Can you re-post the pictures/diagrams?

What are your concerns--that is, what are you hoping to accomplish by changing things? What would you be able to do, how would the feel of it change, etc.? How do you cook and how do you hope to cook? Knowing that would help us target the advice we give.

One thing I wonder is whether you might be better off with a single-bowl sink. Double bowl sinks are useful if you do a lot of dishes by hand, but if you don't, they take up a lot of space and you can't actually use them to soak many things (since the bowls are much smaller than a single bowl would be so large pans, cookie sheets etc. won't fit). Replacing the double with, say, a 25" single bowl (which is huge, considering your single bowls are each probably only 14"-18" right now) would gain you a lot of counter space, which is at a premium in your kitchen.

Reposted with a different image host. I should also include that it was SummerfieldDesigns who made the entrance way suggestion in this thread.

Hi all,

I've been reading and lurking here for a while and trying to soak up some knowledge. I've asked for help with my entryway layout in the 'Small Home' forum and had some great feedback. So, I'm finally ready to post a few views of my proposed kitchen layout. I'd love to get some feedback from you all.

Here is the non-functional layout we currently live with:

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Here is what I've come up with after about a half dozen revisions (yes, our home is flipped):

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A few comments:

- The large opening at the rear is currently a sliding glass door but it may change to double french doors or I may make it large window and put a french door beside the fireplace (in place of one of the windows).

- Removing the load-bearing wall (which also contains a plumbing stack, wiring and an HVAC line) completely is problematic so I've left it in. I wasn't actually able to effectively design the rooms very well when it was removed completely anyways.

- I've just sketched the cabinets, obviously a full cabinet plan is needed but I'm really just trying to layout everything and get it all to fit at this point.

- The front room will not have a dining room table in it but I've left it in to give an idea of its size. This will be used as a quiet sitting/reading room (aka library).

What are your concerns--that is, what are you hoping to accomplish by changing things? What would you be able to do, how would the feel of it change, etc.? How do you cook and how do you hope to cook? Knowing that would help us target the advice we give.

If you look at the original layout, it is a very small cooking area and a constrained eating area:

- There's really not enough room for two people to cook in the kitchen simultaneously. I.e. there is really only one prep area and if you are at the sink, you block the stove.

- There is very limited storage... I've added a fancy pull-out corner shelving unit but the corner near the sink is completely inaccessible due to plumbing.

- I like to cook AND bake so adding counter space is paramount.

- It is impossible to seat more than 4 in the current eating area. Given there is no real dining room in this house, I'd like to make it possible to seat 4 comfortably and 8 for the occasional dinner (yes, I'm willing to rearrange furniture for the occasional dinner guests).

- We have one young child (and are planning for another) so being able to see into the living room from the kitchen/eating area would be ideal.

- The sliding patio doors are pretty much inaccessible once you put a table in the original eating area.

One thing I wonder is whether you might be better off with a single-bowl sink. Double bowl sinks are useful if you do a lot of dishes by hand, but if you don't, they take up a lot of space and you can't actually use them to soak many things (since the bowls are much smaller than a single bowl would be so large pans, cookie sheets etc. won't fit). Replacing the double with, say, a 25" single bowl (which is huge, considering your single bowls are each probably only 14"-18" right now) would gain you a lot of counter space, which is at a premium in your kitchen.

I'm thinking of a single bowl with an integrated drain rack (either as part of the sink or the counter top).

A lot to digest. I think you are trying to put too much in a small space--specifically, table and chairs, slider, fireplace, etc.

Some random thoughts, not all of which are compatible with each other:

- You still have tiny prep space, especially with that wall there. At minimum, move the range away from the sink
- I'd give up on the patio doors. You can keep the window, probably, but why not make the window to the left of the fireplace a door? There is no structural difference, both have headers and king studs and such.
- Alternatively, try one of those table-against-the-island arrangements to get the seating away from the door (I thought you had that once?)
- Or invest in a smaller, nicer-looking version of one of these, maybe, so you get full use of your living room:
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Picture nicer, just one seat wide, and more residential feeling than that. Something that gives seating on both table and LR sides.

Also, I find the idea of a stick-out oven stack in the middle of a cabinet run very impractical and odd looking. Is there a reason you're doing separate cooktop and wall oven? That typically takes more space than a range.

