I would hate to give up a regular size oven. I think I would try to fit a 30 inch range in and then just use the oven for storage if you really end up using it so seldom.

Or I would get the biggest built in convection-microwave I could find, maybe with speed cooking too. That would give you a lot of the function of a regular oven, plus it would put your most frequently used appliance, the microwave, in a better place than over the range. You might get a little extra storage that way, I think--above the vent and below the oven. I haven't looked at those in years, but I seem to remember only some of them can be installed under the counter so I would check that carefully.

Here is a link that might be useful: Electrolux speed cooker-microwave-convection oven

Thanks, crl. Yikes, $2,000 - and that doesn't include a cooktop! I do like your idea of a convection/micro going where the stove would go - under the cooktop.

I won't be getting a separate vent/range hood. I've never had one, and I've never missed one.

If I used a microwave daily I honestly wouldn't want it above the range ... I'd want it at a more convenient height. So I'd probably sacrifice some counter space to do one at or slightly above countertop height, perhaps even do a pantry with a micro shelf in it (cheaper than built in)

Slightly above the counter

Or like this but with full depth cabinets beside the pantry for landing space
{{gwi:1647645}}

Well, if the choice is an OTR microwave-convection oven with built in vent or no vent at all, I think I would go for the OTR microwave. If you go with no vent at all, would you have cabinets immediately above the cooktop? I'd think the steam from boiling water for tea would damage those cabinets over time.

Thanks, robotropolis, I do like your idea of built-in, not so high up. I may also have countertop space that is in a less-than-ideal place for prep work, but could be perfect for a microwave. I think my KD does not like the idea of countertop micro - not sure if that's more about the space it takes up or about aesthetics.

Crl - good point about cabinets directly over the cooktop... more to think about! Now, I just want to put in another window over the cooktop.

I get you. I used to cook like a crazy woman -- and pretty well, I'm told. Living alone, working 2 jobs, both in restaurants, I very seldom cook now. If I do, it's on 1 burner, a giant pot, and I freeze things I'll nuke later. So we're similar. LIke me, I plan to be in my home for at least 20 more years, or until I drop dead from overwork. Retirement is not in my future! :) So resale isn't a factor. They can worry about that when I'm dead.

Except for the OTR part, I think your KD is listening to how you actually live. And I'm guessing by "stove" for Thxgiving you mean oven, right? Then the convection/microwave idea is great. I'm thinking all you actually might need is a hotplate! :) Something you can put a cover on and have extra counter space. Going with a smaller stove thing, 24" or 2-burners might be a great idea. I'd look at apartment appliances or even European items, simply because they're almost always much smaller than U.S. items.

Oh- that leads to a question. If you cook as you've described, for what would you use more space in the kitchen? IOW, what difference would it make? Unless like me again, you store other things in your kitchen. I've got paint, building materials, tools, lots of hardware, etc., in my kitchen cabinets.

I look forward to seeing what you build. This is nice because it's not the normal kitchen. People will really need to think outside the box, their own needs, and their resale plans to look at your space. Notice the first thing crl_ said was, "I'd hate to give up a normal oven...." Not about her/us, right?

I'll be watching....... :)

Well, I can't really give advice based on anything but my experiences so I try to frame it that way, rather than saying "you should" which seems rather presumptuous. Hopefully my ideas are at least somewhat helpful in thinking things through even if the wording doesn't suit everyone.

At any rate, I would check code on whether you can have a cooktop under a window. My understanding is that it is okay in some jurisdictions and not in others. If it is okay under code, I think an induction cooktop under a window would be a reasonable combination--I wouldn't want gas in that location as I would be concerned about drafts/wind and the flame, just seems like a less than ideal combination.

Another possibility if you really don't want a vent, would be to do a pot rack above the cooktop. The pots won't mind a bit of steam. And that would give some storage above the cooktop. I have been very happy with pot racks in small kitchen. For me they have been really efficient in use of space and I like the look. I know not everyone does though.

crl_ I realize it's hard to read tone in email and on board posts. We tend to take whatever we read in the frame of mind we have at the time we read it.

