sink should go in the corner, move the DW from island and put where sink was, also put a garbage/recycle cabinet there next to DW.spice pull outs can be difficult to access better to have in top drawer spice holders the ones that are on a angle set in the drawer so you see all your spices when you open the drawer.also not necessary to have 30" cabinets made for outer wall, if you want deeper counter space just pull the 24" deep cabinets off the wall and pad out the difference of 6".careful with the seating in the island right now it looks like there is no room if you over hang the countertop 12 to 14" to accommodate stools. you might have to shorten up the island a little on the backside for proper seating

I don't know if you've posted plans before...so don't know if this is a new build or remodel, or what all the doors lead to, do how traffic might run. How many cooks? Any kids and what ages? Will those seats at the island be filled often and during work times?

Can we know the reason the fridge can't move?

You asked for any visible problems, so I'm going to share those I'd consider big for me.

Not enough room around the sink. You'll be practically hitting your elbows on the fridge and I use the counter to both sides of my sink. The usual rule of thumb is to have 2 ft of counter to each side when possible, and in a kitchen this size, it doesn't seem like crowding such an important element of the kitchen function should be necessary or would be advised.

The dw across from the fridge means lots of dripping across the floor and lots of twisting and turning...in addition to open-door conflicts.

I would do a 90-degree front on the corner cabinet instead of the diagonal, which takes up floor space and decreases counter edge frontage, crowding the sink space even more.

I hope you mean that the spices are next to the range, and the 3rd cabinet from the right? Not 3 cabinets away from the range?

If you're going to store baking pans near the stove and that's where the oven is also, it seems the baking center might be best on the righthand wall, which I'm guessing might be the dining room wall? That way it's situated between your 2 ovens. There, you can also use the island and/or the space under the window as extra work, roll-out, and cooling space. It's also out of what looks like it might be a higher traffic area.

If you use the area next to the pizza oven as baking space, the counters on the right wall could be a breakfast or snack center. Space for toaster/toaster oven, etc. Will you have a microwave?

The problem with either spot is not very convenient access to the sink.

Thanks for the input ihelpu and rhome410. I've incorporated your suggestions below:

The fridge needs to be on that wall because I'll be doing engineering modifications to it and that wall is north facing on a covered deck which allows the venting and air intakes I need. Not typical kitchen stuff but something that's incorporated in my design plans for this new construction.

There are no kids and no one else but me but I do lots of work in the kitchen - I bake pretty much everything I eat, I have 2 pressure canners and put up a LOT in marathon sessions which is why I want lots of counter space. That said, I could do very well with just the island and the wall counters but I have the space for the two stand alone counters and I'm not that excited about just leaving them as bare walls so I slapped cabinets there to simply fill the space. I have the space because the 2nd floor works out great with the added space but that means I have a tad more space in the kitchen that I really need.

I put the spice drawer away from the heat of the range. From the edge of the range to the edge of the spice drawer is 30" which means me taking only one step to have full access. I don't know, is that too far? Do people really need spice access without moving their feet? Would it be better to move it right next to the pan drawer?

Baking Center - I've got the pizza oven and a wood-fired cooktop at the bottom of the picture, so in one sense that makes pizza making very convenient but if I want to use the electric oven then that's on the window wall, clear across the kitchen. Like I said, there is plenty of space to fill up but with the fireplace anchored where it is I'm just not hitting the right combination for layouts. Placing the baking center on the right wall looks like a good compromise because, as you note, it is between the two ovens.

With a kitchen that size it would probably be convenient to have a bar sink but where to put it? The island seems too close to the main sink, the other two counters pose the problems of cutting the counter in half by placing in the center, placing right next to the pizza oven but giving up a very convenient counter space immediately next to that cooking/baking center, placing above the cabinet the furthest from the fireplace or placing somewhere on the baking counter, where it would be equidistant from both ovens but would cut my counterspace from 36" to 24."

For those who have baking centers, what is a good countertop material. The island and the countertops along the wall will be soapstone, so I'd be open to variety (for asethetic reasons) but I'd like to gear it towards an optimum surface for baking. Any suggestions?

