Did you ask him for a bid based on plans and specifications? I assume, therefore, that that's what he gave you - a bid based on those plans and specs. You can ask for line item detail, but the bid includes everything you asked for, including his profit on those items, so he may not be inclined to have you "source things elsewhere" - everything you source elsewhere means less profit to him.

It is not uncommon. One reason may have to do with why he prices where he does.
Let's say the expensive guy uses either a pricing program or a spreadsheet. Pops in items and comes up with a total. That's it, that is the price, nice and itemized.
Other plugs it in, then considers the scope of the job, looks at logistics, overlaps, talks with his guys, relates it to past jobs, then massages the price. You get a clear itemized scope but not itemized prices. Want to pull out this or that and play games, you lose the massage.

May not be what is going on, but it is a common approach for outfits that are not slaves to a pricing program.
Kind of like mechanics. Go to the dealer and the book says this repair takes 4 hours, so that is the bill. Go to another place and it takes them 3.

A GC we have used for past projects does their bids in the way you described: Extremely detailed scope of work document but no line item costs.

For a recent large project, I wanted them to bid but this time, wanted line item costs so that I could compare with our other three bids. It isn't the way they usually do things, but they obliged. I even showed them the format (no numbers) of one of the other bids, and explained why I found the information to be so helpful.

I can't tell from your post if you actually asked them to do this for you, and they said "no", or maybe you didn't ask? They would be nuts to be out of the running over some paperwork--definitely ask!

I don't know if is common, but the guy who did our bathroom did it that way. Detailed scope of work, bottom line price. He did a great job and came in at the bid. I think he prices that way in part to avoid negotiating over every single item and to leave himself some wriggle room within the total price. If he comes in low on the soapstone because he found a remanant I approve of that makes up for ending up higher than expected on the tile. I liked the guy and he had solid recommendations from multiple people and I was able to see some of his work two or three years down the road. I felt like all of that was more important to me than an item by item bid.

Thank you all for your feedback! I guess I was just thrown off by the summary level bid. All of your points are well noted and I greatly appreciate the input and items I should be considering.

I'll add this ... even if a bid includes line-by-line prices, those prices are often discounted given the entire scope of the job. Because they are already there and set up on the job, they can afford to do certain things for less due in part to the NUMBER of things they are doing. Start deleting things and it really cuts into their profit. This could happen ... the customer asks for a line by line price, then they will select only one or two small things out of the proposal and say that's all they want to do "right now", but those small things are often the things that are discounted the most. The customer doesn't understand that the total price is a "package deal."

Again, hollysprings has taken the words right out of my mouth.

" a deli sandwich, hold the mustard I brought my own. "
saves me how much?

In my case, our GC gave very high-level line items (about 8 or so) for the whole remodel. He ended up making a lot of money on some items, and losing money on others. These are estimates because you never know until you open up the walls how much things will really cost.

If I cherry-picked the ones I liked, he would have lost money overall and I wouldn't have had the benefit of having a real GC own the whole project. Not worth it for either party.

Agree with calumin. If you nickel and dime GC, as I call it, both parties will wind up unhappy. In return, they will nickel and dime you for everything. An important lesson I learned 20 yrs ago. Even if they take the job under those terms, you could be left holding the bag. Whole idea is for a win-win situation.

I went with a very fair summary bid and have been more than pleased so far. There were things, like cab install, I knew I would not have GC involved with, but left dollars as is. There were surprises at the demo stage, but never heard a word from GC about more money. Instead of taking a short cut, he took the longer and more expensive route. But I don't like to be nickel and dimed to death. Again, it's about a win-win.

Great comments here!

I'll just add that you already got 3 estimates and his bid is inline with the other two. You could probably save some money, but is it worth not getting the 'package deal' and the peace of mind that comes with that?

Start hiring your own people for this and that, then all the subs will argue over things, not have as much communication, too many chiefs, bad-mouthing each other....drama, drama, drama! Also, get a scratch on your wood floors? Let the finger pointing begin. If you have ONE GC in charge, he will ultimately have to deal with it. This is why people pay the premium for a GC to oversee their projects.

Thanks again for the feedback. FWIW - I was not setting out to nickel and dime the GC and I understand how my initial post would be interpreted in that way. I agree it has to be a win win and I expected to pay a premium to use a GC. In the past I have typically encountered about a 20% total increase in renos when I use a GC (10% profit / 10% overhead). But with the total price this GC is giving me, I need more transparency on the quality of products being used as well. For example, I asked for direct wire LED under cabinet lighting. While the spec shows that under cabinet lighting is included, I asked for the detail of what he chose and it is a completely different type of installation that has a DC power pack. So I guess at the end of the day, my frustrating is lying with the very detailed product selections that GC may be making to keep his cost competitive, but ultimately it may not be what I have asked for. Bottom line - I need to make sure the scope is 100% detailed with what I expect to have included so the price is accurately reflecting those products.

I can't imagine letting a GC pick out anything other than general materials like plywood and drywall.

For materials that he provides, such as lighting, ask him for your "allowances" for those materials. Tell him that you would like to select those items yourself. I do this a lot with my clients. In the bidding process, I don't always know every detail of what they want. So, for example, on my estimate, I'll have a "backsplash allowance" of $300 for materials only (not labor) or $1250 for lighting (cans, pendants, undercabinet...etc). Then they can select what they want. If the price goes up or down, I adjust the invoice to show the price, not the allowance.

