the only thik i can think of is have you thought of flipping your island the other way so it is long ways facing living room it makes it look more like you can entertain your guests that way and go back to a small wall where you have door way enterance now .... so while you are at island preping food you are facing living room and\or people can sit there and not feel like they are in your kitchen as much as you are enteertaining from your kitchen to them who is in your living room ?...if you get what i am saying but it all depends on how you want the flow of your home to go too? sorry if this is not helpfull but i think i would like to at least see a sketch of it like that and see if it opens it up and makes it more welcoming

Do you need that door way from the entry? Or can you just walk a bit further and come into the kitchen around the pantry wall? The potential problem is someone coming around the corner into a hot, open oven door. Otherwise, I love it. I've already told you I vastly prefer a rectangular island (sorry to your dh), and think this one should work for you.

Tyj.portraitkitchens' idea...or at least a variation with the oven protected, but you lose the pantry wall and gain a deeper island. It gets the fridge clear of the island. You could also shorten the island and keep the pantries, or shorten the wall back a bit and lengthen the island for more seats.:

Thanks rhome, your advice has been so helpful throughout this process...I wish I've listened in the beginning about the rectangular island! Would've saved me many hours of headaches in coming to the same conclusion. :)

Tyj.portraitkitchens, thanks for the input as well. I can see what you are saying about the island placement, but I think I like having people sit on two sides of the island for ease of conversation. Also, I think I want the longer island side facing the cooktop for more prep area there.

Rhome, I was thinking it wouldn't be bad to have the island in front of the fridge for a landing spot for groceries, as well as a place to turn and put whatever I'm taking out of the fridge. Is it be better to clear it of the island? I guess I didn't think about the island being a possible hindrance in front of the fridge...

And no, I don't need a doorway by the ovens. I just thought it might be weird to end the run with the ovens, then have bare wall, then the pantry cabinets. I guess I can't picture it very well, but maybe it would look okay. How much space would I need in front of the ovens? About 3-4 feet?

Thanks again!

In terms of function, I think your layout is fine. In terms of proportion, I like your new one, except the opening by the oven, for the reasons Rhome said. I think the pantry is not only useful, but helps define the kitchen space.

Since you like the orientation of the island, etc., why not just modify that opening? Instead of just an opening you could put a half wall, or a window style opening, or you could do a pocket door, perhaps with glass in it to let light in.

Ovens work fine in corners, so the opening is most needed for the openness that you wanted, and I think you can get that without having your guests walk into a hot oven. By semi-closing that opening, you can also have some transitional formality. If it's open people will walk straight into the kitchen, no matter what, and might even get in your way while you're cooking. By having a way of routing them inside from the front door into the dining and living rooms, you can have a more gracious entrance for them. Actually, for that reason, I like something like a pebbled glass pocket door, or pair of pocket doors. And what's great about that is that if someone comes in tottering under a heavy platter or something, you can open up and let 'em in the kitchen! And when it's just folks at home you can leave them open and enjoy the quick route to answer the door, etc.

I agree with the part about easy landing on the initial orientation of the island, and disagree with Tyj--because of the location of the fridge and stove, I would be working at the island opposite them no matter which way the island faces, so therefore better to have the long side of the island on the work side.

I'm sorry your husband doesn't like the rectangular island, but I agree that the first version is awkward to move around, plus will be hard to clean. You can give your island character with the finishes you use. If he cares at all about resale, maybe you can convince him on the basis that "weird doesn't sell" ("weird" being anything that comes on the buyer all unexpected).

I really like your new floorplan and wouldn't mess with it too much.

The pocket door is an excellent idea. Don't know why I didn't think of it, since I have 3 (10-light glass ones) into my kitchen! :-) They do a great job making it closed, but not feeling it is closed off.

These probably don't need answers, since you're probably sticking with your plan, but I'll answer anyway:

The fridge behind the island is OK, but offset would mean standing in front without backing into the island and it being just barely offset, makes it still a simple turn to set things down, which you'd do anyway, even if it was straight across. Also, if it's a one-door, you will stand to that side of it anyway.

4 ft would be best in front of the oven.

