what are measurements of area w/ basement stairs? it looks huge - much larger than needed for a stairway.

measurements of mudroom?

of island to cabs on L and R? and end of island to lower wall?
is the window you think might be removed the one over the sink?

Is it physically possible to move the location of the mudroom door to where the pantry is? I know you would rather not move walls and doors, but right now, people entering from the mud room would walk straight into the side of the open dishwasher, and if that weren't in their way, the pantry would naturally funnel people through all the main work zones of the kitchen. Plus, the entry space is sort of a weird shape.

If the mudroom door were moved to where the pantry is, you could put your fridge where you have the chalkboard now. This would mean:

1) There is no longer an island blocking the fridge from the main work zones.

2) The fridge would not block any walkways when open with a person standing in front of it studying its contents.

3) The wall you had the fridge on in the proposed layout could just be a wall of pantry cabinets. Without the fridge there, those pantry cabinets can and should be way less deep than the pantry cabinets you have next to the fridge now in your proposed layout. Most people find 12"-18" deep shelves ideal for a pantry (so items don't get lost in the back and it's easy to see everything in there at a glance), and relatively shallow cabinets like that are cheaper too because you aren't paying for extra materials or expensive pull-outs (to make the excess depth of a fridge-depth pantry less of an issue). This means, in total, a better pantry for you, AND:

4) More space for the island to fit. If you had a pantry more shallow like that, you would end up with full 48" walkways on both sides of island (or more, if your pantry were 15" deep vs. 18"), which is plenty to make that island fit comfortably.

In addition to all the many benefits of being able to move the fridge, the entry from the mudroom wouldn't be such a weird shape and would look a lot cleaner, and your traffic patterns would be better through the kitchen.

You might just get a quote for moving the mud room door. It probably costs less than you think. If it is a $1000 or less, it would be a total no-brainer decison in a remodel of this scope. I'd even consider it up to $3000 considering how useful it would be.

I am also curious why the basement stairs are so big. There might be coat storage possibilities there.

Since resale is a definite thing for you, I would not get rid of the window. Maybe move it, but I think buyers would expect one. I could see not having a window in the kitchen in a loft or apartment or some place that often just has exterior walls in one or two sides. That is a common compromise to live in a city or just to live somewhere cheaper than a house.

But in a house like yours, a window above the kitchen sink is expected and will be missed. And it's not just about the light it brings in, but also the feeling of space in front of your face while you are bent over the sink doing dishes. It is SO different to have a solid wall right there in your face. There is also quite a difference in what you have to look at. I would vaaaaaastly rather look at trees than a wall.

Also, is it true in your area too that if a room has no heat like your three seasons room, it does not count towards the total square footage of your home when you go to sell it?

If so, it really might be worth to run HVAC to that room and/or the mudroom when you have the kitchen ceiling torn up anyway for the soffit/electrical work. If running the HVAC to either is straightforward, that'll be a lot of bang for your buck down the line. Probably not worth it if there are complications to getting vents where you need them -- that can add up.

desertsteph-
I agree it's a weird space for the stairs. About half that width is a normal sized staircase. The other half is actually in the "mudroom," which is really a breezeway between the garage and house. I'd consider opening up to that space, but it's two steps lower than the kitchen. The strange layout is the main reason why I keep going back to the drawing board. Here's a better representation of the mudroom and dimensions of the rooms adjacent.

{{gwi:2137845}}

In the revised layout (based on Jillius' suggestions), I'd about 48" to the left and right of the island, 34" to the corner with the basement door, and a little over 7 feet to the wall with the kitchen table.

Jillius-
Very good points. I believe the door could move. That's an idea I keep toying with, too. You're right about the window. I do have a beautiful back yard (nearly an acre, mature trees, etc.), which is why I'm even considering remodeling vs. moving now.

Correct on the sq. footage. I would gain almost 500 square feet in a house with approx. 2100 sq ft finished, so it's probably worth doing.

How about this revision:

{{gwi:2137846}}

{{gwi:2137847}}

Thanks for your feedback!

That does look a lot better. I have two other ideas. I know you don't want to spend much, but I figure you should have the ideas and then weigh the cost/benefit.