I was merely pointing out the difficulty we all have in not viewing something in the eye of our own experience and space. i.e. outside the box. Whether I, you, the Whirlpool Repair Man or God can do without a stove is irrelevant in the scope of what an OP is looking to do. Wasn't making it about you.

Moving on.

The pot rack is a good idea in small space. Particularly since they won't get greasy, either, given the OP's lack of cooking.
I also never thought about a cooktop by a window. Electric would be one thing, but gas... It'd be like putting curtains next to a gas stove. Great choice, right? [eyes rolling]

Oh, one more thought on the standard thirty inch range. It's the most common. So it's the easiest to find. So it's the easiest to find a decent one at a decent price. And it is the easiest size to replace down the road. The cabinets and countertop will likely outlive the appliances (sadly appliances seem to die quickly now). So the ability to easily find a replacement that doesn't require any changes to cabinets and countertops might be useful in ten or so years.

Your other considerations may outweigh those issues entirely, but I think it's worth a quick mention just so you can think it through.

With your scenario, I'd forget a range though from you drawing it's unclear where the existing kitchen is.

I loathe over the range microwaves. Sorry if I'm insulting someones kitchen but I think they are the worst and if the KD is suggesting this shame on him/her.

A 4 burner gas cooktop, if you're accustomed to that is fine. Or you could go down to 2 burner induction and gain counter space. I would build the microwave in under the cooktop which will leave space for a good storage drawer below that. And I'd put in a proper small vent hood which I feel is needed with gas (but not with convection).

From what you are saying it's very likely you could make do with the larger Breville countertop oven and forget a built-in oven.

Also, you might consider an under-the-counter fridge and use any space that formerly occupied for a pantry, which would store a ton.

One of my oldest friends moved into a studio apartment in a hotel situation last year and put in a standard range and fridge in the small kitchen although the building has a dining room. Made no sense. I'd rather use the space for a nice big sink that can double as utility and have a washer/dryer plus more storage.

Not everyone needs a conventional kitchen and there's no shame in wanting one to be nice but practical for you. The only downside I can see would be resale.

Why not put the microwave where it is most convenient, since this is your most-used appliance? Why treat it like a poor relation? It also sounds like you could get by with an under counter refrigerator, which would free up some counter space, add a 24- inch range, and you're good.
In fact, more a kitchenette than a kitchen, if you see what I mean.
You could put a honkin' storage closet in the kitchen that could be used for storing anything; maybe splurge on one of those fantastic closet systems.

One of the advantages of knowing that you're not a cook and that your culinary needs are minimal is that you can throw off your kitchen shackles as you pare down what's in your cabinets! Turkey roaster? gone. Cake pans? gone. Stew pot? gone. Baking powder, flour, sugar, rice? gone. Be brutal and just save the stuff you use. It's so liberating!

Maybe because I live in a climate where I can and do open the windows all the time, the vent thing isn't such a big deal. My MW is OTR for space reasons and it does have a fairly good vent to the outside, but, honestly, I don't turn it on that often and I cook all the time. We've been in this house for 40 years and the 38 year old cabinets we removed were not damaged from cooking. If you boil water on a front burner, the steam is venting to the room, not the undersides of the uppers. Were I you, I'd put that MW wherever seems most convenient and not worry about the vent.

Given the small space you're dealing with, I hope you're looking at frameless cabinets. When every inch counts, they're worth their weight in gold.

Suzannel, I'm not being obtuse, but how exactly are frameless cabinets offering more space than inset, for example? The faceframe on an inset cabinet is out farther, i.e. 12.5, than a framed cabinet, which is more internal space. The doors on a frameless cabinet still take up room, whereas inset cabinet doors come out to the same space as a frameless. How is frameless more?

