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| I was hoping to make this thread not only informational for myself, but that other information regarding drawers could be collected together. This is all about function. Obviously to maximize storage and ease of use, drawers are the way to go. Some things that are not so obvious are about framed, frameless and inset cabinets. Another is how do cabinet manufacturers differ (if any) on the available usage. The usage of 3 drawer vs 4 drawer (or even 5 drawer) stacks. Determining the width of cabinets for your kitchen. If you have answers to any of these please proceed. Framed, frameless and inset cabinets utilize differing INTERIOR usable measurements. Please specify the type of cabinets you have (framed, frameless or inset) your manufacturer (or custom), the size of the cabinet, and what the entire TOP drawer INTERIOR measurements are (width, length, height). I stated top drawer only for comparison purposes since only the height should change from drawer to drawer. Perhaps certain manufactures have better storage in their cabinet lines. Why did you choose cabinets with 4 drawer (and 5 drawer) stack when you did? How many do you have? How did you deal with the "horizontal lines" differences between your 3 and 4 drawer stacks? Just one aesthetic question isn't too bad. Though wider cabinets are highly prized here, why did you choose narrower cabinets, instead of the widest available that would fit in your kitchen? If there is anything else, I haven't though of to ask to have this thread be as complete as possible regarding drawers, please feel to add.
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Follow-Up Postings:
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| Thank you for starting this thread. It would be great if a thread such as this could end up being a 'sticky', since drawers seem to be a recurring issue. This is right where I'm at in the planning so I'll be watching this thread with great interest. Also, it's so helpful when people post pics of the interiors of their drawers (!) but what would be supremely helpful is if they'd also state what the dimensions are of said drawer. |
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| Just met with my cabinet maker yesterday for hopefully the last time before construction. My kitchen is entirely drawers except for trash and pull out pantries. Here is how the interior drawer sizes come out. If you have glides on the bottom of the drawers with inset cabinetry, the internal height is approximately 1 1/2 inches less than the opening measurement. My top drawers are 5.5 inches giving me 4" of height on the inside. I have 14 drawers this size around the kitchen in varying widths. Two will be spice drawers, three will have dividers in them. One for silverware, one for baking needs such as rolling pin, wooden spoons, measuring cups etc. etc. and the third for spatulas, spoons, meat thermometer etc. in the cooking area. The others will hold fry pans, ebilskiver pans, shallow casserole dishes, towels, coffee and tea stuff etc. My cabinets are 27" deep vs. 24" deep. 21" 4 drawer stack: (2) 2 drawers 5.5" : Internal 4" high by 16.5" wide by 22.5" deep. 2 drawers 6.25" Internal 4.75" Other widths and depths:
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- Posted by catbuilder (My Page) on Sat, Feb 2, 13 at 10:28
| Before you get too far into this, I just want to state for the record that there is NO DIFFERENCE in the size of a drawer for an inset cabinet vs a drawer in any other framed cabinet. Drawer slides come in standard lengths, and the typical base cabinet slide (21" or 22" depending on the manufacturer) will work for the same size drawer whether it is installed inset or overlay. The width (side to side) of the drawer box does not change if the drawers are installed inset. Only the drawer front (the piece you see on the front of the drawer) changes in size. The height of the drawer will remain the same, because there are always intermediate rails on framed cabinets, whether inset or overlay. Of course, the drawer sizes in frameless cabinets will not be the same as those in framed. The usable interior measurement of a drawer will also depend on what type of slide is used. Side mounted slides will allow drawers to be taller, but also they will be narrower (side to side). Under mounted slides result in drawers that can be wider (side to side), but they are not as tall. |
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| Ours are all custom but a mix of framed inset and frameless, just to keep it interesting. :) Interior top drawer dimensions: 20" x 15" x 4.25" in a 4-drawer 18" frameless cabinet We went as wide as could fit and did deep drawers for all but one. (These four are all we have, plus a sink cabinet and a small 12" door cabinet--small kitchen!) The four-drawer was for potholders, napkins, wraps, etc. and works well. We lined up top drawers in frameless and didn't worry about lower drawers, except that we have Shaker style cabinets and made the rails narrower in the four-drawer bank for aesthetics--cabinetmaker's idea I think. Love it. Inset drawers are on a separate wall so didn't worry about lining them up. Top and inset drawers are all slab. DH wishes the deep inset drawers were Shaker style too but I like them as is. Two years in, I don't regret any of our drawer choices, if that helps! |