The island was drawn shorthand so it looks misleading. The side facing the fridge has 24' boxes and the side opposite has no boxes and consists of an 18" counter overhang.

can there be a separate fridge and freezer?

put the freezer on the bottom wall and use the rest of it for a wall pantry?

I have a large freezer down in my root cellar, which also has storage for pantry items and is low temperature, so I don't need a pantry in the kitchen.

If you don't have need for counters for small appliances, coffee center, breakfast center, or some other purpose, I'd put in some kind of full-height storage. It could be to hold your baking pans and serving dishes, a bookshelf for cookbook collection, or whatever you have. I have a big kitchen, and a small walk-in pantry, and wish I had step in or closet type of storage for things like pie plates, cake bans, bread pans, casserole dishes, and all other types of bakeware. Maybe also for dishes. You wouldn't have to be limited to standard lowers and uppers for those spaces.

If you do the corner sink, you probably need the diagonal back. :-)

I like to grab spices as I'm stirring, and don't want to walk away from the stove to get them. Maybe just 2 different ways of doing things.

Where will you have trash?

I would really consider placing the main sink next to the dishwasher to leave more possible prep space between the sink and stove.

As far as a 2nd sink...If you plan to use either of those spots on the opposite side of the island from the sink for work, it'd be useful to have a sink on the right side of the island to help out. It would interfere with the seating as you show it. I'd put it on the right-bottom (SE) corner, so handy to both of those areas, and also nice for the dining room. I could also see it on the NE corner if you use the window counter and right counter for baking, where it would also be handy for use from the stove (prep and filling/draining pots), leaving the main sink only for dirty dishes.

I have laminate for my baking center counter, but more recommended, higher end choice would be marble or other stone. I also like stainless.

I agree with moving the sink next to the dw. If that means not so huge, then that would be worth it to me. I had a large corner sink in my previous kitchen and hated trying to access anything below it or to clean behind it. Moving it to the corner is better than the first layout, but I'd still try to avoid a corner sink. My current sink is 22 wide on the inside and I do just fine with that. If you put a blind corner cabinet with a 90 front that may help you fit in a bigger sink cab next to the dw...but I am not sure about that... Moving the dw closer to the sink will limit how much drips on the floor...

I see the 2 skinny pullouts to the right of the stove and would rather there be one wider one. It wastes spaces to have 2 sets of hardware and will cost you more for the cabs and installation. It is better to fit more in one wide one as it will keep you from searching through both to find something.
I'd also prefer one wide drawer cab to the left of the stove instead of 2 narrower cabs. I can't tell what kind of cabs your bases cabs are, but I wholly recommend drawers, drawers, drawers...

I'd do tall cabs on the right wall of the kitchen. You get more in them and you already have plenty of counter space.

Make sure you preserve some landing zone by your pizza oven. You need a place to land something hot as well as to have space for something ready to go in. I'd want that counter to be heatproof.

For baking, I'd prep near to the right of the regular stove and cook to the left. The pizza oven prep area can be adjacent to it at the bottom of the layout.

What size sink are you using? If it's the standard 33 x 22 size, it looks like you have room to do this set-up (if I'm counting the squares correctly):
fridge
24" DW with cab support between DW and fridge (need something for counter to rest upon)
36" sink cab
3" spacer
24" BCC with cab opening along range wall.

You might even have room to do the following (will depend on sink choice and cab size requirement):
fridge
24" DW with cab support between DW and fridge
33" sink cab
36" corner Susan

Either of the above gives you elbow room on each side of the sink and preserves the longer span of counter between sink and range.

Can you put windows on the deck wall?

Latest re-invisioning below:

I've never had a corner sink and I had some misgivings, so I swapped it with the range. That solves the DW problem.

I've put 15" uppers next to the range, which solves the bare wall problem and I didn't see the appeal of a window opening up onto a deeply recessed deck and I'm trying my best to have as few windows as possible on the North wall.

I've placed a bar sink on the "baking center" stub.

I think that I'm going to junk the cabinents next to the fireplace, move the wall forward 2 feet and on the other side of the room that has been move forward I'm going to fill the 2 ft space with some type of built-in. That solves the problem of too much cabinet space just to fill up room and it creates a "feature" with the built-in in the living and entry area. Now I've got to figure out what to put there other than a cliched bookcase. Oh my, the choices never end! :)

So, what need for improvements do you guys see?

