does the slider have to be in the kitchen? Can it be in the LR?

the size of your space is somewhat similar to mine. My kitchen is 18 X 13.5 plus a PR in the same spot you have yours planned. My sink and toilet are both on the right side wall. My PR is 5' wide X 6.5' long and I always wished it wasn't so big. Wasted space.

These are great insights...thank you everyone! Let's see if I can answer them:
We have 2 kids and I don't mind them or their friends running through kitchen to get to bathroom. This is what they do now and it's fine. Would I prefer something different? In a perfect world where I won the lottery - yes! But that's a tradeoff I'm willing to make.

1) I should remove the "mudroom" description since it really isn't a mudroom at all, just a hallway to the bathroom. It started out as a mudroom but we re-prioritized.
2) The large existing windows on the side face directly -and I mean directly (the house is very close) -into the neighbors full wall of windows. I would like to get rid of them entirely since it doesn't make sense to have windows but keep the blinds closed on them all the time. But one window lines up directly with a doorway into the kitchen so we'll probably keep them or replace them with something smaller (they're huge).
3)I agree if we try to shrink powder room we could find more countertop space in kit. Just wasn't sure if that would make that little "hallway" too small.
4)We tried putting powder room where banquette/table are now but then couldn't get a good layout for kitchen table, island, etc. Plus that means reworking all of the plumbing, including waste pipes ,etc and we were hoping to avoid that for cost reasons.

dianolo -please elaborate about "slider tracks"...not sure what you mean but I'm curious! Do they just get super dirty and impossible to clean?

Otherwise I like the ideas of shrinking powder room as much as possible, moving toilet etc. I hadn't thought of taking space from between island and stove to give more room on the other side of the island. Good idea!
And maybe we should try to build a pantry cabinet with an angled corner,if that makes sense, rather than a 90 degree corner, as you enter from DR, to avoid that "pinchpoint."
Thank you!

I really like your kitchen design and I love the banquette! Remember, the table can slide 'south' a bit, because (like in a booth) the table can be a few inches over the banquette.

Would there be room to utilize some of that mudroom space for the desk and pantry...can you make that window any smaller? A three foot window would give you room for the desk under it (with chair pushed under, when not being used) a broom closet/linen next to the bath and pantry area in the corner.

If you could, what would you think of a small snack area, between the pantry area and the door to the dining room? Maybe a small prep sink, microwave and undercounter fridge, very close to the pantry? This would give you a place for the kids to get their snacks, without being in your prep area...just an idea :)

Question: If you have a DR plus an island with seating, do you really need a table in the kitchen? You could use the island for snacks, breakfast, and quick meals and the DR for all family meals.

Alternately, if you keep the table, do you really need seating at the island since they're right on top of each other?

We eliminated a kitchen table b/c the space was just too small once our children hit the pre-teen years. We now eat all our meals in the DR and like how much room we have and the nice feel it has. I think the kids are even better-behaved (that could just be their age, though). [Bonus: we're not staring at dirty dishes & pots & pans while eating.]

If you eliminated the table you could have more space and not such a cramped kitchen.

Just something to think about!

Oh, and I recommend moving the DW to the other side of the sink to get it out of the Prep and Cooking Zones. I would put a trash pullout where the DW is now. That would be an ideal location...next to the Cleanup Zone, in the Prep Zone, and next to the Cooking Zone. It will be used most while prepping & cooking.

(Prep Zones, btw, usually end up next to a water source and near the range/cooktop. In your case, the only water source is against the wall. You may plan to use the island, but if you need water to clean/rinse veggies & fruit, to peel potatoes, etc., you will need to work next to the sink.)

Your island overhang, btw, will only be about 10.5"...much too shallow considering the NKBA recommends a minimum of 15".

It also looks like your aisles are measured cabinet-to-cabinet, not counter-to-counter. If that's the case, then your aisles are 3" narrower than you have on your plan. Counters overhang cabinets by approx 1.5". That means 1.5" on the wall run and 1.5" on the island...a total of 3" less.

Additionally, ranges stick out 1" to 3" beyond counters...so now you also need to subtract that additional inch or two (or three) from the aisle in front of the range.

Is the 5' window over the sink there already? Could it be changed/moved?

