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blackchamois

Help! My perfectionistic tendencies are getting the best of me!

blackchamois
10 years ago

So I just had my counters installed (for the 2nd time) - Caesarstone Raven.

For the most part, they are pretty perfect. However, there are two areas with slight flaws. I'm wondering if I should just overlook it, or if there is anything that could be done to fix it.

They are both pretty minor, so I think I know the answer but ... I'll share anyway.

The first is the corner of the peninsula - it appears that maybe it was chipped a little and they smoothed it over which makes the corner more beveled/angled. It is not sharp or rough, but looks sort of rounded. (see pic)

The second is the sink edge - which is fine until the upper right corner which around the curved part the edge is a little beveled. Visually it's not that noticable but when you run your finger along the edge you can definitely feel the bevel. (Will post pics in the next message).

Comments (122)

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Update: The guy came out and looked at the issues.

    chipped corner - He agreed that the corner was not acceptable and said they should not have been installed in the first place. He said they could "redo" it (which I don't understand how this is possible, as in order to remove the flawed area they would have to shave that entire side down - thus changing the size of the top. And if you notice in the photo, it wraps around a wall, so there would either be a gap in the u-shaped cut out for the wall, and/or the overhang on the bookcase side would be non-existent. I don't see how it is possible to account for that.)

    miters - He also said the miter in someplaces (inside corners) was not done well and said they have since addressed the quality issues at the shop. He said to fix, they would remove the edges (valance part) and do them over. He felt the mitered edges in general "looked pretty good". I pointed out the so-called "good" corners and he said he didn't (did not) think they could do a better job.

    sink profile/scratches - On this he said they would try to do a better job on the profile and COULD remove the scratches.(hmmm)

    All this would require them removing the tops (both) and taking them back to the shop. He told me I could view them before they were reinstalled to ensure I approved and was satisfied with them. Or if I was unable to come view them in person, he would video everything so I could look at it that way. (I personally would not trust this and would find a way to see them in person if that's what it took. They are not THAT far away.)

    I told him that (in Mags words) based on install and repair I was not confident that the workmanship would be any different. And said the only solution in my mind would be to refund the money and start over with someone else.

    He said "and do it a third time?" (Heck, with his solution the counters have to come out anyway so what does it matter to me!)

    He told me to think about and let him know what I wanted to do.

    I know I need to be stronger in these types of situations :( I said I would get back to him.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If I were in this position, I would not allow this company to attempt to repair it again. I think they have shown the level of their ability to date and I would firmly put my foot down and explain that you want your money back. I just would have no confidence that they can provide you with a quality job or they would have done it already.

    I think you have been more than patient and you have to do what is best for you. If they have to take the counter out to repair, what is the difference of going w someone else and starting over? And what if they repair it and it still is not acceptable, what a waste, a lot of stress and having to be firm and ask for a refund anyway.

    And if you go with someone else, I would ask to see their work 'installed' if possible before hiring them. And make sure they had the best reputation from multiple sources.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh and one other thing. I just noticed the heading of this thread and wanted to say that perhaps your friends have sold you a bill of goods, thinking that you expect unreasonable perfection. This example should show you, you are not unreasonable. Don't let someone make you feel bad about a quality you have to see details and to know when something is done right. It is an ability you have and can use for your own good and the good of others. And I can't imagine you being anything but nice about less than perfection, so stick up for yourself and have confidence to use your abilities without apology.

  • jellytoast
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't let him make you feel bad and responsible that the countertops have to come out and be re-done a third time. That has nothing to do with you. You gave them the chance to fix it. I don't really see where you owe them repeated tries.

  • kksmama
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So he might need to look in the mirror in the morning and say "Blackchamois was unreasonable. We messed up that job but we would've eventually gotten it right, which is really super nice and wonderful on our part. Blackchamois is a bad person for not giving us the chance". He might even tell himself that better quality workmanship doesn't exist, that blackchamois will never be happy, and that he is better off for moving on to profitable customers who appreciate his work.
    I say you let him have those thoughts: you aren't responsible for helping him to become Oldryder or Trebuchet. You are responsible for doing what is fair and right for your family and your kitchen. Working with this guy any more isn't smart or fair to anyone.

