Spend less on the cabinets to spend more on a plumber. That's a horribly dysfunctional cramped liitle suitcase you've got on paper. Good thing about paper is that it erases and changes can be made before it turns into reality.

I'd seeriously explore the galley kitchen idea. It might cost a bit for that plumber, but at least more than one person balancing on the balls of his feet to pirouette on one spot could fit into the room. Also, for overall traffic flow in the home, it seems more natural to enter the home in the living area rather than the dining room. Call a plumber and get an estimate at least. It won't be as expensive as you think. We're on slab down here, and the average charge to add a prep sink has been between $500 and $900. But, it's functionality WELL purchased.

I actually did another rendition using live wire's gallery style kitchen. I do like it, but it cuts off the kitchen to the rest of the house. Most houses in FL have an open format, where one can cook and be able to see others. I believe they are called great rooms.

As far as the current layout goes, what is the major issue with it? Is it having to walk to the stove? Prep could be done to the left of the sink. This area isn't far from the fridge, as the kitchen is tiny. The only issue I see is that one would have to walk a few steps to the range.

Alternatively, one could prep next to the right of the range. The extra time would be spent taking two steps to the sink to wash something. I guess I've never noticed the issue of having to take a few steps. Is the layout just to save time?

I was doing some research on the work triangle. It seems like it still falls within the recommended range. It says no leg should be more than 9 ft. I've seen other work triangles where there is a long leg between the refrig and sink. Is the issue in my case the leg is too long between the sink and range?

If the range was across from the refrig, would it be an acceptable layout?

Personally, I've cooked in many a small kitchen with less than ideal layouts. It's fine. My kitchen undoubtedly does not have an ideal layout. I basically kept it the same layout and did new frameless, cabinets (all drawers) to maximize storage space and take the cabinet boxes off most of the walls (I don't like them). But it worked with my budget and I'm so happy with my new, affordable kitchen.

Personally, I would try not to do the bottom or upper angled cabinets in your U. They takes up valuable floor space (think what it would be like to be cooking with someone in that space) and they will cramp your counter space (you'll have less "head" room). I think the opening on an angled cabinet is actually smaller than on a regular cabinet with a v-door. Take some of the largest items you want to store in the corner cabinets to a kitchen show room that has both and test both out and see what you think.

I would not block off your corners (i.e. make them dead space) as you need all the storage space you can get (unlike some people with much larger kitchens who can do without that space). I would consider open cabinets or shelves on your uppers in your corner...much easier to get into. I had an upper cabinet in a corner like that once and it was very hard to open the door and get into it.

You can get a lot of good advice on this forum but I think sometimes people forget the constraints that the original poster is working under (gift cards, no budget for plumbing etc). You have a difficult space to work with and sometimes you just have to decide what will work for you...what you can live with.

That said, you should make sure the design itself is functional...for example the angled upper on the left of the stove in the first design you posted. Someone commented that it was the a poor design and you can see that the door would not open all the way because it will hit the hood over the range. (Unless it was intended to be an open cabinet).

This post was edited by itsallaboutthefood on Thu, Feb 27, 14 at 22:27

itsallaboutthefood

Thanks for seeing it from my perspective. I was kind of getting down about doing my kitchen remodel because of all the hate towards the layout. Everyone I've shown the rendition to loves it, but they are not kitchen aficionados. I guess I've never noticed a problem with the current layout as far as working in the kitchen goes. My main issues have been storage constraints and space in the kitchen. It just feels too narrow currently. That is why I wanted to extend it out a little. I wanted to give it a little breathing room.

I've decided to nix the corner wall cabinet. You guys are right about it being too bulky. I haven't decided on enclosing the fridge, however. I like the fact that I will be able to put in a 24" wall cabinet above it. I do think the current 12" wall is worthless. The issue that arises is that it will take up some valuable space on the wall by paneling the fridge. I'm guessing it will take up 1 1/2" if the panels are 3/4." It kind of throws off the adjacent cabinet dimensions.

The wall to the edge of the door casing for the laundry room is exactly 7ft. I could eat into the casing a little a guess, but I don't know if that would be a good idea.

