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Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Posted by sandn (My Page) on
Fri, Jan 28, 11 at 18:26

This is a long post (pictures, though), so I hope you'll bear with me. We have only a couple of weeks to choose the marble slab and edge profile for our two level island counter (perimeter counters will be stainless).

We have a slab tagged:

It's called Calacatta carrara--a perfect name for anyone vacillating between the two stones. This slab is light with quite a bit of creamy veining (not very visible in the photo) along with the gray--a good match for our other finishes, which all tend to creamy off white plus stainless.

Here's the dilemma: all of the marble slabs (with the exception of a couple of carrara marbles) in the area are 2cm (3/4"), which is a little thin to use without a built up edge. We don't want to see the seam of a built-up square edge (especially evident on light coloured marbles), and the thicker mitred edge is a bit too modern looking for our kitchen. We were hoping to find a thicker slab so we could stick with a simple edge, but it's just not available here and now. We are in a Victorian though, so a bit of ornament would not be out of place. This is the stepped out ogee edge of our bathroom vanity, which gives purpose to the built-up edge:

However, our island design means the upper, more visible countertop is an L shape (see images below)

...
which means the edge really eats in to the counter space, especially on the short side of the L.
My big question to all you wonderful forum members, is what do you think of the same built up ogee turned upside down, like this?

It is a more neo-classical, rather than Victorian look, and possibly a little more formal, but it would give a little extra width to the counter.
If one of you has an edge like this, on a granite or marble counter, I would love to see a photo.
I have been searching for examples, without luck, except for the kitchen of the Kips Bay show house which seems to feature a bullnose over a set back ogee. Links to the show house below. To my eye, the bullnose makes the counter look a little delicate.

Our cabinet maker has also offered to put a piece of built-up wood moulding under a single thickness piece of marble to give it more visual heft without quite as much expense as the built-up edge.

What are your opinions or experiences? I'd love to hear your ideas. We do have some precedent for the ogee edge in our house. Here's a close up of our original window trim (refinished and stained in this photo):

We don't live in a rustic French country house, or a modern condo. We're in an old Victorian city house, with plenty of grace notes. Perhaps we should just embrace it. Our style is fairly eclectic. We are trying to incorporate contemporary luxuries while paying some hommage to the history of our house. If you've read this far, thank you. We'd love to hear your advice.

Here is a link that might be useful: kips bay 2010 show house kitchen


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Hi there. The marble you're looking at is called Calacatta Gold. Carrera is a bit of a different color marble. The one your looking at has slight gold veining, just fyi!

The reason I love this forum is because I am absolutely crazy about kitchen design and I love helping people with their dilemmas and unanswered questions. I think I can solve your problem, which makes me happy!

I do not try to sell anything, just give great advice...saying that...I feel that the best way to help you is to let you know that the company I get all of my stone from for all my projects has 22 slabs in stock of the Calacatta Gold Polished in 3cm (1 1/4"), right outside of Manhattan.

Please contact me through my kitchen design advice website below if you'd like to see the slabs...as I do not wish to give there name here because I think that marketing a company is against the guidelines. I look forward to hearing from you!

Justin

Here is a link that might be useful: Calacatta Gold 3cm Polished


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

I'd copy the window sill edge and continue to pay homage to the bones of your house.
Your slab is lovely, btw.... Can't wait to see the finished product ;)


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

I like the idea of inverting the edge -- it does mimic the window sill and I think the bit of ornamentation is nice, but the detail won't be up top where the thinner parts are more subject to chipping, you won't have the groove for catching drips and possibly being a staining/cleaning issue. I think I would taper it back a bit less than the bathroom counter, but other than that -- go for it!


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and

I meant to say that's a very pretty slab. I approve of that too. ;-)

I scrolled back to see if hte hand drawn egde was supposed to be less tapered (not sure) and saw the cabinet maker's wood options (somehow scrolled past that before). I think that would be a nice way to dress it up too, but you will have the contrast between the wood and the marble and it won't give you the visual weight of the thicker edge you seem to want.