Thank you for your feedback marcolo.

You still have tiny prep space, especially with that wall there. At minimum, move the range away from the sink.

What can I say, it is a small space ;) I could move the wall oven(s) beside the fridge and shift the cooktop down the wall but I figure I'll spend more time going between the fridge-sink-cooktop than the fridge-oven-sink.

I could also swap the dishwasher and sink to give a little more counter space in the cooking area.

Thoughts?

I'd give up on the patio doors. You can keep the window, probably, but why not make the window to the left of the fireplace a door? There is no structural difference, both have headers and king studs and such.

Indeed. I agree that the sliding patio door should go and be replaced with windows. Ideally, with a deep enough sill for some plants/herbs. As you note, beside the fireplace is the logical place for a single glass door.

Also, I find the idea of a stick-out oven stack in the middle of a cabinet run very impractical and odd looking. Is there a reason you're doing separate cooktop and wall oven? That typically takes more space than a range.

We want a gas cooktop but every gas range has the knobs on the front. I'm not a fan of that with young children in the house.

The divided workspace (or at least the long counter) would allow me to:
- Keep appliances (toaster, coffee maker, stand mixer, etc) out of the prep areas.
- When baking, it would give me a separate area for kneading, folding, resting, etc. Also, an area for putting things into and out of the oven(s).

Alternatively, try one of those table-against-the-island arrangements to get the seating away from the door (I thought you had that once?)

You have a good memory. About 3 weeks ago when I posted, my drawings had the load-bearing wall completely removed and had the kitchen seating shifted further into the living room. This didn't really work when I put masking tape on the ground and all the images I uploaded in that thread have dissappeared. The table+chairs are a google-sketchup model for me to get an idea of the scale. We're going to look for a narrower table, but the big thing is that we want to be able to extend it in length when people come over. We don't regularly entertain 8 people inside as we recognize the limitations of having a smaller house but it would be nice to be able to do occasionally, even if it is a squeeze.

Indeed. I agree that the sliding patio door should go and be replaced with windows. Ideally, with a deep enough sill for some plants/herbs. As you note, beside the fireplace is the logical place for a single glass door.

I should add, this will also involve moving a basement window (they are in-line with the current windows beside the fireplace).

To summarize (b/c it's spread over several posts):

About you & your family:

• You are a family of 3 (4 in future)

• You & DH cook

• You (& DH?) bake (children certainly will help later!)

Goals/Needs/Wants:

• More counter/work space for prepping, baking, etc. *** #1 ***

• More storage

• A multi-cook kitchen

• More seating (4 everyday/8 occasionally)

• Range/Cooktop/Rangetop with knobs/controls on top or back (i.e., none in the front where curious little hands can play with them!)

What can/cannot change:

• Sliding glass door in Kitchen can be changed to a window

• Wall segment b/w Kitchen and Great Room must stay

Questions:

1. Can the new window (where the sliding glass door used to be) be raised to 3 feet off the floor?

2. Would you consider a banquette?

3. Would you consider swapping the table space and the kitchen-proper?

4. It appears you're willing to move plumbing & gas to get a better functioning kitchen...correct?

Thanks buehl, an excellent summary!

To answer your questions. Everything is on the table at this point. We've bought the house because of its location, the neighbourhood and the great yard we have. We've lived in the house for 8 months, made a list of the things we want to change and are keen to start.

Can the new window (where the sliding glass door used to be) be raised to 3 feet off the floor?

Yes.

Would you consider a banquette?

Yes, but I have not seen many that can readily go from seating 4 to 8 that don't ordinarily feel too big.

Would you consider swapping the table space and the kitchen-proper?

I'll honestly consider anything. In some of my sketches, I've swapped the kitchen an living room ;)

The rear yard is south-west facing so it is wonderful to get the sun in the eating area while eating. It can be -20C outside, but the afternoon/evening sun still warms the rear of the house nicely.

It appears you're willing to move plumbing & gas to get a better functioning kitchen...correct?

Yes. Worst case, we'll need to be a little creative with our ceiling height or the boxed beams for the plumbing stack/hvac.