This post was edited by front on Fri, Feb 28, 14 at 9:47

Look into frameless before giving up on boxing in the fridge. The interior drawer space in a frameless drawer is wider and taller than with standard framed drawers. You may be able shave a little off the drawers to make room for a boxed in fridge.

This post was edited by itsallaboutthefood on Fri, Feb 28, 14 at 10:42

Front, I had the same issue when it came to boxing in my fridge ... adding the panels would eat away at valuable wall space. But framing in the fridge just made everything look so nice and finished, and I really make use of the cabinet above it for storage. I had to go a little closer to the door casing on that wall than I would have liked, but the trade off was worth it. You could also consider changing out the casing to something a bit narrower.

jellytoast

Yeah, I was thinking about the same thing. I was going to see what options I had for a narrow casing. I was debating on taking the door itself out, but it is nice to close it when guest are over. Especially, if the laundry room is a mess.

It's crazy how valuable an inch or two is in a small kitchen.

I don't really understand the wisdom of installing a prep sink in a kitchen this small. I do nearly all my prep on my peninsula which is to the left of my range. I prefer prepping on the peninsula because it's more "open" there and I can look out and see the TV. I have to walk a few steps over to the adjacent wall if I need to use my sink. But I'm only walking a few steps! It has never once been an issue, or caused me any hardship. I've never thought of it as being inconvenient, or wished I didn't have to walk those few steps. Sometimes I will peel and slice vegetables right at the sink because I do have an area there to work. But a cutting board across half of the sink could take care of that if you didn't have any counter space to work on. I honestly don't think a small kitchen needs two sinks.

The major issue for me is walking across the kitchen to drain a pot of boiling pasta water.

Will you be going back to Lowe's soon to have them change out the diagonal cabinets? You still need corner solutions for your base cabinets.

I agree with jellytoast on this issue - a prep sink is overkill (and actually takes up valuable space for other things) in a small kitchen.

I was doing some research on the work triangle, and it is suggested that no leg should be more than 9 ft. The longest let (stove to sink) is within that range. There are probably people out there with what would be considered ideal layouts that have to walk further than I will.

front, I have a very small kitchen, part of a great room, just one wall and an island. It's much smaller than my kitchen in my previous house. I actually consider it ideal - not too far to walk to do anything!

front, are you married to the idea of the lower diagonal-faced cabinet to the right of the range? It seems like if that were replaced with a regular right-angled corner cabinet, you'd be able to move the range over to the right a bit and perhaps it would be a bit less cramped over on that wall. I can't really see the actual dimensions of your kitchen and the measurements of the wall.

Yeah, I thought about making a square corner. I have the ability to extend that wall a little bit. I'm still going over all my options.

I agree with live_wire_oak that a galley plan would be the most space efficient but understand not wanting to cut off the kitchen from the rest of the house. (My sister had one of those Florida houses with the great/common room floor-plan oriented towards the back yard & it was really nice).

However, if you rotated the galley 90 degrees and added the laundry area and the back of the walk-in closet to the kitchen, I think it would work.The additional space gives you a longer galley, which you could wholly or partially open to the dining & living. You would have to knock down the wall between the laundry & the kitchen & lessen the depth of the walk-in closet, but you would not have to mess with the plumbing.

The cooking area could be across from the sink, facing the sit-down bar area. The refrigerator would be somewhere in the newly acquired space. (Don't know what the laundry room constraints are). You would need smaller under-counter washer & dryer or a stackable unit (most space efficient). You may have room for a pantry.

Hope this helps.

Do you guys think the 5' between counters is too large?

No...my counters are around 5.5 feet apart.

My U-shaped kitchen has 6' (cabinet-to-cabinet) between the legs. I also have a diagonal base cab in the corner, so I could have a full Super Susan, and a drawer on top. It doesn't feel crowded except when all 4 of us (including adult sons) are cleaning up after supper.

double post

This post was edited by front on Sat, Mar 1, 14 at 19:26

A few ideas.

I'd move the small cab (15"?) b/w the range and the corner on the DR side, to the other side of the range and consider a tall, 12" pantry cab b/w the fridge and the corner cab. If you have a narrower casing for the laundry door, it can be panel, fridge, 12" cab and 36" corner (I have a tall pantry and wall oven cab on two sides of my fridge and no other panels, so I guess you won't need another panel b/w the fridge and a tall cab next to it). On the other side of the range there can be a narrow pullout for oils, etc. (as I understand you still have 6-9" left there before the corner on the DR side).