Either way will be very nice -- but if you are looking for more heft in the marble, pretty woodwork won't be the same.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Thank you so much, Dianalo. That may be the advice I wanted to hear. I hope I wasn't too leading, or just plain obvious, in the way I framed the question.

Justin, thank you, but we are really looking for marble edge advice, given the choice of marble in our area, which is far from Manhattan. Our marble slab is indeed called Calacatta carrara (even if neither you nor the warehouse spell it the same way as the place name in Italy):

Thank you, Lascatx. That's true about the ogee not catching the debris or spills if we go with the inverted edge. The smaller offset is a good idea too--otherwise the detail might never be seen. Great input.
More opinions absolutely welcome...


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

It's great out of the box thinking, however, since your counters are considerably below the eye level, I doubt if the ornamentation on the lower side would be noticed.

My 2c is that it would be the same effect as straight edge. You might as well go with a straight edge.

Of course, "you" will continue to see and perhaps compare the two effects. If you think you will be wondering always, and would love the reversed effect, then sure go for it!

Best of luck making the decision!


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Pretty, pretty marble! I am really excited about your plans. Wow.

homey_bird wrote what I was thinking, that it seems like a lot of cost for something which will mostly be hidden (it seems that way to me, at least).

I love an ornate edge, think it's fabulous but also think they're a pain to clean ... which is why I don't have any. At first I'd planned on frou-frou city but then I was visiting somebody and wiping down the counter and it kinda drove me nutso, so I have just plain eased edges. We have both Calacatta Xtra and butcher block.

Anyway, all that being said, your drawing with the bullnose top ("full round edge") calls to me the most, I find it the most aesthetically pleasing and think it makes sense for your period home. I also like you having the most workspace, not ceding any of it to pure ornamentation.

Can't wait to see more of your kitchen-in-progress!


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Thank you homey bird and rm kitchen! I appreciate this input so much. I've been trying to envision the inverted edge by looking at our bathroom vanity marble from below, and it's true that from above (in the inverted scenario), you don't see much beyond the edge.
Except, and of course you have no way to know this, that the kitchen table is beside the island and looks directly at the glass fronted cabinet side (elevation 3) of the island, so the edge may get some occasional contemplation during mealtimes.
It is an expensive edge, though, and I'm hoping the fabricator won't ask even more if I invert the stepped back ogee (bumping me from x2 upgrade to custom). Scope creep is no joke in this kitchen renovation.
I'm glad you like the marble. You, too, lascatx. I'll try to post a floorplan--tomorrow. Consulting the gardenweb oracle is amazingly addictive and rewarding.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Sandn, I think you will notice that edge more than you might be thinking. True, you won't notice that detail if you are standing at the island slicing and dicing or kneading dough -- but you won't notice your cabinet doors then either and no one is advocating plain door fronts on all bases.

I "see" my kitchen much more from the family room and breakfast room, from the other side of the room, walking through or walking past than I do standing at the counter looking directly down at the top. Taking a step or more back is where you have the visual impact of all the details, including the depth of your countertop.

I just walked through my living room and noticed an inverted edge on a server (and that is lower than a countertop). You definitely see the depth of that entire edge and that piece is entirely stained wood. I also have a chair rail in my family room that is made up of 2 stacked trims applied to a routed board. The 2 trims have a receding profile and it is below counter height too. The look wouldn't be at all the same if it were just the top piece of trim. The contrast of the marble against a stained or painted finish would make the full thickness stand out that much more than these two same color examples.

I'm not saying you have to do the inverted edge -- just that i think it will have more of an impact than some would think. You'll have to decide if it's enough to be worth it. An island is tougher because that edge goes on 4 surfaces instead of just one or two.

This is one of those things that will be hard to mock up, but it might be worth a trip to Home Depot -- or see if your cabinet guy can give you a couple of pieces or trim moulding he may have as scrap. See if you can get two simple pieces -- one plainer and one with more detail, that you can put together (for this purpose even package tape or duct tape on the back will suffice), paint it white (one very cheap can of spray paint if nothing else) and try it inverted on the edge of an existing cabinet, table or other surface. See what you think.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Heavenly marble!

