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Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Posted by Kelemvor (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 25, 14 at 9:39

So, here's a picture of what our island looks like. Cabinets are from Ikea, the red border is the granite countertop, the green are the measurements.

Sketch with Dimensions:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1787993/island.jpg

Actual Island:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1787993/island2.jpg

Our granite place told us that they would be concerned with anyone sitting on or leaning on the very end of the counter that it could break. No one will be sitting on the counter but we have kids (8 & 5) and if they sit at the counter and need to reach for something, they would be pushing down on the counter to stretch to get what they need.

I really do NOT want to have to put an actual leg on the top right corner in the picture. I'm trying to figure out what other options we have that will be unobtrusive since we plan to use it as an eating island for breakfast and things like that.

Any options anyone has would be great!

I can only see how to upload one picture per thread so I'll upload the 2nd one in a reply.

UPDATE:
Just heard back from the Granite place and they said:
Alaska White has veining. Veining can cause granite to be more fragile. For the two corner areas we are recommending post supports.

So, how to posts work? Do they get attached to the stone and just sit on the floor? Do they generally get attached to the floor and to the granite? We're going to have a floating floor all around the island so can the supports sit on that or do we need to rig up a way of going through the floor in a specific section and into the sub floor? Argh. Why didn't anyone mention this until the very end?!? :(

This post was edited by Kelemvor on Tue, Feb 25, 14 at 13:43


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Can you post your photos directly in the thread?


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Here's the other picture


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

You need a steel support structure under the granite. I would be concerned without that as well. In addition, the cabinet boxes themselves need to be FIRMLY fastened down into the subfloor and each other. The Ikea plinths won't do it. You need a sub base that is attached to the floor, and then the cabinets attached to it. I'm assuming that your electrical comes up from underneath? Just do 2x4 platforms covered will plywood, and screw and nail everything, with an opening for the Romex to come through.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

What does your fabricator say? They should be making suggestions. Remember your kids will only get bigger and stronger. Friends will come over and lean on the island. There is no guarantee that no one will never sit on the island.

We have a different set up because our island is heated but some of these ideas may work for you.

Here is a photo showing steel under our granite. Steel slats like this can be mounted to the bottom of your granite. Discuss with your fabricator.

kitchen9-5003 photo kitchen9-5003.jpg

You can see we have a single steel leg. This maybe an option for you.

During this whole process we worked with the fabricator. He signed off that our design would be provide enough support. There is also brackets inside cabinet holding it to the floor and a bracket (out of view) holding the steel leg. The leg bracket is over kill but provides peace of mind.

This post was edited by debrak2008 on Tue, Feb 25, 14 at 10:27


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

The cabinets are already attached to the floor and each other down the middle of the island. The Feet are just on the outside edges so I can attach the kick plate.

If I have to do a steel structure, how does that work? Does it go between the cabinets and the counter so the counter will end up higher?


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

I just did a google search. Here is a link to many photos showing you different ways steel was used under granite.

Here is a link that might be useful: steel support under granite


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

If I were you I would have the granite polished under the large overhangs.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

I will disagree with the polishing under the exposed areas underneath. It should be smooth enough without polishing.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

It will be smooth ENOUGH, but it's an added detail to overhangs that is really nice. IMO


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Updated the OP with feedback from the granite place.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Eight years ago we had an 18" wide granite countertop sitting on a 4", 40" high wall. Cabinets on one side at 36"; 11" overhang on counter side, with no visible support brackets.

We put in several 10"x10" right-angle steel brackets - each about 1/4" thick by 1 1/2" wide. They did not have a 45 degree brace between the two sides. One side was dadoed into the vertical wall, and the other fit into a dadoed slot in the countertop. They were placed about every 18" along the length of the countertop. Have never had a problem with overhang support.

See debrak2008's post

Here is a link that might be useful: steel support under granite

This post was edited by chicago_bob on Tue, Feb 25, 14 at 14:52


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

The first two pictures show nearly useless plate steel installed on the flat. The third and fourth pictures show apparent 1" 18ga. square tube screwed to the top of the wall or let into the cabinets properly. You could have your party ON the cantilever when it's done this way and it's highly inconspicuous.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

I don't have a wall or anything to attach brackets to so that sort of thing won't work. I coudl put a whole sheet of plywood on top of the cabinets and the granite on top of that but then the counters will get pretty high.

So I guess we're looking at doing some posts and figuring out how to secure them and make them look nice while not being in the way...


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Who did the design? It's concerning that none of these issues were raised until after the fact. Where are your outlets going? In the left wall of the cabinets shown? Intruding into the usable space? Why are the overhangs planned so inconsistently? This will be an extremely awkward island for guests to sit at with the current cabinets under the counter. And it really won't work well with a floating floor to have posts. Either on the floor or with the flooring cut around the post. Either is problematic.

