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Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Posted by Dizzy149 (My Page) on
Thu, Jan 23, 14 at 18:56

In April we will embark on a 6 month journey of major renovations on our home. One of the most important ones is of course our kitchen.

We designed this about a year ago when we first knew we were going to renovate the kitchen, and now that I have a budget and timeframe, I want to put finishing details on it.

I included a link to our design below.

We are set on the door color/style for the cabinets.
We are open to color/style ideas for the island.
The flooring will be replaced with 3/4" x 5" Brazilian Koa (aka Tigerwood)
We wanted granite for practical reasons (heat resistance, durability, cleanliness, etc), as well as resale. We selected Uba Tuba because we wanted a darker color w/o going black, and Uba Tuba was offered us the best choice for the budget.
(When looking at the overall design), to the left is the dining room. We will be cutting a hole in that wall between them to create a large bar/passthrough next to the window.

We have a Sub Zero fridge that we will of course be keeping, and it will stay where it is currently located. We also have a newer stainless steel above-range microwave that we will keep.

The design includes a standard 30" range, but we have decided that we would like a double oven, and a gas rangetop.

I would like the Electrolux EW30EW65GS, but at $3k, it is a bit over my budget of $2750. I am hoping to find a good deal on one in the next few months, but I would appreciate options for a slightly cheaper alternative.

We know we want a rangetop, but are going back and forth on the size. I am in love with the 48" Dacor Discovery. I do quite a bit of cooking on the stove, and with the one I have now it is very crowded with I have 3-4 pans going. I love the idea of the 14" grates. The griddle is nice and I like that it can be put on top. The grill isn't a big deal for me, I'd rather use my gas grill outside any chance I can :)

Additionally, my wife would prefer a stainless steel hood like Wolf 45" Low Profile CTEWH45(I). We have had cabinets over the cooktop before and they just never get used.

So, here is where I need some help:
1) Is my overall design conducive for a 36/48" Rangetop? Suggestions for the rangetop?
2) Should I get rid of the over range cabinet, as well as the cabinet to the left to accommodate the hood?
3) Thoughts on placement of the double oven? My initial thought was next to the fridge, but then I wasn't sure where to put the microwave.
4) Thoughts on the granite/uba tuba selection?
5) Thoughts/Suggestions/Ideas for the island? It uses a 24" base cabinets, and 12" wall cabinets, and I'm just not sure what I'm going to put in the wall cabinets.
5) Any and all comments/suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Kitchen Design


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

The island obstructs two legs of the work triangle (boith fridge legs). The risk here is that you're gonna feel like the island is in your way every time you want something from the fridge.

FWIW, the applicable guideline from the 31 kitchen design rules is as follows:
-No work triangle leg may intersect an island/peninsula or other obstacle by more than 12".

Here is a link that might be useful: 31 kitchen design rules


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

I'm a fan of Uba Tuba granite even though it has gotten some dis because it is a budget choice that gets used a lot. It's tough and the gold flecks in it make it work very well with warm toned woods and whites. Your aesthetic seems to be OK, if your style is formal and traditional. If thats not you, you may want to rethink such a detailed doorstyle.

One issue may be your floor. Koa is a tropical hardwood tha tends to come to the US a bit damper than most are used to. It dries out and can be prone to checks , cracks shri king, and warpage. It requires an absolute committment to strict humidity controlinthe hhomeif you wantto minimize those issues. That means always using the AC in the summer and having a humidifier tied into your HVAC in winter.

The layout you show has a lot of issues with being dysfunctional. Can you label a diagram with what all of the doors lead to and what the major pathways will be? I might have some ideas, but need additional info about who the cooks are, and if this is on crawl space or slab foundation.

As it stands, this will be a difficult kitchen toactually work in. I would also post the layout to your other plans for the other spaces being altered. A second and third ser of eyes can often see things that those too familiar with the space miss.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Ok, I'll give you huge props for being the currently-rare kitchen that isn't open to the whole house, but I agree w/ Gaucho and LWO: the layout, as drawn, is really troublesome.