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    prairemoon2 - Thank you! I agree with you - and after speaking with him and him seeing the issues in person and still saying on some points "it looks pretty good" ... it is clear that our ideas of acceptable are vastly different. I have already contacted another fabricator and made sure they have quartz mitered corner examples in their showroom that I can come see. And I will definitely ask to see installed work in someone's home as well.

    Thanks too for your 2nd post comments. I do try to "pick my battles" so to speak when it comes to detail and "perfection". But I really do admire good craftsmanship and people that pay attention to detail in order to deliver a quality product. I inspect my own work to the same degree and would do the same if I were producing something for someone else.

    Jelly - Thanks! Yes, I am tired of giving second ... and THIRD chances. Can't do it again!

    kksmama - You are totally right! Thank you for that reminder. Too often I am concerned about what other people think instead of doing what it fair and right for me.

    I am planning to contact him tomorrow and telling him I would like my money back. I haven't paid in full so that's a good thing.

    Can't thank you all enough for the support.

    I'll keep you posted until this chapter is closed! Have a great weekend all!

  • romy718
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The last picture you posted of your countertops...stunning. Once this is all resolved, everyday, you'll look at those Raven tops & think "I love them."

  • Gracie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're always going to see the repaired area around the sink because it's in direct light of your window. The resin can't be brought back to its original sheen, no matter how well they try to buff it out.

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Romy - Awww thanks! Yes, I am looking forward to that day! :)

    may - Yup, I agree with you! I can already see what results the "buffing out" leaves since they dulled that damaged corrner by doing the same. The window area will be even more noticable.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BlackChamois - Having an eye for detail and knowing when something is done well, is a great ability to have, but like any ability, your greatest strength can become your greatest weakness. You have to be able to 'turn it off' and accept less than perfect, because we don't live in a perfect world. So I agree, it's quite necessary to 'pick your battles', or you drive yourself and everyone else crazy. :-)

    Look forward to updated photos when you get the counter installed finally.

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    prairie - Couldn't agree with your more. Gotta be able to turn it off or you'll rob yourself (and others) of a lot of JOY! :)

  • Gracie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, there's perfection and then there's obvious damage. There's also the tiny chips along the seam. I think oldryder discussed about this happening when they use an old blade. Your pattern doesn't have big chunks of quartz to chip out like some quartzes and granites, so I'd blame it on the blade. I would think a bigger shop might be able to afford to change their blades more often, so maybe bigger is better in Fabricatorland.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "The resin can't be brought back to its original sheen, no matter how well they try to buff it out."

    Yes it can. It's just that the guys who do it are few and far between.

  • Gracie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had that guy, trained by Caesarstone. On counters backlit with a light source, you will see a duller area. You can show us your samples after your training you mentioned. Will look forward to seeing it, though I know it's almost impossible to photograph that type of thing.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    may flowers:

    Please click on the link below then go to "Portfolio" then "Engineered Stone". I'm certain that if Mr. Lenzini can remove a deep scratch back to factory finish, a small sink scuff will be no problem.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Estone

  • susanlynn2012
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BlackChamois, your Raven counters are beautiful but I would not let them have a third chance as the damage is not acceptable. They do not have the skills to redo this.

    I am also a perfectionist and have learned to sometimes accept less than perfect but this is a poor job and you are not being picky. You paid for a quality install of your beautiful new counters.

    Please keep us updated and please post new pictures.

  • Gracie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tre, his sample is on a small piece of quartz, not an entire countertop, which is all that matters. It's shiny, but I don't know if he brought it back to factory finish. He should have shown his repaired sample next to a factory sample.

    My fabricator caused a 3 x 4" rub mark from Barkeeper's Friend. After polishing for 2 1/2 hours with the Caesarstone method, that mark was blended in. However, it had less sheen than the original, and it was visible because it was in the path of my dining room light. Maybe that would be okay for a repair to damage I caused, but not for a new countertop. Caesarstone is a very reflective quartz, more so than the Pentalquartz that I replaced mine with, so I believe any repair will show, unless you polish the entire countertop.