Also, if you decide against the pocket door, there are good uses for blank wall and I often wish I had more in my house. Did you see the thread on artwork in the kitchen? Also a good place for a calendar and a message board to keep a shopping list.

alicia hmm now i am conflicted i like how it is open to the front room like that but i dont like how it works with the cooktop and fridge so i am not sure i like my idea now like i said i would like to see it drawn up and now that i see it i dont think it works very well then i was thinking of a l shaped island but not sure how that would look eaither if i had more time i would print it out and sketch a few ideas but as for now just brainstorming for you ...thanks for listening but sorry for that idea cuz i dont like it much now ..lol

Tyj, so funny that you should mention an L-shaped island! That was the initial island that Rhome came up with last fall and I really thought that's what we were going to go with, but I just couldn't make it work right! I think I'm sticking with the rectangle--by this time DH is so tired of me switching things around I think he'll agree with anything. :)

Plllog, thanks for all the great input! I love the idea of a glass pocket door--pretty and functional. And Rhome, thanks for answering my questions as well. I didn't really think through the fridge/island interaction, but I think it will work for me in this plan.

One more quick question...would you leave the message center on the far side of the fridge, or would it be better to scoot everything down that wall and make the fridge the ending point for the kitchen on that wall? I think I like the idea of the message center (a place for mail, bills, cell phone charging, etc.) but I don't want it to be a place for clutter, especially since it is open to the dining room. Any thoughts?

I must say, I'm really excited to be getting positive feedback for this layout!! I've been going crazy with this kitchen, and it is so nice to get good opinions from those of you who know so much more than I do...so thank you!

Alicia

I think it looks very good. MUCH prefer the rectangular island to the awkward L or bulbous thing. Simpler is almost always better. And the pocket door is a nice solution to the hot oven/kitchen-at-entry issues.

Couple little things...2 trashes? I'd prefer the prep sink be where the island trash is. Longer prep space, and I'd want one main trash rather then be emptying two. (But I'd have my garbage drawer for compost scraps in the island. I need to patent that.) And the message center - there I'd put a paper recycling bin in the lower cabinet. Below the inevitable junk drawer. Which would be below the office supply drawer. Raise the counter to a comfortable writing height while standing. And fit the heck out of the wall space: calendar, charging station, place for mail, keys, etc. A place for everything. Done right it could be very narrow (even the 18 inches you show) and open toward the island, with an end wall or panel leaving a clean view from the dining area.

There will be clutter. Plan to corral it.

Plan looks really good. I'd like to cook there.

Alicia,

I think you have the message center in the right location for function. It's not a cooking thing, so it's attached to the kitchen as hub of house, not as food place. The bit of cupboard gives you a little transition space instead of having the fridge in the dining room.

This might be another place for a hardware fix instead of a redesign. Oh, but reading Celticmoon's description (excellent rundown of functions) I realize my mistake: If you can customize at all, rather than a continuation of the cabinetry upper and lower, I'd have the message center face out toward the living room and run at least the height of the fridge. Depending on the space, it might even work two sided, with a mail sorter, junk drawer, etc., on the kitchen side, and messages, calendars, charging, etc., facing the LR.

The way to keep the clutter free is with doors. Doors are your friends. In this case, on the LR side, I'd put slide away doors like you see on TV cabinets. The kind where you open like a regular door, but when it's 90 degrees open you can push it back so it slides into the cabinet. Then you can put things on the insides of the doors, like a calendar and a magnetic white board, which are in plain sight when the doors are pushed in, and can be seen just by swinging them open when they're closed.

If there's a hatch to dump mail through on the kitchen side, there can be a removable bin on the LR side which it has fallen into. Cubbys up, for pending items, little things that get lost, etc., including one for each family member's mail, messages and detritus, with hooks on the front for keys. An angled charging surface (much easier to use than flat) covering a housing for the cords, with a switch on the outside for the power strip so that it's not constantly drawing energy. Cork board on the rear surface underneath all of this, behind the writing height area Celticmoon mentioned.

Okay, you'd need a proper cabinet maker for all that, but it would be so nice to use. ;)

Still, doors are a great way to hide junk. When I moved my computer to the living room (it was too isolated upstairs for the amount of work I do on it), I bought an armoire desk so that in under 5 minutes I can throw all the work inside, close the doors, and have company.