I do get the framed cabinets, but to tell you the truth, the lack of dust that gets into my inset cabinets vs. overlay cabinets is worth not going with overlay, but the frame to me is a moot point.

What am I missing?

I just wanted to chime in and second the recommendation for a mw/convection combination (or speed oven). Even if you just reheat, it is good to have an option to reheat pizzas, bread and other items that simply taste better when not zapped. I think if it is convenient enough, you will find yourself choosing that option more frequently. I've lived in enough limited configuration places to realize it is nice to have that option.

A friend of mine, who is pretty much of a non cook also, installed a single induction hob beside her gas range and I don't believe she has used the range ever since. She loves having that small device to boil water, etc. and it is super easy to clean.
I like the idea of an induction burner and a convection microwave. Seems it would suit your needs and leave you with more space for whatever. That combo is often seen in small European apartments.

I thought most frameless wins were on lowers -
Wouldn't the side frame take up room that could otherwise be side-to-side drawer space? Wouldn't the frame above and below the drawer take up room that could otherwise be stuff piled into the drawer?

Only chiming in briefly as a fellow non-cook, and big fan of microwaves. In our last home we had an OTR microwave, and we did find the increased height to be less convenient than having it at counter level. Especially for me, since DH is taller.

My ideal would be slightly raised above the counter as robotropolis showed.

We currently have no venting at all, and the main objection I have is the lingering cooking odors, hours after DH (thankfully) does cook us a wonderful meal. I miss having some kind of ventilation for that reason.

Since you know resale isn't a big issue for you, good for you for pursuing a design that fits the way you will use the space!

Ahh, robotropolis.
Drawers makes sense as far as more room.
But the doors? no...ehh?

Frameless cabinets offer more storage space and easier access to the storage space. In a small kitchen, that makes a big difference. One of the many reasons I love ikea cabinets--frameless at an affordable price.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wiki on cabinets

CE - you may be right on the uppers as far as equal available inches, but I still think that a frameless upper is more usable. For instance, this is my upper to the right of the stove

The face frame upper that was there before had a center stile. Each side had the frame. So if I wanted to put that 9 x 13 pan up there, I would have had to push it in short ways and then turn it around behind the style to sit on the shelf. The oil and non-stick spray would enter to the right of the frame and then tuck in behind it, or, if the casseroles were in the way, tipped in high, bottom first and lowered into their assigned space. The basket on the 3rd shelf would require removing the stuff to the left or right of it, getting the basket up or down, and replacing the other stuff. With the other cabinets, I simply filled them to avoid these maneuvers, but then the contents weren't as handy.

I think the critical question is how much room do you have to start with? If you're really short on space, like the OP, then I'd always go with frameless. If you have more room to play with then it probably doesn't matter particularly. I'm just a function over form sort of person.

P.S. I was in the stone yard's showroom over the weekend and realized that all of their sample cabinets (to showcase their counters) are insets.

On the refrigerator, one option is the small bottom freezer LG model. We put that in the kitchen in the first house we owned (that kitchen was 8 x 8 with two doors and a window so size mattered). It has real freezer space, which I think would be important if you microwave a lot--I'm envisioning nuking frozen meals and the like. It is counter depth which is nice in a small space. And it is short, allowing for more storage above it. I actually had a pot rack over mine, but I am 5'7" and dh is taller.

Here is a link that might be useful: 10 cubic foot LG refrigerator

Suzanne, the center stile isn't necessary if one orders butt doors. I hate that thing in the middle and in all the cabinets I'm retrofitting, I'm cutting it out. Nice looking cabinet, BTW.
I love your stoneyard. :)

Crl_ Beware of Wiki. Not only can anyone upload what they want, but as with many thing on the Internet, it doesn't have to be legal, correct, appropriate, blah blah. I read a "how to get a safe tan" from a teenager, for example. Another example is someone has uploaded my entire website to Wiki, without credit to me or my contributors, and including all my typos. So other than Extreme plagiarists, Wiki doesn't carry much weight in my experience.