A few points to add

- We'd rather not alter footprint significantly at this point due to the cost/complexity but changing openings, adding/moving windows/doors, and altering the load-bearing wall is all ok. Complete removal of the wall separating the kitchen/living room wall would be very costly.

- It's a 2 level house, with a full, unfinished basement so we have access to everything from beneath.

- The structure (and floor joists) are shown below (again, it's flipped):

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Thanks again buehl.

Could the wall segment b/w the Great Room and Kitchen be moved "up" or "down" (i.e., be moved somewhere else along the line of where the current wall is)?

What's the maximum span of opening you can have between walls/posts?

Could the wall segment b/w the Great Room and Kitchen be moved "up" or "down" (i.e., be moved somewhere else along the line of where the current wall is)?

Yes

What's the maximum span of opening you can have between walls/posts?

I believe 9-10' but I'll need to check. The larger the opening, the larger the point loads and the more likely we'll need to increase the footings in the basement before an engineer will sign off. There is a vented plumbing stack, plumbing lines, an 2nd-floor HVAC up, 2nd-floor HVAC return, and wiring conduits to hide.

Here are a few sketches with the patio doors removed, the window -> door opening, the DW/sink switched and the wall oven(s) moved.

Issues:
- I did like how the wall ovens divided the 'kitchen' and 'eating' area, but I'm willing to accept that others might disagree with me on this.
- The corner beside the oven(s) is awkward.
- Might feel a little clostrophobic at the sink.

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Hmmm....hiding the HVAC may be an issue. It sounds like you need at least a 24" span of wall in the middle somewhere. That's an issue with the layout I just came up with....

(Only use the "dotted" chairs when you have company. Table expands to fit a total of 8.)

Back to the drawing board! (But probably not tonight...sorry!)

Would 18" be wide enough?

(BTW...that 6" cabinet could be a 6" filler pullout - more storage space than a 6" cabinet.)

Oops...that opening is now only about 99" wide, not 102"

Look at the second pic in the photo stream of this article about "A New England Cottage at Christmas" at "Country Living". It has an over-the-sink dish rack similar to what I was thinking for your kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: A New England Cottage at Christmas

Initial thoughts: I'd really like to try and get the sink (and one prep area, even if it is small) either facing a window or facing the living room. There is no possibility of putting windows on that long wall and I'd rather not have my back to the living room and eating area all the time. Another point, one sink is plenty... counter space is far more important for baking (yes, I could use the table as well).

Would 18" be wide enough?

Possibly. DH has suggested that the support(s) and pipes/etc don't all need to be linear, so if it is narrow, then it may also need to be deep (on the living-room side with a corresponding ceiling drop that would match the beam height.

Here is one of my crazier/earlier drawings, prior to realizing the structural issues with the basement footings and the plumbing/hvac lines.

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Inspiration from:
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Look at the second pic in the photo stream of this article about "A New England Cottage at Christmas" at "Country Living". It has an over-the-sink dish rack similar to what I was thinking for your kitchen.

Unfortunately, a rack such as this would use far more space than necessary and I'm pretty serious about trying to make the most use of the space available. In the same volume as that rack, I could stack almost all of my dishes.

Are you willing to have kitchen stuff spill over to the breakfast area? Or does that area have to be strictly for dining, formal enough for a dinner party?

I ask because the ''kitchen'' area (as labeled in your existing plan, and as conceived in your sketches) is very small (8 x 10) and you are making it smaller yet by choosing a wall oven stack. Thus you have almost no counter space, in the sketches as well as present-day.

Yet there is a sideboard/counter by the breakfast table that doesn't serve much purpose. It is too far from the rest of the kitchen (and the path to/from the refrigerator and sink is rather convoluted) to be convenient for prep, plus you'd be chopping onions and spilling flour right where you're going to be sitting down to eat.

Suppose you placed the refrigerator and pantry cabinets in that area of the wall. These could be integrated and disguised if you wished. There is a good functional argument for placing the refrigerator at the periphery of the kitchen anyway, so that people can fetch milk, juice, cereal, whatever without walking through the core of the cooking/prepping area where there are sharp and boiling things.

That would leave you with considerably more counterspace on the kitchen side. If you used a range instead of cooktop/wall ovens, you will save a lot more space. Something like an Aga 6-4 would give you five burners and multiple ovens in just 36''.