Powder Room: Our PR is 4'6" x 4'6" and it is small. I sometimes wish it were a bit bigger...even 6" in each direction. However, it does work at that size. (We have the sink & toilet along the back wall and a 24" door that opens into the PR in front of the sink.)

Lastly, one thing to remember: Children grow up very, very quickly, so don't plan anything around small children! Once they hit those double-digit ages (and sometimes even earlier), they will be closing on adult size and will need space accordingly...ditto for their friends!

You asked about the counter space. Yes, you technically have enough room on either side of the sink. Just. Even with another foot or two, it's bare. What your current plan has, however, is a small kitchen plunked down in a large space. By trying to have everything, especially with all those doors, I think you're shortchanging yourself in the end.

Then there are the wasted spaces. You have a lot of floor dedicated to the LR door and deck slider. You have a massive amount of space devoted to a vestibule to the powder room, and you're making your guests walk through the kitchen to get to the powder room.

Then you have three seating areas, none of them big enough for the 6 you want to sit.

It's very late, so I'm not going to draw it out now, but you were right the correct place for the powder room is between the LR and DR doors. You could make it interesting by making a curved wall, and you could make the two doors between toilet and kitchen by putting a door between that and the sink, using pocket doors so you won't need swing room. That way, you'll also have a hand washing sink right there for people coming in from the garden, without disturbing the kitchen sink worker(s).

With that there, and your L moved over to the right hand wall, you'd have room for a large island. If you have seating for two on the left end, and four along the back, you and have the same seating arrangement as you would on the banquette without needing it to do double duty. If you want a table height eating area, you can have a small island with a table pushed against it, or a built in table on the end, perhaps rounded to seat more people and use more of the open floor area. The desk can go up against the powder room wall, and have the whole length from the basement door on out for the pantry cabinets.

Re the windows on the right of page wall, you can keep the window on the outside as faux, if I'm understanding that bit about lining up. You can also do backsplash casements along that wall instead of the huge window that's there. Those let in light but since they're below eye level the view doesn't matter so much. You can also put window boxes and some trailing greenery to make the prospect better. Or you could put glass shelves or even glass cabinets right across the window, and make the area useful, yet still let in the light.

Do you have a particular place where the vent hood must be?

can you post a plan of your entire 1st floor? Is the entry south of the banquette, where you have the door to the basement showing?

can the sliders go in the LR? Can the opening to the LR move south if needed?

cmm

Before you "lose" the 'mudroom' - do you have a mudroom elsewhere? - With a family of 4, I would strongly suggest not losing a mudroom/area - even if it is not ideally located. It will end up re-purposing in another area of your home, likely not one you desire. I have a tiny mud area that is right near back door with the tiniest of powder rooms - While small, they are the most utilized areas of our home.

- I'm looking at traffic patterns/flow in your present design, I think Buehl pointed out it is "trafficky"
Which is the most utilized entry to your home - from outside Basement/garage? and from inside? What does the rest of the 1st floor floorplan look like?

- I think Beuhl may have an idea with consideration of losing the kitchen table, this will afford more opportunity for a more functional design & help keep some traffic flow outside work area. Your DR is well located, and you could even increase size & move your island. Her point about design with little children - (that grow big quickly) is well taken. Why do you need seating for 6? + Island seating, + DR seating, Do you utilize the DR? You could make the casement opening larger (? current dimensions) -It seems like a lot of specifications for Kitchen seating, that may end up not being utilized?

- What is the orientation of North/South - light in the layout?

- How do you plan to vent the range - it's not on exterior wall so will need add'l duct work to get it over and out.

- Are there upper cabs in your design?

Everyone's comments were so insightful and now I don't know where to go from here!

In current plan, does anyone see a benefit in moving R/F from back wall to where "pantry" is?

We do need a door in the kitchen to deck but it doesn't have to be a slider...we're open to a french door if it allows us more counter space.

First, yes we absolutely want seating at a table in the kitchen for several reasons. We like to have friends over with their kids and if adults sit in the dining room there's no place for the kids to eat (could be 6 adults and 8 kids). Our house (1930 colonial) isn't small so it doesn't seem right that we can't include an eating area in the kitchen.
Also we often have family from out of town and I'd like to be able to eat some meals in the kitchen instead of our more formal DR. I just hate having to put table pads and a tablecoth (because our table is soft wood) down in the DR to eat a piece of toast. So the kitchen table in the kitchen is one of the only non-negotiables and the main reason we're renovating it.

