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gerty1231

Request for Kitchen Layout and Transition to Family Room Help

gerty1231
10 years ago

Good morning GardenWeb experts! I need your help and advice on some kitchen layout and design options for a home we are building. There are things we are struggling with and would appreciate your expertise. Please weigh in with any ideas for improvement.

We have also posted on the Homebuilding Forum:

Request for Layout and Design Help
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0301562013538.html

Link to photobucket house pictures below:

http://s74.photobucket.com/user/gerty1231/library/House photos?sort=4&page=1

Family-Kitchen Transition

Please help us determine the best way to eliminate the half-wall design between the family room and kitchen. The current plan is to completely open this area up with no dividing posts or support beams in the middle breaking up the space. We would put in a header beam and then wood panel the two support posts at the ends of the kitchen. Is there a better option than completely opening this space up? We love an open floor plan, but in terms of design and character of the house, does another option present itself?

If we do open the entire area, what are our kitchen layout options? One island, two islands, what shapes, sizes? We cook most meals at home and holiday bake. Usually only one person is cooking at a time, but someone else tends to be loading or unloading the dishwasher. I am worried about the look of the refrigerator (ours is a side-by-side, counter-depth) right next to the double-door pantry. Are there too many tall doors close to each other? Our builder has pretty much talked us out of the prep sink in the island. He estimated $3,000 for the sink/disposal/plumbing, etc. We love the look of the island sink, but will still use the main sink for cleanup and prep. If we do not install an island prep sink, we definitely want to include a pot filler in the design ($300).

Another consideration is that we would like to have island seating for breakfast and light dinners. If the island (7�6" x 3�6") cannot accommodate seating for four, however, we can be okay with just the 2 bar stools at the end of the island (as in the picture). We would consider seating at the counter with the sink/dishwasher on the family side if the seating includes something more interesting like slipcovered chairs or benches. Our kids (daughter 13 and son 8) mostly do homework in the formal dining room and only occasionally in the kitchen. We have a round wooden table and chairs for the breakfast area.

Oh, I should mention that we like the cooktop in the corner of the kitchen because it is different. We will miss the larger pantry that the corner layout provides but are willing to give up a little space in exchange for interest. (Our minds can be changed if a wonderful alternative is suggested.)

Do you see a better layout or design option? Suggestions for improvements?

Outside the Breakfast Room

Should the concrete porch area outside of...

Comments (11)

  • mark_rachel
    10 years ago

    Just by first glance I was thinking get rid of your island and move the main sink "island" in toward the kitchen and extend it toward the family room. That would give you a huge island that you could put seating on the family room side. I would also cover the patio, at least part of it.

  • gerty1231
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thanks teachertile for the response. If we eliminate the middle island and move and expand the sink "island" inward, as you suggest, how far away from the cabinets should the island begin? In other words, the middle island is currently 4 feet away from the back cabinets, what should the distance be for this new bigger island? I want to make sure that the space is still functional and the island does not look too big for the space. Also, how wide do you suggest? I really appreciate any additional details or suggestions.

    I had my husband postpone a meeting with our builder until I received feedback from this forum. I want to get this right, and we really can not afford to make a major mistake with layout.

    Oh, and I am sorry if I was unclear in my original post. We definitely want to cover the patio area outside the family room. The only question for us is whether to cover the concrete area immediately outside the breakfast room as well.

    Thanks again.

  • Buehl
    10 years ago

    Please forgive me, but...$3,000 to plumb a prep sink? Really? Especially for a new build!! The GD is around $200. Sinks can range from $1,000 - but that's under your control. I understand you will be on a slab - but this is a new build so there's no tearing up a current slab and the repairing it - it's not down yet (or is it - but if it is, then you can't move the current sink)!

    Sorry to be so blunt, but...IMHO, it should cost far less - unless your builder just does not want to do it. When builders/contractors do not want to do something, they often inflate the price so much that you either will not do it or pay a premium to have it done.

    Case in point...during my remodel, the contractor did not want to move the shower drain above our kitchen so we could vent outside. He told us it would cost $5,000 to move it. Well, I didn't believe that, so I got three outside estimates - and they ranged from $550 to $1,000. We went with the middle estimate.

    You've hit a sore point with me - I had several similar experiences with my kitchen remodel that have made me very leery of taking a contractor/builder at his/her word for this type of thing.

    With your design (if you stick with it), a prep sink is a must. Without it, you will be running around that island for water when cooking and prepping [if island is used for prepping] and/or you will be competing for counterspace with dirty dishes and then running around the island to get to the refrigerator [if you cram the Prep and Cleanup Zone in that one space - and have lots of wasted space elsewhere].

    I can see what I can do with the "no prep sink" constraint, but be aware it does limit what you can do and you may end up with a lot of wasted space that will not be useful b/c of no water access and/or not close enough to anything useful and/or the primary work zones (Prep, Cooking, Cleanup) crammed into the same space.

  • Cindy103d
    10 years ago

    If you cover the small area outside the breakfast nook, I'd also add a door to it from the keeping room.

  • mark_rachel
    10 years ago

    I know this is different, but it could look something like this. (Just to give you a visual) nice open area going into the family room. The island should be 42-48" away from the perimeter IMO. Just an idea.

  • jdez
    10 years ago

    I like the idea of one bigger island. You could get more seating and it could be set back a little from the living room and leave more furniture placement options in there also.

  • jdez
    10 years ago

    I like the keeping room.