I completely agree...Doors are our friends! And I wouldn't want the message center between the cooking area and the fridge. A member here emailed me a photo of a neat doored message center. If you email me through 'my page' I can forward it on to you. I don't want to risk posting a photo that's not mine.

This plan is a lot better than the previous one.

When I look at the plan, I think about assistants, visitors and chefs vs. where stuff is they would want. By visitors, I mean anyone not connected with family meal preparation.

Chef wants food! Refrigerated and dry. Knives, bowls, cutting boards, spoons, other prep tools and containers. Water, a drain, trash, And fire!

Table setting, cleanup assistants want the dishes, the silverware, the dw and the trash. Prep assistants need some counter space and access to some part of the chefs prep gear. Visitors want ice, the micro, the ref, the dish storage, trash and a seat.

Everyone wants to put stuff down as soon as they enter the house.

So, the arrangement of stuff for the chef and for cleanup promotes exercise. Visitors who are doing snacks may have to wander everywhere. Everyone is going to dump everything on the island. You may find a lot of cut-through traffic on the cooktop side to the ref and the dishes.

So I wonder if a dumping ground - message center could be in the hall instead of the kitchen, or maybe between the hall and the kitchen. If you could have the pantry near the prep space... If clean up and dish storage could be on an accessible edge?

Smaller things! just to say out loud:
-- The ref pretty much blocks the cooker from participating in the stuff going on at the dining table or family room.
-- Turning the island (with or without wall) will connect you more with "the action" - you get to look at where your family is instead of the pantry. Everyone using the stools gets a view instead of part of them watching the ref.
-- Ref side panels take space - about 1.5" each side that gets a panel.
-- 30" ovens fit in a 30" wall oven cabinet.

Thanks for the great ideas about the message center! It seems that all of these things--phones, mail, calendar, shopping list, etc.--always end up in the kitchen anyway, so it will be nice to have a place to corral it. I'll really have to think through everything I want to fit there, as the space won't be very big (maybe a little larger than the 18" pictured). And I'll definitely take your advice about the doors--I love to be able to hide clutter! The entrance from the garage actually comes in on the other side of the dining room, so the message center will be the first thing we hit on our way into the kitchen. I'm hoping that will be the best placement for it.

Celticmoon, great to hear from you again! I don't know if you remember my initial posting from last fall, but this layout is almost identical to one that you suggested. Don't know why it took me all this time to figure out you and Rhome were right! :)

Bmorepanic, thanks for taking the time to think through all of those kitchen functions. As far as the fridge blocking the view to dining/living rooms--I thought about that initially too, but couldn't find a better place for the fridge. Do you see one? I've also kicked around the idea of putting a beverage fridge under the island facing the pantry, but wasn't sure about giving up the storage space.

And the ovens...the cabinet guy wanted to put in a 33" cabinet to fit the 30" ovens. Is this incorrect?

Thanks again!
Alicia

OK...something else...seating at your (new) island. At most, you'll get three seats. You have 42" on each side.

First, NKBA guidelines recommend 24" per seat. You can probably get away with your 21".

However, you cannot have two people occupying the same space on a corner. The way they're setup right now, the seats on the corners share the same leg space. When seating on both sides of a corner, you need an extra 12 to 15 inches on one of the sides.

In the picture below, note that the two corner seats (in orange) overlap under the counter.

(each box = 6"x6")

This is what you really only have room for:

Oh bummer...but thanks for bringing it to my attention, buehl. Perhaps I should extend the seating down the long side of the island further and sacrifice those cabinets below? I'd like to fit at least four seats at the island. I don't think there's enough room to make the island wider and still have comfortable seating space, nor am I sure that I would like a wider island. However, I also don't want someone sitting opposite the prep sink getting splashed.

Hmmmm...decisions, decisions.

I don't think there's a lot of splash behind my prep sink...and it'd probably be the last seat filled, so maybe not always used anyway. Maybe you could extend the seating 6 more inches toward the sink wall, and add 6 inches to the overall length of the island (toward the dining room) to get the extra foot you'd need to make 4 seats work?