How do people feel about a hardwood counter for the baking? A light maple would contrast nicely with the dark soapstone covering the island and the other counters. Or should wood counters be avoided for baking?

Hi Alexhouse,
How do you envision using the baking counter? Are you hoping to roll the dough out right on the counter or will you do that on a cutting board?
If you're going to do it on the counter, I would probably want marble or another stone. If not, wood will be fine.
Also, a slightly OT question: what type of pizza oven are you putting in? We've toyed with this idea so I'd love to see what you're planning.

The baking center is kind of a post-hoc scheme, that is, I have that stub counterspace and I'm trying to find a use for it, and once a use is determined then trying to tweak it so that is is most efficient for that use.

Frankly, I could be doing baking stuff anywhere in the kitchen, but if I can place everything I need in one convenient location, then so much the better. I've got lots of stone countertop everywhere in the kitchen so if I absolutely need stone for a baking need I can take two steps behind me and use the island. I don't know what I want to do with the countertop yet - I'm thinking that a break from black soapstone would be pleasing to the eye but I'm not 100% committed to that.

Regarding the pizza oven, it's built into the massive masonry heater that faces the dining room/ living room and it will have a wood fired cooking station (free heat is there already when I fire the unit for home heating) facing the kitchen. Kind of like this photo, but also made out of soapstone rather than brick. With no muss or fuss the cooktop is an "always on" heating pad for anything I want to keep warm during the evening.

Here are some more photos of masonry heaters with bake ovens incorporated into them.

How will you use the deck? How do you integrate outdoors with this house? Do you eat out there?
If you do, there is not a good way to go out there or get the food out there. You gotta go through 2 doors and turn 2 times with a plate of BBQ and condiments.
Do you have enough natural light in the kitchen? Because it is North facing, you need more windows not less... It looks dark to me. In a new house construction, I would try to get two walls of windows to the kitchen. You already have a corner location.

I would put French doors and/or windows on the wall that is shared with the deck if that is your outdoor space to eat/entertain during summer even if you have misgivings about windows there.

Most people do not use sunrooms in the summer. This kitchen really lacks the outdoor access...

If you are putting the sink on the wall with windows, most people like looking at the vista over a blank wall.

Alex...can you post a whole-house (or whole first -floor) plan? It looks like you've got great space and great ideas, but I definitely don't think you're optimizing the layout. I'm NOT one of the forum's layout gurus, but even I can see that as it is now, you'd be hauling veggies out of the fridge, across the room, past the range to the sink to wash and prep. With such great space and really a lot of flexibility, you could surely do better.

Have you thought, for example, about putting a prep sink on the island to use as your main prep area, and moving the large sink to under the window on the right? Maybe making the wall on the right, a wall of full -height pantry cabinets? 24" deep pull-outs or 12" deep shallow ones.

If you cook in marathon sessions and bake all your stuff, have you thought about a 36" range instead of a 30"? I love mine, but perhaps with your wood fired option, it's less of an issue. Or you might think about a range top and separate wall oven/ovens.

Finally, what have you got in mind for landing space near the wood fired oven? You're going to want to put that pizza down fast, when you pull it out of the oven.

Bottom line....post the rest of your plans. YOu'll get a lot of great help optimizing the layout.

Kaismom,

The deck is just a utility deck, completely covered by a roof, where dry wood will be stored, muddy boots, etc.

Right off of that utility deck will be an expansive stone patio beyond which lies my greenhouse. Off of the dining room is the sundeck, facing south, which has some pretty nice views. Entertaining would happen on either the stone patio or the sundeck.

There is no way for me to avoid the doors anytime I want to leave the house because each exterior door enters into a vestibule/airlock. The backdoor enters into the mudroom and then into the kitchen. The front door enters into a vestibule and then into the living room. The kitchen door enters into the sunroom and then there is another door from the sunroom out onto the sundeck. The sunroom captures early morning EASTERLY sun and the dining room wall facing east is stone, thus working nicely as a thermal mass. The exterior sunroom door faces south and the kitchen door opens on the south wall and that wall is also stone, thus also working as a thermal mass. I intend to capture the heat and open my kitchen door to let it into the house and then when it gets cold outside and in the sunroom, I close the door to keep the cold out.