(Kids do grow up in homes with gas ranges - you may have - and their houses hardly ever blow up. Even small children can be taught not to mess with the range. My kids never had the slightest interest in cooking appliances, actually. If you are really concerned, you can always install a gas shutoff somewhere high, or live with an induction range until the kids are older.)

I would put the sink on the wall and use the island for serving/plating and overflow prep. It is close enough to the breakfast table to serve whatever function the sideboard/counter was going to serve (buffet, etc), and you won't be piling dirty dishes right next to the breakfast table and splashing table over the floor. Sinks have backsplashes for a reason, in the current plan the backsplash is the floor and the back of someone's neck.

This all assumes that the ''formal room'' is where you'll have candlelit dinners and so on.

''splashing table'' should read ''splashing water''. Sigh.

Here are my last two for the evening. Same idea as before, but with the wall oven(s), fridge and cooktop re-arranged. This gives two small prep areas (26" wide) on either side of the cooktop. The down-side is the 'long' walk to the fridge (I'd swap the handle to a right-side hinge).

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this is not about your layout, but can you reveal what is the source of your inspiration pictures #2 and #3?

thanks

Abistew,
i really like Buehl's design where you have an open L that overlaps the dining area. This allows you to live "big" in a small house. By having a larger dining area, you can have 8 people on the table. Your design with an island gives you the kitchen function but takes away from the house function in that the rooms get chopped up. Buehl's idea is essentially your first crazy idea without the "island/table" and the sink moved to the wall.

I have lived/dined in both kinds of small houses where the rooms are chopped up and you can't seat more than 4 at a time OR you lose a bit from the kitchen but you can have a larger group of people by moving furniture around, ie Bueuhl's design. For entertaining Buehl's works better. For daily life, the one with the island may work better. As I get older, I prefer (need) the option of having people over for dinner comfortably. One's needs change as one's life changes.

This may not be your long term home and the island design may work for you better when you and the kids are younger. I see advantages and disadvantages to both.

As your group of people get bigger, ie families come over not just single person or couples, it is nice to be able to seat them all together, IMHO. If you have 2 kids and you invite one family with 2 kids over, that is "voila" 8 people.

I personally prefer more contiguous counter surface than Buehl. I would not do the corner sink or the separate oven/cooktop. I work differently from Beuhl. I NEED the surface. I spread too much when I am baking/cooking etc. I made tarte tartine with my son tonight and everything was pulled out and I ended up rolling the dough on the smallest surface I have!

Pay attention to how you work and what works best for you. The guidelines are exactly that, guidelines. You know yourself best.

efs, see the link below regarding my inspiration photos.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jennifer Gilmer Kitchens

The problem I see with the island is that it doesn't give you adequate or optimal prep space. You have a small piece of real estate to try to incorporate both the Prep Zone and the Cleanup Zone.

The reason I put the corner sink in is that you want to be able to have more than one person working in the kitchen...and with the constraints you've put on us (cooktop, not range; seating for eight; etc.), it makes it more difficult. If you had a range, for example, you'd gain another 30+ inches in counterspace and things could be situated differently.

I understand about not wanting to prep with your back to people, but that island is not only not wide enough, but it's not really deep enough to allow you to effectively and "safely" work there. You run the risk of knocking things off the island from the sink (b/c there's virtually no space behind it) and the sides (b/c it really isn't wide enough to be much more than a small Cleanup Zone).

Your decision to not have a range b/c of your children is an issue in such a small space (small b/c of how much you want to put in it). If you had plenty of space, I'd say fine. But you have a small space and I think planning a kitchen around a few short years when your children are young may be a mistake b/c of how it's affecting your layout. Knobs can be removed when not in use. Many appliances have child locks, including some gas ranges (for example, GE Profile PGB975SEMSS...manual says "...Gas/Control Lockout...control will allow you to lock out the surface burners, oven burners and control panel so they cannot be activated....").

Yes, you can squeeze everything in with the island and seating...but it won't be comfortable. You need adequate aisles around the table as well as b/w counters and b/w the table and counter.

In your current designs, you still have the issue of only enough room for one person...you still have the sink and/or DW opposite the range...the situation you have now and don't like.

