'll be able to see all the action in the dining room, and out that window to the front of the house if I want. The window in the kitchen is not an inspiring view -- just a narrow alley and a privacy fence staring back at me. :-)

Greenhaven said: If I am reading your plan right you still have some room (18+ inches?) on the fridge wall. I would think about making your pantry another few inches wider, maybe a full foot.

- You're right in your follow-up, this would make it too hard to get down to the basement (especially with laundry baskets, that's where our washer/dryer are)

Is there a reason your range can't be moved to the left?

- The range can't be moved just a bit to the left or it would be in front of the window. All the way to the left and it would be right in front of the basement. That would be more awkward than up against the wall. Honestly, I know the stove placement is weird, but it doesn't bother us much, except that there's no food prep space next to it except that measly 9" strip of counter between the stove and the sink. This will be much better with the new design.

I can't imagine it not making things sooo much easier if you had prep space on both sides of the range. My last two houses and our current one had/has non-functional or non-existent prep space to one side, and I cannot wait to rearrange my kitchen and get that prep space.

- I agree that would be optimal, but I don't see how to do it without blocking the window with the range hood.

Per the microwave: if you move the range this could solve that issue. If you do not move the range I think you will be fine if the cabs flanking the microwave built-in are the same style. It would probably be better to have doors on those flankers, though, and one drawer to not confuse the eye.

I would swap the range and the left 24" cabinet, make the far right lower cab a full-height door with pullouts, then your far left cabinet could be any form you wanted; drawers, doors, etc.

That "5 inch bump," is it a spacer or an actual wall bump-out for the room on the other side? If it is a spacer that is 5 more inches of cabinet you could add to that run.

- It's an actual wall bump-out, I think because they carved a half-bath out of the room on the other side. I suspect the pipes for that room or for upstairs run through there.

Hope that helps! Thanks for the advice!

I really recommend working with a 3D planner to visualize your kitchen with colours, finishes, from different sightlines. IKEA and Home Depot both have good and easy ones - you don't have to choose their cabinetry, just use the planner for basic layout. It was sooooo useful when I was in the layout planning stage!

One concern is that your new layout doesn't pass the "pasta pot test" - ie you have to cross a lane of traffic to drain a pot of pasta. Can be a hazard, and inconvenient.

edited to add:
I am one who needs a window above the sink.

This post was edited by feisty68 on Thu, Mar 13, 14 at 1:56

I'm planning a big single bowl undermount sink that completely fills a 24" cabinet (Ruvati 25in 16-gauge fits with shaving). Underneath there will be a nifty trash/recycling organizer. If you did that you could fit a 24" cabinet with storage beside your sink instead of just the 12" pullout.

I can't get your numbers for the sink run to add up. The kitchen is 11 ft or 132 inches wide. Take our 26" (wall to left of doorway to DR) and 35" (DR opening) and you're left with 71".
71
-12 trash cab
-36 sink cab
-24 DW
-----
- 1

Plus you haven't factored in counter overhang (1.5") or cab end/counter support between DW and side wall (at least 3/4"). You can make this work if you go with a smaller sink (30") or a narrower DW (18") but it won't work the way you've drawn it (sorry to be the bearer of bad news).

You also have a serious pinch point between fridge front and adjacent counter. Including 1.5" counter overhang, you only have a 29" aisle to get to the basement door And that's assuming that the fridge is an integrated fridge (24" deep) - and not a built-in (about 27" deep) or a stand-along counter depth fridge (29"-30").

I have an idea that I'll draw up tomorrow. I'm dealing with migraine hangover and my brain is still on the fuzzy side.

What if you had a range with downdraft venting?

You have limited space in your kitchen and you are dedicating valuable space for trash storage. Take a look at the option shown in the link. You should be able to put your trash storage inside the sink cabinet and free up the small cabinet for more useful storage. You will need good storage next to your most used area in the kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Using sink cabinet for trash storage.

Hi! I'll try to answer some questions here.

andreak100 said: looking at the space you have for your garbage, a 12" base seems narrow for garbage. Maybe there are some out there, but I didn't remember seeing one that narrow.