I love the soft graining and swirls in your choice. The inverted
edge sounds fantasticly creative and I think it could work.
I will say that it might not be cheap. I sometimes feel like
fabricators/installers will push that price up for anytime
they use their tools. But don't let this deter you
sometimes we have to spend a little more than planned
to get the details we want. I wish I had a great image
of a similar design but this is "out of the box" an will be
one of the first edges done like this.

One image I do have which might help shows a way some
fabricators use to create the illusion of a thick stone
edge. This may not help you at all but perhaps a lurker
on GW will see this image and think about their own space
and find a solution to their counter edge.
~boxer

A build up of cement or even plywood can make the
counter look thicker but really the details are on top.

From the outside the edge looks thicker


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Well I'm back because I was thinking some more about your marble and it seems like I am always going to be echoing other's sentiments! And this time it's lascatx, whose blue wall is one of my all-time favorite features.

But anyway, what she wrote is true, that it's the subtle details which can really "make" a kitchen. It's also those subtle details which, if omitted, can leave us after the project wishing we had them, noticing that while subtle they can have an enormous impact.

We don't have inset doors / drawers in our kitchen because I felt I could afford neither the cost nor the space loss, so I had a lovely bead detail put on our doors / drawers which is subtle but makes a h-u-g-e impact. It makes a difference and without it I'd miss it.

I also want to say I (along with every other person here) totally understand the cost creep. Our marble ended up being >100% more than budgeted, and I'd already budgeted a lot! So it's nearly three years apres remodel and while I still love our marble (it took us I think nine months to find the right slabs) I still wonder "was it worth that huge cost?"

And I don't know. Some days are "you betcha!" while others are "damn, I wish I had the money instead." Truthfully, if we hadn't've gotten the marble I am pretty darn sure it's one thing I would regret every single day. And *that's* a huge price to pay.

Still love your slabs!


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Yeah -- I am completely avoiding the cost issue. I went with eased edges because it wasn't worth it to me. DH and I had more than enough of edges, grooves and grout to clean in kitchens and wanted clean simplicity. My kitchen is a working room and so I'm still happy with my choice but I might have done something like the inverted edge if I'd thought of it or seen it years ago.

As far as the upcharge, I really don't think it should be more than the standard ogee -- it's the same work involved. Talk to your fabricator, talk to another one if need be. Negotiate. Talk him into trying it because he should, in the interest of design, stoneworking, marketing and having something that folks will come to him for -- and it should be less money for you because it is experimental -- R&D in stone work, so to speak. But if it does work, he'll have the photos in his portfolio and you can tell everyone where to get the latest and greatest design detail. Partnership in trendsetting! ;-)

But first -- figure out is you really love the idea.


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btw...

BTW, I trust your judgment. I saw the half bath you did on the bathrooms forum. I love it. You'll make the right decision here too. :-)


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Your comments are all so well considered and relevant. I am thrilled with your advice. I feel as though I'm having a conversation with truly interested parties. N and I are sitting at the kitchen table, drinking our second lattes of the morning (now afternoon), contemplating the counter, and considering your opinions.

Boxer, your store of reference photos and your ability to locate just the right thing is amazing. If you don't have a picture of this edge, it must be unusual. You are emboldening us to try it. We're gald you like the marble. We know you have an experienced eye.

RMkitchen and Lascatx,
I appreciate your encouragement. We have spent years on this kitchen renovation, and to scrimp at this point, especially on something that will have the most visual impact, would be foolhardy. We eat three meals a day in this room (I work from home and N is a 5 minute commute). We are both equally invested in this project. So we must agree, but we are determined to get the island counter that will suit us best.

The island is visible right from the front door, so, RMkitchen, your point about noticing the edge from other vantage points is spot on. Plus, the bar height upper counter edge is quite visible, even from a standing vantage point.
We've noticed that every time we've splurged on something we love, we eventually forget the cost, but continue to appreciate the thing, or the aesthetic pleasure, or comfort, it offers.

