That's OK as wood is close to hardness as maple, a little darker, just wish it would have looked better though

Of all the cuts, I also got "lucky" and there was a void in the middle, yes right in the middle! I can fix it but I was suggested to put an emblem or decoration there and I think that's a fun idea also.

I know this would have been a show stopper for some but, life goes on (as I do my own work so no refunds).. You do get what you paid for, I wonder if their cherry one was solid all the way or not.

Amy

What beautiful tight tolerances you've achieved! Wish you'd been around when I was trimming my copper countertops ... ;-)

This is likely not an option at this point, but you might look into having metal trim made for the edges? The strip of copper bar we had a metalworker bend for our sink counter rim cost us about $80 for the labor, $100 for the copper. (Stainless would be a lot cheaper than copper.)

I think I'll take them off my potential supplier list, though, unless they apologize nicely.

It's a vulnerable area so a veneer will not hold too well. What I should have done is cut the solid maple strip out and laminate it in the spot, but I didn't discover this until I rounded the edges and brought it back in.

Interesting, have you purchsed used their BB before? with what results? Is it comething you could use a quality wood putty on (i've had excellent results with Rock Hard brand).

I have a photo of one of my sink applications where I used an undermount stainless sink. It was very difficult to cut with a jigsaw/router due to its hardness. And was a little more challenging due to the slight density variations one the strips are adhered together. I did however notice the color variations from project to project. Oiled it adds character and I didn't mind it.

The piece I am getting ready to use for my new kitchen also from LL) doesn't have near the darkness or color variation that the one I installed 2-3 years ago did.

IMHO- at the price point of LL BB counters I try to factor things like this as something that I may or may not occur. If they were A-1 cuts of the highest quality maple, with matched grains, hand pieced and glued, etc. they would be substantially more expensive.

I am such a novice at posting photos (as well as links. I hope this works.

My cut is from the 12' counter and I will also be cutting the 8' one for the cooktop and see if that has oak in between.

So, do you guys think I should talk to Lumber Liquidators about this or at least let them know their supplier has decreased in quality?

Anyway, I would definitely say something. They're a big enough distributor that they really don't want their name raked through the mud (amazing how many companies now know about good/bad feedback on gardenweb...).

:)
Sarah

In my opinion, selling you a butcher block with only a veneer of your requested wood type seems dishonest to me.

I'm so sorry that this happened to you but I'm also glad to learn of this BEFORE I purchased my butcher block from LL as I was planning to custom router my own edging and would have ended up with the same problem! Eeek!

I hope you get a positive resolution on this. Best of luck. :(

On that project, I used a 12' counter and completed the entire kitchen (small)! I had originally purchased an 8' and didn't use it (kitchen was reconfigured and needed a longer straight run). That was 4, maybe 5 years ago. I decided not to return the 8' due to their 20% re-stocking fees (I'd use it somewhere). Used it 2 yrs ago w/ 2X4's for a temp sink (used until past week). As mentioned the color variation seemed different to me. They were purchased w/i the same time frame. I will be re-using the "temp" one for the top of 2 24" cabs. I'll let you know when I finish that.

As you had noted, I have also considered the cherry. My LL doesn't have samples or stock of cherry. There ARE times sight unseen can be a beautiful risk, most other times- we've all been there. It's a grab bag.

How are the "guys" @ your local LL? Are you friendly with them; Better yet, Are they FRIENDLY? The "gentlemen" at my local LL are down right surly. Maybe that's b/c I'm a girl. (?) I think that will make a difference on where you should take your feedback or any issue you may want resolved. Not certain, but I got the feeling they are a franchise based company. Do you know if that's the case?
I'm very curious to know.

** also, I'm having a hard time visualizing the knob as an ornament and where your faucet and plumbing will be located for you farm sink. I've never installed that style and I just can't picture it. I'd love to know more details of your plan... It'll be outstanding when complete.

Sorry, I've asked so many questions and no solutions (yet)... I like to get all the info first!

-September

I have contacted the LL store.
I talked to the friendly person who sold me the blocks, he was surprised about this too and is going to have the manager get back to me. I also send them the same picture I showed here.