Notice that the walls are 15" thick. Nice deep window sills. This means that I'm not in a climate where I've got a lot of indoor/outdoor living and where I'm dealing with a pleasant climate for most of the year. I'm setting out to control heat escape via open doors and through thin walls.

I do believe i have plenty of natural light in the kitchen. the entire east wall can be windows and the kitchen is framed for a 10' high space (don't yet know how much the ceiling treatment will drop the ceiling.)

I took your suggestion and centered one window over the sink but I'm not sure how well that's working. I do have to consider balancing issues with the windows on the floor above. The previous layout had two huge 5' high windows on the kitchen wall - plenty of light coming in and only offset from the sink by a few inches on each side of the sink, meaning I only have to turn my head a few degrees either side and I'm gazing out through a 5'x 5' window on either side - that's 50 sf of windows on the East wall.

Melissastar,

Here are some pics to help you get a better understanding of the first floor.

Some points about the pics. The range hood is a place holder. I can't find a range hood model which is more massive and goes to the ceiling. I'm not too keen on the skinny wall cabinet to the left of the range hood. I will be doing "something" about extending the wall cabinets up a bit more, either taller cabinets or a 2nd decorative row. The ceiling is probably going to get some treatment, meaning that it will drop from the 10' height shown in the rendering. Also, the island is just s slap-dash effort for now but will get prettied up when I get the space planning settled.

I did take your suggestion on the 36" range and I took the extra 6 inches from the left cabinet space because the right butts up against the corner unit.

On the island I've placed a built in cutting board and dropped the height. Does anyone else have something like this? I was thinking that I might find a different height for a cutting surface useful, but that's just speculation on my part. What say you all? Any wisdom on that issue?

To your question on a prep sink on the island, I'm not really keen on that because to my mind it's too close to the main 42" sink on the wall and that island is only 72" x 42". We're only talking a few steps to get from the fridge to the main sink. What's guiding me right now on the prep sink is to find a place for it which is far enough away from the main sink but still close to a work area which could justify taking counter space for the prep sink. Having it over on the stainless steel countertop along the South wall, amidst all the baking stuff kind of meets those conditions.

Regarding the 36" range and the wood fired stove, well, I don't at present have a wood fired stove so putting that in is a leap of faith for me. I have no idea how much, or if at all, I'll be using it. I do know though that the residual heat in the masonry heater will give that stove top some heat and the flip side is that if I purposely heat up the stove in order to cook something there then the heat of the fire will also heat the rest of the mass in the masonry heater and save me the trouble of firing the heater just for heat - it's kind of a "kill two birds with one stone" type of deal. Or that's how I'm justifying it. It won't cost much to put it in and I HOPE that I'll use it sometime.

The landing for the pizza/bake oven will be the island in the kitchen. Anything that comes out of the oven won't be held in my bare hands, so the eight foot transit to the island won't kill me. Also, it's not like the pizza/bake oven will be getting daily use (but then if I really like wood fired baking, it might.)

corner sinks are not ideal. it would be really great if you could do individual fridge/freezer. you could definitely use more space around your range. it's very cramped...

Alex, I actually have a dropped cutting situation like you proposed. DH had an antique butcher block that he wanted worked into the kitchen design and honestly I was just trying to find a place to put it when we designed it! However, I have found that it is my main prep space because it is convenient to my range and prep sink. While I am on the taller side at 5'10", The height is very comfortable to not only prep and cut veges, but to mix and stir as well.

These pics show its relation to my stove, fridge and prep sink.

Ok...I may be jumping to all sorts of erroneous conclusions here. But it seems to me that you are spending a great deal of time, effort and money to get just the house you want in terms of energy efficiency and structural engineering. But the kitchen...as you acknowledge...is lacking the same kind of thoughtful planning and design to make it work really well. And if you're talking about that jumbo size fridge and soapstone counters...it's not peanuts to build and equip either. So, don't be shortsighted about the kitchen. The folks here, if you listen to them, can help you make it a marvel of efficiency and design. My own two cents in terms of design is worth just about that. But the two cents from folks like rhome, plllog and others is worth about two million cents.