I'm putting original (circa 1940's when this old Victorian became a duplex) and new kitchen floor plans, as well as a snapshot of N's Sketchup version of the future kitchen from a vantage point we will never actually have, below:

The layout as it was when we moved in (above)

The new room as it is now (above)


(from somewhere near the ceiling in the northeast corner)
I also decided to include some progress shots from this summer. Currently we have a fully functioning knock-down Ikea kitchen set up, and our new range and hood, and, to tell the truth, from the point of functionality and layout, we are already very happy. We quite enjoy the unfitted feel of things. We hope we won't miss it too much when all the new cabinetry comes to replace it.

looking east

looking west

looking northeast

We will be talking to the fabricator on Monday.

Thank you. I would love to see your kitchens. If you care to post links to your kitchen albums in follow-up messages, we'd be right over to take a look.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

The inverted edge is classy and practical and suitable for your room. Much better idea than the pyramidal style. Why hesitate if you can afford it and the workers know how to do it?

Whenever I see the pyramidal style I wonder why the owner made that choice for an island. Always seems to signal that this is an impractical object, like a Victorian front hall table. Merely for show because it minimizes usable space and requires conscientious dusting and washing.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

I don't have finished photos because by the time I finished dealing with contractors and problems, I dropped my camera and lost the focus on it, then got busy and have never gotten finished, clean kitchen photos. There's always a project in the way or a houseful of people about to arrive.

I see why the new half bath now, and I think I would love your house and what you are doing to give her new life with caring details. I envy your big windows and doors. Seeing what you've done int he half bath, I know it will be gorgeous.

Seeing the island in 3D and realizing that is a raised edge, I really think the stacked detail on the counter would be prominent enough to justify whatever you want to do. It is going to be one of the first things you see when you enter the kitchen. You have high ceilings and the room has scale enough to carry a little more oomph in the counter edge. I also think I would like the way it would tie in with the details in the panels and woodwork on the island (balancing the toe trim) while juxtaposing with the simple cabinets on the perimeter. Don't get carried away with too much detail, but like I said above -- think of it as an edge to balance or mirror the top of the toe trim.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

I love the window trim and your proposed counter edge looks very nice but I think you may be disappointed with the island trimmed in this fashion. Depending on how far the detail is set back the detail will not be as visible and the marble may just look like it has a 3/4" eased edge. A fabricator told me that any edge that recedes at the bottom makes the counter look thinner. I like a heftier look for a regular width counter. Since the short side of the L is narrower perhaps perhaps the illusion of less height is a better scale. Is it that big a deal to lose 2" from your usable counter length and have the ogee on the top? I think I would check out a mock up before you decide.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Late-night check-in...and, you are fantastic!
Florantha,
Yes, I agree. Why use up the valuable counter space or create unstable edges where I expect people will be placing wine glasses, etc?
Lascatx,
thank you. You might like parts of our house, but others are definitely not suitable for all audiences. We are in this for the long haul. We are hoping that once kitchen and bathrooms are finished, the rest will be a breeze. And, yes, we will watch out for over doing it. We've been so happy during the process, we hope things won't look too "done" in the end. We still haven't taken the 'official' pictures of our master bathroom yet, for many of the same reasons.
Oh, Sandca,
that is our dilemma exactly. We are trying to mock-up the edge with every means available (i.e. stacking up wood trim pieces on our current island, and drawing it up in Sketchup and autocad). The edge, inverted or otherwise, will be highly visible from the kitchen dining table, and when walking into the room, so this might make our scenario okay. Did you get a chance to look at the Kips Bay showhouse kitchen in the link at the beginning? The edges of its kitchen counter definitely look a little light, in part because of the bullnose edge on top, but I hope our bar height counter might counter (goofy pun, I know, but it's late) the look somewhat.

Thank you all for your feedback!


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

sandn, I love that the 3-d kitchen plan includes your cat. It made me laugh. That will be a seriously good cat if it just stays on the chair.

I, too, like your neo-classical inverted ogee plan - in fact, I think that rather than the conventional ogee should be the new norm as it gets over the reduction in worktop, detritus collection opportunities, cleaning nuisances etc. of ogee ;-) .

