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pdanco

Kitchen in early 18th century house

Patricia Danco
10 years ago

Hello all,
We have been living in and restoring an old stone house (circa 1715) for the past 20 years. We remodeled the kitchen shortly after we moved in, while on a tight budget, and have never been happy with it. Our contractor used garbage cabinets (Yorktowne...stay away!), which I have painted a few times. The countertop is formica, stainless sink, etc. We do have newer, good appliances. Retirement time is coming, and we'd like to stay just another three years, and then put the house on the market. We're in a rural area in NJ (yes, they still exist), surrounded by farms and expensive homes. We, however, are not amongst the wealthy. So, here's our dilemma. Our house is decorated to period, and I'd like to remodel the kitchen, also to period, for our enjoyment, and to up the resale value of the house. Is this a smart move? I plan on keeping it simple, and my son would do some of the work (he's a builder, but we'd still pay him...at a discount). The prices for cabinets, even in HD or Lowes, have blown me away! Also tried Cliqstudios, and they came in even higher! I would guess we would have to spend a minimum of $30,000, which we would put on our line of credit (house is paid for, but like many, we had hoped to sell it for our retirement fund and buy cheaper). Advice anyone?

Comments (18)

  • 2ajsmama
    10 years ago

    You won't get period (and probably wouldn't want it unless you like hearth cooking LOL) but here is some inspiration:

    Here is a link that might be useful: Oldhouse's new kitchen

  • ineffablespace
    10 years ago

    Old House Magazine also publishes a magazine called something like Early Houses focusing on first American period houses and they had an article on kitchens where they said that almost any "compatible" approach is okay, because there is really no actual historical kitchen other than the open hearth, for a house this old. Some suggested approaches;

    A completely "hidden" kitchen where all appliances are integrated , and anything modern is camouflaged or very discrete.

    A presumptive period kitchen (they used a different term) --but essentially a kitchen from the period that it was likely that the first modern kitchen was put in. With this approach the kitchen might look Edwardian era, and the relative modesty or elaborateness of the kitchen would relate to the modesty or elaborateness of the rest of the house.

    A discreet but clearly current kitchen in terms of appliances and such, but with materials that are sympathetic with the other materials in the rest of the house.

    What they advised against were clearly historic styles of kitchens that had a too strong identity rooted in another style. A high 1950s kitsch kitchen, or a strict Arts and Crafts style kitchen, for example, would not be considered sympathetic to the rest of the house.

    Other suggestions that they had were that the kitchen and bath be in an addition that was separate from the historic fabric of the house. I looked at a house that had been built in 1810 that used this approach. The kitchen and bath were in a back addition.

  • ineffablespace
    10 years ago

    If you look at dollars spent for a kitchen remodel vs increased selling price of the house, the return on investment is not 100% so you Lose money on a kitchen remodel.

    However, this does not take into account factors such as whether the house is more likely to sell with a new kitchen.
    My personal experience was with a bathroom, but given the condition of the unremodeled bathroom (in a one bathroom house) vs. the rest of the house, the existing bathroom was a strong Negative to potential buyers. I remodeled the bathroom, my return on the investment was zero dollars, it added nothing to the sale price of the house, but it needed that new bath to sell.

    If you are going to be there a very short time and the kitchen is not really for you, but for the next owner, I think you may be better off making sure it is in decent repair (replace any bad hinges etc) and in good cosmetic shape. The potential problem in remodeling a kitchen for Sale is that you are doing it for Sale and you may not be interested in spending the money that might be necessary to put the best sort of kitchen in the house to Live with.

    My current house had a bath and kitchen clearly put in just to put the house on the market, and I knew when I made the offer that the virtually new bath was going to be gutted when I had the opportunity. The seller did the minimum they needed to. I am not saying You would go this far, but even in my own case, I put in a decent quality bathroom, better than a lot of baths in the comps. but it still was Not the bath I would have put in were I Staying in the houseI sold to buy my current one. Does this make sense?

    Ultimately you have to get an opinion from several Realtors, or a Realtor whose opinion you trust. They will know what the prevailing attitude is in your market.

  • lazy_gardens
    10 years ago

    "The prices for cabinets, even in HD or Lowes, have blown me away!"

    Look into having them built by a local cabinetmaker - it's often less expensive then generic Big Box.

    The only truly "period" kitchen would be a huge hearth and a spit-dog running in a cage. A simple late Victorian through 1930s influenced kitchen without a lot of the current "WOW" would blend nicely. Something the family might have added when electricity and piped water arrived.

    Gaudy granite, ornate moldings, glaze over paint, and blingy backsplash tile would look out of place.

    Those years had "shaker" style cabinets (paint, or stained), plain or nearly plain stone or wood counters; lots of square or subway tile on wainscoting, walls and backsplashes; soapstone or fireclay apron front sinks, linoleum flooring.

    You can add open shelving, the "unfitted" look with hutches and a work table instead of an island, and even a breakfast nook without getting into chronologically strange areas.

    The color schemes were occasionally awesome: look at antiquehomestyle.com for ads of the era, what the kitchen-obsessed were installing in small private homes.