Good catch Buehl! Alicia, I'm not sure about robbing the aisle by the clean up sink, because it throws the proportions a bit out of whack (i.e., doable, but not as pretty), but Rhome's absolutely right. You could extend the island, and maybe steal some inches from the cabinets instead of the aisle.

OR, you could look at this as a way for your husband to win one :) If you made the seating area round, rather than angled out, you wouldn't impinge as much on the entry to that side of the kitchen, but would angle people's knees away from each other, instead of bumping. And provide the "interesting" asymmetry. I.e., not much bigger than you've drawn, just bulgy enough to the left of the screen to make it work. But it's too late for me to do the math. :) Might work.

Re the oven, look at the installation instructions (most manufacturers provide them on their websites). That will show the true, rather than trim, dimensions of the oven, as well as the size of the cutout, how much cabinet it needs for clamping, etc. Someone here surely knows about stock cabinet sizes and ovens, and can answer your question, but I've found out gobs by poring over the various manuals and instructions. :)

Can reverse pantry/ref. Don't know if I remember any style pics if you posted any before, but there are lots of ways to treat the cooktop area - including making the entire run deeper.

{{!gwi}}

what if in bmore's plan, you swapped the frig and pantry to put the frig on the outside near the dining and living. Then maybe you could move the DO's next to the pantry and make that all a "tall wall".

One thing that bothers me about both plans is that there's no good baking center area. Malhgold's suggestion about Bmore's plan would allow that counter to the entry side of the stove to work that way. Or in the original rectangular island plan, if you could go to 42" aisles, which I think are adequate, you could replace the shallow pantries with a baking center. To do that, you might want to have a counter depth fridge or see if you could maybe recess it into the wall a bit.

Do you have a closet space or shelf space anywhere nearby that could serve as pantry space for extra and bulk items?

Can someone please explain to me what is needed to qualify as a "baking center"? In my plan, I was thinking that my baking center would be around the bottom corner of the island (storing mixing bowls in base cabs, baking items in pantry, ovens right there, pans over the ovens). The only thing that I was missing was a place to put my KitchenAid! So what else am I missing? I do enjoy baking, and can't wait to have a convection option in my ovens! Rhome, do you have any photos of a proper baking center?

Rhome, yes I do have a very large pantry/storage closet right by the mudroom (4' 9" x 9'). If you look in the drawing of the main living area posted above, you can see the "pantry" just off of the entrance from the mudroom. Not exactly right by the kitchen, but convenient enough to house a lot of bulk kitchen items and cleaning supplies.

Bmorepanic, I don't think I can steal that extra footage from the hall. That would make our front entrance about 3 1/2 ft. wide--definitely not big enough. I totally appreciate your ability to think beyond what is pictured, as that layout never would've occurred to me. Maybe I'm just to 'close' to the plan to see another way. Not sure about putting the cooktop in front of the window, as any ventilation would block the view. But it might be nicer to have the ovens closer to the stovetop.

Thanks for challenging my brain once more...but I think I'm starting to feel smoke coming out my ears...is there such a thing as kitchen overload syndrome? :)

"The only thing that I was missing was a place to put my KitchenAid! So what else am I missing?"

What else needs to be missing?! ;-D

Having a place to keep and use our mixer was vital in our layout. Of course your plan will work, but I like to have it out and ready to use, not heft it back and forth somewhere. I keep all the flour, sugar, etc. right above (get 'em down, scoop out and put them right back into place), and the measuring utensils, rubber spatulas, mixer parts, etc in the base. I keep ingredients and do the mixing right there. I can then turn and do kneading, rolling out, or filling cookie sheets on the clean island behind. I don't have to unload cabinet contents onto the island, then move them back out of the way to load pans or roll out dough.

I do keep my bread mixer and bread pans in the island directly across...The mixer is lighter to lift, I grind my flour and it's a bigger project, so I just use a few things out of the 'baking center' for that...but it is just a turn away to grab things. I would probably keep that stuff in the baking center, too, but I ran out of room.

Not that mine is the only or the best to show you, but here it is (see the link below for more. I especially remember momto4kids'):

Here is a link that might be useful: kitchens with baking ctrs on Finished Kitchens Blog

Rhome-what are the dimensions of your baking counter?

Sorry about that. I was guessing from the drawing that your hall was 5.5 feet.