1) It sounds as if you have a finished basement. What if you removed the wall between the stairs and the pantry cabinet and installed a banister instead? Something visually lightweight, but nothing fancy or attention-grabbing. Like this:

{{gwi:2137848}}

That would makes the big staircase bulge into your kitchen seem much smaller and therefore less odd. It would visually be reduced to only the mud-room bulge, essentially, because your eye would go all the way to the mudroom wall and see that as the perimeter of the room instead of the stair banister.

Like here, you don't see the room as stopping at the banister. You see it as stopping at the big wall behind the banister:

{{gwi:2137849}}

You have a slightly tight walkway between the stairs and the island now, and this change would also make that walkway feel very open and not-tight, even though it would not change dimensions.

I read a blog called Manhattan Nest where this guy is rehabbing a historic house, and one of the things he did was remove a wall enclosing stairs to reveal a banister that the wall had been built around. His before and after just of that demolition really demonstrates how much space that change creates.

Before:
{{gwi:2137850}}

After:
{{gwi:2137851}}

Most of that oddity in your room that has caused you such problems would just disappear.

2) Since your backyard is lovely and with big trees and one of the things you enjoy most about the house (and buyers would agree with you too, I'm sure), it is a shame it isn't featured more. You have ton of storage with your island and your pantry. You could easily lose some or all of your uppers and replace them with windows.

{{gwi:2137852}}

Windows like that with the type of view that you have out your back door is the dream, really. You could easily go with humble finishes or more basic appliances to make up some or all of the cost of installing windows, and your kitchen would seriously still sing.

It is the kind of feature that makes you really happy to stayed to live in your house, and it would make buyers in the future want to live there too.

Here is how you could incorporate a window feature wall in your layout:

{{gwi:2137853}}

a) The pale blue line is one big window or a line of windows.

b) I moved the fridge away from the corner a bit. You need 6-12" of space between a fridge and the wall beside it for the door to swing open enough that you can open the fridge drawers.

c) I moved the sink closer to the fridge (now there is only the space of the dishwasher between them) so you could have more of that prime prep space between the sink and range. This also spreads the work areas out a bit so if you have more than one cook, they won't always be back-to-back, which is nice.

d) I shortened the island very slightly so it is now even with where the counter to the left of the range ends. That just looks neater and more deliberate, and there isn't any room to spare around the table anyway.

e) I am picturing a big square range hood like this, so it will balance the fridge on the other side of the window for a symmetrical arrangement of tall-stuff-with-straight-sides-that-stick-out-24"-inches-to-the-ceiling on either side of the window.

{{gwi:2137854}}

f) The dotted line is a banister.

This post was edited by Jillius on Tue, Jan 13, 15 at 14:13

Since I live in Iowa, too, I just want to mention we often get a week at a time of blizzard/wind/snow/below zero weather. The open stair well and the added windows are wonderful ideas, especially for the 6 months of dark cold winter. On the other hand, might not be so friendly to the heating bill. It could be done. It might end up costing more than you expect in other ways. Or it might not make any difference. Maybe your a/c savings in the summer would off set costs in the winter. OR maybe the heat will stagnate in the kitchen in the summer. It all depends on air flow. Nothing like 98° and 98% in July! It makes the corn grow!

Love your ideas, Jillius.

Not as nice, but less expensive, you could tear out the pantry and put the fridge there.

Sorry for the delay in replying. It's been a crazy busy week.

Great ideas again, Jillius. I think I'll definitely try to work in the larger window. That would probably make a huge difference in light. I'd just need to make sure they're very energy efficient windows.

What do you think about "swapping" the appliance wall layout and having the fridge closest to the 3-season room? It would be more convenient there for access to water/drinks from the living room and the kitchen table, but maybe not great if an island is right there.

I'll have to consider the banister idea. To lov_mkitchen's point, It does get pretty cold in the basement in the winter.

Thanks again!

Would you maybe want the fridge down on the end by the table area? Thinking that you then wouldn't have people walking through your work space to get a drink when you were cooking, although I guess they could walk around the island, too.

Have you thought about a prep sink in your island at all?

