I like what you're planning to improve not only the kitchen but the flow of your home. Although an island range isn't always my favorite, I find it vastly better than the open-sided range you have now! Will you do a downdraft or island hood to vent the range?

I'm not crazy about the desk area in the kitchen, because I think it will tend to collect stuff and get messy, and kitchen and desk messes will combine...Unless you're much more disciplined than I am, which is entirely possible. I see the challenge, though because of the window height... It's even a little low for a baking area, but that could be worth considering, since it's nice to knead and roll out things at a lower level, depending on the heights of the cooks, of course.

That spot would be a great location for a prep sink if having 2 sinks interests you for 2 workers, or more when the kids help. Sombreuil_mongrel has a prep sink in an open type of cabinet in front of a lower window...See the link below.

When the dw is open you might have a bit of trouble accessing the cabinets where I assume the dishes will be stored...But not sure how that can be improved, as I sure wouldn't want the dw on the other side of the sink and in conflict with the range area. How wide is your sink cabinet? If that could be smaller, a few inches might help on the left side of the dishwasher.

3'1" isn't the greatest clearance in front of the fridge, but if you will have a side-by-side, as shown, or a French door fridge, it's not as much of a problem.

Best wishes! Looks like you'll have a much improved layout and a great space for your family to cook in.

what's the measurement from the ext wall to the DR wall (kitchen side of it)?

if you can afford it, i think you should go for shortening that window. you lose a lot of usable space the way it is.

as it is, i'd put the fridge on the kit 'wing' closer to the FR if it'll fit and put the stove on the wing you have the fridge on. i'd put the dw to the right of the sink.

i wouldn't put the stove/cook top on the island. it's dangerous. too easy for a little one to get to it, bump a handle, be splashed with grease. your cooking area would be more protected on the wing. and the fridge would then be closer to the FR and DR.

if you change the window then you can run cabs all the way down and turn on that 'wing'. then i'd probably try to move the sink to the left end of it's window with the dw on the right of it and put the stove to the left of the 'shortened' window. the stove could still go on the front 'wing' too. just depends on the actual dimensions of the room.

i like the arch between DR/FR. Do you foresee any problems with the LR/DR/FR/KIT all being open to each other? no real separate space if one wants to get away from the others.

you're taking down the now kit desk area wall also?

what will be in the top right area - marked 'current'?

Since the 30" range is up against the corner cabinet in the current plan, I don't think putting the fridge on the FR end could fit reasonably. With what appears to be 2 ft of counter buffer around a cooktop, I don't know how a child could bump anything on the stove any easier than any other stove? If there will be a downdraft vent, that could serve as a splash barrier, too. It's better than having it next to a doorway as it is currently, a situation in which it would be easy for someone to walk by and bump a pan handle. I'm so glad you'll be changing that!

What is on the exterior of your house? Would it be a terrible amount of work or expense, or negatively alter the front facade to change that window?

Thanks for the quick responses.

Rhome - we're definately not set on a desk there, it was just a thought. Right now in our kitchen the computer/monitor/printer take up the desk area, and our peninsula is the dumping area for mail, papers, etc. If we move the computer out onto a desk in the living room that would take some of the mess with it, but I agree with you, putting a desk in there is like an open invitation to clutter.

I never really thought we needed a 2nd sink but that is an interesting concept, only think with our window though is that its a casement and the cranks are on the bottom.

The DW now is in the same spot and seems to work OK for us. We keep our plates & bowls in the cabinet directly avove the DW and the glasses could go up in an upper cabinet close by. The sink base is 36" - we've got a nice large Kohler stainless steel sink we'll keep, so the sink base needs to be 36".

I was thinking we may want a few more inches in front of the fridge, it is and will be side by side but I can see that if it were a single door that it would be a definate issue.

Desertsteph - Not sure which exterior wall you are referring to. If you are taking the exterior wall where the sink is now to the existing DR wall, it is about 11 ft.

Point taken on the window, we may just have to bite the bullet and change it.

I tried to put the fridge on the other side, but there is less than 4 ft from the edge of the wall to the counters, usable space would even be less than than when you consider an overhang for a counter and the handle on the fridge. I think every time I would open up the right side of the fridge I would hit the counter. I do think it would be better closer to the family room though.

