I think sink and range will be too close to each other if you move it under the window. Are you also moving the range towards the pantry-fridge area.

Is it possible to move the backyard door where you have the window now and have an L kitchen? Something like this.

Thanks, Sena. A few of the alternate designs in my link have the door where you suggest, which works pretty much in terms of the kitchen, but that would make me have to walk around the house to get to the outdoor seating area & garden.

In the summer, I'm in and out of that door CONSTANTLY & going to the garden, so the door there would be a pain. Plus, I have parties in the summer, and most of the congregating happens outdoors at the table & chairs, and it kind of seems like a long walk (though, in suburban terms, it's a very short walk.)

Will think about the stove/sink distance. If I move the stove farther from the sink, though, it will be right up against the fridge I think. Thanks so much for your input.

Ugh. Every design had faults!
How did you draw that layout?

This post was edited by carrieb on Sun, Feb 9, 14 at 21:06

My dear MIL has a similar layout to your proposed one, and the U is tight. That corner cabinet is impossible to get to because you have so little wiggle room for your body, once you open the cabinet door. You are really better off with the galley as she drew it instead of the U, or make your U an L and leave off the peninsula, but my favorite is the one with the counter and range all the way across the back wall.

bpathome - the galley in layout # 1 or #5 in my link?

What's the number on the one you like?

I should add that I really, really want more light & windows in the kitchen. The view out a proposed new window and/or glass door on the west wall would provide the most light & the very best view of the garden. So, whatever I do, I want at least a window, maybe a door or both on that wall.

Also, I'd really like to be able to look out the window when washing dishes and/or sitting at the table to eat. I'd like both - I have neither option right now, but would settle for one of the two if that's all I can realistically get.

I looked at all but all looked quite tight (I'm FAT!)

This I liked, but if it's the fridge next to the bump out wall you may not be able to open drawers or door freely.

Another option for you though I'm not sure how big the pantry can be so the doors can open without hitting the bumpout. You can use a cart with wheels and can park when not in use to that area in front of the pantry cab.(. BTWI have a program called Home /Designers).

Thank you, Sena. Yes, that's the fridge next to the bumpout in that layout proposal. Thanks for posting it. I do like your proposal a lot. I'm not sure if I'd need the cart at all - I have one now that never moves - I use it for storage and it kind of looks cluttered.

I'm really hesitant to lose both the door and the window on the south facing wall. My little row house is small and fairly dark - and I garden for a living - so losing view(s) of my garden, let alone natural light would be really hard for me.

And, Sena - you're right - they all are tight. My house is only 12 feet wide, and with the basement steps and the steps upstairs and me being so intransigent about giving up window space...

I think you'll need some uppers in the kitchen. Some have glass backsplash, but I'm not sure if you can have it behind the range or not.

Maybe you can have the pantry and fridge as in my first drawing and have a tall window where I drew the door. The cab next to the range would have to be smaller so pantry, fridge door wouldn't hit it. I think you have that much space. The KD can give you a more precise drawing. Like this

Thanks, so much, Sena. I'm starting to think that maybe I want to get rid of the peninsula. With my desire to keep/expand windows, thus obliterating the space for uppers, I'm finding myself with very little storage. I'm not much of a cook, so don't really need a huge amount of counter space - but I do store cereal, tupperware containers, etc.

I have not been getting follow-up email notifications for the last couple of weeks - on my own posts or on others when I do click the "send follow up" button. Have others been having this problem? I sent GW an email last night alerting them to the issue.

The ones I liked were labeld Option 1 and next choice Option 4, but the 4 with the sink on the peninsula and no U. I like Sena's, too, they are open. I agree that you want to keep windows on that back wall.

Is there room for the table between the stairs and the outside wall?

Thank you, bpathome.

Yeah, the KD originally had the sink on the peninsula. Which I may ultimately go for - though I'd really like to have the sink at a window. Also, (at least now) I don't have a dishwasher, so dishes sit out on the counter/drainboard to dry, and having dishes on the peninsula would visually clutter the entire house.