I thought about swapping the fridge and stove locations too, but ultimately decided it was better to have the fridge where there was more standing room in front of it. You are right that it's less good to have the island in front of it.

And a fridge is a big, bulky tall thing that feels so much less so when it is in a corner by a wall rather than out in the middle of things, this big bohemoth between the cooks and people sitting at the table.

In your OP, you wrote,

"The door to the mudroom is not the "front door," but it is the entry that is used 99% of the time. We access the basement daily (laundry, family room, one bedroom).

Things I don't like about my current layout:
1. Range location - it is on an end run in the heaviest traffic pattern of the house. Inconvenient and dangerous.

6. Congestion at the door. The mudroom is not currently heated (more of a breezeway, I live in Iowa), which is why you see jackets, etc. by the door. I plan to either heat it or use the pantry closet as a coat closet, with storage at the top for little used dishes, appliance, etc.

I don't think your issues are resolved with your plan or with subsequent suggestions. I drew out the traffic patterns from various areas of your home to the fridge (a family opens the fridge, on average, 150 times a day).

{{gwi:2137855}}

Notice how much of that traffic goes past your range and ends up by the mudroom door.

Swapping the location of the range and fridge helps somewhat

{{gwi:2137856}}

But you still have the congestion at the back door to deal with by your range.

Is there a reason why you've moved away from a peninsula to an island? Do you need or insist on island seating? Is your dining area really only 85" wide? That's on the narrow side for the only table seating, especially since you have to go through that area to get to the 3 season porch.

I think a shallow U kitchen or an L with peninsula or something similar will gain you the better traffic flow it sounds like you want. Perhaps something along these lines:

{{gwi:2137857}}

The above is very rough, obviously. I added a new wall to give you a longer run of cabinetry next to the range plus a prep sink nearby. Behind the new wall is a small mudroom, a place to stash coats, shoes, etc, hidden from view (usually not an attractive sight). I added a shallow pantry near the relocated back door.

Anyhoo, you can see that the fridge traffic pattern does not interfere with the mudroom activity or cross past the range. There might be room for a small island, too, but given how narrow your DR area is, it wouldn't hurt to have a little more room around the table either.

I just got on to post my new layouts, but now that I see lisa_a's post, I'm thinking again. Which is a good thing... although my first post was only a year ago, I've been trying to figure out this kitchen for the 8 years that I've lived here!

I definitely like your points, too, lisa, I'm going to try to work those up now. Honestly, I really don't need island seating. It's just a given in new homes in my area (new construction is my alternate plan to remodeling this house), so I thought for resale it would be good. The current dining area is super cramped, which I haven't addressed much yet. Hmm, so many things to think about!

In the meantime, here's my rendition of Jillius's ideas, with a few more uppers. The window is still over twice the size as the current one (original plan's dimensions accounted for trim - I'd go with a "trimless" window), which is great.

I really love the idea of a real range hood. I just didn't change it in this layout because I'm feeling lazy ;).

{{gwi:2137858}}

{{gwi:2137859}}

Okay, since island seating isn't a must, here's my rough draft Plan B fleshed out some more.

{{gwi:2137860}}

The fridge run counters are 30" deep so that a standard depth fridge will appear less bulky. The extra deep counters will also come in handy in this area. If you can, get a cab that is 28.5" deep with deep guides for the drawers to max out the storage to the right of the clean-up sink.

I drew in a banquette for your dining area. It will seat 6. I did the math to see if you had room to extend the table to seat 8 but it was really, really tight between the table corner and the fridge door. But I'll play wit this again tomorrow and see if I can find another way to seat 8 so that you can seat your family and 3 extras.

The drawers in the banquette bench provide additional storage, perhaps for kids' craft supplies, etc.

[{{gwi:2137861}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/st-paul-whole-home-renovation-traditional-dining-room-minneapolis-phvw-vp~1744724)

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Woodbury Design-Build Firms Ispiri Design-Build

This plan requires that you move the window and build the new wall between kitchen and mudroom but other than that, there's no major structural changes. And it lets you keep your hood venting where it is, which saves you money.

It is, however, quite a walk from fridge to prep sink so I drew up Plan C.