That said, if what is giving you pause is the ornamentation of it - and to me, ogees in any orientation are too ornamental - you might want to consider an inverted bevel edge. Inverted in that the top is widest and bevels down under the counter - in just the way your inverted ogee has the receding part under the top. It's a cleaner edge, doesn't create a lot of visual heft + you won't be able to see the join line to be discomfited by it. Personally, Victorian or not, your space is looking lighter and tighter than a conventional Victorian (good thing!) and I think that the heft but lightness of a sleeker finish is in keeping.

Love your lights btw. Really really love them!


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Dear Sandn, I love your marble and all your kitchen plans so far. You've gotten so much good advice on the edge treatment.

Would you mind sharing the name of your kitchen design software program? I love the cat and bottle of wine! I also loved reading your blog.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Amazing. This advice is invaluable. In fact, most of your sentiments echo my own internal debate so closely that I feel as though I'm having a conversation with competing aspects of myself. Don't worry, though, I'm sure you're all very real individuals.

Mindstorm, our real cat is not agile enough to jump on bar stools anymore, but in his youth he would bound to the highest point in a room and lounge--often stretched along the top edge of an open door--for hours like a jungle cat.
The ornate versus the unadorned debate is one that rages here. You know, our other house, our future dream house, is a sleek and simple, concrete-slab floored, wood and glass and stone elemental affair with windows oriented for maximum solar gain, built on green principles as much as possible and anchored into a granite rock face backed by a spruce forest with commanding views of the magnificent and moody Atlantic ocean. That's where we park all of our fantasies of simplified life. Until then, we are still guilty of historicist leanings and treading the fine line between enough ornamentation to hold our interest, but not too much to be cloying. Maximalist vs minimalist.
The inverted bevel is under consideration.
Which lights do you like, by the way: the glass pendants, or the recessed halogens with adjustable hoods?
Francoise47, thank you. The elevations of the island are in AutoCad and were done by our cabinet maker, but the mock-up of the kitchen is ours, N's really--he's the one who's mastered it, and it's SketchUp, now Google SketchUp. We are just using the free version and it has been an indispensable visualization tool. As we renovate our rooms it's been remarkable to see them come to look so much like our SketchUp versions. It's as though we're already familiar with them. It takes an little investment of time to figure it out, but once you've got it, it's an amazing tool, and great for specs for tradespeople or ordering anything custom--a great tool for visual communication.

Thanks for visiting our blog!


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

I finally found a photo of the inverted edge! This one seems more complex than the one we're considering, but it's good to see it. I believe the designer is Mick de Guilio.

Here is a link that might be useful: marble topped island with inverted built-up edge


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Which lights do you like, by the way: the glass pendants, or the recessed halogens with adjustable hoods?

The only lights I see are the glass pendants in the figure above the text "looking northeast".

Your dream house sounds dreamy. Please build a room for me in it coz I share your fantasy and, since you're building - even if just castles in the air - may as well do it once rather than twice ;-)


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Mindstorm and I are on the same page. I didn't post earlier today because all that came to mind after I saw views of the "magnificent and moody Atlantic ocean" was you'd better stop talking before I come move in! LOL

You had me at old Victorian. ;-) Seriously, I love old houses and seeing them nicely updated. I like the fact that you are taking the best of what today offers, staying true to an older feel, but not taking the older too seriously.

That photo of an inverted edge shows you do see a heftier profile than on the perimeter counters, but the very bottom does tend to fade away. I think that proves the point of either doing a less recessed/simpler variation on an ogee or a bevel -- and you can control the depth and angle of a bevel more than the curve of the ogee.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

I see a lot of discussion of the visuals, and I'd like to suggest you consider the tactile dimension as well. Don't you just adore the feel of the more ornate edges? Whether or not you see your counter's edge, I'm sure you will love to run your fingers along the wonderful curves. The 'grace notes' you mention make a kitchen lovely, and those lovely details are not *only* in the visual dimension. Aesthetics are tactile as well. Which way do your hands want to caress the curve?