When I first started this thread I was reluctant to react on the issue because it was tiring to lift this 12' slab and the work to get to this stage. But it's starting to bug me too, especially since my friend said he doesn't mind helping me with the lifting again if I had to get a replacement..

Thanks everyone for their support, this is adding some delay no matter what the solution is..

The manager told me she expects the wood to be the same through out. She is sticking by the fact that I have a defective and past the exchange period.

I could order another piece but honestly I don't think it's going to be different. The manufacturer doesn't glue up 1 or 2 pieces this way for fun. I am guessing because of the economy situation they did this to save cost.

I am going to cut into the 8' versions that I have, and see if it is the same way.

Most people wouldn't notice unless I tell them.

I am hoping there is a stain or bleach method to lighten the oak part so it's not as yellow.

In another post I asked for alternatives and they costed twice as much, before paying freight

Also, none of this matters if one were not doing an undermount sink.

The hole is excusable. Holes happen. But oak doesn't slip in between maple on its own.

They're going to lose some sales from this, if it's any consolation.

FWIW, we have LL cherry bb on our sink run and it's all cherry (at least where we did our sink cutout, who knows what it is on the other end.)

Definitely try the regional manager and report the problem to the BBB. Fingers crossed you get a better resolution with the regional manager.

I have the cherry butcher block from LL and it turned out beautifully. I was certain they would make it right for you!

I agree with Bbstx. Let them know that they're going to lose a lot of business because of this this.

If I were you, I'd ALSO post your experience in the Flooring Forum, as that's where most Lumber Liquidators queries end up. Potential buyers over there also need to hear about it.

That is really crappy customer service as far as I'm concerned. Grrrr.

I agree about going up the chain.

From that point on I have come to the conclusion that with LL you get what you see and no guarantees beyond that. They also dont believe in customer service. attitude is what happens beyond their doors is your problem. I guess I cant complain for the price i paid for the wood.

It is amusing to see that o*k is now a 'filler' wood.

When bayareafrancy had a problem with her soapstone, the owner of M. Teixiera responded to her himself, even though the problem was with her local installer, which was not even affiliated with his company. I am quite sure that the goodwill his response generated with posters here was good for his business.

When buehl had problems with her local EXPO design center, a rep from Home Depot's corporate office got involved and saved their reputation, as well. The CEO even heard about buehl's kitchen! Who knows how many posters and lurkers felt better about getting their kitchens done through EXPO as a result?

It's not too late for Lumber Liquidators to do the right thing. You bought and paid for maple butcher block, you should have maple butcher block. I could believe that the oak was a supplier problem if Lumber Liquidators fixed it. As it stands it is 100% a Lumber Liquidators problem.

If all else fails, notify the consumer protection division of your state's attorney general's office. They may view this as a deceptive practice.

I'd like to write them directly and let them know that they have lost my business as a direct result of this incident. I was planning a butcher block counter and island and was going to router my own custom edge and would have ended up in the same situation as you when I routered through the very thin veneer of maple!!

I would like to reference the exact store that is providing the inexcusably poor customer service which has turned me away from LL but if you are not comfortable with that I can understand and I'll just reference the GW link to this thread instead.

Again, I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. :( Please keep us posted.

I am not in the confrontational mood.. but I do want to let them know so maybe they would get in touch with their supplier, talking to the store manager it seems nothing was done in that regard.

It's interesting how the store manager was really quick to dismiss any other rhetorical questions I had, by offering future discount. Saying that I could save thousands of dollars on other projects in the future and will offset the cost of this incident -- like I would really want to buy from them again when they wouldn't even fix this one right.

Would this be the contact page to get in touch with the LL corporation?

http://www.lumberliquidators.com/custserv/contactus.jsp

I was given the idea to route out the middle and carefully glue a strip of maple in, hopefully it will work as I intended. When I finish the kitchen then I would have more time to share my experience with other forums, including Ikea fans, DIY forums.

It's strange LL BB was some what highly recommended..
As far as I am concerned they should have done and I would have been happy:

- contact their supplier and find out more information about these products, and attempt to find me a solid maple replacement, even if I were to pay for a new one -- this was not done.

- at least let me return the 2x 8 foot sections I bought that I have not used at all, so I can go with another Butcherblock maker and scrap the one I have cut into.