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- Posted by angela12345 7b NC Mixed-Humid (My Page) on Sat, Feb 2, 13 at 14:03
| I have posted this other places before, but I am going to try to consolidate it *all* in one place. My kitchen cabinets from UltraCraft are semi-custom. LOVE them. They are Frameless cabinets that allow size modifications in 1/16" increments to height, width, and depth (or all 3) at no additional cost. So, go ahead and make your uppers 13" or 14" deep for those extra large mixing/salad bowls and charger plates, and maximize your storage space for example storing glasses 4 deep instead of 3 deep. Have deeper base cabinets. Make your toekick slightly shorter so you have an extra inch or two for more drawers height. Cut down on the fillers you need by making your cabinets the exact width you need them, instead of being forced to choose from 3" increments. I like that all my uppers are flat across the bottom (no frame/dividers between cabinets), so I could install one long plugmold and one long under cabinet light, then hide it all with lightrail at the front. Also, standard is Blum full extension soft close drawer glides, soft close doors, no charge for finished sides (like end of cabinet run), all dovetail drawers with fully captured bottoms, and bunches of other stuff is standard. 100 year warranty. Cabinet Decisions - I emailed this part to a friend recently, so am copying here ... 2. Then you want to decide on the cabinet boxes ... framed or frameless ? Some mfgs only make one or the other, but not both, so this will knock out other mfgs. Framed cabinets have a frame on the face of the cabinet box that the doors attach to and allows for inset doors as well as all 3 overlay styles (traditional, partial, and full overlay). On frameless, the doors attach directly to the cabinet box sides instead of a face frame. Frameless are typically full overlay, but inset is also possible. I think a small partial overlay is possible on frameless if you are using semi-custom or custom cabinets - you would order slightly smaller doors so a little of the cabinet box would show. Traditional overlay is not possible on frameless because the cabinet box sides are not wide enough to show the traditional 1"-2" of the face frame. (My cabinets are frameless) The disadvantage of framed is you give up useable space in drawers/pullouts and ease of access on cabinets with doors. This is because the drawer or pullout has to clear the face frame that goes around the opening, so they are narrower from side to side and also shallower from top to bottom. In a small kitchen, the extra useable space from frameless could make a big difference. Estimates say frameless gives 10-15% more space, so 100 inches of framed would be 110 inches in frameless. To me, an extra 10 inches of drawer space is huge, especially when you don't have much to begin with !! Frameless cabinets with doors also offer easier access - there is no face frame creating a 1-2" obstruction on the left, right, and top inside the cabinet doors, also there is typically no center stile between double doors in frameless. For full overlay doors, there is very little difference in the looks of framed vs frameless. From an exterior appearance standpoint, these cabinets will basically look alike. Because the doors are full overlay, you don't see much or any of the frame and would have to open the door or drawer to see if the cabinet was framed or frameless. For inset doors, the framed cabinets would have a wider frame around the door than the frameless cabinet would. In the below two pics, the cabinet on the left is framed, and the one on the right is frameless. Looking only at the size of the opening, see how the drawer for frameless is wider from left to right and also has more open space from top to bottom. The useable drawer space is a couple inches more in each direction in the frameless. If they both had the same size full overlay exterior drawer face on them, they would look alike from the exterior. You would not be able to see the useable interior space until you opened the drawer. If they both had inset doors, the framed cabinets would have a much wider "frame" around the door and drawer. 