If you really want that island, then you need to seriously consider the banquette idea so you have more room. to work with not only for aisle width but also to possibly allow room for the island.

You're not alone, we've all been there...wanting to "have it all" regardless of our space limitations and other constraints. However, we all have to eventually come to the realization that we have to make compromises. To that end, please think long & hard about what are your true "needs" vs "wants". Needs you can't live without; wants you can compromise on either by eliminating or changing to meet reality.

I need to go to bed...I'll think on it more tomorrow.

Correction - the range I mentioned should have been the Aga Legacy.

Also, I remembered that there are child safety knobs that you can put on ranges. Some ranges have knobs that can simply be removed, leaving the metal shaft that is too hard for a child to turn. And, there are always toddler gates.

Some of the above sounds unattractive, but it's only temporary. Shame to spend decades living in a Playskool house in order to ''childproof'' a house for 1 year.

So there weren't many who were supportive of my little island so....

Here is one that is a little more conventional and probably more functional. I'm still not going to put the sink against the window-less wall and I realize that I can get a little more counter space if I put the oven(s) in the lower cabinets (I'm still pondering the pros/cons of this). I appreciate the comments thus far (both good and bad) and look forward to reading any additional thoughts you all have.

Notes:
- Does anyone have any comments/thoughts on the location of the fridge? I cannot think of a way to move it closer to the U.
- There will need to be some creative routing of plumbing/HVAC which may require dropping the 8' ceiling height or the addition of a bulkhead (beyond what I've drawn for the beam). Perhaps a soffit?
- It will likely require re-inforcing the foundation in the basement at the post.
- I may need to add a 6-8" deep shoulder wall for support on the wall with the window, door and fireplace but I don't think it will impead the table placement for ordinary seating of 4 (and I'm willing to be a little inconvienienced those nights when there are 8).
- I could put a narrow (one-sided pull-out pantry) against the wall and shift the fridge down a little (at the expensve of counter space).

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I like that a whole lot better. Much more useful counter. More room in the kitchen. Someone can cook at the range, or prep at the sink, without blocking a whole aisle.

The refrigerator - it is kind of far away, I had sort of thought of it being where the wall ovens are now. I guess that's only 30'' difference, but with a more realistically-sized table and bodies sprawled in chairs pushed out and around, it might be hard to get ''past'' the table to the refrigerator.

Do you need double wall ovens? How about a single wall oven, under the cooktop (and under the hood, which can be nice). Then the refrigerator can be where the ovens are, and pantry and/or dish storage where the refrigerator is.

Thanks johnliu.

Do you need double wall ovens? How about a single wall oven, under the cooktop (and under the hood, which can be nice). Then the refrigerator can be where the ovens are, and pantry and/or dish storage where the refrigerator is.

I really do like to bake and when I do, it is usually enough to stock the basement freezer for a few weeks. That being said, this might need to be one of my concessions.

As far as the table goes, we currently have a round 43" pedistal table that expands to seat 8. The above is not too far off for scale.

To me, it looks like I might be able to keep the glass door in the kitchen, if I were to put it adjacent to the fridge. I realize this might not be ideal, but then I wouldn't loose the basement window (1 of 2 in the entire basement) if I move the door beside the fireplace. That being said, I think the door beside the fireplace makes more sense for the flow of the house... so many decisions.

I agree with John's points. This last plan looks much more user friendly, family friendly, company friendly.

One issue I see: I had a sink once that we put up against a corner like you have drawn. I found it rather uncomfortable to work at, like I was stuck in the corner. What if you put the DW under the long run of counter? Then the sink could slide toward the eating area a bit more. If you wanted more counter space on the eating area side, I suppose you could put a corner sink in, but that might not meet your goal of not looking at a wall adequately.

Forgive me if you answered this already, but can the kitchen window on the wall where the fireplace is be moved up to counter height? If so, you could turn this into a U or G shaped kitchen with a table in the middle. When there are dinner guests, the table could expand outward into the living room area. Maybe it's too narrow with the plumbing stack, though. . .

Much better, although I don't like the location of the sink. I agree with laughable that you will not feel "part of the action" but stuck in a corner, except I think scooching the sink a few inches won't help. The kitchen will function and look much better with the sink on the long counter run.