- Yes, IKEA has a 12" pull-out for garbage, and two cans (one for standard, one for recycling) that fit into it. :-) I think Simple Human also does a 12" garbage pull-out.

Lisa_a said:

can't get your numbers for the sink run to add up. The kitchen is 11 ft or 132 inches wide. Take our 26" (wall to left of doorway to DR) and 35" (DR opening) and you're left with 71".
71
-12 trash cab
-36 sink cab
-24 DW
-----
- 1
Plus you haven't factored in counter overhang (1.5") or cab end/counter support between DW and side wall (at least 3/4"). You can make this work if you go with a smaller sink (30") or a narrower DW (18") but it won't work the way you've drawn it (sorry to be the bearer of bad news).

You also have a serious pinch point between fridge front and adjacent counter. Including 1.5" counter overhang, you only have a 29" aisle to get to the basement door And that's assuming that the fridge is an integrated fridge (24" deep) - and not a built-in (about 27" deep) or a stand-along counter depth fridge (29"-30").

I have an idea that I'll draw up tomorrow. I'm dealing with migraine hangover and my brain is still on the fuzzy side.

- Yikes! I know I took careful measurements when initially planning, but I'll double-check tonight. My guess is that I included the wide door frame in the 35" measurement (my five-year-old was insisting on "helping" so it was all a little rushed when I did it last night). You are also right, in that I didn't know I needed to allow 1.5" for the lip on the granite. That said, it looks like the minimum size for an open doorway is 32", so given that it's just a peninsula on the right I should still be okay, I hope? My dishwasher support panel (if I'm looking at the correct one) is 1/2", and most of the dishwashers I'm looking at say they are actually 23.5", so I'm hoping at most I'll be a few sixteenths of an inch over.

I should mention that I am meeting with the contractor this weekend, and then the next step is to have the IKEA kitchen planner look at my design and take measurements. I just wanted to be pretty focused about what I want before that step, so I know I've thought through things.

I can probably do a smaller sink cabinet if I need to, although I'm not terribly worried about storage near the sink...there will be under-sink storage regardless, and I'm hoping to do a tip-out shelf in the false-front drawers for storage of sponges, etc.

I forgot to mention that I'm doing a french-door fridge...will that help with the "pinch-point"? It will have a bottom freezer drawer, but hopefully the need to fully extend that will be minimal and brief.

I do realize compared to some of the luxury kitchens on here, mine is small and not ideal. I'm just hoping to make it more functional for us. :-D

greenhaven: From what I've read on here the downdraft stoves are expensive to install and not very functional? If I were thinking primarily of resale maybe I would think about having one, but for us I don't feel that the stove placement is as problematic as everyone else seems to think -- perhaps because we've lived with it this way for so long! Moving it would have to put it under the window (which I don't think would work, even with a downdraft stove?) or close to the basement, which seems worse than where it is now.

This post was edited by doctorgirlfriend on Thu, Mar 13, 14 at 12:18

Since the window doesn't have a great view, would you be willing to put in a smaller window to create more wall space? Still some light, but would make it more functional to have the stove moved over some.

Do you have access to the TV room from the dining room? If you do, do you really need the doorway from the kitchen? How about creating access if you don't? That would give you more options.

I understand the small space issues, mine is about the same dimensions. I do recommend a smaller sink cabinet and placing the trash under there -- there will still be plenty of room for typical under sink stuff.

raee said:
Do you have access to the TV room from the dining room? If you do, do you really need the doorway from the kitchen? How about creating access if you don't? That would give you more options.
I understand the small space issues, mine is about the same dimensions. I do recommend a smaller sink cabinet and placing the trash under there -- there will still be plenty of room for typical under sink stuff.

Nope, the t.v. room has no access from the dining room. It is basically a straight shot the width of the kitchen, whereas the whole relevant dining room wall faces out to the porch. I would have to build a tunnel. :-) This might help you visualize...this is the corner of the porch. The brick wall is the far side of the dining room, where the original house ended. The white siding is the added-on room.

