It seems like an odd layout. The range and sink being so close is what throws me. I also think the DW on the left will be inconvenient (unless you are left-handed).

Have you considered keeping the big windows, centering the sink there, moving the fridge to the end of the counter where the DW is now, and centering the range on the wall where the fridge is now?

Range & sink....way too close to each other!!!

Bikey is right about rearranging things. Workflow goes from refrigerator/pantry to...sink & prep to...range/oven/MW for cooking to...DR/island for eating to...sink for cleanup.

There is too much criss-crossing in this design.

Ideally, the refrigerator should be on the fringe of the kitchen so it can be easily accessed by snackers w/o interfering with people in the kitchen and by people in the kitchen prepping/cooking/cleaning up.

Are you planning to have a pantry? A Message Center is highly recommended.

Do you want a baking center? Beverage center?

Before you go much further with this, I recommend:

First step: Take the "Sweeby Test" It will help you define what it is you want out of your kitchen (besides "things").

Next, evaluate your current kitchen...what works, what doesn't AND what do you like, what don't you like (not always the same thing!) How many people will be working in the kitchen? Do you have children? If yes, how many and how old are they? Are you retired? Do you need to accommodate special needs? These are just a few of the questions to ask yourself. See Beginning a Kitchen Plan

While doing the above... Think about and set your budget. Include:
* Cabinets (incl drawer bases, glass doors & shelving, trash pullout, crown molding, light rail, other upgrades)
* Flooring
* Appliances
* Backsplash
* Lighting (overhead, fixtures/pendants/under cabinet)
* Countertop
* Sink(s), faucet(s), soap dispenser(s), hot water boosters (w.g., InstaHot), filtered water
* Garbage disposal(s)

Design

Layout: Once you've figured out what it is you want from your new kitchen, it's time to start thinking about the layout itself.

* The best place to start is to draw up your kitchen (to scale, if possible) without cabinets & appliances. This means measuring everything...walls, ceiling height, widths of doors & windows, distances between windows, walls, doorways, etc.

* Mark all doorways & windows (w/dimensions) and label them as to where they lead. If they're actual doors, mark how they swing.

* It also would be helpful to see the connecting rooms, even layouts so you see how they interact with the kitchen and/or extend the kitchen feel and flow.

Make a list of things like:

* What is your goal E.g., more counter space, more storage, seating in the kitchen (island? peninsula? table?), etc.

* Where are you flexible?
.....Can windows or doorways change size?
.....Can they be moved?
.....Can windows be raised/lowered?
.....Can any walls come down?
.....Does the sink have to be centered under a window?
.....Does it have to be under a window at all?

* Do you bake? Do you want a coffee/tea/beverage center?

* What appliances do you plan on having (helps to figure out work flow, work zones, and types of cabinets...upper/lower vs full height, etc.)
.....Range or Cooktop?
.....Single or Double or no Wall Oven?
.....Warming Drawer?
.....MW? (Advantium, drawer, OTR, countertop, built-in, shelf?)
.....DW? Standard or drawers? If drawers, 1 or 2?
.....Refrigerator CD or standard depth?
.....Vent Hood?
.....Other?
Sizes of desired appliances (e.g., 30" or 36" or 48" cooktop; 36" or 42" or 48" wide or other Refrigerator? etc.)

* Pantry: Walk-in or cabinets?

***** Very Important *****

Is there anything you:
* Can't live without?
* Definitely don't want?
* Would like if we can find a way?

This information will be valuable to not only you, but also any Kitchen Designers you may hire or talk to. Additionally, if you've been haunting the site, you'll notice that we also help with almost all aspects of the remodel, including layout help.

All of the above information will help us help you. Sometimes we stray from what you think you want to give you some ideas that you might not have thought of, but it's your kitchen and you can veto anything...we may argue for something (we're good at that!), but in the end it's what you want. And remember, nothing is ever cast in stone here and in the end when you finalize your design it's whatever you want and decide on! After all, this is your kitchen!

Good luck and welcome to the Kitchens Forum!

Links that might be helpful:

Sweeby Test

Kitchen Forum FAQ

Kitchen Forum Acronyms

Beginning a Kitchen Plan

Finished Kitchens Blog

Appliances Forum

Kitchen Forum threads that might be helpful:

Best advice from this forum

Care to share your best kitchen storage ideas?

Now that I have [X], I think I could have lived without it

tray cabinets - top 1/2 wasted space

What do you wish you had done differently?

Oops...just saw the pantry...