Also, I just can't get over the idee fixe about the gas range. The built-in locks make a hideous buzzing noise if anyone touches the controls, while rendering the controls inactive. Astonishingly, my siblings and I all grew up with a gas range that not only had no locks, but required that one light it with a match. The house only exploded and killed us all exactly, let me see, oh yeah, zero times, which is an experience shared only by everyone I've ever met in my life.

Anyway, it did occur to me how you could put a big island in that kitchen, but I don't think it's worth it--you could get 2-sided island seating but never a table, and I can't see that meeting your needs.

The refrigerator is an issue...you need approx 12" b/w it and the wall to allow you to open it fully for cleaning or removing bins.

You could switch the tall oven cabinet & refrigerator, but I don't think I'd like the ovens against the wall either. Even for the ovens, you'll need filler b/w the wall and tall cabinet...enough to clear the window trim & sill.

I think it is time for a little range porn. And it is even sexier in black.

44'' wide, 6 burners, broiler chamber, convection oven, ''multi-function'' oven and enough safety features to defeat the little saboteur aka child -

''Each burner has a special safety device that stops the ï¬Âow of gas if the ï¬Âame goes out.''

''When the key lock is activated, the clock can be operated as usual but the ovens are locked and will not come on. This means that your child
could select a cook program but the program will not be activated and ovens will not switch on.''

Unfortunately, I find Aga's particularly impractical for baking. I long for a pair of modern, wide ovens but we'll see what is left in the budget once the structural aspects are addressed. I'm also not that keen on the commercial clones... I'm sure they are great in a restaurant but I'm just not that into them for a home. My 'big concession' would be to put my oven(s) under the cooktop ;)

The kitchen will function and look much better with the sink on the long counter run

That may be a lesson for the school of hard knocks as I'm really not keen to put it there. How about some 'sink porn' where there are no windows to look out, your back is to your guests, and the only natural light casts shadows in the washing area.

Also, I just can't get over the idee fixe about the gas range. The built-in locks make a hideous buzzing noise if anyone touches the controls, while rendering the controls inactive. Astonishingly, my siblings and I all grew up with a gas range that not only had no locks, but required that one light it with a match. The house only exploded and killed us all exactly, let me see, oh yeah, zero times, which is an experience shared only by everyone I've ever met in my life

And in Botswana, people still use biomass stoves.

A few other thoughts:

- Moving the DW and shifting the sink to the end of the cabinet is another option. My only concern is that this makes it difficult to wash linearly (i.e. dirty on one side and clean on the other). I do like that I'll have clearance for one person to be at the sink and another to be at the stove or prep areas simultaneously.

- As far as the fridge location, I'll sneak a pantry in on the side so that I can get clearance and some storage.

- Moving the ovens against the wall (and beside the fridge) also means there is no counter within easy reach which is a problem. I'll draw up one or two with the ovens below the counter and see what I think.

So here are the revisions. I've left the sink/DW where they were for the moment. There's a single oven, below the cooktop... it almost looks like a range ;)

We're going to send this out to a structural engineer next week along with the existing plans and get some revised plans.

Thanks again for all the advice.

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Is there any reason all the dirties couldn't go immediately to the right of the sink on the long counter along with the dirties from the stove area? It's only a couple steps farther from the table. Just a thought. . .

I understand and respect your desire for the safety features on your stove. I can also vouch for the fact that little ones grow quickly. My oldest is 10 and already uses the stovetop and oven regularly. She makes fantastic eggs, pasta, homemade bread, cookies, bars, you name it. Before long you may have another cook to vie for space with!

OK, this might be too weird, but a mirror of some kind along the long wall could let you see the action behind you and still get the sink on that stretch of counter.

I like it.

Consider dishdrawers, they can work better in a tight space.

How is an Aga 6-4 impractical? Are the ovens a weird size? A 6-4 is not a British-style cooker--it's an American style range. that you turn off or on just like a Kenmore or Viking.

Would that sink and bookcase unit all be covered with the same countertop material? I think that could look really cool.

Palimpsest just posted this on the cranky thread. It's a mirror behind the sink area, like the wacky idea I posted the other day, so I guess it's not all that wacky if it's something that would help your kitchen work well for you.