The whole thing needs a redesign. Let me do some thinking. How wedded are you to that awkward shape? And the floor that you've chosen? Where are the electrical outlets going to be located? I have some ideas, but something has to give.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

We're going to have the outlets on the side wall at the left of the island in the schematic. The idea is just to have the overhand to make it a sit at island. Originally we had the same overhang all the way around but thought it'd be more sturdy to have it shorter at the right side. However, if we need to add legs, then we might as well just go back out to 13" all the way around... hmmm.

Anyway, I can put a post down from the top right and bottom center-ish corners directly to the sub-floor and then put the floating floor around it and cover it from trim so the floor would float around the posts just like it will float around the island itself.

And the design is set. The cabinets are already in place as you can see from the 2nd picture up above. We just have to come up with the best solution to the overhang issue.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

This is what I would do with a non floating floor. With a floating floor, you're introducing more chances to buckle and more trim pieces around it. The posts MUST sit on the subfloor and be firmly fastened to it. One reason I was asking about electrical outlets is that the "apron" between the island and post is a good place to place an outlet.

You use large decorative table legs and horizontal fillers to create a table apron and a rim of support around the entire edge of the overhang. Pocket screws hold the fillers to the cabinets (you may want to reinforce the interior where the screws attach and use glue as well) and the posts and stretcher bars distribute the weight evenly. It's how we handled the overhang of the island below. The decorative leg has the fillers pocket screwed to it, and to the cabinet.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Kelemvor:

The square tube frame can be easily let into your cabinets. You don't need any posts or full plywood underlayment.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

@live_wire_oak That's what I was thinking as well. However, I just want the actual posts to be as small as possible to still support the weight.

Since they are supplemental pieces, maybe a 2 x 2 would be enough in the 3 spots and then some 1x3s connecting them together. I can pocket hole the posts to the subfloor and the trim pieces to the posts except the funky angle ones. I guess just a nail gun will work fine for those.

I'll have to do some more thinking once I get home and revisit my kitchen...

Looks like I have 2 weeks before the granite is ready to get installed anyway so I have some time to figure this mess out.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

A 2x2 is a spindle. Not a post. It has to be large enough to look deliberately designed. 3x3 is as small as I'd go. And the biggest reason I wouldn't do the tube still slotted into the cabinets is that I'd want to reinforce the cabinets to do that. That's a lot of weight to cantilever when you don't know what method someone has used to attach something or how they've reinforced it. The posts and stringers are the safer option for someone with an unknown skill level.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Oopsie, those are full overlay doors and drawers; no easily letting the frame in as I stated earlier.

Have your fabricator rod the top with stainless steel and exoxy, secure the stone, and forget about it. Those cantilevers just aren't large enough to demand posts of any size. You will regret them.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Our island is 6' wide, of which 18" is an overhang. This picture shows the 1/4" rolled steel plate that was installed under the granite. This allowed us to not have corbels or posts. I finished the steel with shellac so that it would not rust or get that dirty steel dust on the clothes of those sitting at the island. The 326 pound steel plate cost $179. Seemed like a small cost for stability and peace of mind to us.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Finally, some steel on the flat that I like. Good job sum5463.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

That looks promising. Where does one get a big *ss sheet of steel like that? And at 1/4" thick, is there any bend to the steel at all or is it completely rigid?

This post was edited by Kelemvor on Wed, Feb 26, 14 at 9:18


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Your local metal fabrication shop can provide the materials and cut them for you. I'd personally add a few flanges underneath the plate to increase it's resistance to deflection. It wouldn't need to be more than a small angle iron or tube welded to it to increase the rigidity. But, I'm paranoid about football player sized folks plopping themselves on any island. Or a homeowner standing on it to change a light bulb. Things that shouldn't happen, seem to happen anyway, in my experience.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Our steel is the first picture on the google search that debrak posted. The island is topped with a 3/4" sheet of plywood routed to make space for the steel,. The steel bars are 2" wide and 3/8" thick The plywood is screwed to the cabinet frames and of course the cabinet bases are securely screwed to a base that is screwed to the subfloor.

Trebucket, I tried to put lots of weight on the steel before the granite was installed and I couldn't get any deflection. Yes, box beams are stronger than flat, but these bars are thick enough to be rigid for any weight that might be put on the counter. They have supported our 15" overhangs for years now.

By the way, if one uses this sort of arrangement, I recommend getting plywood with veneer installed so the veneer covers the bottom. Our contractor used plain plywood and even though no one but a toddler was ever likely to see it, it bothered me knowing the unfinished surface was exposed and sometimes I'd feel it. My DH skinned the underside with veneer after I mentioned it so now that's fixed.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

We painted the plywood under out island the same color of the walls. It is never seen or felt.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

People shouldn't expect to stand on granite overhangs, but it's good to have margin for error because in the heat of the moment someone may forget that they aren't supposed to do something.