3. The third thing to consider is the cosmetics ... the door style you like, the drawer style (slab/flat/plain drawer front or drawer front that matches your door style), as well as wood species (cherry, oak, maple, etc), and stain or paint colors, glazing, distressing, finish/sheen, etc. (My cabinets are slab drawer, raised panel door, cherry with a chestnut stain, no additional finishes or glazes) 4. The fourth thing to consider is stock cabinets vs semi-custom vs custom cabinet mfgs. Stock cabinets are available in 3" width increments (cabinets have to be width of 12", 15", 18", etc), filler strips fill in gaps between cabinets and wall or appliances, you have to choose from the heights and depths they offer, and there are very few options available, which can be pretty pricey to add on. Semi-custom cabinets vary by manufacturer in what customizations and options they offer, but they offer many more options than stock and allow sizing modifications. With custom cabinets, there should be no limitations including drawings for non-standard items, custom molding profiles, door styles, alternate wood species, custom stains & finishes, construction, accessories and options. (My cabinets are semi-custom) 5. Finally, you want to consider the cabinet construction. Not that this is the least important ! It is one of the most important things. Pretty much all the other stuff is just the "pretty" stuff, LOL. This has to do with how well the cabinets are made - are the drawers stapled, dowelled, glued, dovetail ? What materials are the cabinets made of ? etc, etc. Drawer depths Some people choose to have their base cabinets deeper from front to back for a number of different reasons, for example to make the front of the cabinet even with the front of the refrigerator so the standard fridge looks like a built in/counter depth. Or they may want a larger countertop work surface. This can be accomplished by using deeper base cabinets or by using standard 24" deep bases and installing them a couple inches out from the wall then covering the full space with the countertop material. If you want to do this and order deeper bases, be sure to specify the drawers are deeper from front to back as well ! Some mfgs will still only install the standard depth drawer even though the cabinet box is larger. Drawer Heights The height of my drawer fronts do not line up all the way around the 4 sides of my kitchen, but do line up when you are looking at any one section at a time. I have 2 stacks together that are 6-12-12 separated by a stove. On the opposite corner of the kitchen are 2 stacks that are 6-6-9-9. What helps is that my stacks are caddy-cornered across the kitchen with appliances and base cabinets with doors separating them ... it would be very hard to look in any direction where you could see the "mis-matches" at one time. Some people have drawer stacks right next to each other where the drawer heights do not 'line up' and others have all the drawer bases in their entire kitchen with the exact same horizontal lines all the way around. My one advice ... find out the interior useable height of your drawers ahead of time. My Ultracraft cabinets are frameless so have more than framed would. They have undermount glides. On the 6-12-12 stacks, the useable interior drawer height is 4, 10.5, 9.5 (top to bottom on stack). Where this becomes an issue ... I wanted to store all of my pans, pots, etc vertical on their edges in the drawers so they wouldn't have to be stacked. The middle 10.5" drawers are tall enough for all of the casserole/baking dishes and pie tins, the roasting pan, and almost all of the pans, pots, and lids to stand on edge (the 9.5" drawers are not tall enough for a couple of those items to stand on edge). Both height drawers are definitely tall enough for all of the big pots (even the 8qt stockpot) that I own, except for the huge "canning" pot which is on the top shelf of one of my 15" deep uppers. Obviously, neither drawer is tall enough for my 12" pans/skillets to stand on edge (arrggh!). I have really been struggling with how to store these. Right now I have them flat in the bottom of the 9.5" height bottom drawer. Big waste of real estate !! I wish I had a shallower drawer I could put the big skillets in, like 6-6-6-12 so the frying pans were flat in drawers 2 & 3 and the pots were in the bottom drawer. Or even better(?!) if I had made my drawer heights 6-9-15 that would have given me 4, 7.5, 12.5 useable. My tallest 8qt pots are 7" tall, so all of them could have gone in the middle drawer and everything on edge could have gone in the bottom drawer (including the 12" skillets!). Google for images of drawers with pans on edge. On the other side of the kitchen with the 6-6-9-9 stacks, the useable interior drawer height is 4, 4.75, 6.75, 7 (top to bottom). I use the top 6" drawers all around the kitchen for silverware, spatulas and all the other kitchen gadgets, in-drawer knife block, foil wax paper cling wrap and plastic baggies, potholders, dish towels, etc. All of those things fit with no problem in these drawers including the ladle and the box grater. The 3rd drawer holds all of the tupperware and is the perfect height for this - 6 would have been too shallow and 12 would have been too deep. The bottom drawer is where we currently keep the paper and plastic grocery bags until we carry them for recycling. (note: the interior drawer heights listed above vary slightly for the bottom two 12" drawers, the top two 6" drawers, and for the bottom two 9" drawers because of an interior cross support and space to clear the granite without scraping at the top) ALSO: the drawer face to interior useable space ratio will be DIFFERENT depending on if your drawer face is inset, partial overlay, or full overlay, and depending on if you have undermount glides or sidemount glides as catbuilder says above. For example on my 6-6-9-9 four drawer stack ... 