Which outside wall are you thinking of for the table? The one where the fridge & pantry are in sena's more recent drawing? Or exactly where it is in that same drawing? Right now, it is almost there - attached is an image:

For a visual, I just moved my table a bit over - across from the stairs where it is in sena's drawing:

Thanks for the pics, your home is so adorable! And the table space is fine since you already have it. I really like Sena's layouts, and agree that whatever you do on the long wall, a window on the back wall somewhere will be nice, especially for the view from the front door.

Is the closet between the stairs and the kitchen the coat closet/general storage? Does it go under the stairs?

Aw, thanks, bpathome!

I hate the idea of giving up ANY window space, and the back door is glass. I guess I'm willing to give up one of those (the window or the door) but not both, even with a new window and/or door on the other wall.

The door between the stairs & the kitchen goes to the basement steps, and, yeah, I do hang coats (& leave brooms, extra cat food, etc. in the landing...) My stairs going upstairs are spiral, going downstairs is a straight shot, though, since it goes under the upper stairs, you have to duck so as not to hit your head going up & down to the basement.

I like a combo of the kd's counter/range run on the far wall with windows pn either side of the range, and Sena's L. But is there room for the refrigerator and the counter in that corner? Perhaps if the base cabinet goes to 18 or even 12" deep there, there would be room for the fridge and still room to get into the cabinets. Shallow cabs are fine for barware and dishes.

bpathome - I'm directionally challenged. With corner are you asking about for the fridge?

I just got back from my sister's place, armed w/ plans & questions. She's had some experience re-designing her own kitchens, and I thought she had some good feedback.

First, she liked the option # 4 that I have above best of all, but agreed with the KD that the sink should be on the peninsula, not in front of the window. Both the KD & my sister said that corners can be pretty awkward spaces to deal with, and me, having two of them so close together would be a pain. My sister also demonstrated her corner cabinets & showed me why she doesn't love having to have them.

Also, my sister wondered about putting a door (maybe a double - Dutch - door) where the proposed new window is, and then putting a window on the other side of the peninsula. There may be issues with the door hitting cabinets that won't work having the (glass)door in the kitchen, but (and this, for me, is a big but) I have a brick patio on the other side of the proposed kitchen window, but garden soil on the side with the proposed door. Putting a door in the kitchen there would be soooo much better in terms of my outdoor space. That is, if having a kitchen will be OK with a door swinging into it. I know I'd probably have to put a door stop on the floor or the cabinets.

Also, having a window (instead of a door) on the other side of the peninsula would be way easier in terms of the dining table - the table could be pushed up against the window & I would not have to worry about walking around it to get outside, chairs in the way, etc.

The fridge & pantry would be against the adjoining house - though I'm not certain of exact setup.

What do you think?

New proposal:

I had a thought looking at some of your plans, and reading about the door issue and you wanted to walk out to the backyard directly. In the 2D drawing in Sena's post @ 22:31, it gave me an idea.

The stairs come down into the kitchen and then there is a door with what looks like a landing, is that to the basement? Can that landing be eliminated and the door to the basement be directly under the stairs? Perhaps build a landing on the other side of the basement door?

If you could get that landing and doorway out of there, you could put a sliding door to the backyard where the kitchen sink is in that drawing and the kitchen cabinets can be like a galley kitchen with two parallel runs of cabinets with no upper cabinets on the run that abuts the stairs and the Refrigerator remaining on the back wall opposite the sliding door.

So there would be no window on the wall that had the stove on it in that drawing. The only window would be the sliding door, but you could make it large. That would gain you a lot of space for more cabinets and counters and you would get a lot of light, a view to the yard and direct access to the yard., that would be a trade off for the pantry that I imagine you would lose. And maybe you could put floor to ceiling cabinets for storage on that wall that has the stove, once the window is out of there.