{{gwi:2137862}}

I swapped location of range and prep sink, which gives you a long stretch of counter - 42" - for prepping between sink and range. It's also a shorter walk from fridge to sink so it follows Marcolo's Ice-Water-Stone-Fire recommendation with less criss-crossing. The trash pull-out is accessible from clean-up sink counter and prep area. That's a plus, IMO.

I also added a small island. It is between fridge and range but it isn't between fridge and water so I don't really consider it a barrier island (the blue line shows the Ice-Water-Stone-Fire path). Plus it gives you more storage and counter in your kitchen. You could easily have 3 people prepping in this kitchen: one between prep sink and range, one on the right side of the range and one on the island.

The island would also serve as a buffet since your table is fairly narrow.

The island does *not* have seating. You just don't have enough room for that. It does however, include shallow cabs on the backside facing the table. You could use these cabs for display, cookbooks, etc.

I understand now wanting to spend a lot of money in a home you won't be in for long but I think it would be worth investigating what it would cost to convert the 3 season porch to a DR. If the table could be relocated, that would open up additional possibilities for your kitchen, one with an island with seating. It's possible that you could get a good return on that investment when you go to sell your home, especially since you'd be adding features found in newer homes. Talk to a contractor and talk to a realtor to find out the pros and cons of this idea.

This post was edited by lisa_a on Tue, Jan 20, 15 at 13:24

I figured you were leaning towards an island with seating for resale purposes. There are better layouts, but it kinda makes sense in your position to go with a mostly functional layout that will appeal to toooooooons of buyers. There is just an absolute mania for islands.

Perhaps you can curve the back of the island to encourage traffic from the mud room to walk around the island rather than through the work spaces. It will be better with the mudroom door moved, but not perfect, so every little bit helps.

{{gwi:2137863}}

{{gwi:2137864}}

And I don't know how other buyers would feel on this, but if I were buying a house with no dining room, I would feel pretty strongly that the kitchen table should be a real table that has enough space around it for real chairs and to expand with some extra leaves added. I would not be okay with a banquette or any if the other variations of compromise table set-ups that people have when there isn't enough space for a real table. If it is the only table, I'd feel it should be a good table set-up, you know?

I did not realize your current seating area was so cramped. It looks fine in the 3D pictures. That does make a good argument for fixing the three season room. Have you priced that out?

Just as a polite rebuttal, that statistic about opening the fridge 150 times sounds a bit suspect. I opened the fridge six times today. At that rate, there would need to be 25 people in my family for us to be even average. And the traffic in front of the fridge by the mudroom door is by design. There is actually lots of space there for opening the fridge and standing in front of it while normal traffic passes behind you unhindered. That space in front if the fridge was the point of that location. There is about seven feet of space in front of the fridge there. And people will have already stopped in the newly heated mudroom to take stuff off, so they will be just walking by, not gathering in front of the fridge.

I wrote "on average" Jillius. That means that some people open it more often and others, like you, open it less frequently. I do know that it's the most accessed appliance in my house so I'd rather it wasn't buried deep in a kitchen space. But that's my preference.

btw, I didn't just pull that figure out of thin air. I've read it a number of times on professional kitchen design sites. I can't find the link that had this information at the moment (should have bookmarked it) but I'll keep looking.

"And I don't know how other buyers would feel on this, but if I were buying a house with no dining room, I would feel pretty strongly that the kitchen table should be a real table that has enough space around it for real chairs and to expand with some extra leaves added."

I agree. However, to do so in the OP's current space would require that she give up at least 3 feet of kitchen to get a decent sized dining room (36" aisle between 42" table & wall, 44" aisle on opposite site).

hawkeyekitchen, you could create a corridor kitchen from mudroom to DR but I think that would work best if you remodeled to heat at least a portion of the large mudroom you have (becoming countable square footage) and get that activity out of the kitchen. That would likely be a less expensive fix than heating and cooling the 3 season porch since it's a smaller space.