If they were real classy folks (ha), they would have offered to take back everything including the first one I cut, but instead the manager accused me that I may have shown photos not of their product.

I don't know what warranty was on these products actually, but every kitchen remodeller knows it's easy to run into 1 delay and things get pushed back weeks at a time.

I was there a few months ago looking at unfinished t&g pine flooring and the guy looked me in the eye and said "Lady, you don't want this! You can't use pine for floors its too soft. Let me get you some samples of oak or an engineered floor that will look better". There isn't much I dislike more than a person (unsolicited) telling me What to do, or What I like. BTW my NEW pine floors are beautiful and they are from a local millyard which bent over backwards and had outstanding customer service.

I do appreciate your updates and bringing this issue to the forum. I look forward to any resolve you may have. I without doubt will add my name to the growing list of those who will steer clear of LL.

How do we know what was disclosed or not about this product? Do we know for a fact that they were selling it as "solid maple butcher block top"? I'd take exception to the whole thing as that's not butcher block to me anyway. True butcher block top is end grain only, what's shown here is bowling alley floor.

Lumber Liquidators is the source? What about this name makes you think it's a top notch, tier 1 supplier? They don't advertise as such either. We have nice stuff at low prices because we haggle w/our vendors and buy distressed stuff sound like what I've seen /heard.

How do you think they are able to sell this at a lower price than BOOS Bros. or Michigan Maple? It's not because they're stores are less fancy ect... It's because they use lesser quality materials and cheaper labor.

Unless the manager is a complete idiot her response to the inquiry that the product was not solid maple if it wasn't supposed to be should have been of course it isn't rather than my expectation is that it would be solid maple and we won't take it back because you you can't prove that the top in the picture is the top on your receipt. Don't you think?

(And while it's not end grain butcherblock, it's still pretty commonly called butcherblock).

Fori - look what you just said "it's sold as maple - It' ain't all maple" It's not being sold as "all maple" ! It does contain maple, so can be sold as such. It's not sold as "first quality" either. Why would you expect it to be first quality at a place like that anyway??? THAT WAS THE POINT OF MY LAST POST!!! For pete's sake the stuff is only 13 bucks a square foot. Can you guys even by a lamanite top for that price, let alone a stylish quality counter?

Are you getting any less of a Cadillac STS because it has a Chevy derived engine and transmission? Is it less of a Chevy because it was developed by a division of Mercury Marine? Under your strict guide lines you'd have to be angry because it's not as advertised, or even disclosed in the easily seen literature.

Cary _ I don't think or assume anything about a second rate store's ops personel, they generally know less about the products they carry then I do. They know a lot about the store's policies and scheduling - hence the we're not going to refund OP's $$$ when the contract's time is up. This stuff will also come out of that stores bottom line, as second goods retailers don't have the luxury of returning everything to the vendor for a credit like H.Depot, Lowe's & Wal-Mart. So, another reason to stick firm to a store's refund policy -especially when it's not the manager's fault they are selling shoddy stuff. She's making do the best she can.

I don't see anything wrong w/this top as long as you don't want to have an undermout sink in it. Looks pretty good, no one has said it's flimsy, and the price is cheap,cheap , cheap.

Is your maple butcherblock solid maple? Or laminated maple over another wood type?

And their response, I didn't even ask about voids!

Dear Robin,

Thank you for contacting us.

Our butcher block counter tops are solid wood throughout and are free of "voids".

Please contact me if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,

Keith Sobczak

Notice he said "...solid wood throughout...". So just to be sure, I replied with this:

Thank you, but my question was are the maple countertops solid maple? I realize they are solid wood, but is it ONLY maple?

Thanks again.

Sent from my iPhone

I'll post an update when I receive a response to this. I do find the "free of "voids"" comment curious in light of poorowner's experience.

But the maple veneer--that's not cheap labor. That takes EFFORT to screw up!

But Antss -- She DOES have an undermount sink in it.
And that's why this is such a problem.

I will say, I'm disappointed in LL- yes, they are a discount place but what you advertise is what you advertise. The sad thing is that I'm not surprised. The only good thing I can say about their customer service is that they didn't nag me (they ignored me instead). We do need a wood floor, and if the price is right, we'll probably go back to LL- but I will be very careful inspecting before the return time!