It is a real departure from the plans you've been looking at, and if nothing can be done about what I thought was the basement door and landing, I guess it's a moot point. I'm sorry that I am not able to make drawings to illustrate the idea that I had, I hope you can follow my thought.

If you prefer the door at that spot, then peninsula it is. I wonder if the door can swing outwards or be a pocket door.

Prairiemoon - not sure if that would work - the landing includes a step down, and the stairs above it lower the ceiling level going down to the basement. Getting rid of the landing would buy me an extra six-ish square feet, which would be nice, but it would eliminate the place to hang coats, umbrellas, scarves, bags & to leave the broom, workboots, etc. Am going post a photo or two below of the way the stairs go, though.

While I'm willing to give up one of the two windows (well, one is a glass door, but...) on the back wall, I'm not willing to give up both. I already have an entire long wall of my house that will never have any windows before it adjoins another house, and not having windows anywhere on my back wall would make me claustrophobic.

Where would you put the sink in your scenario? Where the landing is? II think that would block access to the basement steps.

Hi sena - our posts crossed.

I thought about a pocket door, but my walls are solid brick... I think that probably rules a pocket door out. My bathroom & bedroom doors are both pocket doors.

I suggested a door that swings out to the KD, and she basically said that it is just not done on exterior doors - especially not if I want a screen on the door, which I would.

Carrie, you’re right, I don’t know what I was thinking of. That would never work without blocking access to the basement. I had a small space to work with in my kitchen, only 11.5ft x 10ft, but after we took out a wall into the DR, we had 22ft in length to work with, but we kept the DR and just used the space between as a peninsula with seating and had room for a tall floor to ceiling cabinet. You don’t have that luxury and you have a lot of obstacles to work around.

Sorry I couldn’t be more help.

Thanks for your offering of help, prairiemood. This is a challenge, for sure, and suggestions & questions are making me think about things in new ways, even if those ideas don't ultimately work out!

There is a photo on Houzz of an exterior kitchen door that swings out, and the screen door hangs on sliding barn door hardware (inside the house), and it slides away into a little pocket between the wall and the fridge. That might be doable for you. Sorry I don't have a link, but if you search for screen door on barn door hardware you might find it. If I recall correctly, the screen door was painted red, and it looked just great!

OK found it, here you go:

Here is a link that might be useful: [interior sliding red screen door on barn door hardware[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/lu-in-dave-squirrel-hill-pa-contemporary-kitchen-phvw-vp~2789138)

Smiling - I love that door! Maybe something like that could actually work - am going to see if the KD will go for it!

This post was edited by carrieb on Mon, Feb 10, 14 at 21:24

Smiling, I now have a new Ideabook on Houzz - and it's all doors at the end of galley-ish kitchens. Here's another. You've created a monster!

Here is a link that might be useful: [Exterior door in galley kitchen.[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/queen-anne-residence-contemporary-kitchen-seattle-phvw-vp~1496823)

I very much like the last plan, with modifications added. It seems to have the best compromise to meet all of your needs. With the sink in the peninsula, you can visit with company in the LR while you're working or look at the view out the front window. Also, the sink by the table makes clean up easier. You're new kitchen is going to look wonderful.

carrieb, I love that one you posted. Lets in so much natural light. Hope you can get it to work.

Thanks so much Texasgal & smiling.

So, now the big thing I know I'd really like is to switch the door & the window. It seems like an outswing door would make the most sense in terms of saving kitchen space, but not sure if it would be constantly slamming in the wind without annoying interventions that I might forget. Also, I don't have AC (all my windows are open all summer) and chances are I'd leave that door open, so, I need screens to keep the bugs out and the cats in. I'm getting excited now that I feel like the plan is coming together!

Thank you all so much for your help - and, sena, I love your drawings! My arguing with everything anyone suggests is a function of being a bit overwhelmed, and, maybe, in part, my cultural New York Jewish heritage. But I love the advice. Please keep giving it and let me know if my disagreeing sounds ungrateful.