The main problem is the placement of the honkin' great island smack in the middle, which will require you to walk clear around it, over and over, during meal prep. Just getting something as simple as frozen peas to the stove will be a trek.

I know you are looking at starting soon but the layout, for me, is a "before" (in terms of functionality) not an "after".

You seem to have spent a lot of time thinking about how the kitchen will look, but not enough thinking about how it will cook, IMO.

Sorry to be such a downer. It's always an awkward and tricky thing when someone posts a drawing that clearly has a major functionality issue but equally clearly the people are well down the road towards installing it. However, I figure if they're open to improving the design before they spend significant money then they will appreciate the frankness and seeing where it can be improved. If not, then they are free to ignore the comments and carry on.

If you could post a measured drawing on graph paper with notes about what's adjacent. etc., perhaps some useful ideas for fixing the layout within the confines of what else you're planning could be offered here.

Just take a pic of the measured drawing. pop it on to PB and include it in a post. I think threads with the images inside them get more comments, than those that require one to click away.

L.

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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Thank you for your replies.

First off, yes we would like to order cabinets and things in late April, and as far as I'm concerned that gives me 2 months to play with the design.

The house was built in the early 30s by an extremely wealthy family. The people who built it actually lived it it until 8 years ago, and the house has sat empty until their son sold it to us a year ago. It is an old Victorian Style home, and while it was dated and needed some love, it has fantastic bones, and unlimited potential. We are working to restore the home to it's classic elegance while at the same time updating it. ie, I am a technophile, and have run cat6, and RG6 throughout the entire home, but I INSISTED on running it in walls. I ripped out a lot of old phone line they ran on the outside of the walls and it drove me crazy that they would do that! I included a link to my gallery of "Before" pics.

 photo HouseBefore-sm_zps61918413.jpg

"Your aesthetic seems to be OK, if your style is formal and traditional. If thats not you, you may want to rethink such a detailed doorstyle."
--- Yes, formal and traditional is exactly what we wanted :D

The house has a full basement (it is partially finished now, and we will finish it and put in a theater and office in the basement).

The "utility room" is under the kitchen, and the main breaker panel is next to the kitchen, and a sub panel is in the utility room.

I am the primary cook in the house, and my wife and I realized that we don't work well in the kitchen together, so there is rarely two of is cooking at the same time, or even in the cooking area.

Here is the layout of our main floor:
 photo MainFloor-sm_zpsb9a92165.jpg
It's not exactly to scale, but it's pretty darn close, and gives you a good idea of the layout of the main floor.

There is actually a door going from the kitchen to the "back hallway" where the pantry is, and another door leading into the kids play room. The play room was originally the garage, and they finished it up (poorly). Makes a good play room, but it's *COLD* in the winter. Carpet and insulation is on the to-do list of that room during the reno.

Here is a sketch of the kitchen (w/o cabinets):
 photo KitchenSketch-sm_zpsa2e0ce3c.jpg

We will essentially be taking the kitchen down to studs.

The kitchen used to be two rooms. They put in a Sub Zero fridge where the second room used to be. It might account for the odd layout of things in the room.

As for other work being done...
We are replacing all of the flooring on the main floor with the Brazilian Koa (if you look in my gallery you will see the hideous carpet we are replacing).

"One issue may be your floor. Koa is a tropical hardwood tha tends to come to the US a bit damper than most are used to. It dries out and can be prone to checks , cracks shri king, and warpage. It requires an absolute committment to strict humidity controlinthe hhomeif you wantto minimize those issues. That means always using the AC in the summer and having a humidifier tied into your HVAC in winter."
--- That's the first I have heard of that. We have radiators in the winter, and a swamp cooler for the summer. So during the summer it is certainly not dry in the house. Before we figured out how to equalize things it got pretty humid and a couple doors swelled up. It can get kind of dry in the winter though.
My wife is pretty set on the Koa. My choice was the Cumaru (another tropical wood though).

As I mentioned we will be putting a passthrough/bar between the kitchen and dining room. Something like this:
 photo Passthrough-sm_zps0bcabd0f.jpg
I'm not 100% on the arch as I have found some incredible victorian moulding ideas.