  • Buehl
    10 years ago

    "... I want to get this right, and we really can not afford to make a major mistake with layout..."

    Getting it right may mean having a heart-to-heart talk with your builder (about that prep sink cost). How much will covering the patio by the Breakfast Nook cost? Maybe it would better to postpone covering the patio and put the money to a better, more functional kitchen layout now.


    OK, here are two layouts I worked on late last night (but it got too late to post since I have a rather detailed and long analysis!). One has a prep sink and one does not. Personally, I prefer the functionality and aesthetics of the one with the prep sink, but it's your call since it's your kitchen.


    Layouts...

    Layout #1

    • Nice separation of the Primary Zones - Prep, Cooking, Cleanup - especially the separation of the Cleanup Zone from the Prep & Cooking Zones. It allows multiple people to prep and cook at the same time as well as reduces zone-crossing.

      I'm surprised that you say that only one of you preps/cooks - do your children not help? With a larger kitchen and the separation of zones, the kitchen should easily accommodate multiple cooks. The same goes for cleaning up.

    The Cleanup Zone is off to the side, out of the Prep and Cooking Zones.
    With the Cleanup Zone separated from the other two primary zones, someone can be cleaning up or emptying the DW while someone else is prepping and/or cooking.
    There's a 36" Dish Hutch in the Cleanup Zone so it's easy to put dishes away when emptying the DW. The base cabinet is 27" deep and the upper cabinet is 15" deep to accommodate large dinner plates. The upper cabinet goes to the counter for extra storage
    The Dish Hutch is situated such that it's close to the doorway to the DR to make setting the table easy and not too far from the Breakfast Nook. Since it's on the end of the perimeter run, someone setting the table in the Breakfast Nook (as well as in the DR) will not need to go through any of the primary work zones and so will not get in the way of someone prepping or cooking.
    The Prep and Cooking Zones are protected from through-traffic (very desirable!)
    Both the Pantry and the Refrigerator are situated so there is no major zone-crossing - in particular, you don't have to cross the Cleanup Zone to go from the Prep or Cooking Zone to the Refrigerator or to the Pantry (again, very desirable!)
    The refrigerator is on the periphery and easily accessed not only from the Kitchen but also the Breakfast Nook and Family Room - without those from the FR and BN getting in the way of those prepping, cooking, or even cleaning up.
    The Pantry is closer to the Hall doorway (which is where groceries will enter the kitchen).
    The Pantry is a reach-in pantry with shelves on two walls.
    The Pantry doors are double doors to minimize their impact on the aisle. The only drawback to this location is...

  • Buehl
    10 years ago

    ...Continuing...


    Layout #2

    • The island holds the only sink in the kitchen. As such, it has to be big enough to accommodate both dirty dishes and prepping at the same time. (Unfortunately, I think there will still be competition b/w prep space and dirty dish space, but at least there's room to help with it.)

    The sink has two bowls. This will help by allowing you to dedicate one to prepping and the other to dirty dishes and cleaning up. However, you will still only have one faucet - so you'll have to share it!
    The sink acts as the separator b/w the Cleanup Zone and the Prep Zone. But, that means you will both want the sink when cleaning up (rinsing, DW loading, etc.) is going on at the same time as prepping & cooking.

    "...Usually only one person is cooking at a time, but someone else tends to be loading or unloading the dishwasher..."

    I understand about prepping/cooking and cleaning up at the same time - that's how it is our home! In our old kitchen, we always competed for the sink - even with its two bowls. One of the goals when we remodeled was to eliminate that competition.
    Note the location of the DW, this location keeps it out of the Cooking Zone...in particular, it's far from the cooktop so you don't have the danger of someone taking a step back from the cooktop with a pot of boiling water and stumbling over an open DW door.
    I was able to keep the Prep & Cooking Zones on the same side of the kitchen as the refrigerator to help reduce zone-crossing not only to/from the refrigerator but also to/from the two zones themselves.
    Like the first layout, there's a 36" Dish Hutch. It's still close to the DW for unloading. In this layout, the Dish Hutch is much closer to the BN for setting the table - but it is farther from the DR and this time people will probably cross into the kitchen if they're setting the DR table b/c it's closer than going around the island.
    The refrigerator is still on the periphery. While it's closer to the DR, it's farther from the BN - but it's still outside the Prep & Cooking Zones and should be easy to get to without crossing into the kitchen.
    The island is a slight barrier b/w the refrigerator and Prep Zone, but it's not too bad. I think it's doable.
    The ovens are in the corner - recessed to the back wall. Check out Alku05's kitchen and others in the thread I linked to below for pictures of corner ovens.
    Like Layout #1, the counter in the cooktop perimeter run is 28.5" deep - 3" deeper than standard.
    While the workspaces in the Prep Zone and around the cooktop aren't as generous as in Layout #1, they is still plenty of space in both cases.
    The pantry is a bit smaller, but it's still 5' wide.
    The island is deep enough that someone sitting at the island will not be splashed when the sink is in use (something that is usually more of an issue when cleaning up than it is during prepping.)

    One comment I would like to make about the Cleanup Zone...

  • mark_rachel
    10 years ago

    Wow... Great work buehl!!

  • gerty1231
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Wow...Wow...Wow! Amazing bueh. It is also overwhelming. Let me try to digest some of the changes, and then I will post back.

    At first glance, I will say that I am very excited about a "dish hutch," which I had not even thought about!

    Thanks!