You don't sound ungrateful at all, Carrie. I never took any of your (or any OP"s) comments as disagreeing. It's your house, and naturally you know best what would work for you. If any of my comments made you feel like that, please blame it on my poor wording (not a native speaker, as you probably noticed already).

Btw I was just looking your hand drawn layout, and lovely pictures of your home and all of a sudden I met Chloe and Del. Can't say I'm much of a cat lover, but they are something different, never seen such eyes (knock on wood!).

I have a rough idea, if basement door can be moved to the other wall.. Before I go any further let me just post it. Even if it's possible, it might mean a lot of corners to turn, not sure where table would go and could be tight (didn't do any meter-foot conversions yet), so no problem if it can't work for you.

Thanks so much, sena. I didn't notice at all that you were not a native speaker, your wording has been perfect. I am impressed by your generosity of spirit, let alone time.

I never thought of moving the basement door, and I don't see any reason why that couldn't happen. Putting the peninsula where you have it buys me several feet of space in the kitchen. I like that your most recent layout gives me a window back - though I'd have no place for any uppers, and I think at least one upper not far from the sink for dishes & glasses makes sense.

Also, there's only 34" from the corner (bottom left in your drawing) of the back wall to the window, so, not enough room for both a fridge & a pantry cabinet - though I will be going with a fairly small fridge (maybe the 28" w one I've been looking at.)

I like the openness of your drawing, though the space from the front door to the table would be kind of tight. Also, there are plumbing pipes going up the wall in a bumpout about halfway between the bay window & the peninsula, on the same wall as the bay, so (unfortunately) any window or door would have to start farther back along that wall. You can see that bumbout near where the kitchen table is in my photos - it's 32" wide and bumps out 4".

This is so far and all-consuming and also overwhelming. So glad I've got this place, and you people as a resource!

Here's the bumpout location: (it's right where the table is)

Oh, and my Del & Chloe have since died, but here's my current crew (Maddie, Simon & Moishe) doing what they do best (looking cute, of course.)

This post was edited by carrieb on Tue, Feb 11, 14 at 12:26

Carrie, I’m still following along. I loved that photo you linked to in Houzz of the galley kitchen with the glass door at the end of it. I couldn’t see a way for you to do it, but that was what I was thinking of for you only with a slider where the single door was. I liked the single glass door w the window better too, in a small space.

I am looking at the dimensions of your space and you seem to have enough if I am reading correctly your main kitchen space is about 12 x 14. I went out and measured my kitchen this morning and it is actually smaller than yours. We did take the wall down between the kitchen and dining room but there is a peninsula where the wall would have been and a shallow floor to ceiling cabinet also fit in beyond the original kitchen walls. But the entire kitchen space, not including where the stools have to pull out into the dining room, is only 12ft x 10.5ft. It took us a year to do over that kitchen and about 8 months of that was just working on the layout and planning and sourcing materials.

I had some of your same goals, of wanting light and windows, because I like them, but also because without enlarging the space, I thought the window would make it appear larger. And it really did exactly that, because I had forgotten how small that space was and was very surprised when I measured the width as 10 and a half feet this morning. [g]

That window was expensive. I custom ordered it and had to move heating pipes in the wall to get it where I wanted it. It takes up half of the length on that outside wall. It’s six feet of the twelve feet. It’s positioned over the sink and the peninsula with the dishwasher, lower drawers and a glass door cabinet above and the refrigerator to the left of it going into the corner where your back door is now.

I don’t have windows on the wall where your kitchen door is now, just the back door to the yard, which goes out to the side of the house not the back but is not a problem. But a six foot window on the back outside wall was plenty of light and not in the least claustrophobic. And it was custom designed to fit above the counter, so we could have all the base cabinets that would fit under it.