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Sandn,
I'm a more-is-more girl, so when you move to your dream house, please send me your marble slabs, the ones already tagged, preferably with the full, round, caressable edge, that will be a bit less susceptible to chips because of the curves and will still refer to the motifs already present in the woodwork. Many thanks, in advance.

;)


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

I love this forum!
The dream house will definitely have a full wing for guests, Mindstorm, but maybe we'll hang on to the Victorian lady, too, for times when we tire of the elements and need a dose of civility.

Lascatx, welcome back. You seem to get what we're trying to do here. Victorians loved eclecticism and excess, so we probably have a little more leeway in this house, than in, say, a Georgian.

Still Lynnski, you're so right! Tactile pleasures are often overlooked. Just this morning I was running my hand over the smooth honed marble of the bathroom vanity, while contemplating what to do with the kitchen island. An ogee curve IS lovely to touch. Everyone does it, I've noticed.

Kitchen detective, I'm mostly with you, most of the time, but if I ever go over to the minimalist side to stay, the marble ogee and all is yours.

I'm pretty sure the dream house exists precisely because it is alter ego to our current abode. We understand that spare aesthetic, and are often seduced by it--on vacation, or in other people's homes--but N and I always knew, I think from childhood and long before we met, that we were old house people (with all the complications that entails).


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Sandn,

Did you have a mock-up or actual finished photo of your final edge design choice?

We are in the process of a kitchen island design (actually design while under construction) and I thought your original design was the best...understated and functional. The Mick de Guilio edge seemed more like a 2cm-thick slab above a decorative marble molding strip. No pretense of the desired look of a single, thick slab.

Did you give any thought to the surface and did you choose honed or polished?

R.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

First of all, your slabs: YUM! They are delicious and beautiful. Your space and design look fantastic. I am not an expert on things Victorian, but your plan for the inverted edge sounds perfect. One other idea: what about the inverted ogee on the raised portion of the island and a standard ogee on the lower portion? This would give you the extra counter space on the upper L portion (that you were concerned about) where you would be more able to see the underside and would give you the standard more visible ogee on the lower portion. I look forward to seeing your beautiful kitchen progress.


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RE: Marble edge dilemma: advice would be very nice

Hello Woodnotrust and Pricklypearcactus,
Last week, in a final fit of doubt, I called around to all the stone warehouses I had visited to see if anyone had received any new 3cm slabs, which might save us the whole debate of a built-up edge. One stone supplier was kind enough to send photos of 3cm calacatta slabs sitting in a Montreal warehouse. But in the end, we decided we still preferred the marble we'd tagged and so I made the down payment on the slab in anticipation of our shceduled cabinet installation this week. But now our cabinetmaker needs a little more time, and that, coupled with a business trip on our end means everything is postponed until early March. Now that we have ample to time to second guess our decision, we especially appreciate your support of our choice. At this point we have decided to use the eased square-edge with set back ogee underneath. The marble will be honed by our fabricator.
Pricklypearcactus, we did consider your idea of reversing the profile for the lower part of the counter, but decided that cleaning the square edge will be easier, and the extra counterspace still desirable, so we are going to keep the two edges the same.
I don't know if you saw our other thread about whether stainless or soapstone would be the better surface for our perimeter counters, but on the weekend we visited two soapstone importers and were won over. It will be a higher contrast scheme than we'd been planning, but we are finding ourselves quite excited about the prospect. We may even decide to paint the island cabinetry quite dark. I have my eye on Farrow & Ball's off black, but that will be a debate for March. N especially seemed to have a very visceral affinity to the soapstone. Its tactile qualities are not to be ignored. Stainless can look good, and is certainly functional, but it doesn't really invite touch. The soapstone will have an eased square edge to differentiate it completely from the island. Three window sills, also in soapstone (we debated using marble, but decided it might look too contrived), will rest on the perimeter counter and if they don't encroach too much onto the counter, we may have an ogee edge put on the sills--as an echo of our original wood sills. The soapstone we've chosen has astonishing caramel coloured veining which looks great with the limed wood trim and picks up some of the warmer tones in the marble. I'll post a thread when we have more progress to report.


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