Ask him to detail the specifications for what he has included -- the price doesn't matter unless he has spec'd something you're not happy with, you change the spec, and the price goes up. Ex. He spec'd builder-grade cabinets, and you wanted Crystal or Plain & Fancy.

Ah yes, sounds like you do need more detail. In the scope of work my bathroom contractor provided, he specified things like soapstone countertop, custom vanity with dimensions, etc. Some items were not specified like the lighting because I didn't have any particular choices made that early in the game. But all the things that were important to me were listed.

I had a similar contract with my GC: a summary that detailed the aspects of the job (eg, install 4 ceiling cans, customer to provide fixtures, install cabinets, customer to provide cabinets, install gfci outlets, etc) and a total for the scope of work. My expectation was that if the scope stated that he would install something, that meant he would be providing any items needed to do that.

And some things I didn't research thinking that he would just know what to do-- like placement of the relocated phone jack and associated power outlet in a way that would actually let me put the phone there and look nice.

So, the only difficulties with that contract that I ran into involved a lack of detail in some aspects: the quality of the drywall sub, issues with fit and finish/ quality of material used (so some things I should have thought more about and specified in advance), only one GFCI installed. Since I ended up refinishing the found pine floor (at my expense) instead of installing the engineered, he found reasons to not discount for the work not done -- like, they had to buy a $19 fitting for the frig water line installation, and a line for the gas stove install, and screws for the pulls -- and that supposedly made up for not installing a floor.

I understand expecting to get so much for a job but he was saved a day of labor too. It wasn't enough to sour me on the guy, though. It wasn't worth fussing about in the end, to me. To someone with tighter resources it surely might have been. But, it couldn't have been planned ahead for.

Some of the issues (and they really aren't major, in the total scheme I feel) kind of are his crew nickel and diming me -- Claiming something wasn't mentioned in the scope of work (it was), not wanting to finish this, not wanting to fix that, wanting to be done and on to the next job and have no further labor expense on mine. Problems I think can happen with any kind of contract.
So, my advice is to discuss any detail that you can think of and make sure it is clear who is providing what, to what quality (like in my case-- style of trim around windows, lack of insulation behind the over-stove exhaust fan, the exact number of GFCIs and where, new location of phone line).

I'm in a similar situation now, and it's reassuring to read through these responses to get a sense of what is common practice for a GC, and what is not.

Right now, I've got 3 bids--one that was extremely detailed; one more generalized but still with grouped items and allowances priced out; and one that is just, literally, a price. It turns out that, of the three GCs, I like the work of the last one the best, and I've been very comfortable speaking with him, but just getting that price alone leaves me feeling a bit nervous.

My issue is not so much that I need to know the cost of all of the line items, but I do want a comprehensive list of what tasks/items the price includes (i.e., Statement of Work), and it would be helpful to have the allowances for appliances, etc. I've given him *my* list of what I expect it includes, and he agreed and clarified other items that we'd discussed at various times, but just so we can ensure we're on the same page, I'd really like to get that comprehensive listing from him before hiring him. I've asked him for that information, and am in the process of contacting his former client references, so I'm hopeful that we can work it out.

It sounds like with your Statement of Work and overall price, you're at least in a slightly more transparent situation--good luck!

" ... but just so we can ensure we're on the same page, I'd really like to get that comprehensive listing from him before hiring him."

Tell him just that ... put it all in writing if he wants the job. Getting the "price alone" SHOULD make you feel nervous. The last thing you want is to be arguing about this stuff down the road. A clearly written scope of work and contract that is fair to both parties will do much to alleviate any disagreements later. Don't cave ... you'll live to regret it. If he can't be bothered to put what he proposes to do for you in writing, I wouldn't hold out much hope that he'd be that gung ho when it comes to doing the actual work.

Thanks, Jellytoast. I agree--the alternatives were to have a good discussion with him and have him clarify everything in writing, or hire someone else. Thankfully, he was very responsive to my questions and has given me exactly what I requested, so I'm feeling much more comfortable now.

Particularly, in looking at the difference in allowances between his quote and another one I got, I can see that the price of the work is very similar to that of my second choice, which gives me more confidence in his quote. Now I'm off to check his references, and if all checks out...here we go!

Great outcome - hope it works out!

You can have transparency without resorting to a nickel-and-dime process. I think OP made it clear it was the former he/she was seeking.

But, in receiving bids in the past, I appreciated that providing them takes significant time on the GC's part--I suspect several hours, maybe, especially if they're not using a pricing program. So, without a signature on the dotted line, perhaps this GC takes the bid only so far without itemizing, unless the customer asks for it. If the customer requests more information about pricing, then the GC should oblige. If you don't ask...

So, ask. And asking for details about pricing doesn't constitute some sort of breach of etiquette, for goodness sake. This is an investment, and you want your money used in the best way possible for you, without having to tiptoe around a GC's method of pricing. If you were to take the money you're going to spend on this remodel and invest it with a brokerage firm, would you refrain from asking about fees and associated costs for fear of insulting them?

I've never come across a GC whose business acumen was so sensitive that asking fair questions about pricing and expecting transparency would impact the quality of his/her work. If that's the case, they should move on to the next bid.