So if a layout could include a large window above cabinets on the outside back wall, maybe you could have a glass door to the back exactly opposite your stairs and that way you will take away the negative impact of those stairs. Then put a run of cabinets along that outside wall from that new doorway into the corner where your back door is now and turn the corner and run it all the way to the back corner. Take out any windows on that side and you have a lot of room for upper cabinets or floor to ceiling cabinets plus the stove. Your gain is the door going out to the back, a large window over the sink and base cabinets looking out over the back. As for the refrigerator, if you move that basement door the way Sena has it in her last drawing, you could put the refrigerator where she has the sink now. If my printer was working I could at least draw what I’m trying to suggest and scan it in and add it here. I hope you can make sense of this idea.

I also noticed that you have much higher ceilings in your space then I do. Mine are barely 8ft tall. So you have room to go to the ceiling with cabinets where you can.

And looking at sena’s last drawing, that is a nice window in the living room, can it be made into a built in seating area instead of a table and chairs?
Like a booth at a restaurant. That would give you more seating without taking up more floor space.

Prairiemoon - I wish it wer 12' x 14'! It is actually 8' x 12' !

Exactly opposite the stairs is a bumpout for plumbing that goes upstairs to the bathroom - so no window or door can go there.

The bay window is only 3'6" from the front door, so I don't think it could accommodate a table that would not block the entrance to the house.

Oh, and I was just looking at the photos of your house again and you are right, not a lot of space between the front door and the bay window for table and chairs. But without enlarging that kitchen/living room space, you just don't have the amount of space you need for everything you need, and the only thing I can think of to do is be creative and try to make everything in that space do double duty.

If you made the bay window a seating area like a booth, maybe you could use a table in front of your sofa that converts from a coffee table to a dining table and the chairs to sit at the table can be used in your living room for seating and moved to the bay window table for eating. I think you could get five people seated there comfortably.

We didn't feel we could move at the time we did over our kitchen and I had to decide how long we were planning on being there and how much money did I want to invest in trying to make it over into what I needed. It would have been easier to move into more space, but…. I decided not to enlarge the space because I didn't want to invest that much into this house and we made do with what we had but the 6ft window was the only feature that would allow me to do that. :-)

I was looking at your KD's Option 4 plan and she had outside dimensions as 14ft 2" x 12ft 3". But I see now that the 14ft went from the bay window to the back door corner. Sorry again.

8x12 is really small! And to have doors and windows and stairs interfering with your attempts to make a floor plan…

Then looking at all the ideas so far, I like the plan that Sena had posted a drawing of on Feb 9th at 20:30. I think that is an open plan and cohesive. I like the way the door is placed next to the stove and gives you glass to the outside on that wall. You have a great work triangle going with the fridge, sink and stove. The table is not in the way of the front door. The basement door doesn’t have to be moved. I like the idea of having the floor to ceiling cabinets next to the fridge and working in a pocket door that slides in along side that tall cabinet, rather than opening out. I would make the window over the sink a little larger maybe. Maybe use a bottom freezer refrigerator with double doors on the top. You may have room for a cabinet above your refrigerator. I put in a deep cabinet that comes out to the front of the fridge and use it for storing long items standing on end, like baking sheets and trays.

Carrie, can the screen be a pleated one (if I'm using the correct term)?

[

[Modern Screen Doors[(https://www.houzz.com/products/modern-screen-doors-prbr1-br~t_697~s_2105) by Oceanside Doors LaCantina Doors

Prairiemoon, you just made me laugh with "you just don't have the amount of space you need for everything you need." Tell me about it! You know my hesitance to give up window space? I've got the same thing going on with garden space. My KD first suggested she bump out a wall to put in a powder room on the first floor - and I refused!

Hi Prairiemoon,

I liked that design of sena's, too. But I don't like where the door is - from the inside, it looks fine, but it lets out to the back corner of my yard, so, to get to the garden and to the outdoor seating area, you have to walk around the house. Granted, it's a small house and not a far walk, but, psychologically, well, it feels like you're walking out into the back corner of the yard & not walking into the garden.