"Ok, I'll give you huge props for being the currently-rare kitchen that isn't open to the whole house, but I agree w/ Gaucho and LWO: the layout, as drawn, is really troublesome."
--- I want to open it to the dining room, but that's it. We have a large family in the area, and with our new house it has become the defacto place to have all family gatherings/holidays. So the passthrough will be very nice. It will also be a nice place for the kids to eat breakfast, do homework, etc :)

"It's always an awkward and tricky thing when someone posts a drawing that clearly has a major functionality issue but equally clearly the people are well down the road towards installing it. However, I figure if they're open to improving the design before they spend significant money then they will appreciate the frankness and seeing where it can be improved."
--- Absolutely! I truly appreciate the honesty and frankness, and would like to see what we can do to resolve the issues.

Since I'm not a huge fan of the 12" wall cabinets on the island, I thought about putting the two large base cabinets back to back, with a 14-16" shelf between them. My wife wanted some shelves for produce, and I thought those would be a good place to put some baskets. Doing so would retain the 36" width of the island, but it would shorten the island by approx 3' which should be enough to resolve the kitchen triangle issue.

What about placing the double oven next to the fridge? Does that make sense?

I think I answered all the questions above...
Any other comments/suggestions? I'm all eyes :D

We painted this summer, and here is a gallery of what it looks like now:
Paint Pics

Here is a gallery of some of the other work I've done:
Work Pics

Here is a link that might be useful: Pics of Our Home BEFORE


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

The home is a traditional Colonial and a tropical hardwood in it is sacrilege to it's traditionality. That's for some 90'S McMansion not an American classic home style.

That fridge location is driving the dysfunction. Is that whole buit in area not to be addressed? What size is that fridge? How old is it? I'm seeing it as an albatross of a legacy rather than an immovable object that has untouchable standing. That whole area needs to come out also and that fridge may need to move to fix this. Or else that island I'd the worlds biggest traffic cone to have to constantly roller skate around. It is IN your way, not an aid to function. That Has to be fixed.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

And steer clear of crap Chinese Cabinets. It's a disservice to this home to install something with such suspect quality. You can buy American made for not much more than Cliq, and be assured that you aren't going to gag from the VOC's.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Looks like a very nice traditional colonial home. It is not a Victorian though, but your choices still seem good for it. I would look at colonial moldings though vs. Victorian to stay true to the house.

Do you want an eat-in kitchen or is the dining going to be your only eating area?

What purpose will the peninsula serve in the dining area?


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

I'd consider a peninsula at the end of the sink counter if you don't want to move the fridge. Or if you'll have an island I think it should shrink both in length and width, and move towards the DR where you have 170" length. I would at least try to have an open path b/w the island and the sink.

Maybe something like this. You can have only one sink, but if you have another one on the island perhaps you and your wife can work in the kitchen at the same time :-))


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

The fridge is a 36" sub zero. It's about 10yrs old, but the house sat empty for 8 years.

We hadn't given much thought to moving it mostly because we thought that was a good place for it.

We either eat in the dining room, or on weekends we'll eat in front of the TV. I thought that the passthrough would serve as a quick eating area for the kids. I'd put some stools there. As far as the purpose it would have in the dining room... It would serve as a serving area for food, and/or extra seating in a pinch for large gatherings.

"And steer clear of crap Chinese Cabinets. It's a disservice to this home to install something with such suspect quality. You can buy American made for not much more than Cliq, and be assured that you aren't going to gag from the VOC's."
--- Can you recommend some places and brands to check out? Lowes and Sutherlands came in 30%+ more for the same, and a few features at Cliq were add-ons at both places which would increase the cost even more.

"The home is a traditional Colonial and a tropical hardwood in it is sacrilege to it's traditionality. That's for some 90'S McMansion not an American classic home style."
--- My wife really likes the look of the Koa. She likes the variation in color. Practical-wise, I wanted to get a very hard wood since we have two large dogs, and two very active children, one of which is on the crazy side some days. We had to remove the swinging door between the dining room and kitchen since she knocked her brother out with it... TWICE!
Had a guy out this morning looking at some things, and we discovered that we have hardwood under the entire stair going upstairs, AND the landing and hallway have hardwood under them. I assume there is also hardwood in the bedrooms too. I THINK it is Oak.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Ya gotta match the existing floors, right?