I've heard those concerns about the stove on an island and also have read how people have dealt with it - which is why I was planning a large clearance on all sides of the stove - and if you look at our current layout with the stove open on one side, an island cooktop would be far superior. But that said, I'll think about your other suggestions a bit.

Yes - all the walls between the kitchen and living room & dining room are going away. I was thinking of maybe putting something in like a column that would rise up to a simulated beam (or arch) and run over to the other side of the island to define the space. I think we like the idea of taking down the room to the family room or at least open it up some. The fireplace in there is stone and I think the view would be really nice from the kitchen / living room (see model pic). Our basement is finished and I am epecting that to become the home of loud activities for the kids.

The area where the "current" is, is our laundry room which also leads to the entrance to our basement and garage.

Rhome210 - you're right, not enough room for the fridge in that area. The area on the otherside of the window is the front porch and luckily the only part of our house that isn't brick - it's vinyl siding which I could easily work with. I installed all the windows and put that siding up so I can easily do that. I actually still have extra vinyl siding from when I did that so I think the only expense would be the cost of the window - probably a few hundred. That window is the same width as the one over the sink so just making it a little shorter really wouldn't take away from the exterior appearance.

What about the range in between the 2 windows(not sure how much space is there) and the sink in the island with the DW to the right of the sink??

I have to agree that the desk space could be better utilized. As Rhome suggested, it would make a great baking counter. Having a lower counter was the best thing I ever put in my kitchen (I'm 5'4"). We don't bake as much as many here but I use it for any kind of stirring or mixing I have to do. I'm not sure how much lower 31" would feel but it should still be ok. In the days of the kitchen table (I know, I'm showing my age!), many tasks were performed there and it was 30". Of course, if you're lucky enough to be taller than 5'6", forget everything I just said.

I love your new island. Do you plan to vent in some way?

Have you considered replacing some of the cabinets with drawers?

There's about 36" between the window trim so it'd be possible I guess to put a range there. For some reason I seem to like the idea of the range on the island though. Will think about that.

As far as the venting on the island I was planning on a hood.

I have read that drawers are recommended over cabinets, but for this model I was kind of just picking cabinets based on size rather than exact type. Once we get a general layout I'll put more thought into the cabinet choices

Thanks so much for everyones input so far!

from the LO there seems to be the same space on either 'wing', so i guess the refridge will be a problem on either 'wing' if you run the cabs all the way down the wall and turn on that front 'wing' also?

I think you might be planning on moving a structural element without realizing it. I'd ask somebody about the side of the kitchen doorway leading to the entry - particularly the desk side of the door.

"from the LO there seems to be the same space on either 'wing', so i guess the refridge will be a problem on either 'wing' if you run the cabs all the way down the wall and turn on that front 'wing' also?"

As it is today (look at the hand sketch), those walls are the same length. You'll notice on my sketchup model I extended the wall on the right side to accomodate the frig.

bmorepanic - We live in a ranch with trusses supporting the roof. I am 99% sure that none of these interior wall are load bearing - with the exception of the side of the family room, which I think might be as the ceiling in the family room (running parralel with the length of the house)it is slightly vaulted - which is why I am not touching that wall. But from what I know about truss systems it may not be load bearing. But yes - before I knock any wall downs we will consult an engineer.

Thanks

I agree, I think the wall that contains the fridge/pantry/desk in the old plan looks like it could be load bearing.

"I agree, I think the wall that contains the fridge/pantry/desk in the old plan looks like it could be load bearing"

That wall definately is not. No header over the doorway leading from kitchen to DR, no nothing under the celing between the desk area and the hall closet (open ceiling / no support). The roof is supported by trusses which are designed to span long distances, a wall runing perpindicular to a truss does not necessarily make it load bearing.

It looks like you stopped the new frig wall short of the original corner (by old desk, pantry). If you took it all the way, you could get this:

This still has a 6'3" island (counter edge to edge) and all the walkways are at good 42". I have your kitchen measuring about 17'10". Is that right? Also, I agree you should definitely change the window.

It's going to beautiful with that large island. Can't wait to see it!

Houseful - it is about 17'7", so you were close.

Sounds like changing out that window is the thing to do.