Another alternative can be to have an L in the upper left corner, a wider pantry cab b/w the wall and the fridge and removing part of the wall b/w the kitchen and the LR.

Thanks Sena

There is a similar design at Home Depot like you describe. I will take some measurements of it today.

Sena, she needs a corner filler next to that pull-out so it clears the peninsula drawer hardware, so what does that leave her for a drawer to the left of the range? I think you can buy a 3" pull-out, but you have to consider the expense of such a small pull-out vs. what it can store. But it looks better to move the range down, and the uppers look fine too, which I wasn't so sure about.

I would do a full drawer base and uppers between the fridge and corner instead of a pantry. The pantry pull-outs are over $800, maybe close to $1000 IIRC. They are good if you use a lot of canned and boxed food though. I would want that corner roomier for a microwave or toaster oven.

I am wondering if there is a way to use a Hafele LeMans or Magic Corner. I believe they only need a 12" door for access. It seems you could fit in a door in either corner without losing too much drawer space. I would probably just deaden the corner between fridge and stove if you can get two decent drawer bases in that corner. The Hafeles aren't cheap either--I believe around $600--but most kitchens are going to need a pullout or Susan.

I can understand the desire for an open-kitchen great room floor plan, but I think you still need a bit of a transition betweeen the front entry and the kitchen. What about putting in a short wall about 27" long to the right of the front door and have the cabinets on the sink wall die into that? At least that way, someone entering the home will not have a view of the kitchen sink. It would work well with sena01's first plan. You could put a small console table with a mirror above on the entry side of this small wall.

May_flowers, if I'm read'ng the measurements right, there is 114" at the bottom of the U for the base cabs. So I think, it can be 36" corner (fridge side), 15" cab, and 30" range and the remaining 33 can be a corner cab, or 6" pull out, 3" filler. and a blind corner (something like le mans maybe) or a cab facing the DR at the corner (would a filler still be needed if a 27" wide cab is used?)

I think it will be much better to move the range towards the DR side, because, otherwise it will be tight/annoying, if someone wants to use the fridge while another is cooking (I'm going with 7' for the fridge wall, not the measurements on KD's drawing)

Don't you mean 24" from wall to corner, not 36"?

I agree about moving the range as far as possible toward the peninsula.

Don't you mean 24" from wall to corner, not 36"?

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question.

The green cab is 36x36" corner cab, orange is 15" wide cab, and red is 9" for pullout and filler.

I sympathize with your desire to open up the kitchen. I used to live in a condo in South Beach (late 70s-early 80s before it got trendy) which had a galley kitchen directly off the entry. There were no windows & it was enclosed except for a minuscule pass-through. It was dark & depressing. When I remodeled it, I kept the 2 short walls abutting the entry area, but opened up the long wall from counter to ceiling for the view & feeling of openness. Planned to add a bar counter behind the pony wall, but ended up having to move out of state due to job issues.

Having said all that, most houses don't have you walk directly into an open kitchen. I agree with valinsv about the need to keep the wall to the left of the prep/clean-up/sink zone to screen it from the entry area.

But then I'm a messy cook...

I'm a little confused about adding a half wall to sink cabinet ends. There is a half wall there currently, but you will still be able to see the sink when entering the house.

Here is the view when entering:

They are thinking your French door is your front door.

Sena, I thought you were measuring from the range wall to the corner. Didn't know you were proposing a 36" cabinet to fill the corner.

Sorry, when I wrote '2 short walls abutting the entry area' I meant '2 narrow (full-height) walls abutting the entry area'. I think valinsv made the same mistake in her/his post when she/he wrote 'short wall about 27" long'. I think it should read 'narrow (full-height) wall 27" wide'.

In your case, I meant keep the existing narrow full height wall separating the entry and the sink area.

Sorry for the confusion.

Never mind.

Thank you may_flowers!

I updated the floor plan with a lot of your suggestions. I'm going to leave a half wall next to the sink counters.