Couple of points/questions. What exactly is the wood cooking surface near the pizza oven? And how is that oven likely to be oriented...toward the living room, above the fireplace opening as in the pictures you posted above? Or with the oven oriented into the kitchen? What is the wood surface? I may not be understanding correctly, but I'm thinking that it might be far better to have a soapstone surface there...which would withstand anything hot put on it and save the wood for elsewhere...like maybe the island.

As for a prep sink...the point of a second sink for food prep in a kitchen is to put water for scrubbing vegetables, etc. near the point where you would prepare them, while allowing the cleanup area and main sink to be some distance away...giving you two separate working zones in a kitchen. (either allowing two people to work or allowing one person to prep food in one area without first having to clean up the dirty bowls in the sink). Big kitchens don't need prep sinks just cause they are big. They need a prep sink if it makes preparing and cooking food tasks easier.

You asked about a baking center. Stone counters work best for it, or perhaps stainless. Wood is not optimum...you want something cold and smooth to roll out dough. (So should NOT be near the pizza oven/fireplace arrangement.
A deeper than usual counter is handy everywhere, but particularly handy for rolling out dough, large cookie sheet type pans, cooling racks, etc. You'll want storage for flours, sugars, etc. within reach...arm's length...if possible. Easy storage for mixer, etc.

Now that folks may have a better understanding of what you're going for here, they may have some useful advice.
By the way...where is this home to be built?

Westiegirl,

That's good to read about your butcher block. I dropped the surface down 4" below the soapstone counter. Does anyone have studies or reference heights for what are comfortable heights for different cutting activities in kitchens?

Is that soapstone on your counters? Am I your doppleganger? You built double wall, I'm building double wall. Now soapstone and butcher block? :)

Melissastar,

You're jumping to the accurate conclusion. Technology and science don't phase me at all - so stripping apart a fridge and improving its performance and engineering it right into the house is something I'm comfortable with but working on interior design is killing me.

So, what I've done is sacrificed the fridge and I'm down to a 48" model, which buys me 12" additional on the counter next to the 36" range, that is a 29" counter (No spacers in my kitchen.) How's this looking?

The wood cooking surface is just shorthand for me in the plans. Look at this masonry heater.

I'll be having something similar. The main firebox will be facing into the living room. The bake/pizza oven will be directly above the firebox and so will capture the heat of the fire every time there is a fire. The cooking griddle and such will be facing into the kitchen and will have a supplementary firebox below the cooking surface. I've since junked the cabinets and counters that were adjacent to the masonry heater and I've used the space to plan for a "heating bench" on the other side of the masonry heater. You see, the thing of it is, I've never actually seen any of these bake ovens which were fully integrated into the kitchens - the ovens always face into the main room so I don't imagine that the transference of the bread or pizza of whatever you're baking to the kitchen is that big of a deal. It's the nature of the beast - the prime reason for the masonry heater is to heat the whole house and the free bonus that you get is that you can bake bread and pizza so you live with the less than optimal placement of the oven.

Thanks for the explanation of the prep sink. This leaves me with a bit of a quandry. The island is what it is. I'd like a bigger island so that the island could accommodate a prep sink and cutting board but to do that I would have to expand the size of the kitchen and the kitchen is already big enough for one person. This means that the choice comes down to the butcher block or the prep sink because the island is likely to be my prep zone. I can't really see myself using the "baking center" as a main prep zone so having the prep sink there only serves to add a convenience for baking and it saves me a few steps if I want some water from the tap.

I can see myself using that butcher block at its current location. Out of the fridge and right onto the block. If something needs washing, then only 4 feet behind me is a 42" double sink. I don't see how I can place the prep sink at the far end of the island because that countertop has leg room underneath it so there is nowhere for the plumbing to go. If I place the prep sink in the center of the island then I've cut my work surface down the middle. If I junk the butcher block and place the prep sink there, then I salvage the work space and it's right next to the fridge and range, but now I have a 42" double sink and a prep sink right next to each other.

As for the baking center, I've designated the countertop to be stainless and the cabinets are 30" so the counterop is going to exceed that.

I sure hope the wizards here can help make this a better design.

The home is being built in the high mountains near Whistler BC.