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Update: I emailed and thanked the guy for coming to see the install and attempted repair issues in person and acknowledging the problems with fabrication and quality control. I told them the only acceptable solution would be to refund my money. I also mentioned that I would put a fair and honest review on AL including our agreed upon resolution.

    They said they were disappointed that I chose this route but would refund my money and "in turn would prefer that I didn't not submit a review"

    My intention is not to tarnish anyone's reputation or throw anyone under the bus but I feel that I am obligated to other AL members to review honestly and fairly. If others had done so I may not be in this situation.

    Thoughts?

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BlackChamios:

    These guys should be bragging about how even when things go bad on their jobs, they still resolve to their customer's satisfaction. It's easy to work with folks when everyone's making money. I want to know what's going to happen if everything starts spiraling down the toilet:

    Contractor review websites are a hot topic among the contractors being reviewed and some have even made the news with a contractor suing a homeowner over a bad review. I’m not sure this is the tactic I would take.

    For contractors considering joining or participating on a site that allows customer reviews, make sure that you’re allowed to respond to complaints publicly. Certain cites like Yelp don’t always allow this. I’ve found out how important this is through experience. A bad review isn’t always a bad thing.

    I’ve been a member of www.homeadvisor.com (formerly servicemagic) for over 5 years and have over a 160 customer reviews. You have to be my customer to post a review; 1 is bad, 5 is best. If homeadvisor called me tomorrow and told me they were removing the couple of 2s and 3s I’d received over the years to boost my 4.68 rating, I’d tell them they’ll do no such thing. My less-than-perfect reviews are pure gold and here’s why:

    Years ago, I was reviewing my credit report. I’d scored 1 after 1 after 1 and then a repossessed car. When you read this you have to think one of two things. Either I’d been paying my bills perfectly for years, stopped making car payments, then resumed paying my bills perfectly for years again, or, there was a mistake on the report. (There was.) This is the same choice that potential customers have when they read my reviews. They read page after page of 5s and 4s and then hit a 3 or a 2. Either I had my brother-in-law write all those glowing reviews (impossible because each review has to come from a referred customer) or I’d run into a few folks that were impossible to please, but I really was that good.

    Fellow contractors, I know this is highly counterintuitive, but when you get a bad review, LET THEM SPEAK. Often, the louder and crazier, the better. Do not underestimate your potential customer’s ability to kook-detect; they are remarkably good at it. Time after time I arrive at a job, the customer looks me in the eye and says, “I read your reviews. What was with the lady with the caulk?” Eye roll. Shoulder shrug. I never say anything bad about former customers; I don’t have to. My new customers have seen right through them; yours will too.

    The most important thing about these reviews is how they change what I’m selling. There are plenty of guys that can fix your countertop but can you trust them? I’m selling trust and value, not top repair. Trust and value sell for a premium for which customers are delighted to pay. I am no longer competing on price. If you haven’t read my reviews, if my reputation has no value to you, then you get no free estimate. We aren’t right for each other. I qualify and book 95% of my jobs from my Laz-E-Boy, and that can only be accomplished when your customers are completely comfortable.

    You can’t buy the credibility that consistent good reviews bring. Customers are constantly searching for vindication that they’ve picked the right guy and good reviews earn the opportunity to begin that search. You’d better embrace it, because this is the way business is done in the Internet age, like it or not. Your potential customers are smarter than you think. Underestimate them and you both lose.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Tre, his sample is on a small piece of quartz, not an entire countertop, which is all that matters. It's shiny, but I don't know if he brought it back to factory finish. He should have shown his repaired sample next to a factory sample."

    may_flowers:

    Your criticism is fair and I agree. The real test can only be in the context of blending a repair into a larger top. Removing scratches is relatively easy; it's the blending that is so difficult. That said, I wouldn't picture it on my web page if I couldn't do it in your home.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BlackChamois, Happy to hear you have resolved your issue with the counter installer. I would have to agree that an honest and fair review is helpful for others. I'm sure if you add how they responded to the problem by admitting the error, intentions of improving quality control and willingness to refund your money, that will help them.