I still say uppers have the same, given the cabinets are extended out to use the room taken by doors on any other cabinet style. Robotropolis has pointed out that on drawers, you do get 1" more drawer space, side to side.

Good point on the freezer. I'm a nuker, too, and have a 2nd freezer where I store everything I make. Since I cook in bulk and thaw/reheat a little at a time, that's an important element. Sounds like carrieb does the same.

"I use the stove [oven, probably] about 3 times a year - to heat up pizzas and, on Thanksgiving, to make acorn squash."

"The stove top I use once a week or so (one of the four burners) to fry eggs or to heat water for tea."

" I also have a microwave that I use almost daily to heat frozen meals, restaurant leftovers, and microwave pizza."

Looking at how you cook (yes, cook - even using the MW is cooking!)

1. Oven...the idea of a MW/convection oven is a good one. It gives you the functionality of both an oven and MW and, since you don't use the MW and oven at the same time, it won't be an issue that when in use as a MW it's not available as an oven - you only rarely need the oven! If by some chance a miracle happens and you start baking or doing other, more traditional cooking, you will have an oven. (And, while resale is not a factor right now - you never know what will happen in the future and this will help.)

Stove top...you do need this. I would consider a 24" wide cooktop unless cost is a factor (30" cooktops are probably cheaper).
Microwave...this is your most important appliance! Don't bury it somewhere or put it in a less-than-ideal location.

1. Locate the MW where you can access it easily - and that is either counter height or just above the counter, but not as high as an OTR MW is mounted. Unless you are very short, I would not put it below the counter unless you get a MW Drawer.

2. Locate the MW near the refrigerator b/c that's where most of your MW'd food will be coming from.

3. Locate the MW near the sink b/c most MW'd food needs water added (at least leftovers and veggies). I would put it on the opposite side from the DW (yes, you need a DW - even MW'd food generates dirty dishes!)

4. Provide plenty of landing space and work space around the MW.

Budget/Cost...if cost is an important factor, I would probably go with an inexpensive 30" range since all you need is heat for water and eggs. In the long run, I think an inexpensive range + separate MW will be much cheaper than a cooktop + separate oven.

Also, be aware that while ranges still last many, many years, MWs seem to last only a few short years. In addition, separate ovens don't seem to last as long as ranges (at least based on the anecdotal information I've gleaned from both the Kitchens and Appliances Forums). Having a separate MW will allow you to (1) get a more powerful one since combo MW/Ovens often have less powerful MWs and (2) replace it easily when it dies w/o having to replace a more expensive combo appliance just for the MW.
DW...18" is probably wide enough - although more expensive than the standard 24". If you go with 18", consider putting a 6" cabinet next to it (use it for a cutting board or as a "spice" pullout. This way, if you or anyone else decides they need a 24" DW it can be easily retrofitted by removing the 6" cabinet.

(Oh, if you get a 24" cooktop/range, put a 6" cabinet next it as well - for the same reason as above.)

Good luck!

Thanks. I am aware of the limitations of wiki. On the other hand mistakes are typically corrected quickly. I chose it as a source in this instance because it accurately described the issue at hand, IMO, and because it wasn't from a manufacturer or kitchen designer trying to sell their particular product. I also chose it because it was on the first page of google and I didn't want to spend a ton of time digging for a different source when this one is accurate on this point.

If you see something inaccurate on the point at hand on the linked article, I am sure the original poster would benefit from that information n

I have a small kitchen; although I love to cook and my family considers me a good cook I am a.) retired, b.) widowed and c.) don't cook much any longer.

My kitchen has a very nice (large) microwave, a very nice (large) countertop oven (convection) and a very small (one hob) induction plate (that cost all of around $100 2+ years ago).

The oven was the most expensive item. Like Christine, I do tend to cook in 'batches' and freeze (I find it really difficult to cook for one!)