It looks like a wall of cabinets for the pantry...is this what you want? Or, would you rather have a walk-in or step-in pantry?

The oven in the corner blocks access to the corner cabinets... While a "blind corner" unit would work, most people here have found a lazy susan is much more useful; which means you need to have approx 12" on each side of the corner.

Is the lower counter run a peninsula? What does it face? Do you want seating there?

Your island seating looks a little shallow. If it's counter height, you really should have 15". If it's bar height, 12" will work for the seating overhang, but 15" to 18" is better for the counter in front of the seater to allow you to put a place setting on the raised area (12" plate + glass + silverware + room so nothing is teetering on the edge)

I agree the layout looks a little funny, but maybe you already worked on it? Where is your entrance where you'll be bringing in groceries? Obviously you want the frig close to that or else an intentional distance. I have an open-concept greatroom, so we faced similar issues. Guess I'm not seeing how the rest of your space relates to the kitchen. I thought about what I wanted to see from the living room, and in my case I took great pains to shove the stove into the corner, so you literally don't see anything "kitcheny" at all. (minimal uppers, no hood) Not saying you have to do that, but you might consider the view from the couch when you do your layout. A clear shot of the frig might not be your favorite scenery.

Currently your prep sink is in front of your clean-up/main, which doesn't make sense. It's perfectly fine to put the dw to the left of the clean-up sink. It's what Don Silvers (Kitchen Design with Cooking in Mind) recommends for right-handeds, and it's what I've had happily for many years. I think you can get used to anything, so I'd just do whatever seems best to you. I have it though and it's fine.

I'd encourage you to think in terms of sections, zones or use, whatever you want to call it. Your dw and main sink should be in a totally separate place from where you prep, otherwise your dirty dishes are on the counters where you're trying to work. Currently you have a long line of unbroken counter over by the ovens, way far away from any water. That's primo prep space being wasted!! So try to connect those. Are both of the thick, black walls exterior, meaning you could put the range anywhere along there? And is that long, unbroken perimeter counter by the oven on a wall or a peninsula? If it's a wall, you could move the frig over there and put the stove where the frig is now. What are the dimensions of the island currently? If you move the frig, you'd want to watch that aisle width. The island might need to be narrowed a bit and move the seating to what would become the long side, over by the clean-up area. Your prep sink could go in the bottom right corner, as you go from the new frig location to the new stove location I suggested. I would move your tall pantries, if you must do them (I prefer a walk-in pantry) to beside the new frig location. That puts all your tall things on one wall, together.

I'm doing a two-level island in my kitchen, because it gets me a backsplash in which to insert outlets. Your raised area, which you don't seem to prefer, would not get you those, at least not in a way that's easy to reach. It probably has little it will hide, since the rest of your kitchen is tucked in so far, meaning the shielding advantage of clutter is minimal. I think if you narrow the island a fuzz and move the seating, it will look so dramatically different, more streamlined, that raising part of it wouldn't make sense. Ooo, yes you could! You could raise just the end of it with say a 12" or 15" deep cabinet for cookbooks or glass or something. That would look really sharp and be a nice view from the living room. Or raise it and then put a lowered desk area on the other side (effectively making the island even longer). I didn't see a phone or mail center in your kitchen or homework station, so it would serve that.

Pick out some nice light fixtures to really make the island your focal point! :)

All this moving stuff around by other people from where you didn't intend it to be needs to stop, too. The person who chops the onions gets to design the area where that takes place. Really! Gather strength and ammo from friends here and be firm!

If that window was moved to balance one farther down the wall, does it actually do that? Kitchen windows are usually higher in the wall than others anyway, so the effect is spoiled, but many people take matching windows as some sort of holy mandate. Put that window (or pair of windows), right where you want and need it, and will enjoy it most, from the INSIDE, THEN if it bothers somebody plant a small-to-medium tree or trees out far enough to block the main view of the house from taking in both windows at once. If you don't think this works and frequently creates a truly beautiful impression, drive a neighborhood of pretty homes and analyze the fronts of the most attractive and appealing ones. Most people are very surprised. Few of the most beautiful homes are ones with the proud facade ruling over an effacing landscape. A little mystery is a great enhancer.

I think most people who come here, want their kitchen to be functional, not just something that "looks nice". When many of us started out, we didn't really know what was best so we came up with a starting layout and then we asked for help here... I know that if it hadn't been for what I learned here and what everyone did to help me with my layout, my kitchen would not be anywhere near as well-designed as it is.