Lyfia said: Since the window doesn't have a great view, would you be willing to put in a smaller window to create more wall space? Still some light, but would make it more functional to have the stove moved over some.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I think that's a no-go. The view isn't great, but the light is wonderful, and we just replaced the old original crank windows with nice new ones. The stove doesn't bother me NEARLY enough to deal with all that just to move it over a half foot or so.

Can I ask, what is it that is making people so virulently opposed to having the stove against the wall? Is it just that you don't have counter space on both sides? Because honestly, I'm not seeing the horror of that. I'll settle for having counterspace on one side of it, which is more than we have now!

French door is the style of the fridge, however, it does not answer my question about the depth of the fridge. I have a free-standing, counter-depth French door fridge. The face of it sits 29" out from the wall, not including handles. That's 5" more than I calculated based on my assumption from your drawing that you had a fully integrated fridge. How the fridge opens won't matter because you're still working with at the most 29" of aisle and quite possibly less than that. If your furnace, water heater, washer and dryer are in the basement - heck, even if you have a couch in the basement - you're going to need more than 29" of clearance to get large things in and out of the basement.

What's on the other side of the wall where the fridge is in your planned design? Could you recess the fridge into the wall at all?

Here is a link that might be useful: [Stay Cool About Picking the Right Refrigerator[(https://www.houzz.com/magazine/stay-cool-about-picking-the-right-refrigerator-stsetivw-vs~4779591)

I used to move to a different apartment every year for many years so I've had lots of funky small apartments :) . There are genuine space/window/door constraints in your kitchen and I understand that you need to work around them. I think keeping your stove in the current location makes sense for many reasons. Not ideal, but not the end of the world either. The other option - if you can manage the venting - would be to have the stove where the sink is in your plan, with space on either side. Then the sink and dishwasher on the window wall.

My kitchen is the same size. It is closed off from the rest of the house. And it too has 3 doorways to and from. I made compromises because of our space/budget and made decisions based on our family's needs, taking into account how those needs would change (my littles are 8, 7, and 5). My general advice is to be clear about what you cannot compromise, and keep that list short.

Three questions:
What is the size of your aisle between the back wall cabinet run and the drm wall cabinet run?

How much space do you have from the top of the basement stairs to the run of cabs along that back wall?

Could you move the dining room doorway?

My math for that back wall isn't making sense to me, unless you have a really tight space between the basement stairs and that counter. (I used to have only 21"!)

Here's a slight tweak of your proposed plan:

Clearances are counter to counter or appliance face to counter.

Since you already had 18" deep cabinets extending into the DR, I bumped the pantry cab towards the DR to be even with those cabs. This gained some much needed clearance between the fridge and range run counter (I'm assuming your fridge is a counter depth French door model, not a built-in or fully integrated slimmer model). I was able to increase the pantry cab from 18" to 24" and still have a sufficient aisle here.

I increased the DR cabs from 18" to 24" deep - you could use the storage - and shifted the whole section 6" towards the range run, still maintaining a generous 49.5" between the range and sink runs.

I shifted the range over a smidge so that you have room for a 12" pull-out cab between range and wall (I'm assuming the 5" bump was filler and not useful storage). That does mean the hood will overlap the window trim by 1.5" but that's doable. See this image for inspiration:

[

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Mill Valley Architects & Designers Sutton Suzuki Architects

I eliminated the 18" end cab, including the upper cab, on the range wall. That was the other tweak I made to give you sufficient clearance at the basement stairs.

The sink goes from a 36" to a 24" cab to gain more aisle space between sink run counters and fridge front (that 40.75" clearance does not include the fridge handles). This will also make it easier to move the fridge in and out of its spot. Heaven forbid it needs service anytime soon but you want to make sure you have room for the service person to work on it.

Put your trash under the sink; use the 12" pull-out cab to store silverware, glasses and other items. Dishes go in the cabs facing the DR.

I changed the DR size to show how much floor space you have for table and chairs. 9.5" is tight. Have you considered a banquette type seating arrangement to gain some elbow room?

Have you considered placing 4-sided glass cabinets between sink counter and DR like this?