    Hope you can quickly find the person you need to get your job finished!

    I agree with what you report Tre. I read reviews a lot and I have found that to be the case, that if I read the bad review and have the opportunity to read the response to the complaint, sometimes I can figure out whether the complaint was reasonable or not, and even if it was a reasonable complaint, if the service provider fixes the problem with a good attitude, that is what I am looking for too.

    I have to start finding a lot of companies to do some repairs and renovation and I'm not looking forward to it. I have a subscription to Angie's List, but haven't tried to use it yet. I have this nagging thought, that if a contractor or tradesman is really great at what he does, he has so much word of mouth business that he doesn't sign on to a service like Angie's List or Service Magic. But I don't know anyone that has had work done that can refer me to someone, so I think that is the best I can do.

  • Gracie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If I were looking for a fabricator, I would mainly care about the workmanship, so that's what I would review. It doesn't matter to me so much of how they handle problems after the fact. I'm not going to think, "Oh, this guy does a crappy job but he'll refund my money, so I'll give him a chance." Your countertops were damaged and installed anyway, so if you only say that, it speaks volumes of what one can expect from them. I also don't see that an honest review is an effort to tarnish their reputation, so I would get off that guilt trip.

  • jellytoast
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If I were in this situation ... they honored my request, I would honor theirs. I do care about workmanship, but I also care about customer service and how well I am treated by a company. Giving me a refund for a product that I feel is inadequate is, IMO, good customer service. Sure, they should never have installed your countertops in the first place, but they did, and they paid the price for it. Hopefully, they'll learn from that mistake and apply that lesson to their future customers.

    My relationship is with the person I am doing business with, not random people on the internet. If a business treats me well, I would feel no obligation to tell any unfortunate details to the rest of the world. The way I see it, they treated me well, they will likely treat their other customers well. If people choose to rely solely on online reviews as their means to choosing service professionals, they should be willing to accept the risks of doing so. Again, this is only MY opinion.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " If a business treats me well, I would feel no obligation to tell any unfortunate details to the rest of the world."

    Unfortunately, the inverse isn't as often true.

  • Mags438
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As an Angie's list user, I would want to know if a job didn't go well. The reviews on my Angie's list has a couple of sections that I often take note: did they perform the job (yes/no). I scan right past the - they didn't call me back or no; they didn't perform the job. I do read ones where they performed the job. Not all happy customers on my Angie's list version.

    Isn't this how you got burnt? All great reviews from happy folks only. I'd hope that if another customer had a bad experience, they would share; whether on Angie's list or even here on GW. If not, why not just call it a 'vendor promotion' site? If I read about an unhappy customer, my first thought is how they resolved problem; that's where customer service comes into play for me. Can't say I always get the details from reviews...it just didn't work out and he/she refunded my money.

    The vendors gets copy of reviews and they also have opportunity to respond to a review, good or bad.

    I would still do a review. 'I'll give you your money back, if you don't put a bad review on the website I/vendor participate in' and for which, I as a customer pay to be a part of (for the sole purpose of getting reviews), is just plain silly. Not writing a review, is a disservice to yourself as an angieslist user and the rest of the Angie's list community. What's the dealer going to do - write in their response - 'oh I said I would give them their money back if they didn't write me a bad review.' Of course not; one has nothing to do with the other.

    Of course, I'd write it, after I got my money back and the check cleared. ;)

    Just my $.02

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    They are coming tomorrow to remove the counters. They haven't yet refunded my money - I assume they will after the counters are removed. I am not concerned that they won't ... boy then they really wouldn't like my review!

    Speaking of reviews, I do plan on writing one. I owe it to the other Angie's List users as that is why I joined the site in the first place - to give and receive information that would be helpful in selecting a competent and service oriented vendor.

    So here I go again trying to salvage my sink without damage to the sink or the cabinet. Wish me luck!