I also shortened the expansion from 18" to 15." The reason I did this was to leave room for the french doors. Currently, there is a 9' sliding window there. I'm going to replace it with a six foot double hung french door. I wanted to keep it centered, so I would be framing in 18" on both sides. One of the reasons I went with a shorter extension was to allow for the casing around the french doors. My other option would have been to off center the doors a few inches to the left. What are your thoughts on me shortening the kitchen expansion by 3 inches? I will not have 57" walkspace between counters.

I was hoping to get some of your thoughts on my color selection as well. I chose Schuler Hampton Morel Vintage for the cabinets (off white color). On the back of the cabinets, I went with Verona Cherry in Chestnut. What are your thoughts on the contrasting stain/paint? I've noticed a lot of people do bi-tone kitchens.

I went with deluxe panels on the sides of the wall cabinets. I have a couple of cabinets that I'm not sure if it is worth it or not to have deluxe panels. Should I add deluxe panels to the wall cabinets next to the sink? I'm referring to the panels facing the window.

Cost for upgrade: 115 each side (total 230)

I enclosed the refrigerator. I made the left side a deluxe panel. Added cost $462 Do you think this is worth it? I'm not sure how much it will even be seen. I would probably notice it, however. Is it better to just stay consistent with the end panels.

My other issue was trying to meet the next higher tier discount at lowes. If I spent more than 15k, I received a 2k instant discount.

12k-14,999k $1200 Discount
>15k $2000 Discount

I was about a $1000 off, so I added some things. I added the back paneling for $1448. With the added tier discount, this comes out to around $600 for the paneling. I was originally going to have a custom cabinet shop do the short back paneling or possibly do it myself. I've done a lot of small finished work with my router.

The under counter molding was pricey I thought. It was $450 for a simple molding. I'm debating on whether to just not go for the extra $800 in tier discounts and just cut some of these costs down. What are your thoughts?

There will be a 40.5" walkway into the kitchen. Do you guys think that is sufficient? My other option would be to cut down one of the 24" cabinets to 21. Then it will not light up with my refrigerator panel any longer. Keep in mind that the gap only narrows for 2ft, so it isn't really a walkway. It is just an entrance. Currently, there is a 35" opening between the two half walls.

This post was edited by front on Mon, Mar 3, 14 at 23:45

I can't read the measurements very clearly, but if you also shortened the expansion by 3" at the U part, maybe you should reconsider it. I think you end up with a 12" cab next to the range because of that and if it's an ordinary cab or drawers you may not find it very useful (as far as I can see you have another 12" cab next to the fridge). Since you plan to have bar extension for the peninsula, I don't think an extra 3" difference would be noticed.

As to sink wall, I see some 6" fillers(?) on both sides of the sink. I don't think it will be noticed if you have the sink off center in front of the window. I'd try to have the faucet as centered as possible, and have wider cabs on that wall, if that won't add too much to the cost.

I think a 40.5" entry is adequate.

I don't think you need deluxe panels for the wall cabs facing the window. I wouldn't mind an ordinary panel on the left of the fridge either, but I'm not too fond of any kind of decorative things, moldings etc. in a kitchen, so this is just my personal preference.

As to extra discount, if you decide to spend the additional 1000 for it, I wouldn't spend the discount for anything you can diy or obtain at a lower cost, but use it for things that'd make the kitchen more functional (organizers, more drawers, etc.)

I like bi-toned kitchens where uppers and lowers, or island and perimeter, are different colors/stains, but I'm not clear about the peninsula. Would the back and the side be different colors/stains? How would that effect your countertop choice?

Thanks Sena

Yes, there is a 12" three drawer cabinet next to the range. There is also a 12 four drawer next to the fridge. I was going to use the 4 drawer base for things like zip loc bags and foil. There were a few reasons I went 3 inches shorter (from a 15 to 12in cabinet next to the range). One was I was trying to not have to put an extra wall cabinet on the sink wall. I have a 36in there now. The other was for the overhang into the french door walkway. If I go with an 11" overhang, It will go into the walkway 8" and opposed to the full 11." I'm not sure if this would make a difference. Also, by making the base cabinet a 15," the range hood will have to be pushed over. I will be left with a 15" wall end cabinet.