    Take your time, collect lots of pictures, and check out LOTS of options. Make a really detailed plan up front so you can compare options and shop for the best look for the buck. For almost any given "look" there will be adequate products at almost any price point. The trick is to use them for what they do to the kitchen as a whole, not because they are outstanding all by themselves. (no divas, you want a good team)

  • crl_
    10 years ago

    I would echo the advice to talk to local realtors. They are the experts in your particular location on what sells a house and for what price. I think often you don't necessarily get all of your money back, but again, as a previous poster said, you sell much faster. That was our experience in a bad seller's market where a lot of houses sat (and ultimately sold for less money as the market declined while they sat).

    If you decide to proceed with a remodel, I suggest looking at ikea cabinets. The stat style might work for you. Ikea cabinets are great bang for the buck. Also using open shelving in lieu of some or all of your uppers could be a reasonable style choice in your house and cost-effective.

  • my_four_sons
    10 years ago

    If you live in an area with expensive homes, most likely you will be getting buyers looking for a totally upgraded kitchen. If you put in a cheap kitchen, they will see it as a negative and factor in the cost of a kitchen remodel in their offer.

    I would never take out a line of credit to put in a kitchen when you are facing retirement. It's just doesn't make financial sense.

  • babushka_cat
    10 years ago

    Talk with local realtors but from what you state, I would leave it as is and sell it as is. I am shopping for a house now and have passed on several, largely due to the unpermitted cheap kitchens, marketed as "remodelled". I would much rather remodel myself, to my tastes than pay a premium for a supposed remodel that was done on the cheap, without permits and will just need to be torn out and redone.

  • californiagirl
    10 years ago

    Realtors can also tell you if your house, not just your kitchen, is likely to be a gut job for the next owner, suitable for remodeling with a major addition. Your description of the area and the fact that you are in a state, let alone an area, with expensive homes (how expensive and large relative to yours?), suggests to me that the value of your property may be more in the land and the historic stone shell. This is especially true if your lot is large enough and zoning permits a much larger home.

    This does not mean that you will not get top dollar when you sell, only that the buyer may have no intention of living in the house as it is now, regardless of the kitchen finishes. If your house is ripe for a major overhaul and enlargement, then of course you need not spend money updating your kitchen.

  • Patricia Danco
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thanking everyone again for the advice. I wouldn't, under any circumstances, put in a cheap kitchen and spoil the integrity of the house. We have spent the last 20 years bringing it back to its former glory, so to install a crummy kitchen would never enter my mind! My thinking was to keep it very simple and tasteful, without spending a fortune. As I shop, I'm completely turned off by the finish of the big box cabinets I'm seeing, as they're way too shiny for this house. The problem I'm having is that the rest of the house is beautiful, but since we put the kitchen in when we first moved here, when we were on a tight budget, it just doesn't cut it in this area of very expensive homes. I had thought using a line of credit, since the house is paid for, might be wise, as it could be paid back as soon as we sell the house. Also, since the house is so very old, and unique (think hardly any closet space and Jersey winder stairs), it will appeal to a very select few. We plan on moving to a much less expensive state, so it wouldn't make a huge difference to our budget, but might help sell the house. All of your comments are what I have been bantering back and forth in my head...don't spend the money with retirement looming, make sure it's good quality and appropriate to the house, do spend the money to make it more sellable, etc., etc.! My head is spinning! Also, I was a realtor in this area for years, so I do know what's out there. I guess it's the "little frog in a big pond" problem. We've been here for so long, and have seen so many changes, that it's hard to fit our heads around it. What was, and I guess still is, farm country, now has high-end sub-divisions scattered where the fields once stood. Our taxes are so high that we can't even think about staying here, even though we were both born and raised in NJ. I just want to make sure that when we sell, we get the most we can for our very much loved home.
    Anyway...I'm ranting, so I'll just thank you all. This is going to be a tough decision!

  • marymac91
    10 years ago

    You can get great deals at Lowe's when they have their holiday sales. So you might save 10-20% off of what you are currently being quoted.

    If you are being quoted $30,000 , what is the square footage? That sounds like a really high number.

    I put in Schuler quartersawn oak shaker cabinets from Lowe's and the price on Memorial day and other major holidays is very low.

    I'd also check out the local builders as recommended.

    you can also try justcabinets.com in PA. They carry Medallion, which is the same as Schuler's.

    you can also try greendemolitions.com in Fairfield NJ.

    I'd go with either a slab or shaker style, with cup pulls.
    Shaker is later style, but I would opt for simplicity.
    I'd either go for painted or quarter sawn oak.

    Bigger cabinets cost less than smaller ones per linear length. So if you can use 36" cabinets, I'd go for it.

    Drawers cost more than doors, but are so much better.

    You might be able to save some money by having some shelves instead of upper cabinets.

  • californiagirl
    10 years ago

    Patti,

    You haven't said anything about the size of your lot or the square footage of your home, especially relative to your evolving market. If you were in the business, you probably have some idea of what is happening to historic properties in your area. Are they being bought and extensively remodeled?