You might consider a drawer micro in the island. The microwave location shown (Feb 28, 12 at 1:51) has issues with not being able to open the door all the way and collision between the micro and the ref.

Unless you are on the shorter side, practice with a cutting surface that is lowered. I am 5'7" and perfectly happy with a surface at about 38". I have a large board now at 37" and will sometimes use a board on top for carving and I have noticed that its much better.

Kneading dough could use a lowered surface.

Also, think about the relationship between range/ref/prep/water that exists while doing prep/cooking. The way your plan is set up, it is more likely that you'll do most of the prep work on the outer counter between the range and the sink. NOT that doing so is wrong, its that I think you see yourself prepping on the island. The other point(issue) about this arrangement is that you and cooking can get kinda trapped if a family life of any sort develops as well as when entertaining.

I don't know how else to describe this, but imagine running a party with a bar set up on the right side sunroom wall. Lots of people will still run back and forth through the outer aisle, to-fro the refrigerator. Some people will try to be helpful. They will do some cleanup or some prep (Can I bring something?) or just stand around and chat in front of your cleanup sink. Either/both activities can separate you from water and/or a drain which is annoying at best.

You do not have enough room between the island and the sunroom wall cabinets to have stools like that. You have 42" aisles, but you need aisles that are closer to 60" in order to actually use both things at the same time. A person in a stool takes up 24" of aisle space. That leaves a space only 18" wide behind an occupied stool for a person to be able to open drawers (21-22" deep), doors (up to 24" wide) or to scoot by someone who is trying to use that piece of counter in the 2" that remains(24" for chairs, 16" allowance for a body).

AND the only route to the sunroom and large deck is through that aisle.

Where are you currently thinking of storing food?

Alex, yes that is soapstone on my counters. While it looks like we had many of the same goals in our builds, I actually was more concerned with the aesthetics in many respects. I wanted a home that functioned well and was as energy efficient as possible, but I also wanted "pretty". Having a house that looked like an old farmhouse was important to me and I made some tradeoffs in function as a result, such as the double hung rather than a casement window.

In your situation, you might benefit greatly from a consultation with an interior designer who could help you pull some of the finishes together as well as make suggestions to the layout based purely on making it attractive. DH and I balanced each other out in making decisions on the build by him just wanting it to function well and me wanting it to be "pretty" we were able to see both sides more easily. Because you are doing this on your own, you are missing that person strongly advocating for the attractive option.

Back to your prep sink issue, I am not a layout person. Others here are much better at that. However, I can tell you that with my setup of fridge, range, cleanup sink around the corner, I could live without the prep sink. I do have a potfiller at the range that I use a lot. I often prep with my back to the main sink at the butcher block. Standing here, the main sink is an easy pivot step to use. My roll out trash is just to the left of the main sink, so it makes for a conveient area. I will then step to the range and pull items that have been prepped to the stove and back and forth. I actually use the prep sink more when someone is in the kitchen helping me and they are prepping on the other side of the island or tending something on the stove and they can use that sink while staying out of my prep area.

Alex: Where are you planning to store foodstuffs?
Where is the baking area you have planned...that stretch of counter on the right?
Have you given thought to where exactly you will store everything you now own or want to own and use in the kitchen? Where is the trash going? Where will you store plates and glasses...if they go in the upper cabinets near the range, that's very inefficient. To put them away from the DW means walking across the room. Storing food stuffs in upper cabinets doesn't work well, however, because you have to dig to the back of the shelves to find stuff and it's hard to see.

There's lots to think about...
I suggest you start here, it'll help you make good use of this forum.

All things you should have planned.
Plus how important is the seating in the kitchen to you?

Here is a link that might be useful: Read me first....

I have a 48 x 60 island with prep sink, and the prep sink, nicely located so I can move from fridge to prep sink to prep beside it on the island then turn to the stove is priceless. I also do some baking tasks on the island, for which the sink, placed on the corner between stove and baking area, is also invaluable.

I would try a series of windows, rather than one huge one...Unless 1 suits the exterior style of your home better.

Below I've linked a blog post that shows my kitchen layout, and if seeing the whole kitchen would help, there are photos and description here:
http://rhome410.blogspot.com/p/my-kitchen.html
.

Here is a link that might be useful: My kitchen layout...Zones & Workpaths