The architect thought the powder room was best there but I'll have to ask him to rethink that.

We're planning on some upper cabs with glass front along sink wall and a few on either side of stove but hoping to get some decent storage in the island and in a pantry.

I was in a friend's kitchen and measured the everything; she has 36" clearance around the island and it was comfortable to me. Also lots of windows so it had an open feeling, rather than feeling tight with walls full of upper and lower cabs.

Right now main entry into house is through basement door for the kids and me (because we park the car in the garage). Everyone else, including guests, come through front door.

I tried using the right side wall for a long wall of cabinets but it was so far away from the LR; it seemed like we'd be doing a lot of walking back and forth. I think I'd prefer a more efficient work space but still not sure! Our DR is fairly formal. To use it more we'd have to get all new furniture (ugh!). But that is an idea we'll have to consider!
Thank you for all these great points. It will take me some time to work through them!

OK..so just read that the doorway to LR can't move.

We enter our house thru the basement as well, and that is where(in an ideal world) everyone drops there sneakers, boots, coats, etc. Can you/should you make your mudroom down in the basement? Do you really want people walking thru the kitchen to drop their stuff? We also have hooks at the top of the basement stairs where we can hang coats that don't get left in the basement.

I'm not an expert, but it seems you have plenty of room, especially if you change the sliding door to a single french door...and move the fridge over a few feet.

If possible, moving the sink and window over to the center, would give you more counter space on each side, and center the window more with the island...giving a better view out the window, from the stools and the dining entrance.

The stools and seating area seem fine to me. The banquette gives you much needed seating...and extra storage.

To malhgold - yes our basement is already a makeshift mudroom and I'm totally happy with keeping it there for the reasons you mentioned! Let the kids leave muddy, wet shoes downstairs where no one else sees them. Plus we have 2 hall closets in the foyer so actually have plenty of coat/hat/shoe storage.

On my layout I think if we rework that "mudroom" space to be a better use of storage for kitchen items, not shoes etc, then that space won't feel so wasted to me.

To lavender lass:I agree with the comment about sink/window.

Your comment as well as malhgold's comment, couldn't have come at a better time! I was feeling very discouraged. The powder room has to stay in that general location so we have to work with what we have. I'm trying to focus on "good enough" for this kitchen and remember that we don't need or even want an enormous space, just a well-designed, efficient, pretty space for my family to hang out in.

Thank you for your input.

Your layout is one of my favorites...I've always liked L-shape kitchens with an island or work table. Of course, that's my plan, too :)

Banquettes are so cozy and inviting...and provide such great storage! It's great for eating, snacks, homework, and plenty of room for the kids...and all their friends. (LOL)

If your desire is to keep the powder room where it is for cost reasons (don't have to move plumbing), then I would flip the door so that it is on the right side of that hallway / mudroom wall. That way it opens with a view toward the sink rather than the toilet. Then I'd make sure that you put double insulation (or some other sound-proofing material) in the wall between the powder room and the kitchen so that you minimize noise.

Then I'd move your desk into that little hallway (so it's back to back with the stove wall.) That lets you use the whole bottom right corner for pantry cabinets and it serves to hide the desk from view of the kitchen. (Desks tend to be clutter magnets.)

These suggestions are if you keep your PR where it is. If you move it, then you have lots of other options.

If you *were* willing to move the powder room, and I know you may not be re. cost, you'd have a lot more options for the kitchen and comfortable 6-person seating.

Here is one quick mockup that would give you 6-person table seating, 3-person island seating, and you could extend your basement entry slightly so that the powder doesn't come right into the kitchen. (On the wall beside the landing entry door you could put a couple of coat hooks, or a wall-mounted organizer for keys, mail, cell phones, etc.).

I kept your appliances as you had them and didn't fuss with the side runs, since the point is just to show the space possibilities if you could reclaim that wasted 5x9 mudroom area in the other layout. In this case you'd have to remove the side window re. the range.

Oh, one last thing -- in this mockup is shows a garden door, but that clearly won't work since you don't have enough wall before the living room entry. So I'd do sliders with the opening side at the left ... I just didn't take the time to change the drawing here.