I also have a bottom freezer with pull out drawer (I do miss my French door which was too large for current kitchen).

You might really want to consider a nice MW, a nice countertop (or on a shelf) convection oven and a small induction with one or two hobs

carrieb:

I suggest you step back and take a look at the bigger picture.

How long do you plan to be in this home? The answer to that question should provide you some guidance. If you're going to be selling within 5 years, you need to install the appliances a buyer will want. If you're going to die there, make yourself happy.

Form the OP:

"... I live alone and expect to be in my home for at least another 10-20 years, if not more. Re-sale value is not much of a concern."

OMG! I go out for the day and I come back to a big, very helpful discussion. Thank you! Am going to respond in pieces.

First, CEFreeman - yes, I mean that I use the OVEN only a few times a year! Heating frozen pizzas (or reheating the big ones) and on Thanksgiving for my one & only "real" holiday dish.

Really good question about kitchen storage. Truth is, I could edit down some of it - I have about 10 dishes - for a woman who lives alone & does not entertain, why do I need more than four, say? Same goes for coffee mugs, glasses, spoons, forks, chop sticks. You get the picture. Also have four or five frying pans... and a half a dozen wooden spoons. OK, maybe I have a lot of editing to do.

That said, I store table cloths, cloth napkins and placemats in the living room. Step stool is in the basement (wouldn't it be nice to have one that could fit in the kitchen?) Cat food is stored in the... oh, I need to talk about my 39" x 28" basement landing!

Here's a couple illustrative photos:

OK, so, the basement landing is just outside the kitchen & is 39" x 28", in it I store: cat food, about a half a million winter coats, about half a million winter jackets (OK, I'm exaggerating about the actual number of coats & jackets) umbrellas, hats, gloves, scarves, gardening boots, garden sandals, my plant label file, broom, swifter & Swiffer sheets, a bag of plastic bags, canvas shopping bags, insulated lunch bags, a tree pole pruner and a dustbin.

Do you see a problem with this method of storage. ;-)

OMG.
You're still talking about me.
I have two full sets of dishes and about a half a set of another.
I have a million coats, 5 cats, a dog, a hundred of everything and I've pared down a household of two and after a fire, another 1/2 of that. I still have too much.

Linens? ooooomy. Candles? Books? Stuff that's too good to get rid of?
Think Freecycle. There's one for every community for giving away stuff that's too good to throw away. I've given everything from appliances, cartons of books, dishes, a dog igloo (don't ask) excess tile I should have kept, vinyl siding. ..you get the picture.

One thing: step stool = toe kick drawers! A HA! I got a good suggestion!!

So what's in your basement that you don't go further down? Trolls? The thing we fear as a kid? Is that where it actually lives?

Oh, right, there are candles and paper bags right under the up-bound stops around the corner where you can't see them. Three cats - litter boxes are in the basement, so I'm down there at least once a day for that - plus laundry down there, the aforementioned step-stool, all my tools, paint, and gardening tools that don't fit in the landing/kitchen/outdoor storage.

Oh, why don't I put that stuff that's on the landing in the basement... well... some of it I could, but not the coats & jackets (too dingy.) The tree pole pruner really should go down there, but it's so unwieldy & the steps are steep with a very shallow ceiling. And I want to be able to grab my boots quickly if I want to be outside.

OK, I admit it. Very little of what I do makes sense. I blame it on being single - no one around to moderate my craziness...

I'm planning to go with IKEA cabinets. I'm been playing around with IKEA's Planner program, and that's been helpful, but, unfortunately, the site isn't letting me login, so I haven't been able to save it (& post it here.) As soon as I can post my initial layout ideas, I will.

It sounds like several of you think I should get a regular microwave AND a convection/microwave? That seems to me like it would sort of defeat the purpose of not getting a regular range, no? Budget is a concern for me, but if something makes a lot more sense, and will cost an extra $1,000, for example, I'd consider it. I am planning to move windows & doors around, so I know this won't be a cheap job.