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

"One issue may be your floor. Koa is a tropical hardwood tha tends to come to the US a bit damper than most are used to. It dries out and can be prone to checks , cracks shri king, and warpage. It requires an absolute committment to strict humidity controlinthe hhomeif you wantto minimize those issues. That means always using the AC in the summer and having a humidifier tied into your HVAC in winter."
--- Dug into this and confirmed. Called the supplier here, and talked to them about it, and they said it tends to go into newer homes that do have HVAC systems with humidifiers, etc.

So, now for the hard part. Convincing my wife!

I think I need to confirm what is in the upstairs currently, and see if we can try to match it. Worried this is going to break the budget. :(

Update: Wow, she took it surprisingly well. We are going out this weekend to see if we can find some prefinished oak to match what we have. Floor is a dark honey color, and the handrails are a dark reddish color. Will try to get some decent pics later :)

This post was edited by Dizzy149 on Fri, Jan 24, 14 at 12:39


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

You mentioned you check Lowes for cabinets, what brand? We have shenandoah and we think they are an excellent value if cost is a concern.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

You could check Barker cabinets, several posts about people using them on here.

Peninsula makes sense for serving area. Seems like it is a bit far for kids to sit and eat at or do home work while somebody is in the kitchen though.

When you plan around the fridge I would make sure that you make it an opening so that if you have to replace it later with another model that you have space to do so and consider it might be deeper too.

Finding existing hardwoods would imo be a great find and just consider marks/dings in the wood floors character marks and memories. You might want to consider site finished floors as they should be able to match very well too. Otherwise make sure you look at flooring that can be refinished several times.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

> see if we can find some prefinished oak to match what we have...

Why prefinished? I'm a big fan of prefinished flooring when you don't need to blend in with something existing, but I think you'll get a much better result if you use infinished flooring for the new stuff and finish/refinish old and new together at the transitions so that it blends properly. You don't need to refinish all the old stuff, just a little at the transitions so that it blends. I've seen this done many times and the end result has always looked good to me. Granted, it's an art, but good floor guys make it look easy. I'd be very surprised if you could blend as well with prefinished material.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Right now 99% of the existing wood flooring is covered in carpet, so it needs to be refinished anyway. I guess it makes sense to get unfinished so it can all be stained the same color. I'm just worried about cost at this point.

I just emailed my flooring guy to see how much to install & finish the floor would be. I know he charged approx $5sqft to RE-finish.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

You really don't have room for an island. Especially by the time you account for countertop overhangs. But, you don't really need one either. Put the sink under the passthrough, and the range between the two windows. You get to look out the window and socialize with the folks in the DR while you are prepping. Put the double ovens at the end of the run by the door and add a prep sink for a fabulous baking area that can also look out the window while working. Putting in an additional sink is a piece of cake with a basement. Moving the fridge closer in to the prep area is what makes this functional. The actual working parts of the kitchen are clustered closer together with no obstacle, and the rest of the kitchen further away from the major action still has a purpose, and access to water.

I know the center of the room seems naked, but this WORKS, with minimal walking around, and nothing in your way. Use the vacant center for an inlaid border in a contrasting wood for a super special feature. Also, with this plan, you don't have a lot of upper cabinets, so it keeps the pricing to a minimum. I used my Indiana made Aristokraft catalog to do the layout. It's got the soft close all wood drawers and is in the Durham Purestyle Antique with Toasted Glaze. All for $8900 plus tax and delivery.





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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Upgrading to all ply is only another $650 with that line. I don't know where you are located, but there is a dealer locater on their website that will find you someone local.

The PureStyle finish will be far more durable for you since you won't be dealing with a humidifier and moisture control in your home.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Wow, that is awesome, thank you so much for your time!

I pulled up retailers in our area, and one of them is owned by someone who gave me their card last week and I've been meaning to call... Kismet?