Good luck and have fun with your new kitchen whatever you decide!

Taggie- Nice plan, but I miss the banquette :)

Oops, hit the wrong button. I wanted to add that I like cmm's powder room where it is. This is a nice option, but it creates another door to work around, when bringing things up from the basement (like groceries) since the garage is down there.

taggie - wow! can't believe you spent the time to lay this all out. Thank you! We considered an option that had the table in the same spot as you put it but I thought it might be frustrating to walk around the table from the LR. (And also on that side of the house are a den and screened in porch - so most traffic coming through that doorway). It is definitely something to look at again though!

chicagoans - good idea about putting the desk in that spot...it does make sense. With a large pantry I doubt we'll have any storage issues.

lavender lass - I also like the banquette idea. And figure a bunch of kids could squeeze in with even a smaller table if need be. It does add some character to a room, not to mention saving space.

I had forgotten that I was warned about the ups/downs of planning a kitchen renovation ;)

Slider tracks are the floor part of sliding doors where the door fits in at the bottom. They are a PIA to keep clean with the grooves and channels. I dislike sliders for that and other reasons. A single french door with a sidelight could work for you.

I agree with Buehl about switching the DW to the other side of the sink. You will be prepping b/w sink and range, and I wouldn't want to do that over a DW. (Been there, done that. Don't like it.)

I like Taggie's plan too. Good powder room. No awkward mudroomish space. Bigger kitchen. Better flow. If you want storage in the island (which I assume you do), I'd make it wider to get cabs and the appropriate amount of overhange. Also, I might slide the range a bit "down" to get a bit more prep space b/w it and the sink. Plus it centers the range a bit more. I'm not one who must have symmetry, but when you can easily get it, why not?

I had a banquette pre-reno and am planning on working another one in. I love them like Lavender does.

You could still build a banquette in Taggie's plan. It would just be against the back wall and that would get the table out of your way.

You could, but it would be just a bench against the wall, and not an "L" shape. The bench would have to be longer than the table to allow for entry space on the fridge end. I'm wondering if the door swing would interfere with the seat on the left end. And the seat on the right end would be difficult with the fridge. It certainly could be done though.

If you did that, you could straighten out that diagonal wall on the powder/mud rooms or keep it like that and put a piece of furniture or built-ins in that space.

The banquette bench change to Taggie's plan, maybe with a bench on the other side, would help keep the table out of the LR door flow. Having the PR closer to the LR and DR is great.

I'll repeat what Buehl said, because it's very important when planning a kitchen: Kids grow up fast! All those little 8-year-olds turn into ravenous sprawls of arms and legs that each seem to take up the space of three!

In Taggie's plan you can also shorten the island and add back your bank of pantry cabinets. Some hooks in the vestibule between the basement stairs and PR would give a place to hang backpacks or whatever on the way in, for those making pitstops (unless you have a bathroom in the basement?). Make the door into the kitchen a pocket door that is mostly open, and you don't have the two doors problem that Lavender Lass mentioned.

I'm arguing for it, because this plan makes so much more sense. Things don't quite work in your original plan. They almost work enough that you've been talking yourself into it, but they don't actually work the way you want them to.

We cross-posted when I was writing the first post so I didn't see what you wrote. The table in Taggie's plan wouldn't be in the way. If you put a bench against the wall, it would be out of traffic even more.

I like what Plllog suggested about the vestibule b/w basement and kitchen. I'm creating an area just like that in our reno. Putting a wall up around the door from the garage into the house (we use that entrance daily) to put up coat hooks and a place to dump shoes and backpacks. You will enter the door, hang stuff on the right and then head through a pocket door straight ahead into the house.

I really like Taggie's plan. It feels like a space that was intentional, instead of a remodeled area where rooms were stuck given lots of limitations like your plan feels to me. If that makes sense.....

Maybe I'm missing something (it wouldn't be the first time) but there seems to be plenty of room for the banquette in cmm's plan. The table is actually drawn to be 3' x 5'6", which I think is bigger than marked (3' x 5')...and there's no overhang with the seating. Even with 2' deep banquette spaces, the table usually hangs over a bit, or people would have to lean far forward to reach their food.

