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empet_gw

Layout help please - a many-doored kitchen

empet
13 years ago

I'm emerging from just lurking around the forums, to ask for some comments on my proposed kitchen layout. We're DIYers with a genius FIL carpenter to make it all happen, but no pro design help.

The house is a not-at-all-historical 1915 colonial(?) in a working-class New England neighborhood. We want it nice to use but not too posh for the area. Style goal is modern but not stylized, clean lines without decorative grooves to trap gunk in, efficient working layout for me and my husband. No kids yet, so I barely know what baby-friendly means, but we might want that.

The house layout is odd, a circular floorplan involving the kitchen, living room, and dining room all arranged around a front stairwell, with extra stairs in back - yet it's not an open floorplan or a "great-room" type feel. Here's a map of the first floor with the current kitchen counters/appliances as installed now, free-standing furniture in brown. Coming in the front door, there's options for kitchen, living room, or stairs up to the bedroom/office/bath level; the back hallway goes outside, upstairs (bathroom), or basement. Oddly enough, because there are doors and stairs to everywhere from everywhere, the kitchen is not constant through-traffic, there's always an alternate route. The odd-shaped closet is a pantry; the built-in hutch between the dining room and the stove holds plates/bowls, and stovetop pots/pans.

Physical constraints marked in red:

- The drain vent column for the whole house is to the left of the sink; maybe could move the sink, but not the vent pipe.

- The pantry wall is loadbearing, and there's enclosed HVAC in the corner.

- The window over the sink is half-height; the other window extends below table level. Could be shortened, if necessary, but it's not good for the budget.

From Drop Box

Current use of the kitchen: Two cooks alternating nights of being king-chef and prep-minion - lots of fresh veg prep for skillet and wok, soups/stews, some baking. Microwave used daily for coffee; 2+ per week thawing/reheating; never large-scale cooking. We eat 95% in the casual dining room, 4% in front of the TV, and 1% weekend morning coffee and pancakes-fresh-off-the-stove at a little 2-seater kitchen table that's usually covered in mail and junk (those chairs get sat in for chatting with the cook more often than we eat at the table). Casual hostessing, bbqs, potlucks, extended-family dinners, but that's not frequent enough to plan my house around. I like the idea of having sitting space for "drink your wine and watch me cook because of course dinner won't be at 6:30 what was I thinking?!", but the breakfast bar won't really get much day-to-day action for eating.

Why we're really doing this (besides extra storage and cabinets that don't give me splinters):

- a dishwasher (sick of not having one!!)

- a vent hood for the stove (we're planning suspended glass-canopy island type - not pictured, it confused the overhead view) inconvenient but possible venting at ceiling level, even worse in the basement so not considering downdraft.

- we need to replace the fridge and don't want the constraint of the current 31" wide nook.

- Our splurge is an integral drainboard (part of either the sink or the countertop)

- No real interest in a prep sink, a pot-filler faucet, wall oven(s), or a giant OTR microwave.

From Drop Box

My DH, bless his heart, loves 3D design software, so he's tried over 20 variations in Sketchup, and this one is my favorite. I like that there's a lot of contiguous prep counter. I like that the prep/chopping person isn't standing between the cook and the sink or fridge. I like that the sitting space doubles as prep space when the stools are pushed under the ledge. I know the range vent duct will present some challenges, but I think it'll work. I worry a bit about traffic flow in that all the paths cross between the stove and the rest of the room.

The runner-up, a.k.a. cheap version, puts all the appliances in a row against the outside wall, and an island for storage/seating/prep space. Saves $ by keeping current range, easier cheaper range venting, less counter material, simpler/smaller island, but the paths are narrow unless we ditch seating. Other variations (narrow peninsula off pantry-side wall, move window for L shape or U-shape) didn't feel right, either there was a large part of the kitchen that just wasn't getting used, or the work area was cramped, or the traffic was weird, or a lot of effort for no real gain, etc. Maybe if we put shortened the window and put the stove directly in front of it, the L shape would work, but DH is pretty adamant that a stove in front of a window is bad.

Comment-wise, I am open to total rearrangements of everything especially if it revolves around something clever I might not have thought of trying. DH did a wide variety of layouts, (see above), but I'll try to stay open-minded and not say "we tried that!!" before I listen. Mostly I'm interested in hearing what you think are the weak points of the floorplan as-is.

The main questions I have:

1. The coffee+MW is on a 12" deep cabinet on the wall behind the person working at the stove.

a. As pictured, the walkways are 37" (stove side) and 42" (bar side) - or how should I divide that 79" of space up for easiest walking?

b. Is it worth sacrificing the 12" cabinet to get two 46" paths?