    As an old home owner and lover myself, I know it is very hard to even think about somebody tinkering with your authentic restored interior. But putting in a charming updated kitchen will not necessarily discourage the next owner from changing the stairs, removing walls and adding closets or installing a sleek 21st century kitchen before he or she even moves in.

    It happens regularly in my historic city neighborhood, especially with younger buyers. Who is buying in your area?

    californiagirl (in the Midwest)

  • plllog
    10 years ago

    In your situation, especially if the workflow of the kitchen is decent and the current appliances don't look bad, I'd put in beautiation rather than a new kitchen. Was the room originally the kitchen? If so, is there a hearth? If you put some period-look accessories there, cast iron andirons, old ash bucket, etc., and paint the walls an appropriate color, that will go a long way. If there's any open wall space, that's also a good opportunity to take down your personal things and hang some old impedimenta. A bit of harness. Some cooking implements. Put in an accent light fixture that looks period appropriate. These "antiques" can be reproductions, and can be anything that looks like it predates WWI.

    Give the old cabinets a fresh coat of milk paint, with some distressing, so that the underlayers of paint show where they would be worn, giving an instant hit of "history" to to the room. Change the Formica to one of the new slate look ones. Use an unexpected, period possible textile. Cushions or a valence or something. Something colorful, bright and fun.

    If you're feeling more energetic, you can also take the doors off the upper cabinets for an open shelving look, or even take down the cabinets, fix up the walls and put in chunky board shelves. You can go a step farther and replace some lower cabinets with an old sideboard.

    If there's room, put a beat up old farm table in the middle.

    I really think you can get a feel that works with the house with an investment of $1-2K in set dressing and some creativity, rather than going into debt over a new kitchen, which, inevitably, the new owners will tear out because it doesn't have a beer tap, baking station, or kimchi fridge, or because they really want a Pedini kitchen and all the magazines say it's okay to put a sleek, Modern Italian kitchen in a very old house. The point is to make the kitchen feel like it belongs to the house rather than being a jarring let down. You can sell a house with, "Obviously, the kitchen will need to be redone," as you know, if you can keep it from looking like it doesn't belong in the house at all.

    And when it comes time to sell, bake some kind of antique recipe instead of chocolate chip cookies. :) (Or buy blueberry tarts and reheat them...)

  • Patricia Danco
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Californiagirl - we have 3 1/2 acres, a 60' x 90' barn, which includes a horse stall, a six car garage with a lift and a huge upstairs area(had been a barn, but my husband's a car guy), a 12' x 27' cabin that I use as a studio, and the house is about 2,000 sq. ft. It was originally 2 bedrooms, but we added dormers to the attic and made it into 2 more bedrooms. This town was founded by Quakers, and this house was built by one of the original founders. New owners could gut and rebuild (my stomach is churning) but I can't imagine why they would want to when there are so many newer homes around. That doesn't seem to be the trend here, unless they find an old farmhous that hasn't been improved in 50 years. We are on a corner, and almost everyone knows and loves the house. People are always stopping our front to take pictures, and I get comments all the time about all of the work we've done, and how lovely it is, from perfect strangers. This place will sell to crazy antique lovers (like myself) or obsessed-with-cars guys (my husband). The market went up 8% last year, and is expected to increase about 4% this year. We certainly won't lose any money, but won't make the killing we might have if we'd sold during the "boom". Because of the exhorbitantly high taxes here, there's no way we can afford to stay put after retirement, and we're not even close to wealthy, so I'm trying to decide if investing a bit into the things we've put off will pay off in the long run...

  • Patricia Danco
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Pllog-

    I had to laugh, as that is exactly what I've been doing for the last 20 years! I've become quite expert at "aged" finishes! ;-). I think you're absolutely right...a bit of tweaking would be the best move at this point (and sure would make my husband happy)! Time to get my builder son down from Vermont and put him to work. I'd rather spend the money on the new house anyway!

    This is the BEST website! Thanks!

  • californiagirl
    10 years ago

    Patti,

    You have perfectly described the kind of property I was thinking of, where the land and the shells hold all the value -- and where there is room for house expansion.

    Sounds like you know the answer. Start planning your retirement kitchen!

    californiagirl

  • CEFreeman
    10 years ago

    Is your home on the historic Registry? It sounds like it should be.
    They might be able to give you some advice -- and if it is, they might have some restrictions.

    I'd love to see some of pictures!

  • magsnj
    10 years ago

    Speaking as someone who recently bought an older home (nowhere near add old as yours -1920's), i bought a house that NEEDED the kitchen to be redone on purpose. The rest if the house needed small projects, but i new the kitchen would be my large project and it made me want the house more......i think it'd be improbable that if the owners had put a kitchen in to sell, that i would've bought it. Old house people are dreamers....so it's almost like dangling a carrot in front of us.

    If i were you i wouldn't update....the people who buy your house are going to be just like you were....old house lovers who are up for a little bit of a challenge....just like you except it sounds like they may be a little luckier since it sounds like you've taken great care with the rest of the house, and they'll probably be able to utilize the kitchen you put in while they figure out what they want to do and save.