I assume that if someone asks for layout help they want just that...layout help...not someone to "rubber stamp" their design so they get a "warm & fuzzy". You know what they say, "be careful what you ask for..."

That being said, we all agree that in the end the kitchen belongs to the poster and they can "take it or leave it"...it's up to them. When asked for help, I believe I should be honest with the person asking...

A quick and dirty rearrangement of what you have shown above:

These few changes allow you to have:

*Clear cook/prep zones, cleanup zone, the fridge on the edge of the kitchen but near the main island prep zone, and the pantry right next to it. (I like all the food storage together.)

* Two people can cook at the same time: one at the island, and one between the main sink and range.

* The range placement is in a good place if you want to do a fancy hood and/or backspash to make it the focal point of the kitchen b/c it will be visable from the rest of the house.

* I envisioned a pullout trash on the corner of the island nearest the range/cleanup sink. Have it open towards the cleanup sink. I have this detup and the trash is SO well located for dishes and for sweeping junk off the island and directly into the trash.

* Note the change in clearances around the island so that the aisle by the fridge is 4'.

Something I wasn't 100% sure about was if the oven shown there was going to be an undercounter one?

Thanks guys! Great suggestions! I knew it wasn't right, but couldn't put my finger on it. I think it started out better and I had thought through a lot of things, but as it got rotated and moved and switched, etc, due to other things in the house, it got out of whack. Glad to have this forum to help get it straightened out.

I think going back through the process buehl suggests will definitely help.

FYI - It's in the back right corner of the house with the dining area to the left. The back door is also to the left (on same wall as sink) which will provide access to outdoor entertaining.

The cabinets/counters at the bottom are a penisula with basically the great room on the other side. I'd like to finish it so that from the sitting area it looks more like a low wall than a counter top. So the living room side will be a few inches taller.

The pantry will be like a large closet with custom shelves.

rosie, don't worry...the discrepancies in the design are due to miscommunications not them pushing me around. Don't worry, it will be built the way I want it.

alku05 - I was typing my response as you posted yours! That would work great execpt the bottom isn't a wall. Sorry! I like everything else about it! I'll incorporate what I can.

OK guys...I'm going to take everything you've said so far and see if I can rework this design. Thanks you so much!!

Oh, if the bottom is a penninsula, the layout I did won't work at all!

How about these changes to it...

-Put the fridge where I marked the coffee center.

-Put the oven under counter in the penninsula kinda near the corner

-Pantries where the oven used to be.

OR

-Move the fridge to the coffee place

-Do a step in corner pantry in the corner of the penninsula. If you're planning on doing a pony wall (half wall) for the penninsula, the narrow wall for the corner pantry will look fine there.

-The oven can go on the range wall, or in the island, or even in the penninsula still. Lots of options for the extra oven, assuming it's an undercounter one.

They style is different, but I had a similar shape to my old kitchen so I'm attaching a picture. I had a hutch behind where you have your stools for dishes. I also had my dishwasher between the fridge and the sink (I am right handed) but that worked well for putting away dishes -- I think it would have been fine on the right also.

Our overall kitchen was 15 x 17 and the island was 88" x 44"

alku05 - I hadn't thought of an undercounter oven. I didn't know they made them except as part of a range. I need to evaluate my oven needs. OK...time to visit the appliance forum... I think your second option sounds interesting.

borngrace - I see the similarities. And reminded me that I keep forgetting the microwave. Actually, the workflow pattern is very similar to my current kitchen except my fridge is where your ovens are. The pictures help a lot.

Thanks! I'm so glad I found this forum.

Here's one possibility (sorry it's taken me so long to post it, dinner and then child care duties interfered since I drew it up).

I thought I'd show you a design w/a corner pantry. It does, however, require a window 5" shorter than the 7'5" you currently have in your layout. If that window is non-negotiable, then a different setup is needed. Note that I didn't put in any upper cabinets. It sounded like you wanted it completely open. You do have a lot of storage so I think you'll be fine.

This layout puts the refrigerator near both the kitchen & DR, gives you plenty of prep space on the island and either side of the range/cooktop, puts the prep sink across from the cooktop/range & MW and near prep areas, and separates the work zones so there won't be much bumping elbows while working! Cleanup zone on the window wall, cooking zone on the the right wall, and prep areas interspersed so you can prep where you need to or allow several people to prep at the same time. (BTW...the MW could go on the "top" of the island across from the main/cleanup sink if you'd rather. I thought you might want dish drawers there so I put the MW on the end near the prep sink & range/cooktop.)