I actually contemplated stretching that wall out further but I'm afraid it will act as a road block to any traffic coming out of the bedrooms. Right now all traffic to the family room , laundry room or garage goes straight through the kitchen. I can imagine that if we take down the wall to the family room traffic can enter that room between the kitchen & dining room table, but all traffic to the laundry or garage will still go through the kitchen (around the island). I figured the amount that i stretched it really wouldn't required anyone to do a 90 deg turn but would kind of naturally direct them around the island while giving a little more room to the living room.

Any thoughts on that?

Sorry, I missed the part about the trusses. The last one has potential, but I would probably try the sink between the windows so the DW was not between it and the range. It does however, limit the island to only one function, which is eating. Thats ok, but something to keep in mind.

I am not sure why separating the traffic from the bedrooms is a bad thing, but it sounds like you have reservations about that.

If I did extend this wall to include the refrigerator at the end, I would consider the view from the LR and plan that opening accordingly.

I understand that you want to eliminate the walls between the kitchen, lr, dr and possibly part or all of the family room. You can then have a fabulous kitchen but would you have any other rooms other than the kitchen? All of your living spaces would be 'kitchen centric' and with two little kids, you absolutely need some adult spaces, book, puzzle, quieter spaces--Even tho you plan to have the kids toys in the basement, in real life, they drag toys everywhere. The kid stuff expands.

How will you feel in four years? Would you feel there was no place in your house where adults could be without looking at stuff in (FisherPrice) primary colors? Would you miss having an area that was off-limits to toys, sports equipment, backpacks, papers-someplace to sit in to read, that was reasonably neat and company-ready, kind of? I don't think that a family needs to use all of their space each and every day. It's ok to have an adult, toy free, or company-only, oasis, albeit small.

Do you really want to see the kitchen from every view within the house? Most often it's a used and messy room. The smaller, the messier.

You're on the right track about building up, rather than out into floor space.

My main floor is a tad similar to yours and the kitchen IS limiting. In a same layout as mine, two streets over, a family knocked down walls and left an equal sized living/dining room and kitchen-a huge kitchen, but there's not much left of the house. The living dining area seems very cramped. They solved the kitchen space problem but created a less livable house, in my opinion.

I would absolutely block in that window, completely, where the desk is.

I would also build some upward shelving, closets, and cubbies near to the most used entry to the house---call it a mudroom, but it will take the pressure off the kitchen when the friends come over after school with shoes, jackets, backpacks, sports equipment. Perhaps off topic, or right on topic.

I gave a strongly worded opinion based on my own feelings. I did not mean to be hurtful. I do recognize that you want to tear down walls and have views of your beautiful kitchen. I know that you have spent a lot of time planning.

Many people would happily sacrifice living and dining room space for a large wonderful kitchen. There's the old debate about keeping the formal dining room and often, we just don't have that choice.

I am only thinking a few years down the line, that you possibly will dislike your house and feel it doesn't serve you well.

We are kitchen centric here- tko, totally kitchen obsessed. It's easy to catch the obsession. I've got it.

A large kitchen with family, friends, stuff, is a great thing-a way to raise kids, feed the family, do homework, create memories, all that Hallmark stuff. Just offering another viewpoint-something to think about.

Here's an "experimental" revised plan based on some of the input. I really don't see the big issue with the range on the island if it can be made large enough - then again I am used to our very bad location now.

In this one I replaced the window with shorter one to match the one near the sink. This actually might work out well since I never replaced the window in our garage and I think this one will fit there - I eventually was going to replace it anyways. With that window gone and more base cabinets there is definately no shortage of counter space, but there is still a limited amount of locations to place appliances. The range between the windows seems ok but putting the sink that far over and on only 1/2 of the window seems odd to me.

I didn't draw it on my original pics but I added something like I was thinking to delineate the kitchen space from the dining/living room.

Westsider - your points about separate spaces are good ones and we've actually been wrestling with those. We definatley want to open up to the dining and living room and I think by using something to give a feel of space separation like I am showing will help to keep it from feeling like one large room. We are not 100% certain on the wall to the family room, but in reality the kitchen will still be separated from 90% of the family room - but the family room would become open to the dining with the living room on the far end. We've gone back and forth on this. One one hand, I agree with you it's nice to have a totally separate space, but on the other hand I would say 95% of the time we'd be better off with a more open plan.