Cook1, that counter is 47" wide by 25" deep.

So sorry to resurrect this thread from page 6! I've been at my SIL's with no internet access, but a lot of time to think. So if I may ask your opinions just one more time? Your advice is invaluable!

I think I'm happy with my layout as is (mostly) but I find myself wishing for space for a baking center--even though I didn't even what this was a couple of days ago, I know it is something I would like! I'm also not completely comfortable with having the ovens directly in front of the doorway. Here is my possible solution (with Rhome's suggestions as inspiration--thank you!)...

I talked to my builder about recessing the fridge, and he said it wouldn't be a problem. This gives me a little more wiggle room around the island. What if I move the ovens to the pantry wall (next to the doorway), then put a 4 ft. baking center next to the ovens, then a 30" wide pantry next to that. This would make that run 24" deep, and would give me about 42" clearance around the island.

Then, the cabinet run on the sink wall could end in another pantry (or something else I can't think of) in place of the ovens. This would take away the danger of the ovens in front of the doorway, and I would have a baking center right next to the ovens. I do have a large walk-in pantry nearby, so losing pantry space in the kitchen isn't a big deal.

What do you think? Does it make sense to move the ovens? Is 42" around the island going to be too tight?

Thanks for the input! :)

Alicia,

I'm probably too tired to follow, but is there any chance you could give us a sketch? 42" isn't too tight, but it's the least I'd do. Make sure where you have doors/drawers and bottoms back to back. :)

Re baking centers, I tried to fit a rolling station in my own plan. I came up with all kinds of ideas. For awhile I nixed an island for a multipurpose table. What I finally decided is that since I like to do mixing and shaping on a higher counter, and the rolling height was really just for rolling, I'll make a box to stand on just for rolling. :) I love Rhome410's baking organization, and hope to do something like that, however. ;)

JC

I would apologize for tempting you with something you hadn't thought of, but I'm not going to because it sounds GREAT to me!! --And the cabinet run on the sink wall could end in a dish hutch! :-) I am a fan of major dish storage and I don't see much in that plan you had with the oven on that wall.

Yay, yay, yay. I'm very excited.

I can't remember if you're having a Fr door fridge. If so, I would probably fudge the island toward the stove and fridge to give your seating as much room as possible. If you're trying to fit seating in the 42", and trying to bake in that aisle, that's pretty tight.

Did you draw it up so we dbl check?

Having stuff like the ref behind the seating needs a wider aisle.

A seated person takes up about two feet of aisle beyond the counter edge. This leave 18" for a sorta walkway - but you need to open cabinet doors or ref doors into that space while simultaneously standing in front of the thing you're accessing. We generally tell people - in this particular case of having stools in a working aisle with cabinets on both sides - to use about 60" aisles.

This can be cheated a bit, but probably not down to 42".

The fridge isn't behind the seating (it's behind the non-seating side of the island), but I'm thinking that part of the baking center and the end pantry cabinet will be? There are definitely differing opinions on this particular subjest, since Bmore and I always disagree on ideal aisle sizes...But I have 4 ft wide aisles in my kitchen, which seem huge to me. I just checked, and if someone was sitting on the side of the island toward my baking center, they wouldn't interfere with my working there... Maybe I'll try to take a photo later and you can see to judge for yourself.

Wow, thanks for the quick replies! I will be drawing everything out during the kids' naptime and I'll try to be as exact as possible. Hopefully that will make it a little more clear whether or not this will work.

So I hope to have a layout posted within a few hours. I can't thank you enough for all the great feedback! :)
Alicia

All right everyone, please tell me what you think of this arrangement.

Changes:
The fridge is recessed into the wall to counter depth. It will be a french-door bottom freezer.

Island is narrower by 3". This gives a 15" overhang for seating. I also extended the island by 6" to gain more room for seating. Don't know if this is necessary or not.

Ovens, baking center, and pantry on one wall. I tried to create symmetry on there, but the pantry width can be changed. I'm wondering if this wall is too long now and creating that 'closed in' feeling that I wanted to avoid. Any thoughts?