I think the powder room is more private, around the corner, than on the way to the basement, personally. I think that flipping the sink and toilet would be nice (or the door location, if that's not possible) as has already been suggested.

If the island is not working, could it be slightly smaller, to allow more space for the countertops? Maybe 3'6" (with overhang) x 5'? Two stools should still fit in the space. If the pantry area were a bit more shallow (or even take off a foot or so) I don't think there would be any problem with your aisles :)

Here is a bad phone picture of an idea I had. It keeps the bathroom in the same place. It narrows it down partially

It has room for a full table for six which means if you had a leaf you could squeeze in more. I Don't love the lack of symmetry in the elevations, but the idea could give you a jumping off point to other layouts. The clearances are 42" at the front of the fridge (A CD drawn at 30" deep and from the front of the range), with 48" at the front of the island.

{{gwi:1606543}}

Ooh that looks bad. From L to R 15" base, 24" DW, 36" sink base, 30" base, 30" range" , 15" base 12" part of corner susan, which turns corner. Good spot to tuck MW or countertop appliances. 36" x 60" island, 12" bank of storage (could be 15") with 18"D desk area.

Palimpsest- That's a nice plan! I like the powder room and interesting idea for the fridge placement. It looks built in. Could the prep sink be moved over towards the range, to give you more landing space from the fridge...and room for some stools?

The corner for microwave and small appliances is very nice. There's room for a table, but also could still use the banquette.

Cmm is going to have a lot of ideas to choose from! :)

So much to think about!

I printed out taggie's plan and drew it with a banquette. If banquette is 2' deep and table is 3' deep, it still seems like you have to walk around the kitchen table when you enter from the LR. I feel like I'm being dense. Could someone explain?

palimpsest- still trying to print out a good copy of that drawing but looks interesting!

And again, thank you all for your suggestions.

I don't think the table would be in the way as the inclination would be to follow the curve of the wall when walking through the aisle. There's a bit of a S curve for the path, but there's also a 90" turn around the banquette in the first layout's path ... assuming you don't want people walking from the living room to the powder room via the kitchen work aisles.

That said, I love palimpest's idea if you're keeping plumbing near where it is today.

You could maybe pull the fridge uppers/gable and the corner side cab out to 30" deep which, if combined with a narrow depth pedestal sink, might leave you room for a 6 to 9" deep pantry cabinet on the kitchen side. That would give you a smooth looking cabinet run over the full length of the L. And I'd change the powder room door to swing outwards for ease of shutting the door once inside.

I will try to post a better picture tomorrow and by then may have come up with a tweak or two.

You could probably do a very small sink and tuck a 12" deep set of shelves on the kitchen side of the recess, but a tiny sink may not work well with kids, or be practical generally.

I think my plan would work with a banquette, too, I just wanted to show it with a large conventional table.

Well, yes, in Taggie's plan you'd have to skirt the table area rather than bowling straight through it, but there's a clear walking path there, which is improved with the banquette against the wall.

Is there something you're not telling us? Someone in a wheel chair perhaps? Because I'm pretty sure it would be fine with a walker.

I also like Palimpsest's plan, though I still think putting the PR in that far corner is a mistake. This plan gives you the path and the table space you want.

Lavender, the trouble with the original banquette is there is only room for four adults to sit, and one of them is on the corner. There's also only room for four place settings on that size table.

Taggie's plan is interesting, but keep in mind that it does not include any overhang for island seating...it's just a set of cabinets with 1.5" overhang all around with stools placed next to it. That will not be comfortable seating! Add in the overhang (15" is highly recommended) and then see how much room you have around the island.

One thing...if the path b/w the range & island isn't used much except for prepping & cooking (i.e., no through-traffic), it could be narrowed down to 39" or so. That would help with the aisle on the other side (b/w the wall & island).

Also, be sure you have at least a 36" aisle behind the seat on the "bottom" of the island.

Check to be sure Taggie has the doors in the correct places...the basement doorway in your plan "ends" approx 11' from the left wall while Taggie's ends at approx 10'6" if you "count boxes & partial boxes") That may be OK, but I just wanted you to check.

A note about a 36" wide table...only small children can sit at a 36" deep table if you have people on both sides...I know b/c that's what we had in our old kitchen (b/c that's the only size that would fit in our kitchen). You need at least 39", 42" is even better (that's what we have now and while there's still the occasional "his leg is touching my leg" or "she's kicking me" from the now-teens, it's generally OK.) Oh, it's not just leg room underneath, it's also room on the table for serving dishes.