Sorry to hear about this- I think you have the right attitude although it's not perfect, your workmanship is impeccable and your end result will be stunning. Can't wait to see it!

It sounds like LL used to sell these solid cherry and solid maple. Now they have done this to cut cost. It's sad because they don't understand the trend and needs of kitchen remodelling.

At this point I am going to fix it my way.. Thanks everyone.

Casey

I cut into the smaller 8 footers that I have and found the same thing. The strips at the ends are single solid strips of maple, but once you cut past the first foot or so, it's all a mix of smaller oak and maple strips.

On the cuts exposing end grains, I actually got lucky with the cuts on my sink, no real voids, I have done a few cuts and find sometimes there are really some bad looking oak shoved in the middle with globs of glue oozing out into random voids.

I would advise everyone not to buy this product. I am sure no one wants to now anyway, if you have read this far.

If this product does fail one day I can always buy from Ikea or pay more for one of the real maple counter tops. Although Ikea does not have longer than 8'. I have used Ikea beech for other project before and it's beautiful. It's more yellow and I still prefer maple best.

Casey is right the different wood mixed together is less than desirable. But I do not have any choice but to proceed with the project with what I have.

Thank you for sharing your experience! I wish the outcome had been better. I hope it helps knowing that you've saved many, hours of frustration and money.

I would love to see add'l photos of the rest of your kitchen. The stainless farm sink is stunning.

-September

Enough people take advantage of consumers everyday, you should NEVER just be OK with it, and that's exactly what happened here!!

When you cut it open, because of the little oak pieces, IMO poorly fitted in between, you can end up finding voids in places.

Please, do not buy from them. If you do, make sure you have in writing from the store what you are getting, and
cut it open at the store. But, it's just better alternative to get a beech or oak from Ikea or pay more for Boos or other butcher block manufacturer, if you need maple.

I have not contacted the corporate but I think I am done dealing with them. I am sure this is just a tiny part of their products anyway. The product is flawed; but not as bad as their customer service.

I did manage to make the wood look better, will post a picture soon.

Again, PO, I'm so sorry this happened to you. :(
******************
My husband and I are about to begin a kitchen update and to finally replace all of the carpeting in our home with wood floors (roughly 1900 sq ft). Part of my kitchen update was to include a lumber liquidators butcher block island. I also had my heart set on your Virginia Mill Works Espresso Brazilian Cherry Flooring (3/4"x5") to replace all of our carpeting.

However, now that I've come across a certain post on the Gardenweb forums and have been made aware of the poor customer service and (in my opinion) dishonest business practices of LL by providing substandard products I will be taking my business elsewhere.

Please be aware of the below thread on the highly popular Gardenweb forums and know that each day that this situation goes unresolved it will continue to cost Lumber Liquidators $$ in lost business.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0301315620876.html?61

The title is "Lumber Liquidators butcherblock - Oak in between!".
****************************

*********************
RE: Comments to the Office of Tom Sullivan, Chairmanþ
From: Tom Sullivan (ts2@lumberliquidators.com)
Sent: Wed 4/01/09 7:53 PM
Cc: Marco Pescara (mpescara@lumberliquidators.com); Maureen Donich (mdonich@lumberliquidators.com); Bas Van. Genderen (bgenderen@lumberliquidators.com)

Should be solid maple - I will look into this -

Tom Sullivan
Chairman/FounderLumber Liquidators, Inc
3000 John Deere Road
Toano, VA 23168
Direct Tel: 757-259-4281Direct
Fax: 757-566-0563
*********************

Thanks for posting, PO, and I'm sorry about your troubles.

I am not sure on whether I like my idea of putting it near the stove, as it's unsealed at the moment, and I don't want grease stains on it. Once it's sealed, I think it's going to be unsinkable LOL!

Customer Service from Lumber Liquidators has contacted me today. They have refunded me for part of the project. They will also be talking to the supplier so this should not happen to future purchases. I am happy with this resolution.

I want to thank everyone who has chimed in and especially tootiepugsmom who helped me get further with this by bringing this post to their attention in the first place.

May I suggest a few suggestions? This will be painful to read, but I offer them to you with good will.