I have been looking around (mostly on Home Depot's website, as I'll probably go with them - unless someone recommends a place to get better value on low-mid budget appliances, and the smaller ranges, cooktops, inductions, convections, etc are definitely pricier than 30" ranges. I'm willing to consider induction, though I've always had gas (except for college & apartment electrics, which I hate) and I like working with it.

So many things to consider! I've been thinking I'd go with a 13.81 cu ft freezer on the bottom fridge, right now, I have a 15.5 cu ft freezer on top, and I use every inch of freezer space, but there's always fridge place to spare.

Am going to post the "so far" picture of my layout. Each square equals 6" in this drawing. My entire first floor is about 12' x 25', with the kitchen area being 12' x 8'. That 12' x 8' does not include the table. In the drawing, the peninsula is about where it is now, and about the same size.

There are a lot of areas (all of it, really) that still needs tweaking. Don't pay much attention to EXACTLY where everything is: the sink & DW (don't have one now, but will probably go for an 18") will be on the peninsula, the range (or cooktop, or whatever...) will be around the middle of the back wall, the fridge somewhere on the wall where the steps are.

My feeling is large microwave, which can be under $200 and large Breville counter top oven, about $250. People who have those say they don't tend to use their larger ovens as often.

The microwave/convection is way more than $450 and will require a learning curve. For a family, no brainer. But I don't think it's necessary from what you've said. But it's a bold step to go minimal.

I don't have time to get into layout but the one at 23:16 doesn't make much sense to me. There are folks here who will help you work it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Breville Oven

My 0.02 (worth what you pay for it :) ):

Don't buy any built-in appliances. By that I mean anything that doesn't have dimensions standardized across the industry and needs to have cabinetry or countertop cut to fit it, like cooktops; some wall ovens are also like this. OTR microwaves are more expensive than countertop ones, and they require labor to install/uninstall, so if I were you I'd get a countertop one. We used to have our MW on the counter; after reno it's in an upper cabinet. It was more convenient on the counter. (It's better for us to have it where it is now, but there is no doubt it was easier to reach on the counter.)

As for the convection/microwave combo: that is an optional convenience but definitely not required. I cook for a family of 4 every day, usually from scratch, have been cooking for a couple of decades, and have never had one of these. My mom is an excellent cook in her 70's and has never had one either. Would it be nice to have? Sure, and so would a lot of other things. But as a pp said, they do have a learning curve and cost more than a plain microwave, so buy one if you think it would be fun; but it's not a must-have.

Re. countertop oven: my mom has one and finds it more convenient than her range oven sometimes, when she's just cooking for 2. But she also has a TINY kitchen and it takes up counter space that she really needs for other things (in fact she has moved it to her back porch). So in your case, if your kitchen will also be limited on surface area, it would probably be more sensible to get a normal 30-in range.

If I were you I'd stick to the basics: 30-inch range with an inexpensive range hood (ours was from Lowe's, works fine), smallish upright fridge (the kind with the freezer on top and no ice dispenser in the door), countertop MW, either 18- or 24-inch DW depending on your space. Or no DW if you don't wash many dishes; it used to take me most of a week to fill mine when I was single, by which time -- yuck. Would be a good idea to have a 24-inch cabinet near the sink in that case, so it can be swapped out for a DW later on if needed.

We've bought appliances at Sears in the past, no trouble for the most part (you probably realize that Kenmore appliances aren't actually made by Sears). And we have an Ikea kitchen and I love it.

Good luck!

p.s. A range oven is a fine place to store big pots as long as you remember they're there before you turn it on. :) (i.e. no paper/plastics.)

I have always stored cookie sheets in the bottom drawer of my range, even in my new range that has a warming drawer instead of a storage drawer down there. Again, nothing combustible -- just in case.