K1tchens and master baths sell homes, or so I'm frequently told by my realtor friends and relatives. You may benefit in the long run by spending a little more money now. If you can. I know how budgets can rear their ugly heads. = )

This post was edited by lisa_a on Tue, Jan 20, 15 at 17:46

hawkeyekitchen, I see that I got confused on your measurements so my drawing is off by 5 7/8", which means that the clearance between table and fridge and table and island is less than I noted on the drawing.

I drew up a baseline of your kitchen with measurements.

{{gwi:2137865}}

I removed the walk-in pantry but otherwise, the space is as it currently is. Please check that this is an accurate depiction of your existing, empty space. Also, I need you to supply the measurement for the width of the bottom wall and the width of the hallway that leads to the bedrooms and bathrooms. If you supplied that earlier, I can't find it.

Here are two corridor kitchens, both with large walk-in pantries and a good-sized dining room. I went off the measurements in my above post, hopefully they are correct.

Both of these plans require you to heat and cool at least a small portion of your mudroom. It doesn't have to be the whole space, just the width of your kitchen at that end. That gets the coats, etc out of your kitchen and into the mudroom. It also allows me to swap a swing door for a sliding barn door; one less door swing is a good thing.

Red - relocated or new windows
Green - upper cabs
Blue - table w/out table leaves

Plan D
{{gwi:2137866}}

Starting at the bottom, I allotted 130" for your dining area. As I pointed out previously, giving you a decent sized DR reduces the size of your kitchen but, IMO, you still end up with a functional kitchen with decent counter and ample storage. Galley kitchens are one of the most functional, efficient kitchen lay-outs.

btw, 44" is the minimum recommended for aisles wide enough to allow people to walk behind seated diners. It will improve the function, flow and feel of the space. It will likely feel palatial compared to what you're working with now. ;-)

On to the kitchen.

As suggested by Jillius, I moved the mudroom door to the right.

I swapped out the mudroom and basement doors for sliding barn doors.

[{{gwi:2137867}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-9072-traditional-kitchen-columbus-phvw-vp~550437)

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Columbus Design-Build Firms J.S. Brown & Co.

The one below is for a basement door in a home in MA (designed by a GWer with lots of forum advice. Awarded top prize in 2013 NKBA competition):

[{{gwi:2137868}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-contenders-in-the-2013-nkba-design-competition-traditional-kitchen-phvw-vp~3644966)

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107)

I put the sink and range on the same wall so that you won't have to move across the aisle to get water or to dump a pot of boiling pasta. You also end up with a good stretch of counter between sink and range. It will be dead easy to vent a hood to the exterior.

The fridge - standard depth, not counter depth - is across from the sink with a decent sized counter next to it. The MW is a GE Spacermaker II, designed to fit in a standard depth upper cab. This makes that area a snack zone.

Behind them is a good-sized walk in pantry. It's roughly the same size as the one I have but since yours won't be under stairs, it will hold more than mine does.

Here's mine:

Yes, it is narrow but it is big enough to handle several teenage boys in it at once. My oldest son isn't big but several of his friends are. I should have taken a photo of that. ;-)

Plan E is a slight modification of Plan D
{{gwi:2137869}}

I reduced the aisle to 60", still a good size for a corridor kitchen. That made room for 15" deep, floor to ceiling cabs across from the range and a wider pantry. With all that extra storage, you should have room to eliminate uppers on the sink/range wall and add a wall of windows, which will be lovely, like in the photo Jillius posted earlier.

Because the mudroom door shifted to the left, I switched the sliding barn door to the mudroom. There isn't enough wall between opening and cabs for it to slide completely out of the way. You don't have as much clearance between entry and range as you do with Plan D but you still have a good cushion of space around it. You could open the oven and not worry about someone coming around the corner from the mudroom and running into it.

Another option for the mudroom and basement doors would be to add pocket doors but that requires more structural work and more cost.

I'm loving the ideas!

What would you guys do for a layout if I were to remove the dining table (either make a combined dining/living combo, which I have room for, or upgrade the 3 season room), with an island that would comfortably seat five, preferably going around one of the ends, not all in a row?

Constraints would be that the stairs area w/basement door and openings to LR and hall wouldn't change. Pantry removal, French door to 3 seasons moving/sizing and window moving/sizing are possible.