1.5" counter + 6 + 6 + 9 + 9 + 4.5" toekick = 36" finished height. My useable heights are 4, 4.75, 6.75, 7 = 22.5" total useable height. I lose 1.25-2.25" useable height for each drawer. Drawer widths Going around my kitchen ... first I have a 6" wide pullout broom closet. Next are two 30" wide fridge/top freezers. There are full depth cabinets above the fridges with an adjustable shelf. Then a 24" full height cabinet with pantry space at the top, MW, a single oven, and 6" high drawer under oven (4.5" useable height). The 21" 3 drawer 6-12-12 is to the left of my stove. Top drawer holds knife block, sharpener, scissors, trivets, potholders. 2nd drawer holds baking dishes on their edge. Bottom drawer is basically empty - it has one 8qt stockpot. If my drawer heights had been 6-9-15 instead (did I say grrrr?), I would have used the middle drawer as a bread drawer and stored the bakeware on edge in the bottom drawer. Next is the stove (Whirlpool GGE388LXS Electric Range w/Dbl ovens). The 32" 3 drawer 6-12-12 is to the right of the stove. Top drawer holds spatulas, spoons, ladles, wood spoons, basting brushes, meat thermometer, etc - things that are used at the stove. 2nd drawer holds frying pans, the smaller pots (1qt 2qt 3qt), and lids all on their edges. Bottom drawer holds 8qt pots. Also, the 12" skillets with lids, splatter screens, and griddle are all stacked in one stack flat in bottom of drawer, Grrrrrrr. If they were in the drawer with the other frying pans instead of taking up real estate here, that lone 8qt pot in my other cabinet would have been here with the other pots. Turn the corner and next is the first dishwasher and then a 36" sink base with Ticor S405D sink (70/30 double bowl). LOVE !!! <3 The 17" 4 drawer stack 6-6-9-9 sits between the trash area/future ice maker and the peninsula and is on the opposite corner of the kitchen from the other drawer bases. The top drawer holds foil, wax paper, cling wrap, plastic baggies, chip clips, and restaurant menus. The 2nd drawer is our "junk" drawer and has some of everything including screwdrivers, clothespins, matches, flashlights, sewing kit, lint brush, etc. The 3rd drawer holds medicine, bandaids, alcohol, peroxide, as well as dish towels and plastic utensils from takeout restaurants in a tub. The bottom drawer is for "tupperware without partners" - bowls and lids with no matches (haha!). The 36" 4 drawer stack 6-6-9-9 forms the peninsula. The top drawer holds all eating utensils (silverware and kid utensils), serving utensils, chopsticks, handheld can opener, wine opener in a strategically easy-to-access location : ), etc. The 2nd drawer holds all the other kitchen gadgets that aren't to the left and right of the stove like shrimp deveiners, graters, whisks, rolling pin, pizza rolling cutter-thingy, mashers, salad tongs, etc, etc. The 3rd drawer holds tupperware with their matching lids. The bottom drawer holds paper and plastic grocery bags until we carry them for recycling. I don't like lazy susans or corner cabinets, so in the blind corner is a 26" all door base cabinet that opens out the backside to where the barstools sit. Handles Drawer Organizers These are not my cabinets ... examples of pans stored vertically ... This is my kitchen ... |
This post was edited by angela12345 on Sun, Feb 3, 13 at 14:36
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| What an amazing and helpful post! Thank you! I need to finalize my drawer heights and this post was a big help. Do you have any pantry shelves? I also have to decide the height of my pantry shelves. They will be 24" deep and about 36" wide. I am thinking about putting can racks in them, but I am not sure if they are sturdy enough. I ordered 1 last week so I could see how strong they are. Peke (Would love to see pics>) |
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| That is an amazingly helpful post. Thank you!!! I'm looking forward to the pictures. |
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| With frameless cabinets do you have to use those hinges that do not let the door open all the way? European?? I used those hinges on my last kitchen and hated that they wouldn't open all the way. Peke |
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| Thank you for posting! Very helpful post and quite timely for me. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. |