  • Mags438
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good luck. You'll prolly be seeing this kitchen daily that your current downtime and frustrations might seem worth it all in the long run. Good luck, I think you'll be happy in the long run (that's what counts, right?).

    My Angie's list has reviews a yr from the date of job performed, so I don't think there's a rush to get the review done. My memory could be a little fuzzy if I waited that long though. :)

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wouldn't let them touch the counters without payment, preferably in cash. No way.

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Update on the job above: They did remove the counters and refunded my money.

    Update on the NEW job: Found another contractor/fabricator - a well respected and reputable one. Visited the showroom (twice), was given refernences and had extensive discussions regarding craftsmanship, my prior experiences (including pictures) and my concerns.

    They templated a few weeks ago and installed yesterday. While they "appear " fine, there are a few things that disappoint me a bit:

    1) At templating, I had talked with them about the projection past the face frame and we agreed on 1.25”. However, some areas are 1.25” and others are 1.5”:
    - The short ends of the sink counter (to the left and right of the sink ) - the projection is 1.25”
    - The sink edge is 1.5”
    - The counter to the right of the range projects past the face frame 1.25” while the projection of the counter (peninsula) to the left of the range is 1.5” (My cabinet maker and I did check and the cabinets are plane so the variance was not to accommodate for unevenness of the cabinets.) Hopefully with the range in between the variance won’t be noticed.

    2) The peninsula overhang over the bookcase end varies by almost .25” from end to end. And about .25” of the subtop at the range opening is exposed.

    3) We also discussed the thickness of my tile backsplash (with a sample on hand), however, the gaps between the wall and counter are almost twice the thickness of the tile. I’m hoping that this will be a non-issue once the thinset is factored in.

    (see pic for general layout: The large piece is shaped like such '[' and the counter in the lower left is the peninsula and is bascially a big square piece)

    Not sure why the variances if the template was done accurately and followed during fabrication.

    As I said, it "appears" okay ... but WHY is it so difficult to get something done right?!

    I REALLY REALLY don't want to go through another tearout and redo ... is it justifiable to ask for a discount?

    Advice? Thoughts?

  • Mags438
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How's the sink area?

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Mags! The sink cutout itself is "fine". Is that what you mean?

    A little strange though is that the miter edge on the peninsula is silky smooth all the way around, but on the other piece not so much. It's not "rough" but doesn't feel as smooth.

    This post was edited by BlackChamois on Sat, May 10, 14 at 20:57

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The sink edge is straight all the way across but projects 1.5" past the face frame, whereas the two shorter side pieces project 1.25" past.

  • romy718
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Was the person that you spoke to regarding your expectations & concerns part of the install crew? I don't know about the 1/4" difference in projection. Is it noticeable? I never measured mine. If I wasn't out of town, I'd be in there measuring right now. As far as the mitered edge in some areas not being smooth, I'd ask if they can fix that. It may be a simple fix.
    I'd want an assurance from the tile installer that the gap between the wall & the countertop is not going to be a problem.

  • Mags438
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, meant the sink cutout. I would think that is harder to do well.

    When you see these various areas from the different angles, is it obvious something's off? I ask because I live in an old house and I was asked by a contractor - do you want it level or do you want it 'to look level'? It was an ah-ha moment for me. There is a difference.

    BUT, I know how you feel. I have those perfectionist tendencies as well. Pretty bad at times. :)

    I would try to live with it for a few days and see how I felt. From the stage these pics look, you're almost home! In my current kitchen reno, I don't like how parts of the floor look. I've been trying to live with it for a while since I had to get cabs in and keep project moving forward. I've been at mine since jan. so I have that 'it's dragging out' feeling. (Poor planning on my part).

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BlackChamois, I was very specific regarding the overhang on my counters, too. Yet they are different on either side of the range. I had planned to get a slide in range with the little flange that would fit against the countertop edge ... the different overhangs would mean one side wouldn't fit like the other. So I nixed that range and got a free-standing instead so the difference isn't noticeable.

    There were a few other things that I was somewhat disappointed with, but for the most part everything looked really good.