1. Do not attempt to patch the void with any type of putty. Wood is constantly moving as it takes and gives moisture content. Putty does not. Over time, the block of putty will develop gaps to the wood, and water will be suck into those gaps by capillary action. Microbiological critters will grow, create more gap, and trap more water. The putty will eventually work loose, and look hideous.

2. Take your refund and move on to a better choice of countertop. When you expose end grain and glue joints to sink splashing, the wood will swell. There is no type of coating that will stop this short of boat hull paint. Which is to say, it can never look good without perpetual maintenance.

3. If you insist on keeping this countertop, you can fix the oak and end grain problems with a day's work. Turn the counter over and use a circular saw or router to cut them away. You will need to screw down guide rails for a smooth cut. You will also need to set the depth of the cut to preserve the top veneer of maple. And you will need to stop the cuts to preserve the veneer on the front edge of the counter. An hour's worth of careful chiseling will also be needed to remove core material in the corners.

The result of this cutting will be a 1/4+ inch space into which you can glue an apron of some solid, side grain maple. Use an exterior grade polyurethane adhesive and a dozen clamps to keep the glue lines tight. Sand the infill maple flush with the counter bottom and all of the veneer edges. ((This is just a more substantial variation of the veneer repair that someone else offered.))

4. That will make your sink your cut out as good as it can possibly be with wood. But it's still not good enough to be durable. So you will need to wipe down the sink edge and dry the area immediately after each use.

Wood countertop around a sink is not for a cook's kitchen. It is for a show kitchen. That means light usage and heavy maintenance forever, or it will turn ugly.

Cordially, Fred

I am very glad to hear that LL did step up and do the RIGHT THING. Their prices on butcher block can't be beat so I was really hoping for a good resolve since there was no way I was using a vendor that wouldn't stand behind their own product! Now I can move forward with my plan to glue together two 8ft LL butcher blocks to form one large island top that I'm going to custom router my own ogee edge into! Yipiee! :))

Fyi ~ Below is the last communication I had from LL so I guess it helps to send your complaint straight to the TOP! :) I think it says a lot that the company founder himself responded.
***************************
Lisa -

We will/do stand behind our products - this was sold as solid maple (and purchased by us with that understanding) -if it was not we will replace - we will contact the customer who posted this and correct -

Thank you
Tom Sullivan
Chairman/Founder
Lumber Liquidators, Inc
***************************

Poorowner, Another thought.... Did you talk to customer service about the LL branch that you dealt with? I hope that they have a firm word with the store that gave you such unacceptable customer service! I'm sure they must not appreciate that branch bringing down the reputation of LL corp as a whole. :(

First of all, YOU ROCK! Second, how are you going about gluing the two pieces of BB together? I assume you are doing something so there isn't a huge gap between the two pieces?

Thanks in advance!

Here is a comment from the 8ft maple section. I think it's review #22......
"For the wider island we just ripped two counter tops and glued them together so we have a finished side all the way around (counter tops are only finished on one side). The seam blends right in the butcher block."

Another person said...
"We glued and biscuited two pieces to make a pennisula."

One guy posted a photo and left a review in the 8ft cherry section showing how he used it for his 6ft x 6ft island. It looks great!!

I also came aross this site where it describes how to MAKE butcher block.

http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?article_id=60470

Although I have NO plans to make one I though I'd incorporate his instructions on how to glue the pieces together. My husband has these really long straps that have a metal tightner on them that he uses to strap down loads in the back of our truck. I was thinking we could use those to hold the butcher blocks tightly together while the glue sets? What do you think?

Has anyone out there on Gardenweb done this? Anyone, anyone? Buhler?

;)

I also will need to make a 36" wide x 45" long for my island from 1 8 foot piece. This is not an easy thing from my research. You will likely run into unevenless and lippage between the 2 edge. Also, I have some experience gluing these things, you need some kind of alignment aid, or it's going to slip up and down when you clamp it. And you get lippage again. That's where the biscuits comes in. I bought a cheap biscuit joiner, the tolerance may be sloppy but it will help. If you are making a piece 8 foot long, you will have to measure the flatness of each each and try to match them up. For this task, I would use the glue titebond 2 instead of titebond 3, I did not like titebond 3 drying to a very dark color. I heard titebond 2 is less waterproof but with a varnish and on the island it does not matter.

Regarding cutting a long piece and gluing the pieces side-by-side, it can be a tricky process. If the butcherblock (bb) is unfinished, then it's a lot simpler as you can sand or plane the seam to smooth out the edges.

In any case, gluing up two pieces of wood is somewhat trickier than you might think. As noted, biscuits are for alignment only and don't add any strength (nor is additional strength needed for long-grain gluing). Clamping across both the top and bottom is highly recommended, if not mandatory. The reason being is that the wood will tend to bow at the seam towards the clamps if you only clamp on one side.

Even with biscuits you can get some lippage at the seam. In addition to the biscuits, or even instead of, you can use additional pieces of scrap wood to hold the main pieces together. Difficult to describe, but basically get four pieces of thick and flat scrap about 12-24" long. One pair will go above and below the seam at each end, perpendicular to the seam. You clamp the scraps together with the finished piece in-between. Use about 3 clamps per side.

If you're visualizing this with me, you'll see that the scraps and clamps are now holding the pieces of your finished piece perfectly flat and co-planar. Now add your regular clamps to pull the finish piece together and you're all set. Altogether I'd recommend 6 small clamps for your scraps, and 4 more for the main bb clamping.

Use wax paper or plastic wrap between the scraps and the finished piece to keep them from getting glued-togeher by squeeze out.

By the way, below is another communication (and probably the last) from LL. I'm typically very distrusting of any large corporation but I have to say, I'm pretty impressed with LL corporates respose to the situation. I'm very comforted going forward with their products now that I know they actually DO give a rip! :)

*********************************
From: Brian Pullin (bpullin@lumberliquidators.com)
Sent: Thu 4/09/09 6:44 AM

Lisa,

Thank you for responding.

I discussed the situation after making contact with XXXXXX and remedied the problem providing him with options. He asked for a full refund and wanted to keep the product and we felt this was fair and granted the credit in full.

As you can see from the exchanges with Tom – We have eyes on the supplier and sincerely appreciate raising this problem to our attention.

We can only fix issues we’re aware of and Customer Care reacts to every situation taking responsibility for problems where fault lies with our product, or a product supplied by a vendor. I believe XXXXXX was going to add a post showing we took care of this for him.

Thanks again and have a great day. :)

Brian Pullin
Customer Care Manager
Lumber Liquidators, Inc.
*********************************

here is the fix I applied which is to remove the oak I see and laminate in a piece of maple edge I cut from another piece.

Tight joint for the corner.

My little kitchen still missing island but ready to cook soon.

How did you like using the waterlox? I just used it on my pine floor- I was very impressed by the ease of use and results. I'd love to hear more about your experience in a countertop application. (Maybe even another thread with it as the subject).

Again, Congratulations in every arena. Job well done.

**Tootiepugsmom- Great job on your behalf too. (Everyone on this forum is so great- some truly standout for their efforts and generosity).Thanks, you've helped many, myself included.

*** I have a request (suggestion)- I'm not the most thread savvy when it comes to posting, pictures and the like (most of my web based stuff is done via blackberry). Could someone start another thread (or copy the above appropriate posts) RE: DIY BB islands, tips for joining standard width BB counters together, and finishing of such? Outstanding Information!

Due to the subject (and length) of this threat, It may be missed/ overlooked by many who would benefit or be able to share their personal expertise and experience.

You guys are hands down the best resource out there. Truly Priceless.

(Thanks AGAIN)-

September

>*** I have a request (suggestion)- I'm not the most thread savvy when it comes to posting, pictures and the like (most of my web based stuff is done via blackberry). Could someone start another thread (or copy the above appropriate posts) RE: DIY BB islands, tips for joining standard width BB counters together, and finishing of such? Outstanding Information!

September, at the upper right of each post you'll see a pair of scissors and the word "clippings." Just below that you can click on "clip this post" and that will put the post in your clippings file that you get to from your member page here. Very useful.

Very clever lamination work around the sink. I'm guessing that you routered out some of the oak so the maple would set flush? In any case, magnificient work. ((Applause!!)) :)

I'm so anxious to start my butcher block island project but have to get finished with the cabinets first. If no one has started a BB thread by then you can bet I will have to as I'm pretty nervous about joining those two slabs and will be here crying out for help! ;)