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| Some general notes- The reveal on frameless is almost always narrower than the reveal possible on framed full overlay due to the hinges used. The only exception I know of is Brookhaven who notch the frame to use the same hinge for most door styles. This shows up in the doors and the drawers. The most commonly used of the better undermount glides are only available in 3" increments. Accuride undermount come in 2" increments. Side mount glides come in 1". Between brands using the same construction the main difference is in top opening height- top row varies from 4.5 to 5.5". Loss of vertical clearance, width, and total depth can vary based on brand of glide by 1/4". Thickness of drawer box is the other obvious factor in width. Catbuilder is correct that the depth and width for inset drawers is the same as overlay framed. Also worth noting that some brands will either automatically use narrower stiles for overlay (QCCI uses 1") or will optionally change them on request. Even some semi custom brands will "relocate intermediate rail" at a pretty nominal charge (Showplace will) any custom or "almost custom" brand should as well. (sometimes called "alter face") You can also "delete intermediate" rails in insets- again depending on brand. For instance the rail between the two lower drawers on a 3 drawer inset cabinet- makes opening heights match while giving you another 1.5" clearance. Note that some brands use intermediate stretchers in frameless which take up 3/4" vertical clearance. If they do I always spec them to be removed. Many even semi custom brands now do widths in either 1/16 or 1/8" increments, some free as Angela notes, other are really nominal in the scope of things. AFAIK every brand charges at some point for an increase in depth. Most brands offer wall cabinets deeper in insets as standard, varies from 13, 13.5, 14. I'd avoid any brand that has a standard 12 for inset walls and then wants to charge to make em work. Peke- there are hinges of that type that open wider. Some makers will change to those at a charge, some won't- be very careful- they are that way because the reveal on frameless is so tight. The restriction keeps the doors from rubbing. It can be done, just have to know what your doing to avoid a problem. |
This post was edited by jakuvall on Sun, Feb 3, 13 at 11:41
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| angela12345: You are a goddess! I'm keeping your whole post for reference. It's the best guide to kitchen cabinets on the net!!! It's early days for me yet, but cabinets are a deep and thorny issue and they take time to get delivered, so I'm doing my homework. Or, I was, until you posted your dissertation for us all. Thank you! Heidi |
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| I have seen cabinets where the door and drawers are a full one inch thick. Does that mean the face frame has to be one inch thick as well? Also, what would the upcharge run on that? Would that 1/4 inch be really noticeable in looks on an inset shaker style door?
Rawers |
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| Thank you for the time and effort you all put into this! Such helpful information! The only thing you failed to address...... HOW do you get thru all the sleepless nights and the stress??? :) |
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| Jakuval, in an inset cabinet, what combination of drawers do you sell the most? How is a cabinet base attached to the unit? Is it just a 6" high board with some moulding added to it so that the 6" piece is also the face frame below the bottom drawer? Does that make sense? |
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| Quiltgirl-drawer combos are specific to the layout, client needs, and preferences. Subbase Attachment can vary- ask your maker As to questions in other thread- For the door style with the cove it is very noticeable, |
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| Angela12345 - Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! not only is this information helpful to most people, it is especially helpful to me since I am leaning toward ultracraft cabinets. i love that they will upsize for no additional cost. Do you know if ultracraft has a microwave cabinet? my dealer said that they don't but I saw something in their brochure that suggests that they do. I'm a little unclear about your microwave placement. Can you be more specific about where you have your microwave? Thanks again. |
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- Posted by SparklingWater (My Page) on Mon, Mar 4, 13 at 8:47
| NYMK-I have the UC brochure and it lists a MW cabinet. What do you think about the distance between drawers or drawers with a door below on UC? Does it seem greater than face frame cabinets to you? Not as snug? Thanks. |
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