I would probably be fine with the overhang. I am going to lay out some tape today to see where things would lie. What are your thoughts on gaining 3 inches on the base drawer, but losing 3 inches on the wall cabinet?

Everything would be the painted off white color except the paneling in front of the stools. That would be a darker stained wood color. I have natural color maple floors now, and I was going to select a white/light color granite.

One other issue I'm debating on is whether to have two 3 drawer base cabinets at the end of the peninsula or one 2 drawer and one 3 drawer. They are both 24" cabs.

Do you have any suggestions on the upgrades? I put two super susans in the 33" and 36" square base cabinets. I also went with a waste basket next to the sink.

This post was edited by front on Tue, Mar 4, 14 at 8:05

What will be the counter o/h for cabs, 1,5 or 1"? If your measurements are based on 1,5", I'd consider 1". The 1" you'll gain in the U can be added to bar o/h to make it 12".

If you decide you'll be fine with the walkway, I'd prefer gaining 3" for base, since it's deeper than a wall cab (btw, wouldn't you have a 3" wider wall cab on the other side of the range, over the 15" base cab?)

If you'll have sufficient storage in the corner or other cabs for tall things,I'd prefer two 3 drawer base cabs at the end of the peninsula.

I don't have any experience with corner cabs/ super susans, but understand that they are much preferred over lazy susans. I believe most are happy with 36" corners, but not too sure about 33" ones, since the door opening is about 12" only.

"I'm going to leave a half wall next to the sink counter."

I don't understand why you would do this. You don't need a separation between your kitchen and dining room. Cabinets stop at the French door in all the layouts I've ever seen.

I would like to see your base cabinets labeled with what you plan to put in them. I sure don't feel good about that Susan in your fridge corner, especially since you have one in the other corner. It makes your other drawer bases almost unusable. What is the inside measurement of your 12" drawers? My inside drawer space is 3" less than the cabinet. What can you fit in two drawer stacks with 9" or 10" drawers? You will actually have more storage with two drawer bases and dead space in the corner than you will in a Super Susan. Someone did the math and proved it.

"One other issue I'm debating on is whether to have two 3 drawer base cabinets at the end of the peninsula or one 2 drawer and one 3 drawer. They are both 24" cabs."

The purpose of 2 drawer bases is to stack pots and pans. Won't pots and pans go in your Susan? That's another reason I question why you need two Susans. How many large items do you have?

So I read your sink question before bed and then laid awake trying to imagine your kitchen tasks. Will you store some plates and bowls in the peninsula area so you don't have to walk to the sink cabinets every time you want to eat a bowl of cereal at the counter? Will most of your U wall cabs be for food storage?

Then I started thinking about trash in your cooking/prep area. When you crack an egg, you'll need to walk the shell to the trash near the sink. Every time you open a package or unwrap a stick of butter or wipe out a greasy pan with a paper towel, you'll need to walk to the sink area. Microwaved meals generate a lot of packaging, and I believe you plan a microwave in your U. So maybe it makes sense to put a trash pull-out somewhere in the peninsula area. Anywhere would work in your small U. Maybe you could then get by with a small trash under the sink for wet prep, since most of that can go down the disposal or to compost. Then you can have a large drawer base to the left of your sink for dish storage.

I would not use deluxe panels on the window cabs. I panel cabs that start and end a run. If you omit the half wall, I would panel the cabs facing the dining room, uppers and base. I assume the end of the peninsula will have a decorative panel. I'd panel the cabinet on the range wall too. Your call about deluxe paneling on the fridge. Maybe you could hang a calender or art there if those panels take a nail.

If you can somehow avoid 12" drawer stacks, I would do it. We had one in our old house and it was virtually useless. Our smallest is now 18" and its great, but even 15" would be so much better.

Sena

For some reason, It just looked odd in the renderings with the small 12 wall cabinet. You are right, however, that the 3" would be moved to the left of the range. I had planned for a 1" overhang.

Mayflower

One of the reasons I added the partial wall was for the light switch for the kitchen. It is currently on the inside corner of the half wall. It was recommended by some to put up a half wall, but I think people were thinking the french door was my front entry. It faces the patio. What are your thoughts on not having it?