2. Junk over the peninsula: island-type range hood is a necessity. Is the cabinet between the hood and the wall good sense, or too visually distracting/heavy?

3. Non-linear bar layout a good idea?

4. Trash left of sink (convenient to sink, stove) or right of dishwasher (convenient to prep area)?

Thanks for reading - I was trying to be informative, but just ended up with "long-winded"!! :)

Comments (15)

  • huango
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Instead of raising the low window (by porch), can you somehow cover it up (see link below) or another TKO put the sink in front of the winow itself (I can't find that thread right now)?

    Then this would allow the stove to go to the Right of the other window, removing the cooking action from the middle of the room. And you can vent it easier w/ an outside wall.

    You can then put in shallow floor-to-ceiling cabinets where the stove is now. It'll feel really spacious.

    thanks,
    Amanda

    from outside view:

    from the inside view:

    Here is a link that might be useful: example of sink in front of low window

  • Buehl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Would you be open to closing off the door to the kitchen from the entry?

    Right now that nice long run of counter space is kind of wasted...it's not in a very useful location. You could probably put your coffeemaker there, but the rest will end up as a junk drop zone, especially since it's so convenient to the entry. You could make an effort to create a Message/Command Center there and include organization accessories to try to corral and organize the clutter...

  • rosie
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What a nice house, Emet. I could live there. :) Another could you: I love that very valuable circular floor plan, but if it were mine I'd be very interested in moving the flow on the left to a line from the LRM across the DRM, across the end of the kitchen, then on out the back door, hopefully thereby

    * Establishing a nice lengthy and attractive view line down the house (adjusting the LR/DR doorway as needed),
    * Improving the relation of the active living spaces with the back yard ("LRM, this is Patio. Patio, this is LRM. You two have a lot in common."); and in the process
    *Clearing out that wall/door clutter in the middle of the kitchen space to free it up to a bunch of new possibilities.

    You want the calm simplicity of modern, and creating spaces with elegantly simple but meaningful visual and functional relationships will further that big time. And make your home feel open and spacious while retaining nice separations for different functions and mood.

  • brickton
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What about moving the door to the basement to the dining room? Move the pantry to the space that door occupies, change the existing pantry to be the fridge and broom closet. With the fridge facing the porch, the broom closet facing the sink wall.

    Now about closing off the entry.. what about doing a door to the porch instead of a window and changing the whole shape to more of a galley space?

    These are my random thoughts.

  • brickton
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Or moving the door to the dining room over to where the basement entrance is in order to get around having to have the other wall cut-up with two doors.

  • lavender_lass
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Palimpsest- Bumping that microwave/coffee area, back into the pantry, would be a very good idea. It would also give you more space between that counter and the stove area. The way it's drawn, it looks like the stools fit under the counter, but if someone is sitting in them, they might block the door.

    Also, some glass uppers, might help break up that long cabinet area, to the right of the sink. Even something frosted would give you a little more sparkle, to go with the stainless steel :)

  • lyvia
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hmm- I can tell you worked hard on this - most of what I can think of is worse than what you drew. One of the things I like in your drawing is the possibility of adding another window onto the porch. Would that be beautiful natural light or be too cold and not such a great view?

    The drawback is this - imagine pulling something off the stove to drain, carrying a hot pot toward the sink, and somebody or a dog comes around the blind corner there and splat. Not such a risk for grownups, but something to think about for kids. It's another reason to put the stove on the outside wall, and let the middle be the prep center.

    One way to save on aisle space behind seating is to make a built-in bench where people slide in instead of pulling out chairs. Yours might end up elevated, to get the counter high enough to prep. On the left where the number 71 is in the drawing, put a bench seat, then an island/table in front of that. It's an idea, but I think I like yours better, (with the stove moved).

  • empet
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow - thanks, all, for the ideas! I had a busy evening yesterday and wasn't able to keep up as it came in. :)

    Rosie and Brickton suggest opening up from the back into the dining room; unfortunately it's a change that's bigger than our budget for the project. I meant to say my physical constraints _for the kitchen_ were marked in red - and not mess with the the rest of the house at all! But now that you mention it, losing that door/traffic from the kitchen would be kind of nice :) though it would take a bit to elevate the back hallway from a utility space (smells like cellar!) to something worth attaching to the dining room.

    Buehl, you're totally right about the corner prep counter being as much part of the dumping zone traffic pattern as of the kitchen traffic pattern. The mini-galley like Palimpest suggests would address that really well. (It occurs to me that we might not have revisited that after DH discovered the existence of the slide-in range, and it would likely work better when he's not trying to fit a cooktop and oven in separately. hmmm... worth a shot!)