As to width, people need at least 24" of linear space...so 48" wide will only fit 2 people side-by-side, with no one on the ends. To have someone on the ends, you need at least another 12" on each end. So, a 6' wide table can comfortably seat 6 people...2 on each long side and 1 on each end:
12" + 24" + 24" + 12" = 72"
(Some designers are now starting to say you need 30" of linear space per person, but I haven't noticed that.)

I can't tell for certain what's to the right of the range and 18" cabinet...are they pantry cabinets? If so, I would consider making that 18" cabinet at least 24" for adequate workspace around the range.

About the corner...IMO, blind corner cabinets are a poor use of space, even with pullout inserts. I know that some people here like them, but even my KD who makes more $$$ on these inserts vetoed one. She said she has had so many complaints from clients with them that she always strongly discourages them. The "hardware" of the inserts doesn't last and if anything falls off you have to crawl inside to retrieve the item b/f you can close it. Corner susans, OTOH, are now usually designed so the back & side walls follow the contour of the shelves so there's no room for anything to fall off and the "hardware" lasts forever (our lazy susan was 13 years old when we demo'd our old kitchen and it was the only thing that worked as smoothly and as well on that day as the day it was installed!) Additionally, things are easily accessed in a susan...everything is right up in front...just rotate and it's right in front of you!

As to Palimpsest's PR, I've seen those and while they're not ideal, they do work. Just make sure the alcove is wide enough to fit a person standing there...including their elbows. It's definitely an option to consider when space is at a premium.

Here is a better picture of yesterdays drawing: I don't like the same things about it today
{{gwi:1606545}}

And today's: Six inches added to powder room and shallower sink alcove pulls sink forward, allows very shallow shelves in kitchen rather than a blank wall. Island is smaller, Elevations more balanced to me, but range is less protected than in the first variation. Still works with a Big table, could work with a banquette I think. More room for coat hooks behind the fridge wall.
{{gwi:1606547}}

I like Palimpsest's layout in his Tue, Jan 4, 11 at 17:44 post the best. It...
Keeps the Cleanup Zone out of the Prep & Cooking Zones
Keeps the Prep & Cooking Zones together and near the refrigerator, which leads to...
No zone-crossing while prepping and cooking
Range is better protected
Prepping can take place in at least 3 locations:
(1) Primary Prep Zone: Island b/c it's close to both the range & refrigerator and it has a prep sink (i.e., water!)

(2) Between the cleanup sink and range b/c it's near the range and a water source (secondary Prep Zone) and no DW in the way

(3) Between the range and corner (tertiary Prep Zone). No water, but near the refrigerator & range

(4) In the Cleanup Zone (as a last resort only) b/c it's near a water source (but far from the refrigerator & range and over the DW)

Just something to think about with Palimpsest's plan that would be a concern of mine. It's not about how the kitchen would function, but for my family, the refrigerator and pantry cabs would be far from the "living" areas of your house that are on the other side of the kitchen. Try to imagine one of your kids being in the family room or someone in the LR and wanting something to drink and a snack. It appears that the easiest path to the frig could be past the range and sink and a long walk. I'm not saying it's a deal breaker, but something to think about.

I don't even know where to begin!

I am printing out palimpsest's new plan to really dig into it. Thank you for taking the time to draw out the plan. I like the space, efficient use of powder room, huge storage capacity, etc.

My one concern is that there's not a lot of storage immediately around the cooking and prep zones so most likely we would be walking to the pantry/storage area. I've seen several kitchens in magazines lately where people have stored a lot of their "stuff" in out of the way butler's pantries so maybe that's the new trend. I guess it's all a personal choice.

malhgold- I had the same thought about distance. On the other side of our LR is a den. So from the den to get a cold drink is one long walk!

I thought the same thing, there are some shortcomings. Maybe this is a place for an undercounter fridge under the eating side of the island.

However, considering that my mom went down to the springhouse, banged on the bell on the door to scare any snakes or rats away, and then opened the door to get a cold drink other than water out of the spigot, maybe a little bit of an extra walk isnt too bad.