Going to see how the wife likes the changes. I already had an electrician and plumber out who basically told me we could put whatever we wanted wherever. Since we have the utils under the kitchen, and we are ripping up the floor it's very easy to run anything we need moved.

I know she liked the idea of an island, and I had wanted a nice pot hanger to go above it to put all our pots on :D


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

I like the U shape! There definitely isn't room for an island. You could always do a Julia Child pot hanger wall on that blank wall by the exit.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Love the layout from live_wire_oak. So functional and useful and would be a great kitchen to work in. Plus it allows more than one person to be in there doing something. Somebody can be cooking while somebody else is baking and there is room for kids helping too without feeling cramped.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Ok, comments from the wife...

She hates the sink by the passthrough. She really wants the passthrough to serve as seating for kids in the morning, and for family gatherings. So I guess calling it a eat in bar area would be more appropriate.

Doesn't mind the cooktop between the windows, but wants to know why it can't go next to the double ovens. FYI, we decided on a 36" Cooktop vs 48"

She liked the design overall, and wondered if we could just put the full sink where the prep sink is, then remove the cabinets under the eat in bar.

She wondered about a 24" deep island (vs the 36" in the design), approx 66" long. Set it so the edge lines up where the dishwasher is now. Should still provide enough walkway, and leave the work triangle free.

Lastly, she wondered about putting the sink in the island. Can you tell she really wanted an island?

PLEASE feel free to give me blunk/frank/honest answers (as long as they are constructive) :D

Again, live_wire_oak, thank you so much for that. At the very least, it allowed me to get a feel for where the wife's head is at and what she will accept.

Seems like the bar area is a given for her, everything else is negotiable as long as she understands why.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

OK, I want you to take a slim table, something like a sofa table, and place it somewhere in your house facing a wall, with your back facing where everyone else is. Put a couple of chairs there and sit there for 15 minutes. It's beyond awkward and unsocial, isn't it? THAT is the "breakfast bar" area. It's unusable as designed facing ito the DR. :-)

Turn the table around and face everyone, where you can talk with those occupied doing tasks, and it's a world of difference. And that's why the bar only works for seating on the DR side facing IN to the kitchen. Now, if you want an eat in kitchen, that's possible, but you need to give up the cabinetry at the other end.

As far as the island goes, II really think you need to mock up the giant obstacle between the sink and fridge and the range and fridge. Every time you need something, it will be in your path and you will have to walk around it. That gets really old really fast.

:-) However if you MUST be one of the cool kids that all have an island, then move te fridge all the way to the left, and be sure that you have at least a 48" aisle between the sink and a 24" deep island. And then put the prep sink there. Otherwise, it won't get much use because THE prep spot in a kitchen is between the sink and range. And you've got that window there to be the additional attraction to that being the primary prep spot.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Laugh... I just got done taping a big 28 " x 70" square on the kitchen floor where she wants the island. I told her that if she can avoid the island for a full week, then we'll think about keeping it in the design.

"OK, I want you to take a slim table, something like a sofa table, and place it somewhere in your house facing a wall, with your back facing where everyone else is. Put a couple of chairs there and sit there for 15 minutes. It's beyond awkward and unsocial, isn't it? THAT is the "breakfast bar" area. It's unusable as designed facing ito the DR."
--- While I like the visualization, however, I think there will be people in the DR to interact with far more often than in the kitchen. Particularly during family events. Maybe it's not clear that I want the stools on the side of the kitchen, not in the DR.

This post was edited by Dizzy149 on Fri, Jan 24, 14 at 22:54


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Ok, the wife couldn't make it two days walking around the island. It's gone.