Ours, with the plywood and steel bar underlay did withstand the incident where our (non-football player) son hopped onto it to clean the ceiling after a bottle of homemade soda exploded.

Debrak, paint is a reasonable solution to the problem too. In our case, the veneer matches the natural cherry cabinets.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Kelemvor, my cabinet maker ordered the steel plate from a local steel fabricator as LWO suggested. Think about places that fabricate steel beams. Anyway, they cut it to our spec. No, no bending that bad boy. :) Throughout the reno process I found that $20 wood furniture dollies were my friends. We actually rested the steel on the dollies and rolled it in to the house and over to the island where we lifted it into place. In fact, when the 22 foot steel beam was delivered we used 3 or 4 dollies to roll that massive thing through the cut-out on the side of the house and over into place before it was lifted. Love those furniture dollies...

Treb, thanks for the kind words. Very much appreciated from someone with your expertise. :)

Amy


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Our granite guy called their fabricated and gave me a reasonable quote so I think we'll do the Steel Plate thing.

For those that have, how far back form the edge does your plate go? For ours they said they'd probably stop it about 6" from the edge.

I'm thinking that as long as we're putting a plate on, we might as well have it be big and go more like 3-4" from the edge.

Dunno if it matters though.

Thanks for all the help and input everyone!


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Our steel plate comes to within 4 inches of the granite edge. I'm sure your cabinet guy knows, but just check to be sure he has notched out the top surface of the cabs where the steel will lie. That way the granite will lay flat. If you look at my picture above you will see that the steel does not go all the way to the left side (not needed there as there is not an overhang on that side). You can see the notch in the cabinet box to the left of the edge of the steel. Like I said, I'm sure your cabinet guy is on top of this. Just wanted you to be able to look for that as you move forward. Best wishes!


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

We'll be mounting the plate to the top of the cabinets and then adding some furring strips around the perimeter edges. Our cabinets can't be trimmed down 14" due to the way they are constructed. This will raise the counter top 1/4" which is no big deal.

Glad this potential disaster was averted. Adding legs to our island really would have not worked out well.

Thanks all.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

sum5463, is the steel bolted to the Cab frames?


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Most of your overhang is only 13". That is sort of tight, and the 10" near impossible (it could mean knees hitting the cabinets). Your cabinets will always be getting kicked. Overhang seating should be 15". IMHO, it seems the only sufficient space is at the diagonal corner and at the very end of the open corner (facing cab.#9).

On my SIL's island, she has 16" of overhang, with 12" under cabinets for off-season storage (sort of a pain to get at). She says her cabinets still get marked, (mostly when people cross their legs). If you are unable to increase that seating space, might I suggest push doors, rather than handles so someone doesn't bang a knee or shin.


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Figured I'd come back and update my post since we had our granite installed today. We ended up going with the "steel plate" method and put it so that there was then a ~6" overhang past the steel.

I put 3 screws through the steel into the cabinets basically just to keep it from shifting around. The steel was heavy enough it wouldn't fall down or anything. I then put 1/4" filler pieces around the edges of the cabinets where the steel didn't cover just so it was all the same height.

It seems I can only post 1 picture per post so you can see the other pictures at the link that should show up here somewhere. :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Island Pics Before and After


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

Bbtrix, yes our steel is bolted down. We love how stable it is and how clean the look is without corbels or posts.

Kelemvor--gorgeous! So happy it all worked out for you. I was truly enamored with the look of the steel and if I had been going for an industrial look would have called it done. Can't wait to see your final reveal!

Amy


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RE: Granite Island Overhang - Non-Standard Shape

It seems that you've found a cool solution here without posts. In case anyone else is looking at this, our island is 8' long and we have a 14" overhang. We have posts supporting each corner which are quite substantial in size and fastened to the floor. I love having the aprons as well but be careful when you decide to go that route since it will inhibit the amount of room people have for their lap space when sitting at it. In our case, we only did an Apron around the sides. If you want an apron where people sit, you would either need to raise the island or somehow make the stools a bit shorter. Here is a pic of ours when the counters were being installed.

 photo utf-8BSU1BRzEzODYuanBn_zps65840345.jpg

Since our posts are hollow, we had power run up into them through the floor with outlets inserted and facing inwards towards the stools on each side. They are totally hidden yet really accessible!

Btw, a longer overhang is totally worth it and makes sitting at the island WAY more comfortable!

This post was edited by TB151 on Fri, Mar 14, 14 at 8:40


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