I was going to store pots and pans in the super susan next to the range. I was going to try to put small appliances in the one to the left, but I may put those in the cabinet above the stove. I've decided on a 3 base, but I could make one a 4 if it is advised. I have a lot of utensils that I was going to put in the top drawer (spatulas, whisks, knives, etc.). I want to completely clear the countertop of clutter. Do you think a 4 drawer would be better?

I could change the 33" square corner to an ez reach type cabinet. I don't want to make the corner dead space. I had dead space in that corner right now. For some reason, it bothers me that I can not use it.

The 4 drawer 12" would be used for foil, ziploc bags, etc.

Yes, pretty much all of the U shaped wall cabinets will be for food storage. Normally, I store bowls, plates, and glasses in the cabinets above the sink. I probably will have space to add plates and bowls to the drawers in the peninsula, however.

I think I can do most of the prep next to the sink or in front of the refrig. The kitchen is very small. It is literally 3 steps from the range to the sink. If I was doing prep across from the fridge, the trash would be one step.

Thanks for the help by the way. Please keep it coming.

Can't you put the light switch on the wall under or near the cabinet? Do you need a switch there for the kitchen, dining room and patio? Without the half wall, I would add 3" to the base cab. The wall cab doesn't need to increase. Be aware you'd start the backsplash under the wall cabinet, not at the end of the counter, so give that area some thought.

You should check Lowe's for the interior drawer sizes. The times I've pulled open a drawer, they seemed very shallow, so you probably will need to do 3-drawer cabs.

Here's my last pitch for drawers instead of a Susan. ;) I think you have 24" in both corners, so allowing for 3" fillers in the corner, you could have two 21" drawers. The drawers by my stove are 23" wide. The top drawer is gadgets and the other three hold all my baking glassware--bowls, casseroles, 9 x 13 and smaller pans, loaf pans, pie plates, custard cups, colanders, rolling pin--35 pieces in all. In the 16" 3-drawer between my fridge and corner, I have spices in the top drawer, bread, crackers, and snacks in the middle (which I love having in a drawer), and a crockpot and hand mixer in the bottom.

Someone mentioned installing a door in your bedroom closet to access that corner. Does that idea appeal to you? Then you'd have drawers AND use of the corner. Good place to hide the family jewels!

I'll take another look at some things. The end of the sink base cabinets needs some more thought. I'm not sure if I'm going with in-swing or out-swing doors, so that could play as a factor.

I'm thinking about adding the 3inches back in. I can extend the center wall out 3 inches. This will leave me with a 24" wall cab to the left and an 18" to the right. I'm still uncertain about the half wall.

Can't you access the corner on the peninsula side from the back? Then you can put a 36" corner susan on the fridge side of the range, and wider drawers the peninsula side. The corner can be for larger, less used kitchen items, or be fitted with drawers or shelves for dining room stuff (tablecloths, placemats, etc). No need to close it off.

What does a 36" Susan on the fridge side do to the two 12" base cabinets? Eliminate them or shrink them?

You actually could change the 12" 4-drawer cabinets to top drawer + cabinet. That will save some money on drawer boxes and hardware. I think Blum full-extension hardware is $50 each. I would at least do the fridge cabinet like that. I can see needing a drawer near the stove for gadgets and potholders, but you do have the peninsula drawers.

Yeah, I didn't know that it is an upgrade for Schuler quiet close drawers. I thought they came standard now. I think Kraftmaid offers them standard.

Quiet close isn't as important as full-extension. Without FE, you lose easy access to a good portion of your drawer. But usually quiet close and FE come together. Might check to be sure.

Do you have a vanity that you could fit kitchen things into to visualize a 12"drawer? My KM vanity has 12" drawers and the inside is only 7"! Holy smokes! I hope the kitchen drawers aren't made the same way.

May_flowers, I have two 12-inch base cabinets in my kitchen, and indeed the drawers are only 7 inches wide inside! I'm thinking that is likely standard with face frame cabinets.

I couldn't do away with the 12-inch cabinets, but elected to have only one drawer at the top with a door below. I use one drawer for rolling pins and the other for misc. baking things (beaters, whisks, etc.) so they aren't completely useless. And the door below lets me use all of the available space for cutting boards, cookie sheets, broiler pans, cooling racks, etc.

I definitely would not want rows of those 7-inch drawers!!!