I also remeasured everything in the kitchen and found that several measurements were off. Here is an updated sketch w/o cabinets. I noted where the passthrough would be, it is currently marked with a 3" overhang on each side.

 photo KitchenEmpty-sm_zpsc19855ef.jpg

The wife and I were playing around with some ideas, and here are a few she came up with...

 photo KitchenIsland-sm_zps3e9eec29.jpg

 photo KitchenIslandRange-sm_zps19d3590f.jpg

 photo KitchenSideIsland-sm_zps8c46acfe.jpg

 photo KitchenNook1-sm_zps54b5a8fa.jpg

 photo KitchenNook2-sm_zps64adc98f.jpg

Appliances:
Sub Zero 650/S Fridge (36x27x84)
Electrolux EW30EW65GS Double Oven
Samsung 80F800 Dishwasher
Edgestar TWR282S-KF Wine Cooler (18" wide)
36" Gas Rangetop (Still Deciding between Capital, Wolf and Dacor)

This evening she said that she thinks she would like a "simple passthrough" into the dining room. So, just a few inch overhang on each side so we can put dishes. She also liked the idea of a breakfast nook for the kids. Maybe a bench seat under the window, or a corner bench.

Maybe something like this to get some some more color in the kitchen?
 photo Nook_zps0a869470.jpg

So, she's opened up on the idea of things, and losing the island. So that's good. Notice she still hasn't moved the appliances much. She is very stuck in her ways, and does not like change. So, if cooktop next to the double oven is why, please tell me why.

*I* liked the cooktop between the windows, but not sure that's feasible with the nook idea.
FYI, there isn't much to look at outside the windows. The neighbor's driveway is just a few feet past the windows, so we just stare at the side of their house. We get great light though.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

With kids in the house, I wouldn't consider a cooktop on an island, especially a narrow one.

I believe you must have minimum 12 and 15" counter on the sides of a cooktop, so don't think you can have the oven right next to the cooktop. Also, with active kids, I wouldn't want the oven there. Just imagine them running from the play room into the kitchen, when the oven door is open. I think you have a better place for the oven in your first drawing although you lack nearby landing for the fridge. I would consider moving the oven to that wall, have the tall appliances in the middle as in live_wire_oak's layout. It would still be in a walkway, but at least you'll be able to see when someone is coming. Or if you keep it on the left wall have another cab b/w the oven and the doorway.

*I* liked the cooktop between the windows, but not sure that's feasible with the nook idea.

If the sink is to stay under the left window, I guess it's only possible if you move the DW to the left, after the corner.

Loved the color of the breakfast table btw. My lower cabs are very similar to that color))


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Splain to me why you need so many places for eating? Especially with the passthrough giving you the greater connection to the DR? Do you want to eat all of your meals in the kitchen or DR? And if you do want to make the kitchen the main eating area, are you willing to give up the separate ovens and cooktop and move to a range to make that happen. And give up the pass through?

You don't need a table next to a table with a hole in the wall to be able to see them both from the food production space. You either want to deformalize the DR by creating that opening between it and the kitchen, or you want to have a more formal and a less formal eating area that are closed off from each other.

You've got a lot of cross purpose things happenin and you need to clearly state what your priorities are for the space.. It can't be all things to all people, so what are your top three needs for the room?

Also a double oven next to a cooking surface like that is a fire hazard.


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

I was going to post this....but it sat in "preview" mode since Friday! (Busy weekend!) I'm posting it anyway so it's helpful to others who may read this...

+++++

Don't just tape it - put a table or boxes there. There's a big difference in the feel of an open floor with tape on it and an actual obstruction in the kitchen (and you can't cheat). I know - we tried it both ways when we did our kitchen.

BTW...I really wanted an island as well - but I'm glad the folks here kept at me showing me how my kitchen really could not handle an island. I now have a "U" with a cabinet run opposite the base of the "U" and I absolutely love it! I shudder to think what I would have ended up with if I had stubbornly refused to accept reality.

Keep talking to your wife!

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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

hello Op, just read through your thread and thought if there were any lingering doubts about the island issue, maybe you guys want to read the thread just below yours.

Be confident that you'll figure out how your kitchen layout needs to be to fit the space. It seems you have a really open mind to suggestions and new ideas which is the most important thing.

Here is a link that might be useful: island layout thread


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RE: Need Some Help With Kitchen Design Details

Ok, the wife and I sat down and discussed the kitchen design. I'm going to start a new thread for it.

FYI, Island is out :)


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