Go with 12" deep uppers pushed forward to the edge, DR side, so that you have a deeper counter on the sink side. Store dishes, glasses, etc in these cabs. It will let light in but help blur the view to any kitchen messes, plus it will be conveniently located storage when unloading the DR or setting the table.

This cab will have to be an Ikea hack. The cabs in my plan above all fit Ikea sizes.

Just a sketch of another option to remove the traffic path going through the kitchen. Note this is a sketch so would need tweaking with sizes etc.

I haven't actually done a measurement thing or anything, but this would mean people no longer have to walk through the kitchen to get to the TV room or block a traffic path if trying to get something from the fridge.

At a minimum you should aim for 36" of space to walk through as that makes it a single person space to walk through. Smaller and you are creating a hip banging hazard.

Don't know if this can be an option for you.
Can you consider moving the range under the window?
This is what I did:

It met all codes for our area. The glass is not at all hard to clean.
If it would work for you, it might open some options.

Another idea. I would hate to lose use of the wall where the basement door swings open.

On that wall between the range cabinets and the basement door, a shallow pantry-style cabinet might be recessed into the wall between studs. You can then use the space inside the wall. It would hold one-can depth, and if built with many adjustable shelves it would hold a ton of "stuff." Glasses, canned goods, flour, sugar. . . . "stuff."
The chances are it could protrude slightly--a couple inches?--into the room without interfering with the door swing.

Here's a photo from Houzz. Scale down for more pics of pantries built between studs.

Here is a link that might be useful: [pantry between studs[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/shallow-recessed-pantry-phbr0lbl-bl~l_98653)

Bellsmom said: Another idea. I would hate to lose use of the wall where the basement door swings open.
On that wall between the range cabinets and the basement door, a shallow pantry-style cabinet might be recessed into the wall between studs.

- oh, wow, I love this idea! I'll see if I can make it happen. In the current kitchen they misjudged the cabinet overhang, so the basement door doesn't open past the current counter run. :-) Losing a few inches from it opening fully will be a walk in the park, as long as it's still up to code. :-) It is an exterior wall so I may have to deal with insulation, but it's worth a shot!

This post was edited by doctorgirlfriend on Fri, Mar 14, 14 at 16:02

lisa_a: Thank you for all that hard work! You're making it very tempting to steal some of the room from the dining room to the kitchen, but honestly I think for our purposes we'd probably rather have more dining room space. Definitely something to think about, though. Sadly, the 5" bump-out of the wall I believe was put there for a reason -- I suspect to hold the pipes for the half-bath that was carved out of the t.v. room on the other side of the wall. In the end I think more counter space + bigger sink in the original plan is worth more to us than more pantry space + counterspace on both sides of the stove. I get the sense that a lot of you guys are super-duper cooks. We really aren't we use the range for boiling water for pasta and the oven for banana bread and cookies. :-) I was much more concerned about the placement of the microwave and fridge than any other part of the kitchen. ;-)

I did think of putting a double row of uppers above the peninsula back-to-back rather than one above the other (so, a row facing into the kitchen with solid doors and a row facing out to the dining room with glass doors), but decided it would interfere with the open feel I wanted more than it would be useful for storage. There's a small chance I might change my mind about that once the wall is down, but I'm guessing not. Since my whole purpose behind the renovation is to be able to watch the kiddo doing his homework at the dining room table while I do dishes/food prep, I don't think obscuring the view fully with glass cabinets would suit my aims. ;-)

Thank you guys so much for all the thought you've put into this. I'll share the 3D model when I get it.

My plan really doesn't extend the kitchen into the DR any more than your proposed plan does (with the cabs in the DR for dish storage). Moving the pantry towards the DR to be even with the DR cabs won't affect clearance around a table. You're already working with a DR that is 11' x 9.5' because of the DR cabs.

I doubt you'll be able to use space between the studs in an exterior wall for pantry storage. Codes do vary by region but I'm not able to put a niche above my cook top on an exterior wall without bumping the wall into the room to create the niche. Even if you could, you'd lose all your insulation value in that space, creating a cold spot in your kitchen.