You said that you want a short wall b/w the GR and Kitchen. I had thought of taking that row of counters out and making the Island longer and shallower, allowing for more seating; but it sounds like that's not something you'd like.

Thanks, buehl! That seems to resolve most if not all of the issues. It definitely make the penisula more usable. Obviously much better than my original plan.

I'm still thinking about the refrigerator. I've posted below a bigger picture of the layout(before these changes). Would the fridge in that location be intrusive to the dining area and back door?

PS - Please ignore the furniture placement in the great room...it's random.

Oh, I mistakenly thought the great room was off the island side, and the dining room was off the penninsula side...I'm just misinterpretting things left and right tonight, aren't I?

Knowing that, I wouldn't want the fridge on that sink wall unless it was a very nice (read $$$$) 100% integrated one. I just don't like looking at a big metal fridge while in the living areas.

Since your penninsula has no seating, have you considered running the peninsula between the kitchen and dining room, and the island along the great room? Having the island seating would be nice on the great room side, and you really don't need two different types of seating in the diningroom. The penninsula along the dining room would make for easy gathering of dishes after meals, and could act as a buffet surface for larger groups. Also, you'd gain a couple more usable feet along the solid, windowless right wall, which would be nice to house your tall items like an oven/micro cabinet and the fridge.

buehl's plan looks good. Just one question--where would you keep dishes? It doesn't look like there's a handy place to put them, near where you'd be unloading the dishwasher.

And one comment--I spent eight years in this house with my dishwasher on the right of my sink. I had it put there when the house was built, thinking that made the most sense because I'm right handed. When we remodeled, the dishwasher really needed to be moved to the left of the sink. I was quite surprised to find that I like it much better on the left. A big part of why I like the change is that, based on where my dish cabinet is located, it works better when I'm putting clean dishes away. It also matters somewhat when I'm loading the dishwasher. I don't rinse most things, but when I do, the right hand mans the faucet while the left holds the dish and puts it in the dishwasher. Just my preference, but keep in mind that, although it seems to be one of the minor decisions, everything you do can make a difference in the function of your room.

Here's another quick and dirty layout, thisone with the penninsula and island swapped. It would have to be examined for scale though, especially with regard to the corner pantry and the range wall.

Doing a counterheight peninsula between the diningroom and kitchen give alot of flexibility. The drawers there could store dishes conveniently located near both the DW and dining room. It could be used as a buffet. If you wanted to use it as a bake center, you could place the second oven undercounter there. Where it meats the wall there could be a nice place for the coffee pot.

You could put another island seat on the dining side of the island. Also leaving the kitchen more open to the great room is nice for when you want to pop into the kitchen and get a drink or snack during a movie, or when you just want to get a quick peek at how dinner's doing in the oven.

Sorry for all the grammar and spelling mistakes! Somehow I forget to proofread.

More great ideas, thanks!

I really like the idea of having a counter between the kitchen and dining area for all the reasons stated, but given a choice between my kitchen opening to the dining area or great room I'd rather it open to the dining area. Plus, unless I expand the size of the kitchen the island would only be 3 ft wide and couldn't support two stools on the end anyway.

I think we're all in agreement on the sink and cooktop/range. It's the refrigerator that's the biggest obstacle. And there are a couple of options for the pantry. Once those are settled, the smaller appliances should be easier.

I tend to agree that I dont really want the refrigerator on the window wall unless its a very nicely integrated, almost hidden one.

BTW I dont care what side of the sink the DW is, Im more concerned that it be close to where the dishes are stored.

I quickly drew up a couple of options. Thoughts?

i like the pantry on the great room side gives you a much longer run of countertop, so i would pick your 2nd diagram

love how feedback can really help us all!

I like #2 too, but would still like to see the fridge on the DR side of the Kitchen. You don't need a truly integrated fridge to make it look built in though. Many people on this forum have just built it in with side panels and the fridges look beautiful.
I like #2 because it give you a nice long counter run and keeps the pantry out of the work triangle. You could also move the fridge down the sink wall just a little and it would not interfere with you Dr or the travel lanes in the space. Having the fridge on that wall also allows for access to drinks and food from the table and the outside without interfering with your work area. It just seems like a more work-like space. It also keeps the ovens from seeming to interrupt the flow on the range wall and it eliminates some dead corners and allows you to need only one corner cabinet in the whole huge kitchen.

That one does provide more continuous workspace.

I'm starting to get used to the idea of the refrigerator on the sink wall.

Thanks guys! I've added one more option to look at: