Are you thinking a single wall oven mounted under a countertop? Or double wall ovens?

Won't you miss having seating in the kitchen? The dining is a bit far away. Since you like entertaining, there won't be a comfortable way for your guests to hang out in the kitchen with you.

Are there no windows in the kitchen? Just ones where the seating was? Where does the door in the middle of the south wall lead?

The wall oven is single, but mounted in a floor to ceiling cabinet, storage above & below.

The only windows are by the seating area. The front window is 7' wide and too low to fit cabinetry. The south wall doors in the LR and Dining are exterior doors, the one in the LR being the main entrance.

As for losing the seating, what do you think of this pic; would something similar to this work if we take out part of the wall between the Kitchen & LR? Not the angled design necessarily, but I like built in tabletop. I worry though that it's too close to the front door.

You're missing some diagram of countertops (to the left of the range to the DW, yes?

For me, I would move the DW to the Left of the sink.
My prep/cook space is between the sink and the range.
I wouldn't want the DW right in the people for people to pull-out/reach into while I'm cooking.

Also, can you take down the sink wall down to countertop, so you can have 2 seats on the other side, like these examples?

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This post was edited by huango on Fri, Jan 9, 15 at 9:30

So it's a wall oven right next to the cooktop? I think a landing zone for that wall oven would be good.

How big is the dining room? Could you please post a floor plan for the entire floor with measurements?

clr, I do worry that there is no landing space for the oven. But where to put it? Everything is so cramped. I didn't diagram the existing cabinets in the first couple pics so I added the existing cabinets to the image below. Everything goes, but I envision L shaped on the north and west wall, and then another little row of cabinets along the east wall, where I show the fridge in the 2nd picture. This is just an initial idea. It doesn't feel quite right and that's why I'm here seeking guidance.

This is the whole floor plan with measurements.

Thanks!

Any idea if the wall between the kitchen and family room is load bearing?

If it's not, could you open that wall, steal a few feet from the family room, and make a galley kitchen that you could walk through to the family room? Then you could put your fridge and ovens on the right hand wall, swap the DW to the other side of the sink, and put a stretch of counter to the right of the sink, with the cooktop.

Same as jlc I also think that a galley can work.

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More thoughts-- you have a ton of living space in contrast to the tiny kitchen.

If you are able to open that wall into the family room, you could expand the galley kitchen way into that room. You could even switch the dining room and family room, if that would function better. You could change the window in the FR into a door to the deck for grilling. You could end the left hand countertop run in a bar open to the room, with barstool seating.

For something a little different...

It entails moving the "left" Kitchen wall. The entire wall + closet moves 25.5" (you can play with it some, but the FR door does limit the distance you can move the wall/closet. I assumed you would want to keep the closet. I probably wouldn't move that wall much more, though, b/c it's encroaching on the LR. (As you'll see when we get to the layouts, there are other encroachments as well.) The half-wall will need to be reduced as well.

Here's what I mean:

And here's the first layout with the explanation of the changes: Wall & closet move, doorway changes, etc.

Note: Selecting/clicking on a picture will take you to a larger version.

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Layout #1:

Layout # 1 Zone Map

Layout #2

What about a range instead of cooktop and single wall oven? I realize that might be out of budget given that you are reusing existing appliances. But it often makes sense in a small kitchen (the kitchen in our first house was 8 x 8 with two doors and a window so I often grin when people on here call their kitchens small).

What room do you actually hang out in? The family room or the living room? Do you use the rooms as labeled? Would you prefer that any of the rooms be used differently? This floorplan is very separate, quite against today's trend of the big open space. Are you interested in a big open space or do you like the fact that the rooms are very separate?

With regards to the primary Kitchen work zones, both Layout 1 and Layout 2 are the same.

• There is nice separation of the Cleanup Zone from the Prep and Cooking Zones.

There is plenty of workspace in the right places - in the Prep Zone especially (both Prep Zones!). The Primary Prep Zone has 42" b/w the corner and cooktop, another 16" b/w the corner and the sink, and the corner itself. The Secondary Prep Zone has the entire peninsula plus approx 21" b/w the cooktop and corner.
The Cooking Zone and Prep Zone are protected from through traffic by the peninsula. To go around the peninsula, traffic will give these zones a wide berth when coming in from the front door in the LR, from the door in the DR, as well as traveling from the DR/stairway and the rest of the house and from the LR/FR/Library/Office and the rest of the house.
The peninsula seating is conducive to conversation. The seats are far enough "down" that they are out of the 48" doorway to the Office/Library/FR/PR. Note that seating overhangs are the minimum recommended by the NKBA (15"). The peninsula is all one height - counter-height (36" off the floor).
Others can access the refrigerator and MW without getting in the way of those working in the Kitchen. Yet both the MW and refrigerator can be easily accessed by those workers.
Easy Reach (upper cabinet)...it's shown as 24" along one side and 40" along the other side. If you cannot get that, try for a 24"x19" and then you could have a 21" upper cabinet next to it. Try not to have an upper cabinet that's less than 18" wide - unless you'd like a pullout like the ones linked below. They're designed for 9" or 12" cabinets. So, you could go with a 24"x24" Easy Reach and then get a 12" cabinet pullout and a 4" or 5" filler pullout or a 9" cabinet pullout and 6" or 7" filler pullout (you may have to finagle the measurements a bit).

Upper Wall Cabinet Pullouts:
Rev-A-Shlef Cabinet Pullout Hood Organizer with Wood Adjustable Shelves (available in 9" & 12")
Cabinet Pullout Organizer with Stainless Panel (available in 9")
Cabinet Pullout Organizer with Wood Adjustable Shelves (available in 9" & 12")

Upper Filler Pullouts:
Filler Pullout Organizer with Stainless Panel (available in 3" & 6")
Filler Pullout Organizer with Wood Adjustable Shelves (available in 3" & 6")

Base Filler Pullouts (for the one shown b/w the corner susan and sink cabinet):
Six Rev-A-Shelf Base Filler Pullouts (available in 3", 6", & 9") Note the cabinet turned 90 degrees in the peninsula - it faces the LR. This is a better use of space than a corner cabinet. The cabinet is 27" wide to act as filler inside the kitchen b/c you need at least 3" of filler on both sides of a corner to ensure drawers/doors (and pulls/knobs) clear each other on both sides. if you have an appliance (e.g., range or warming drawer) right next to the corner, you will need more to clear the appliance doors/handles.
Layout #1:

• There's a...

Do you really need two bathrooms on a floor that has no bedrooms? Could you eliminate the full bath, make the current DR + Bathroom into the Kitchen and the current Kitchen into the new DR? Something like this:

Then, Layout #3:

Zone Map:

Another alternative can be to void the corner or use it from the closet side. Then you can have a cab (width depending on the amount of filler needed) b/w the wall oven and the rangetop before the corner.

On the fridge side, if doable you can use some cabs to make a bench and continue using your table.

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So, this wouldn't be cheap. However, your overall floor plan has a lot of oddities. Enough that if I were doing any remodels, I'd be thinking about the whole house.

1) Your proposed kitchen space, in addition to being tight, has sort of a tunnel effect. It is a long rectangle with light only coming from one of the short walls, which results in a room that feels far less bright than if the light were coming in from one of the long walls. Or if there were light coming in on multiple sides.

2) You have an extra full bath off the dining room. This is odd. Who using the dining room is going to need to shower? Or who, having just showered, wants to walk through the dining room in a towel?

3) You have a library, an office, a living room, and a family room. There is a fair amount of function redundancy there. If you have redundant rooms, then all the non-redundant-first-order-of-business rooms need to already be large and awesome. Clearly space is not allotted wisely if you have a tight, dark kitchen and a bunch of bonus/redundant rooms. Some of that space is definitely better allotted to the kitchen.

4) You have an extra front door.

5) I assume all the bedrooms are upstairs? Getting to the upstairs from most of the house is a real hike. You have go through absolutely everything, and then through the dining, then upstairs. The stairs access is really out of the way.

6) The library -- which is a traditionally quiet, private room -- is open to the family room.

So:

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a) Losing a bathroom as someone else suggested really hurts home value, but I agree that bathroom is not doing anything for you where it is. What I would suggest instead is creating a ground floor bedroom in the current dining room, which would make the that full bath location make sense. It'd be an ensuite bedroom. That location is also nice because it would be an ensuite bedroom with access to the deck. Could count as a ground floor master.

In addition to keeping the bathroom, you'd also be adding a bedroom to your total count in the house, which adds home value. And for people looking to age in place or with elderly visitors (or really, for anybody who has ever sprained an ankle), a ground floor bedroom can be a real selling feature.

Unfortunately, the barrier to creating this bedroom is the stairs location. You don't want people to have to go through a bedroom to go upstairs.

The stairs going down to the basement are fine, but the ones going upstairs would have to be moved. That is an expensive thing to do, but considering the value it adds (an ensuite ground floor bedroom) and the fact that you could put the stairs in a much handier, more natural spot, the move may pay for itself in added equity.

Also, by making this wing of the house totally private by moving the stairs, the second front door makes more sense. The ground floor bedroom could act as an office with a private...

This is a very productive discussion, thank you so much. I wish I knew of such a forum five years ago! I suppose ought to have mentioned that the kitchen is just the latest part of a whole house remodel, actually one of many remodels this home has seen.

The original house (c. 1950) was single story, 30'x30', 2 BR, 1 bath, attached 1 car garage. A couple of additions were made on the rear of the home, 2 bedrooms became 3, I think the kitchen was extended, all before my husband purchased the home. He built (not solo, he employed a general contractor) a second story to add to 2 more bedrooms and a full in-law apartment. The garage (current DR) became a family room, and that odd staircase led to two BRs above; the 3/4 bath was used by the teens who inhabited the upstairs BRs. The apt has a separate exterior entrance and a second floor deck. By the time I met my husband, the 4 children and in-laws were gone and he was alone in this overly large house that was an unsalable albatross. We married 6 years ago. We made the decision to keep the house and commenced making little changes to make better use of the space.

The remodeling has been an evolution rather than a plan. We donâÂÂt have a budget so much as a routine portion of our income goes for our endless little projects, and we really enjoy the work. It may seem that we are going about it a haphazardly, but we have put a lot of contemplation into adapting our home to how we live, with a conscious disregard for future resale. Just one example, my husbandâÂÂs passion is restoring vintage audio equipment, and this is an essential consideration for us. So our plans include specialized work spaces, custom built equipment storage and shelving for the collection of vinyl records, strategies for acoustics, etc.

Anyhow, initially the 3 ground floor BRs became a master suite, family room, office (I work from home), the former FR became DR. My 2 daughters moved back home while they attended grad school and the in-law apartment was an ideal arrangement. Now that the nest is (we hope) permanently empty, weâÂÂve decided to put the house back together as a single family. We do have long range contingency plans for future accessibility needs. ThereâÂÂs so much to do that we must always prioritize resources. I advocated strongly for the move of that stairway but finally gave it up. The floor plans shown here demonstrating that move are killing me because I know the possibilities the change would open up. However, we've evaluated the job, realize we can't do it without hiring pros and we're daunted by the cost. Our barn needs a new roof this summer or it's going to cave in, and on and on.

I digress; so back to the kitchen. We hadnâÂÂt really considered moving or resizing the kitchen and I thought all I was asking about here was cabinet and appliance arrangement. So much constructive advice has been given. ThereâÂÂs a lot here to digest, my mind is...

After your last post, I think one of Buehl' s layouts would work best.

I do think it's a great idea to plan toward eventually moving the stairs up to the FR area, and make the DR area into a first floor master.

Good luck with your renovations!

It's funny, we had a master suite on the first floor, and decided to move it upstairs to gain first floor living space. If we ever had a short term need for a first floor BR, we'd put it in the office. Longer term the DR would be a good choice, easy to expand that bath and make it accessible.

See where I've changed the stairs so you enter from the FR instead? That's what I'd like to do now in lieu of moving the whole staircase. Also I'd like to turn that side window into a door to the deck.

As for the kitchen, what if you look at it this way? Get rid of that wall entirely, closet is now in the office. What could you do with this open space? That half wall arrangement can easily change. The wide entrance to the DR could shrink. The door to the FR could move, but it needs to stay to one side or another; there's a TV on that wall.

How low is the window on the front side of the kitchen space? Is it too low for a counter to run there?

Lots of space without that wall and closet, wow! You have lots more options now. I wish I had a drafting program on my Kindle :-) I think you could work in a small foyer now the dividing wall is gone.

You may want to start a new post with the plan you have above, and your specific wants/needs, and state that that's where the kitchen *has* to go.

The cooktop really needs to be on a wall - so that means your sink will be on a peninsula (or island) and will now display your dirty dishes and cooking/prepping mess to everyone - including the LR where you say you want to keep more formal for guests, etc.

"... Our 2 cats like to hang out with us and theyâÂÂre not allowed on the LR seating. We have devices that keep them off, so itâÂÂs always clean for company ... With intimate company we tend to gather in the LR. ..."

I recommend keeping part of the wall to help isolate the inevitable kitchen messes from the LR. I'd rather see a pass-through or door to the FR than removal of the entire wall b/w the Kitchen and LR.

In addition, with less wall space, getting an oven stack may be more difficult b/c now you have (1) a refrigerator, (2) a tall oven stack, and (3) the cooktop that all need a wall - and your top wall may not be long enough to reasonably accommodate them. You may have to eliminate most, if not all, of that half wall to allow everything along that wall (if it will even fit then - including the necessary landing/workspace b/w and around them).

buehl, good point about hiding the kitchen mess from the LR, but don't get the idea that the LR is some pristine parlor. We're very casual. We just like to have a few seats in the house that we can sit on without needing lint brushes.

I like (love!) your first 2 layouts, which not only widen the space but flip the work and cleanup areas. As I began playing with these new ideas, I took out the wall so I was no longer viewing the room as tunnel. I'd agree that the wall needs to exist for all the reasons you describe, but taking everything away helps me consider what we could do by building the kitchen from scratch rather than trying to work around exiting barriers. Everything is going anyhow except the wall oven (keeping this because it's almost brand new, and I prefer the height of the wall oven over a traditional oven).

jlc712, the front window is just low enough to hinder cabinets, just high enough that a table fits nicely. I've often thought that corner would be a good spot for a corner bench. OTOH, we do need to replace those windows eventually... I've gotten so many new ideas from this post already, I need to slow down and consider a bit before attempting another post.