    And I wonder what we can do with Lyvia's bench idea. (I was just looking at the banquette thread...)

    We drifted putting toward the stove on the peninsula instead of on the back wall with everything else, because it seemed like having all the appliances in a line against the outside wall would tangle up all the multi-cook paths, makes it more likely someone is standing directly in between any two stations, more going around each other. Am I wrong? Would the straight-line plan be a functional improvement over what I posted?

  • ideagirl2
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What if you do the plan you like, except that you switch out the range and DW like so:

    (1) Move the dishwasher into the island, but not exactly where the range is--instead, have it on the end facing the sink. It will be easy to load this way. Yes, it will block the passageway when open, but it's going to do that anyway.

    (2) Put the range at least two feet to the right of the sink. If you feel you're losing too much storage space by putting the vent hood here, then wrap the upper cabs around the corner to get a little more space. And the space in the peninsula that is shown occupied by the range could be used for undercounter storage, or you could leave a little room under there for someone to sit there--that way you could have seating for 4 or perhaps even five people there.

    What this would do is basically give you a modified galley kitchen with a very logical flow: food comes out of the fridge, gets washed if need be, then goes to the stove to be cooked. This layout would prevent the type of accident Lyvia mentioned, since you would never need to carry a hot pan across a passageway. It would also keep cooking mess and spatter away from people seated at the peninsula, as well as giving you a lot more continuous prep space on the peninsula for those times when you need it (Thanksgiving, etc.).

    The plumbing for the DW would probably be not one bit more difficult than it would be to put it next to the sink--as long as it's not too far from the sink you're fine, it doesn't need to be right beside it. And of course, venting the range would be easier and cheaper.

  • empet
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hmmm... I like the idea of the DW across from the sink. I think the plumbing would be significantly different, but I'll consult with the plumber, I mean FIL. ;)

  • ControlfreakECS
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think you should draw out the galley kitchen idea. Just messing around on some graph paper, I put an 8' long peninsula coming out from the wall where you currently have your microwave. Aisles are a little small, that is my one concern.

    I would put the microwave and coffee center at the end of the long run of counter, I think that was mentioned by pp, sorry I don't remember who. Pluses are it is out of the work zones and easily accessible by visitors into the kitchen and makes good use out of an otherwise fairly useless area, negs are it is far from the fridge and other food storage. I would not want the dw in the prep area, and would put it on the other side of the sink. I would elevate the seating behind the range for a few reasons. It protects guest from being splashed, and allows you to get away with a narrower seating counter. Seating at counter height should be 15" deep. Although people have certainly gotten by with less, it is easier to sit at a 12" deep counter when it is at a taller height. Of course, the negative is the loss of a large flat expanse of counter, but with the range there, I have to wonder if you'd really be using that space for crafting, gift wrapping and all the other things regularly mentioned here as uses for a large flat island or peninsula surface.

    Good luck!

  • ideagirl2
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    DW on the other side of the sink, and then range at least 2 feet to the right of the sink, would work too. The main thing with the modified galley is to get the range off the island and onto the main run of counter, so that your island is more flexible in its uses and so that the mess and spatter of cooking don't make it unpleasant to sit there.

    The decision on where the DW goes might be dictated by which way your joists run. Since you don't have a DW there is no plumbing to change, but if the joists run L to R (towards the sink window), it might be easier to put it in the island and run the pipes between joists over to the plumbing stack that the sink is sitting on. Whereas if the joists run top to bottom, it would be easier to put it to the left of the sink. But if you have a strong preference for the DW being in one of those locations rather than the other, I don't know if the joist direction would make it SO difficult that it's not worth drilling a few holes in the joists to get it done how you prefer it.

  • cluelessincolorado
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How about getting rid of the MW/coffee shelf altogether and housing them above drawers and below glass cabs where the one of the pantries(?) is now? Then you wouldn't have to wend your way around them on your way from the DR to the sink. Another idea would be to have a large table/island with 12" deep cabs at the end to house a sideways trash can if you want to prep on it.

  • empet
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, yes, the dishwasher... I'd love it if it would fit there to the left of the sink, but there's no space because of the drain vent pipe (not obvious enough in the overhead view, sorry about that).

    I'm sure it's possible in theory (ripping out and redoing the cast iron to get the sink drain connected into the network lower than the current 10" above floor level) but the father in law looked at it and said it wasn't an option. I listen to my GC.

    I actually love your take, cluelessinCO, if everything would fit. A wall lineup like that was my first sketch, that the FIL then vetoed. :(