Overall, I feel pretty comfortable that there will be enough clearance all around the island, even where there is seating. One question I have...how far do the doors of a counter-depth (or recessed) fridge stick out beyond the countertop? I'm guessing 2-3"? Also, my measurements don't take into account the overhang from the countertops.

So what do you all think? Oh, I sooooo want to get this right! Thank you!

You promised a 4 ft baking center! ;-) 3 ft might be doable, but it seems 2 ft is pretty small to be of use. This is our breakfast center at 30" for a size reference. I think 24" between 2 tall and deep units would feel kind of like a cave.

Personally, I think the aisles are fine, though.

can you extend the pantry wall further north? Can the end of that wall line up with the end of the frig wall? You'd gain a lot more counterspace in the middle.

Or eliminate the pantry and have only 'point of use' storage in the kitchen, since you have a pantry elsewhere?

Oh my gosh! I meant to draw 4 ft.--what was I thinking? You are right, 2 ft. would be way too small. But then that wall is getting really long. Wait, let me re-draw...

Okay, how's that? I don't think I'd want to lengthen that wall anymore, so I drew it without the pantry. I think I'll be able to fit a lot of food stuff in the baking center cabinets, plus the corner susans, plus my walk-in pantry...I should be set with storage space. However, that pretty much does away with the symmetry. And now the baking center is directly across from seating--but I still think there's enough space. Would it look funny to have the baking center exposed on one end like this? Should I go with a 3 1/2 ft. baking center and put a narrow pantry (maybe pull-out) on the end?

Oops, I was posting while you were. Malhgold, yes that wall could be extended. Do you think that make it feel too closed-in? I want the kitchen to have a nice open feeling.

Rhome, what is "point-of-use" storage? I'm guessing it is what I was talking about, with storing baking stuff in the baking center itself instead of a separate pantry?

You could, I suppose, just put a section of wall to end it. If you leave it open you can use it as buffet serving space and leave the island free for sitting.

You will have to go diagonally across the aisle to roll out dough, fill cookie sheets, etc. But then you'll just turn to place in the oven, so it'll work, I think. Will the seating likely be full when you're baking? At least not all the time, probably.

I don't know if it will feel too closed in for you. Could you mock something up in that space to get an idea? Maybe move a piece of furniture or a tall box. If you don't want to extend it the entire length, maybe at least bring the wall out to line up with the end of the island.

I also wouldn't worry about the symmetry of tall on each end. I think it would make it feel more open if there wasn't tall on each end.

I agree with Malhgold. You have plenty of symmetry in the kitchen. You don't need it on the baking center. In fact, I like it open! You could put a decorative bracket or something at the open end to "support" the upper cabinet and make it look finished, instead of just stopping.

I think this looks really functional. Cooking on one side, baking on the other, clean-up, prep, and seating in the middle. The one thing more I might want in the baking area is better access to the sink. 15" isn't too much to reach over, there in the island. If it were me, I might put the faucet in a corner to make it easier reaching across. It's not that far to the clean-up sink, anyway, though. :)

For your drawing, however, your chairs are too small. Try drawing them 18" to get a better sense of how big they are. Not pushed under. Those napping ones will be teenagers! :D

I think symmetry would be unnecessary for that area, too. Where would you even view it from straight-on enough to appreciate it?

Point-of-use storage means having things where you use/need them. My thought was that you have plenty of room in this kitchen to do that and the extra pantry space would not be as valuable as the baking counter. (Unless, I hesitate to say, you could benefit from storing coloring books, games, etc. there...But those could go in the island or elsewhere, too.)

Oooh, I'm so excited! I think this might be THE ONE!! :) This layout feels good. I can imagine myself working in this space and my family hanging out and us all being happy with it. Of course, my imagination only works so well (and not always that well these days!), so I guess I'll have to wait and see.

I showed this layout to my hubby this evening and he likes it...or he's just saying he likes it so I'll stop obsessing over this kitchen. Either way, it works for me! :)

I can't thank everyone enough for all of your input and expertise! How does anyone design a kitchen without GW and all of the great people on here? Thanks a million!!

Alicia

Alicia, Because we worked on renderings for your kitchen in a previous post, I have your basic plan on file and I don't think it will take much to update it. Email me through 'my page' if you want new renderings so you can 'see' your new kitchen to help out the imagination. :-)