Sena, you mean like a folding screen?

This post was edited by carrieb on Tue, Feb 11, 14 at 15:46

I completely sympathize with you. I had lived in many large homes before moving here. We were not planning on staying, it was a 'starter house'. :-) But things conspired to keep us here and here we are. So when I started to seriously think of redoing the kitchen, all my pent up dissatisfaction just went wild trying to get everything I wanted into that one remodel. It was a process and in the end, I had to accept that the house was never going to be my dream house. I didn't want to 'over improve it'. I did have to redo it though, I couldn't leave it the way it was. So I let go of a lot of things I wanted and looked at the space more objectively to see what could I do that made the most sense for that space. I thought about what would make it more appealing and make sense to someone if I was trying to sell it. And then if I had the opportunity to move into a larger space then I could invest more into a remodel that I loved and not spend all my money trying to make something fantastic out of the current house, something that was always going to be average at best. And I was happy with it in the end. I thought through where every dish and pot and spoon I needed to use was going to go before I hired the contractor. I played around with the dimensions of cabinets and appliances until I knew that was the best I could do. And I rewarded myself for all my effort and good sense, by getting that large window that I wanted, mainly because it was the one thing that made the kitchen the most it could be. And it was WAY better than it was.

I think I do like the last plan I posted - option #4 with modifications. What I don't like about it is:

1) sink looks out over living room instead of out a window (but now it looks at a wall, so it's still an improvement) and

2) Even though I'm putting in a new door - with glass - and probably a new window, too, I'll be giving up one of the two "windows" (one's actually a door, but you know what I mean) on the back wall.

3) My kitchen space (mostly storage) did not magically triple in size.

Mostly, though, I like the new layout. I'm hoping that my placement of the new door & window (opposite the KD's drawing) will be feasible.

This may well be my forever home - at least until I'm too old to make it up the stairs -, and, in a way, it is my dream house. It has charm and character, I have a garden and live within walking distance to stuff in a city I love. The kitchen space isn't wonderful, but I'm not much of a cook, if I were, it would be a much bigger issue.

So, given I think I'll suggest my changes to the KD, and let her re-draw it & then work on details. She does have a bi-level peninsula in her drawing - based on opinions on this forum, I think I'll ask her to make it one level.

Well that makes a big difference if you are planning on staying. Then you should keep trying to get as much of what you want out of that remodel. And if cooking is not something you spend a lot of time doing, that also makes a big difference! We have four cooks in the family and when we are together we spend a lot of time in the kitchen cooking. Being close to the city and having a garden is also a big plus. Not every 'city lover' loves a garden too, so you don't find that arrangement too often.

It sounds like you know what you want and what makes you happy and that should make the whole process easier. I hope you can come up with a plan that includes the things that will make you the happiest with the remodel when it is done.

Thanks so much, prairiemoon. Well, what I want changes from day to day... but at least kitchens are easier than relationships! ~grin~

Truer words were never spoken! :-)

I don't know if folding screen is the same thing. These are also called retractable screen door.

Close up

Open

Closed

{{gwi:1679377}}

Ah, I see sena. Is the advantage of it that you don't have to look through the screen when the (glass) door is closed?

As I understand this screen is installed to the door jamb, so doesn't need a space to slide b/w the wall and the cabinets like the red barn door posted a while ago.. I hope that makes sense.

Oh, that makes total sense. Thank you! I expect that a retractable screen could work either for an swing in or swing out door, which would be helpful.

Here's one with a swing out door

[

[Traditional Screen Doors[(https://www.houzz.com/products/traditional-screen-doors-prbr1-br~t_697~s_2107) by Greenville Specialty Contractors Retracta Screen of the Carolinas, Inc.>

Yikes, another double post! Thank you, sena.

This post was edited by carrieb on Tue, Feb 11, 14 at 21:29