As far as kids stuff, yes our family room has it's share of stuff in it, which is partly why we want to add some built in storage on either side of the fireplace.

Not sure if you've ever read Susan Susanka but we got her book the Not So Big Remodel, and she talks alot about opening up rooms but in contrast to what most people think, if you open up but do not define spaces - with archway, column, soffit, or some other means to give the rooms definition and depth the overall space can seem smaller. I'm trying to avoid that.

It's funny you mention that about the storage near the front door. We've got a coat closet there but was just telling my wife the other day that I'd like to add a small bench for the kids to be able to sit on and get shoes on etc, and be able to store them underneath. Also would be a good spot for a coat rack with the little bit of extra wall space we'd get.

Thanks again for all the input and comments. Keep it coming.

Moved the range off of the island...

View from dining room.....

View showing arch (not set in stone but something like this to separate the spaces).....

Here are some, not well thought out, but instant thoughts. On the foyer wall, where the sidelight is, rather than a single bench, have a narrow, say 12 to 15" deep storage system, with coat hooks above, a bench, and shelving, double shelving to fit lots of shoes and backpacks, a cubby for purses somewhere.

On the very short wall at the end of the foyer and at the inside edge of the kitchen, the wall that faces into the house, maybe it's 24-40" long, build a bar, let's just call it a bar, but stash an undercounter (uc) fridge under a slab of counter, between two upstanding panels, a counter, and shelves above. Uc fridges, not dorm, not beverage, but full auto defrost refrig which can keep stuff cold, can be $3-500. The more expensive ones are just quieter-but you can check that out. Anyway, this uc frig can be used for snacks, yogurts, juice boxes, sodas, and will serve to keep traffic out of the kitchen. Can keep lunches made the night before. It will free up space in your regular frig. It can be made out of your cabinet and countertop materials.

Yes, I loved Susanka's books. Took them out of the library. For me the problem was that she often defined 'small' as 2000 s.f. Our house is 1700-1800 and has 4 brs, 2.5 baths and very compact. She uses lots of built in storage. Her principles do translate and are very helpful but the key is built in storage-slap storage on every wall--up, up, up. For most it's expensive to build but you are fortunate that you can---and boy, oh boy, do you have vision. You are talented. These are just instant thoughts and I confess that I have not spent any time analyzing your kitchen or earlier posts,-- other than I fixed on the 'open' concept. I am way not a kitchen expert but offer my thoughts as one with a small kitchen in the front of the house and windows which screw up cabinet placement.

Ok, so I posted and then I got into bed and started worrying about safety, for your children. Even tho you could put a lock on the fridge, kids like to play inside fridges, spaces like that. Call me overprotective, I don't care. You could delay the fridge until they're older. But you could still do the cabinetry and wire with proper amps for a fridge and just cover the outlet til they get older. Ikea has great storage solutions.

I know you will drool over Ikea storage. I'm going to bed and shut off the worry machine.

I was partially wrong about Susanka. As I recall, she did have smaller than 2000 s. ft. spaces. She had wonderful ideas When I read her books, I focused more on storage, as opposed to the grander design of making it pleasing with arches, pillar, turns. Where could I put 45 years of cra-stuff, two generations of kids' stuff, in same house, this same house for 33 years, and the house was born in 1960. One reforming pack rat, me, and my husband who shops and stashes. My neighbors come to my house to borrow stuff, not just the usual eggs and milk, but costumes, gag gifts, games, gizmos, deco fabrics, everything under the sun-here in my house. My husband's seventh grade papers, neatly organized but buried. He's come to terms with the fact that he wont be that kind of famous and nobody will want to read those papers, but its too late -they can't be reached or found, or dragged down. Sheepishly, she confesses that she still loves dishes-and has lots of them somewhere.
Rambling. Good night.

Westsider - I like your ideas for the foyer - I think we'll do something similar to what you suggested. I'll have to think about the undercabinet frige but I can see where it would be useful.

Don't go losing any sleep over this yet - but I appreciate your input. We're probably 1.5 years from any major renovations occuring.

I can imagine all the stuff you accumulate over the years. We've only been married 12 years and we've got more than our fair share already. Storage solutions are definately part of this remodel.

As for Ikea - you're right, although I'm not a fan of all their designs I love the functionality. If we were doing the kitchen today I'd use Ikea boxes / hardware and add custom doors.

If I'm looking at your plan correctly, it looks like you've placed the DW between sink and range. I'd swap that. This does mean less counter between sink and range but it does put your DW closer to the upper cabinets where I'm guessing you'd store dishes and glassware. Also, you have a better chance getting the sink under the window. It doesn't have to be centered but within the window framework is preferred (it's an American thing).

Also, check with your local code about clearance of range/hood from operable openings. My code requires a minimum of 36" from center of hood to operable opening. Hopefully yours is not as limiting to your floor plan as that.

What do you plan to use the island for? If you plan to do prep there, you might want to think about adding a prep sink.

I like the arch, nice touch!

Actually I'm still liking putting the range on the island better than my last revision. Assuming it goes on the island like my original plan where do you think a good location would be for a pantry? Right now we have a 24" wide tall pantry with slideouts that we really like.

I was thinking we could place something similar on the left side but then the DW would interfer when loading/unloading (see original plan), or on the right side next to the fridge, but I think that corner would become cramp unless I move the frige furter out, which I'd prefer not to do - since as it is now we'd actually be gaining a little square footage in the living room. Maybe we don't need a tall pantry? I suppose we could use some base cabintets for the lower deep pantry and then just use 12" deep wall cabinets above counter height - maybe even sitting on the counter which I think I have seen.

jdew, if you combined the best of your first and last plan with the range in the island, I think that would be a good set-up for your kitchen. You have a large enough island. Add in an island hood for better ventilation and statement and it will look great.

As for the pantry, here's a (possibly wacky) idea. Extend the upper cabinets to the left of the fridge down to the counter. Do this all the way to the wall. It's not a traditional type of pantry but it wouldn't look as bulky and it would gain you storage.

I love Lisa_a's suggestion for the pantry storage...not at all 'whacky' if you ask me. The left of your kitchen is already 'busy' with dish cleanup and storage, etc. and the right hand side, nearer the fridge and cooking area is a natural place for the pantry storage. With the stove back in the island, you have more than enough counter on that side of the room, so bringing the uppers down to the counter will look attractive, not lose you anything in function, and offer you the storage. It won't be the pullouts, but with it shallower and wider, you won't need that. I would actually prefer it to a deeper pullout.

You could even do the same on the opposite end for your dish storage...maybe with glass-front doors if you wanted.

idew and houseful - What software program are you using to draw your kitchen plans? I am also trying to draw kitchen plans for my husband who's not very good at visualizing things in his head and your diagrams are awesome!! We've had two plans done by kitchen places and I know I can do better if I just could lay it out myself. Thanks!!

I use Punchpro Platinum. It's under $100.

I'm using google sketchup

OK - I've hit a mental block on what to do with this side of the kitchen (see below). I had mentioned earlier that I wanted a pantry and I played around with placing wall cabinets all the way down to counter height but it just seemed like too much to do the whole wall that way. And if I only did that right next to the frige then it seemed like I would create a cave in the corner. So, not sure what to do there. I also think this area would be a good spot for a microwave - any suggestions on how to place microwave and what to do with the cabinets?

I liked westsiders suggestion about putting in a bench and maybe some storage in the foyer behind the wall that is pictured. I was thinking that instead of putting in a lazy susan or similar right in the corner, I could leave that space as dead and actually build in a cubby from the foyer side that we could use a drop off spot for backpacks, my work laptop, etc.

I would go ahead and do the cabinets down to the counter all the way over (I know you said you thought that would be too much, but stay with me), but leave an open spot in the configuration for the microwave...So it looks sort of built in. The bottom left corner of it would be a great place to tuck a toaster, coffee maker or other small appliance you may want to slide out onto the counter to use and have maybe a flip up door over when not in use.

I still don't think you need the doorway next to the refrigerator. You will have to walk through the archway to get around the island seating anyway, and then its six of one half a dozen the other if you swing around and go through the door next to the fridge or the one at the end of the hall. .

Well it's been a little while.

I've toyed with the idea of doing the cabinets down to the counter and a place for the microwave - this is what I came up with for that.

On the other issue of the stove on the island or not, one benefit of keeping it off of the island is that I can lean down the island a bit and make more room for walkways. But not sure it makes sense to put anywhere but the island. The only location I can find for it is between the windows. On this revised plan I tried to keep the sink in front of the window and am coming up with about 20" between the sink and range - is that too little? There will be plenty of room on either side of the sink or range, or on the island, just not between them.

Also, in this plan I move the sink over to the left and keep the dishwasher to the left of the sink. If I keep standard depth base cabinets there will be no room to stand to the left of the dishwasher and we will have to reach over it to put any dishes, glasses, etc. away. If I go with only 12" basecabinets that gives me about 15" to get between to get to the cabinets (more than our current layout gives us). I show a shallow counter above the base cabinets here now, but maybe they could extend all the way up?

What do you all think? Range on island or between windows in somewhat close to the sink?

Top

Left

Right

Anyone?

Where do YOU really want the range? I would let that be your guide. I think you had a decent plan with the range on the island and I still favor a prep sink under the right window. :-)

This one with it on the wall seems OK, too, if you prefer it back there and the island clear. It seemed like a little bit better use of counter with the stove in the island, but I can argue either way on that...

Looking at this last one...This is just a little aside concerning more minor details...I prefer not to have the upper diagonal (personal opinion), and I think you also want to make sure you don't crowd the window on that left side. If you're going to wrap cabinets around to the window wall, make sure they're no closer to the window than the cabinets on the other end are to the right side window.

I'm with rhome on this. Figure out what you want. Perhaps drawing up a list of pros and cons for each layout will help you decide.

But if you want my opinion ;-) I think this last plan with the stove against the outer wall makes the DW, sink and range look crowded together. It certainly doesn't provide for the NKBA recommended clearances for the features. If the sink was between fridge and range it might work better (although landing clearances are still minimal) but I think there will be kitchen collisions (say that 5 times fast) since fridge/sink traffic will cross through the cooking zone. The range in the island would move the cooking zone out of that traffic pattern. Then there's the less than desirable DW/dishware storage issue you mentioned. It seems to me that you're making quite a few compromises to move the range out of the island.

So I have to ask, why are you moving it? Because some GWers are rabidly opposed to ranges/cooktops in islands? (You have a sufficiently large enough island to provide safety clearances around a range.) Or because it suits your family and your kitchen needs better?

This leads back to rhome's suggestion: figure out what YOU want and go from there.

I like the cabinets down to the counter and the MW's location (and I'm not just saying that because I suggested it, lol). It's a good use of space and nice look.

Initially we were real gun-ho about the range on the island, then yes after reading the back and forth debates on island stoves I started to rethink. The only negative really to the island range is that it reduces the usable space on the island. But we gain a ton of counter space off of the island and a less awkward positioning of the left side of the kitchen. I do agree too that the island would be big enough to accomodate the range and allow room for seating. I guess we don't feel strongly one way or the other - it would be kind of neat to have the range on the island, we also like the idea of having it off the island to just have one large expanse of island space, but I don't think its worth it if it creates an odd layout. I really can't find another location for the range, so unless someone has any recommendations I guess it would go back on the island. Gee - helps to talk things through sometimes.

Also Rhome - we're not set on any specific cabinet choices, really just filling the space for now to get the layout sorted.

Lisa - I think the cabinets in that area will look good too. still toying to see if we could get ina little larger pantry but really, with the 15" shown and the cabinets to the left of the fridge, I think it'll be enough space for us.

The window wall in your last layout looks pretty similar to mine. Actually the whole layout is kind of close! How big is the cabinet between the range and the sink? Mine is 30", but to be honest it doesn't get used often because of the prep sink...most prepping gets done on the counter run between fridge and range since it's centrally located. Here's a pic, you can't see the dishwasher but it's to the very left of the sink:

Donka - that cabinet in our layout is 18"

donka, your kitchen is so lovely!

jdew, have you thought about putting the sink and DW in the island instead of on the perimeter?

One other idea: keep the latest layout but add a prep sink to the island, same location as donka's. Seems like that would ease traffic crunches since it would move the food prep area to the island, just a couple steps from the fridge and pantry storage.

You could prep on the 20" between sink and range but that's snug (I have 16" on either side of my island cooktop and it's just not enough, which is why I'm remodeling). You could prep on the other side of the range but then you're criss-crossing zones again.