    The one thing that really bothers me about these sort of posts is why are the customers discovering these things? Why aren't the installers checking all these tolerances while they are still on the job?

    If I were you, I would check the opening for the range carefully to make sure it is the correct width all the way back to the wall. The range I ended up getting fit in without a fraction of an inch to spare! They messed up on the overhang in the front, but at least they got that part nice and square and it looks great.

    My advice would be to focus on the good things about the installation and don't make a fuss over the small things if you decide they are acceptable enough to live with. That gap between the wall would concern me, though, if the tile wasn't going to cover it. You are also going to need a line of caulk between the countertops and the backsplash, and it can't just hang there in midair ... the backsplash will have to extend a bit over the countertops. IMO, there is no good reason to be that "off" ... isn't that what templating is for???

  • Mags438
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jellytoast post: Yup.

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    romy - No, she was not part of the install crew. We spoke mainly about my previous issues (sink cut out, mitered edges, mitered corners) and overall craftsmanship/quality. But she is basically the owner of the business and should know what her crew is/isn't capable of.

    Good idea about checking with the tile installer. (I am kicking myself that I didn't just tell a little white lie to the guys and say that I was not having a backsplash and therefore they needed to minimize any gap. But I "trusted" that they knew what they were doing. Ha!)

    Romy/Mags - The difference in the overhang is not necessarily noticable, however, I don't have any of the drawers/doors on, and also don't have the slide in range in place so I may not have the best perspective yet. The rest of the cabinets are going in next week.

    jellytoast - Maybe I will see if I can slide my range in place and see how it looks. Too late for me to switch out to a free standing one. Mine has been sitting in the box in the garage for over a yr! AND... they cut the counters SHORT of the cabinet and subtop (on the left side). At least with the slide in, there should be the part of the cooktop that sits atop the counters.

    In terms of the gap between the wall and counter, they did fill it with white caulk. My issue is just that it's so wide and I had wanted the tile to extend over the counter as you state. In my case, I am concerned that it will look like the backsplash is sitting on a surface of caulk.

  • angela12345
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    GAPS IN BACK OF COUNTER IN REGARDS TO BACKSPLASH

    We had the same problem with a gap between the counter and the wall. If I ever get another countertop, I will also tell them there will be no backsplash so they need to minimize the gap. I was ABB for 3 years, so it wouldn't even be untrue !!

    You do need to caulk on any change in plane (for example, vertical to horizontal, or vertical corners) which means you will caulk between the backsplash and counter. You would have caulk at the base of your tile anyway. Plus there will be thinset on the wall that the tile adheres to which will make the tile+thinset be a little thicker than just the tile alone. I wouldn't want the caulked area to stand out from the wall that much past the face of my tile though. And I certainly wouldn't want white(!) caulk. My granite guys used black caulk. It wasn't very noticeable that there was a caulked gap at the back of the counter for the 3 years it took me to get my backsplash installed.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Black Chamois:

    It appears from your picture that you have no filler on the right side of your dishwasher opening. I'm hoping it just hasn't been installed yet and that you will have 24" when it is. If not and since your cabinet doors are overlay, the overhang and gap problems are going to be the least of your worries.

    This post was edited by Trebruchet on Sun, May 11, 14 at 8:17

  • julia42
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Re: dishwasher

    Even if the doors are inset, the DW door will interfere with hardware if there's no filler. This was our kitchen layout for four years, and one of the the big motivations to remodel. Every time we wanted to open the dishwasher, we had to shift it around in it's opening - very annoying!

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Angela - thanks! I will suggest that the tile guy use dark grey caulk if it's an issue.

    Tre - yes, there will be a filler. Currently the opening measures 28 inches.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " ... AND... they cut the counters SHORT of the cabinet and subtop (on the left side). At least with the slide in, there should be the part of the cooktop that sits atop the counters."

    Seriously? I would not be at all happy about that. You are always going to be limited as to what range you can get should you need replacement in the future.

    I will say that the difference in my overhang is not noticeable at all with the free-standing range as the front of the range sticks out a bit past the countertops. I had a KA range picked out previously and the way it was designed to fit against the front edge of the countertops would make the difference very noticeable.

    I sure hope you get all this worked out to your satisfaction.

    This post was edited by jellytoast on Sun, May 11, 14 at 12:09

  • polkadotz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ack, I have to admit this thread is sending me into a panic mode!! We are about 2 months from needing the countertop. If I could interrupt with an aesthetic question, BlackChamois, how do you like the color of the Raven? And how did you resolve the projection issues?

  • function_first
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I really like the individual components you have picked out, from a pure tonal perspective, they go fine together. However, tile is tricky, and the amount of “noise” it makes is never fully realized until the entire backsplash is installed. While it seems you have picked a neutral tile with calm, well-behaved colors, the busy-ness will come from the pattern/grout lines, both the asymmetrical arrangement as well as small tiles (more “noise”), and the noise will be amplified by it position next to a countertop with a lot of noise. This is commonly referred to as the “too many clowns” effect around here. If I were you, I would take a look at the thread linked below where someone tore out a backsplash right after it was installed due to the too many clowns problem. Your choices, while seemingly benign when considered individually, may produce a harsh and noisy result that could lead to either buyers remorse or a costly do-over. Another thought is that you slow down the choice process, and invest in some color photocopies after the countertop has been installed. Cover a wall with color photocopies of the tile, and see what you think --- someone did this here (forget who, but she got great results with her tile, so it clearly works!) color photocopies cost about a dollar each at Kinkos -- $50 could save you a few thousand in tear out costs.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Not where you want to end up

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Update!

    The installers did come back out and only wanted to focus on the projection issue, which they basically blamed on the cabinets being "out of square" (according to them).

    On cutting the counter short, they kept saying it was so that the range would fit. (Apparently it extended into the range opening and they had to trim it. Okay, fine, but they didn't have to trim it too SHORT. Had they cut it in line with the base cabinets it would have been just fine. Afterall, how else was my range going to fit if the cabinet opening was too small?!) Finally they admitted that the guy who was trimming it took too much off.

    On the gap between the counter and the wall, the one installer (who claims to have tile experience) said, "I assumed you were installing backer board to tile over. You shoudn't tile directly to the wall." Not sure why he would make an assumption on someone else's project. Since when is he responsible for my backsplash installation?

    At the end of the meeting, they said they would remove and replace the peninsula if I wanted to go that route. I did consider it, but was concerned about my cabinets being damaged and loosened from the base with the force required to remove the counters from the subtop.

    In addition, after I got the doors and drawers on and the range installed, the projection issue was not noticable. I also decided that since I don't plan to replace the range anytime soon, it would hide the section that was cut too short.

    Lastly, I had my tile installer take a look and he thought he'd be able to compensate for the big gap.

    So ... instead of replacing the counter, I asked for a discount. They only took $300 off, which they said was what it would cost them to replace that portion of the counter. (I was a bit surprised, but I guess they have a pretty big mark-up).

    Polkadotz - I LOVE the Raven. Glad I stuck with that color. It looks great! (I will post some pics after I get a couple other elements completed.)

    Function First - Thanks for your feedback. I am familiar with the post you referenced. Neither my tile, nor my counters are that noisy. I plan on doing a white subway tile and white grout, so I don't think I could go any more calm than that! :) Also, the Raven, though it has some pattern - more like a mottled effect, it is very subtle. I wouldn't consider it noisy at all. Point taken though regarding the assymetrical arrangement/grout lines but I think that the white grout will counteract any "noise" there.

  • Mags438
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Glad to hear that the countertop will soon be in your rear view mirror. :)

  • Vertise
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think Function mis-posted. There was a noisy backsplash thread going on yesterday.

    What happened with the bad corner repair and mitered edges?

  • blackchamois
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mags - Yes! Me too!

    Snookums - The bad corner and mitered edges was the first install with a different company. They took them out and fully refunded my money. This is install #2 through another place.

  • Vertise
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oops! I did read all that the other day. This has been a tough counter! Very pretty though.

  • Mags438
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Glad to hear that the countertop will soon be in your rear view mirror. :)