I think you need a peek at the appliance forum. The people there are quite knowledgeable and detail oriented. It may make your decision paralysis worse, but you will have great access to their collected wisdom.

dianalo -- good idea, thanks. I have been searching and lurking on the appliance forum, but haven't posted this dilemma there. Perhaps I will cross post.

JGS,
KA has a rebate going on now where you get a rebate that depends on the number of KA appliances you select. We did a Ref, Pro Range, Dishwasher, and Bev Ref and are getting a rebate of $850...something to consider!

Not sure what you mean by "Kitchenaids supposedly blow up when the self-clean function is used". I have had KAid double convection wall ovens- Architect Series- for 11 years. I use self-cleaning all the time and have never had a problem. Cleans beautifully. In fact never had a problem with either oven as long as I've had them and would buy them again in a minute.

Patty -- I guess "blow up" is an exaggeration -- but I have seen numerous mentions of problems with the electronics in KA ovens failing when the self-clean function is used. I am so glad to hear that your experience has been different. Do you have other KA appliances?

Your comments may support my theory that some of the bad rap for KA ovens has to do with reporting bias -- where someone is more likely to post/discuss a negative experience than an experience where an appliance simply performs as expected.

I have an earlier version of the KitchenAid Architect dual fuel slide-in range. We've had it for about 7 years. My only gripe is that I can not get the burners to go low enough for a slow simmer. From poking around the internet, I think this is something a lot of people were unhappy with so maybe it has been addressed in newer models.

As for reliability, we've had no major problems until recently. I can't remember what exactly had to be replaced but it was about a $500 repair. Yikes! We live in an area that has LOTS of power surges and flickers which is very hard on all our electronics. According to the repairman this was probably what caused our problem.

I've only used the self-clean function a few times but I've never had a problem with it.

I have 3 KA appliances - fridge, DW, and compactor and I'm very pleased with them but from all I've read, I'd stay away from KA ranges. If it were me, I'd go with a Bosch all gas range - less electronics to worry about. I'd also recommend you get a real vent hood, not an OTR.

Extended warranties are no substitute for buying an unreliable appliance. Yes, it will save you the cost of the repair but you'll still have to put up with the appliance failing, wating for a service call, waiting for the parts to arrive, etc.

@weissman -- thanks for the vote; do you mean the freestanding Bosch (all-gas) range (not the "splurge" dual fuel)?

I expect that most people on GW would recommend the hood over the OTR MW, but we've weighed the pros and cons and decided on the OTR, based on space/layout considerations, and how we cook here. I know it's not ideal, but we've got to work with the limitations of our space, and we've had OTR microwaves for 17 years (to make it worse -- it was only vented outside in 1 of our 3 houses) and never had a major issue.

Thanks for looking out for me though - I do appreciate your feedback (as well as everyone else's!)

I had a separate cooktop / wall oven for years, so the last time I cooked on a range the oven controls were in the front. I didn't like the thought of having to put my arm over a hot pot on the stove to control the oven, especially with the new center burners. I have no regrets on my decision to go with a slide-in, even with the extra cost involved.

I missed the part about the OTR microwave or I would've added this above. We have an OTR microwave above our KA range and I have not liked it. (Thankfully, we're getting a hood in our renovation.)

I rarely use the back burners on the range because the heat they put out (even on low) causes the microwave exhaust fan to automatically kick in. Always. I suppose that's what's supposed to happen but I find it really annoying. But maybe that's just me.

One caveat, our OTR microwave is REALLY old so perhaps the newer ones are less sensitive than mine.

My 2 cents about the SS top. Last range was SS with a black top and as I live in an area that's very dusty and it never looked clean. We have a GE Cafe slide-in AG now that we are very happy with, with a SS top that seems to look cleaner even though we are without a hood for now.

Gotta weigh in on the Kitchenaid self-cleaning function...personal experience. Yes, it's true that there may be no more problems with KA than with others. But the self-cleaning problem is a KNOWN issue (well-reported here and, as I said, I know from personal experience and my sister's experience).

The problem with the self-cleaning is that a fuse used in the oven (called a thermofuse, I believe) is very unreliable in withstanding the superhot temps needed for self-cleaning. I had my oven for 8 years and used the self-cleaning function sparingly, but used it with no problems, until a few days before the inspection on the sale of that house. Ran the self-cleaning cycle and thought nothing of it. Inspector comes...says we can't turn the oven on. You guessed it, that's when it burned out the fuse. It cost, I think something in the neighborhood of $150 to replace. Some fuses won't ever burn out. Some will. (MY sister had the same oven and blew out three). You can't tell and you can't tell when it will happen. If you NEVER use the self-cleaning function, then the oven is fine (although I will say, I never thought mine cooked very evenly even with the convection function). But don't count on a warranty to cover you on the fuse problem. It can work just fine until the day after your warranty runs out. BTW...you should have seen the blackened area around the fuse, when the repairman opened the oven up. A little scary really. And, it's fairly expensive to replace because the oven needs to be pulled out to do it.

Thanks, melissa -- you're right that it's probably not wise to rely entirely on the warranty. We've all likely had that one car or appliance with the mysterious countdown timer that causes problems to start happening as soon as the warranty runs.

Anyone have experience with or opinions on the Bosch units?

I was told by my GC who is a retired electrical engineer that you should never use the self clean function in any brand oven. That there are sensitive components that will burn out, fuses etc.
My understanding is that the KA fuse issue has been resolved, but I'm not going to use my self clean.

stacieann, the repairman who fixed mine said more or less the same thing....that they fixed all brands all the time (though he agreed KA was worse). According to him, residential ovens simply weren't made to withstand the high temps but that manufacturers made them anyway because consumers demanded the self-cleaning feature. He said that the insulation needed to protect the fuses would have to be much greater (and more expensive) than what is standardly put in the ovens to ensure that the fuses didn't burn out.

melissastar and stacieann -good points; I guess I am glad that I am too frugal to run the self-clean on my oven.

Question: if I am going to (continue to) avoid using self-clean, should I not rule out the Kitchenaid slide-in?

If I stick with the Bosch - any opinions as to whether the slide-in, true convection, dual fuel, temperature probe, and warming drawer are "worth" a $1300 upcharge for the higher end range.

Our kitchen is almost finished - missing a backsplash and some moldings - and includes a Bosch Integra Dual Fuel Range HDI7282U, Bosch Microhood Combination HMV8051U, and Bosch Dishwasher SHX45P0. So far we are very happy, though we're having a bit of trouble getting the electric oven calibrated exactly right. We almost bought the KitchenAid slide in range but turned away after reading the same reviews. We knew we wanted a slide in for the look. I will say that it cost a few hundred dollars to run the 220 line for the electric oven since we only had gas prior to that this, and that was an unwelcome surprise. The range has been great as has the microwave and dishwasher so far.
My kitchen has only been operational for about two weeks, but I'd be glad to answer specific questions if I can. Oh, and I did GREAT on prices at Sears. They beat AJ Madison and everyone else and gave me free delivery. On a Sears card I was able to get another 5% off. Good luck!

I have a 30" gas/convection Frigidaire Professional range. It has a black top and I don't really have a problem w/ cleanliness. I wipe it after dinner every night and that's it. I really like the look and plan on keeping it in our new remodel, albeit with a hood instead of our current OTR mic. (also Frigidaire)

We bought the same KA slide-in as the one you listed in your OP, it's not installed yet but will be next week. I read the bad reviews but do not like to use the self clean feature ever and a lot of the complaints were for older KA ovens so decided to buy it anyway.

We also choose th KA Kude70 DW as I think it's only second to Miele, and most of the reviews are great. We went with all KA appliances as over all the reviews were good and we were able to save about 35% off due to sale here in Canada.

Thanks, hungryheart -- I remembered that you had the Bosch set -- I think I was probably peppering you with questions about their performance before you had the wrappers off (and I still had your kitchen pics clipped to show how lovely a cherry kitchen with light wood floors can look!)

Now that you've had time to settle in with the Bosch units, I'm curious to hear what your impression of the micro-hood exhaust vent is (is the quiet enough, does it move enough air?) (Yes, everyone -- I know a OTR micro-hood is not ideal, but that's what we've decided on.)

Also, have you used the convection feature on the microwave? How was its performance?

Likewise, how was the convection in the range (if you've used it)?

Not sure if we would have to run an additional 220 line for dual fuel here, but I'll take that into consideration.

@Burghmom -- I really liked the specs and the appearance of the Frigidaire Professional slide-in, but when we went to see it this weekend, my DH and I were both turned off by the "chicken nuggets" button. (Pardon the pun.) I know it's small-minded -- I just couldn't get past it. :)

I have love my Bosch DW, dual fuel range, SbyS refrig.
Here is a link to my opinion on my Bosch Range
The good, the bad and funny.
~boxerpups

Bosch Dishwashers GW past post
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0412550928500.html

Bosch Range GW past post
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0520284613469.html

What I love about my Bosch dual fuel Integra 700...

the heavy grates. You can put them in the Bosch dishwasher to clean them.
the large knobs
the convection, the dehydration,
the telescope racks pull out very far
the warming drawer
the quick convection broil, or conv bake or just regular bake.
the fast boil burners
the time cook plan and the auto on or off.
the super clean function
the speed heat,how fast the oven warms up

What I DON'T like:

the gas on glass feature. (glass is a pain to clean because
you have to contend with the burners and clean around
each one. Terrible design. And if you get the white cleaner
in the burner it can damage it.)

BUT, the sealed burners are wonderful. If you have ever
had food boil over onto a burner you know too well the
horror that is to clean. When hot melted velvetta cheese
boils over because your dimwit daughter wasn't paying
attention the cheese does not ruin the burner. The
sealed burner just burns off the ugly and works great.

My daughter never has to worry about boiling over velvetta
cheese again because Bosch has this cool opti simmer
burner. It doesn't boil over. Well, lets just say she can
text, listen to music and be distracted from cooking
and the cheese has not boiled over yet.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bosch Range GW past post

Thanks, boxer -- how did I NOT find that thread when I was searching the forums before?

Your Bosch range and dishwasher reviews are so helpful. Your description of your daughter boiling over the velveeta is one that truly made this mother of teen boys chuckle! (Of course, they are so responsible, I am sure they would NEVER do such a thing! ;))

I think we are leaning towards the Bosch dual fuel slide-in. Fingers crossed!

@Hungryheart -- hoping you'll see this thread again, I have one final question. In the picture of your kitchen that you posted (when debating about your hardware) was the Bosch range not pushed back fully to the wall? It looked like it was sticking out a bit, and I wondered if it was that deep, or simply not pushed all the way back (it still had wrapping in that picture, if I recall.)

BTW, what hardware did you end up with?

This is interesting because I just got back from Sears where I bought the Bosch slide in dual fuel range (and they beat AJ Madison's price)!

This might sound silly, but one of the deciding features for me was the fact that the power burner is on the right whereas on the KA it is on the left.

It looked like the KA had one power burner, one medium-sized burner and two "wimpy" burners. The Bosch appeared to have one power burner, two medium-sized burners and one "wimpy" burner. I anticipate that my husband might complain about "wimpy" burners.

Also, I like the fact that the Bosch grates appear to be one continuous unit, but really, they break apart and can go in the dish washer. The KA "instawok" feature looks like something that will get on my nerves.

Thanks, mcmjilly -- I will definitely take a look at Sears for the Bosch unit. The only downside is that there is a 10% rebate if you buy 3+ Bosch appliances (we're getting range, OTR MW, and DW) but it doesn't apply to Sears (or the big box stores).

However, it's worth a shot -- Sears's price might be better even with the rebate. If you don't mind me asking -- did you bring in the AJMadison print out or just ask them for the price?

jgs - The fan on the micro/convection works well. I have not yet used the convection feature on either oven. As noted above, I also bought all three appliances at Sears along with my LG frig. They will only beat prices on "brick and mortar" stores, though, as it happened, they beat AJMadison anyway because some of the stores had better sales. They will look up your local stores to check prices (though you should come prepared too) - Best Buy, PC Richard, Lowes, etc.

As for the stove sticking out, it does stick out a bit. I am reposting the photo that you referred to. I believe the angle of the photo makes it appear worse than it actually is. There is a piece of granite behind the cooktop that is about an inch and a half (I don't have a tape measure handy.) I'm thinking that the cooktop cannot go all the way back to the wall for safety reasons though I don't really know if that's true. I do not find it obtrusive; I think the stove is set right. (If not - no one tell me, please!) Both the contractor (who I trust) and the granite fabricator said it should be this way.

The only complaints that I have thus far is that the black glass attracts a lot of dust and that we have had to fiddle a bit with calibrating the oven. We think we have it right now (the instructions allow for a plus/minus 25 degree adjustment) but I think I am going to call Bosch in to check it. As an aside, we bought the 3 year Sears warranty for all of the big appliances - not the micro/convection.

I wasn't sure if I would like the big grates but I love them! And I did keep the chunky/clunky brushed nickel hardware. Everyone has been complimenting them; they look great next to the SS appliances and especially the stove with the clunky knobs.

And Boxer ... how did I miss your original post about this range too????? I searched and searched while I was choosing appliances. Weird!

In looking at the photo, I just realize that you can't see the granite piece in the back. The edge of the cooktop lines up exactly with the adjacent countertop. The front protrudes in the same way that the front of my french door frig protrudes in front of the cabinetry. Hope that makes sense!

It should be noted that I don't have a backsplash installed yet - largely because I have not chosen tile yet!

Oh! There IS one more thing that slightly annoys me!!! The digital clock on the micro/convection is red and it is green on the oven. What were they thinking?

I didn't pull out the AJ Madison price. I went to Sears when things were quiet and mentioned that I needed to "talk to my husband" because the Bosch was over budget. I think the sales guy was worried that I'd come back and buy the range from a different sales person. So, he met my budget.

(It was sort of like buying a car.)

@Hungryheart -- one final question (I swear) -- do you feel like you have enough clearance between the OTR MW and the raised grates on the Bosch slide-in?

I am looking at our plan, and the KD has the microwave flush with the bottom of the cabinets. I am thinking that -- if we go with the slide-in with raised grates -- we should raise the OTR MW up a little bit to get that additional clearance space. I see that your MW is raised slightly higher than flush with the bottom of the cabinets. Was that intentional to account for the raised grates?

Thanks again!

jgs: You can ask as many questions as you'd like! :)
We have plenty of clearance but that was not by design. In fact, I never thought about it until you just mentioned it and I went to look. The raised MW was not by design; the KD did it that way and I never questioned it. However, I could see how it might be a bit tight if it were flush with the cabinets. The top of the grates measure roughly 2 3/4 inches above the glass cooktop. I would suggest you take your highest stockpot and measure the space you'd have from the bottom of the MR.

As an aside, I used the convection in the oven (not MR) for the first time last night. I was very pleased with the result. Disclaimer: I've never cooked with a convection before.

What do you guys think about condition of federal prison, how they are suffering from problems not getting enough facilities. I read in a article about it and must say that federal prison in CA are going from a rough time cause govt is not providing funds for running it.

Here is a link that might be useful: federal prisons in california