I am only 48 and even I knew people whose fridges were on the closed in porch or their drinks and snacks were in an icebox in the garage or basement because the kitchen one was too small....all of this "convenience" is contributing to obesity on more than one level.

You are not going to get the "perfect" kitchen. It's extremely rare that anyone gets one...even with new build. With remodeling, it's even rarer.

Then, add constraints to the space (e.g., must have a table, must have an island, sink must be on back wall, etc.) and the chances of getting a "perfect" layout are even less likely.

So, as with the vast majority of kitchen remodels, compromises will have to be made. What's more important...a functional kitchen with good workflow and Zones or having a refrigerator close to the LR? Personally, I'd rather have it near the DR and kitchen table since that's where you'll be getting condiments, milk, etc. from on a more regular basis than the occasional snacker will be in the refrigerator. With the prep sink in the island where it is, people will be more likely to go around the island to get to the water than go through the working part of the kitchen.

When you have the refrigerator on the exterior wall near the LR, you now have the people prepping and cooking criss-crossing through the Cleanup Zone and dodging an open DW or trying to jockey around someone working at the cleanup sink. I'd rather tell people to go around the island than have to be constantly zone-crossing.

You say "...there's not a lot of storage immediately around the cooking and prep zones...", but in Palimpsest's first layout there's quite a bit of storage around both and in the island directly across.

The second layout, OTOH, has many of the major disadvantages I listed previously...zone crossing, DW dodging, unprotected range, lack of storage in the Prep & Cooking Zones (your comment), etc.

Ask yourself this...who will be doing more in the kitchen...those who are prepping and cooking or those who come in for a snack?

In the end, this is your kitchen and you can (and should) do as you like. But please read and think about this before you make your final decision. If you do, you will be making an informed decision and will have weighed the pros & cons of each layout. You will know going forward the pluses and minuses of your decision(s) and will not later say, "if only I had known" or "if only someone had told me"...you'll already know.

Good luck!

I'm back with a new sketch, after agonizing over the pros/cons of every other layout that was suggested this past wk.

I have not included cabinet placement on this sketch since we're still working with the layout.
On sketch 1 square = 1 foot.

My main concern now is whether having the island in the 'path' between dining room and sink is not such a great design decision.

Keep in mind there doesn't seem to be a perfect layout for our space, for what we want to achieve. I THINK this is a compromise we're willing to make. But I'd like to hear from those of you with an island that obstructs a direct walkway to your sink - do you hate it? or is it not a big deal?

We only use the dining room about 2x/month. But when you come into our house through the front door, you have to come through that dining room doorway to get to the kitchen. My husband uses this entrance every day. Any guests would use this entrance. The kids and I come through the basement door (since garage is under the house). Obviously my husband won't come in the front door and make a beeline for the kitchen sink (more likely he'll drop his stuff at the desk).

From the LR and other living areas of the house (which are on the other side of the living room), I think the path to sink/stove, etc. is fine.

Also we could widen the DR doorway (to the right) by 6-12 inches, and just reconfigure the wall with the R/F a bit. Would that make a significant difference in the feeling of the space (ie. less need for a sudden turn to get around island to the sink).

Thanks for all insight.

Here is a link that might be useful:

cmm

I've been following this thread with interest. Glad you are diligently working to get the most functional plan. While right now, it seems a rather tedious task - You will be thankful that you took the time in this phase.

This looks a lot like your original plan?

From my perspective I am more concerned about the fridge being such a distance from the sink & lacking a counterspace.

Can you do version of Palimpsest 1/4 17:44 plan - and instead of the table have a banquette? - The range would be vented direct to exterior & fridge would be better located.

The island has a barrier issue in all the plans doesn't it?

Jejvtr,
I'm laughing at your comment because, yes, this plan does look quite similar to the original with a few changes:
Gave up the sliding doors.
Moved the R/F so there's a longer run of counter space on back wall
Addition of small under-counter beverage r/f to back wall.
Originally I was concerned that continuous counter space was limited. It's much improved now.

On paper, it looks like the R/F is far from the sink but they are that distance apart now and in reality it's not far.

My husband wanted to keep the bathroom size as is. I was at a friend's with almost identical measurements and it was kind of tight.

I'm still tossing around the idea of putting the R/F on the back wall again. I figure we can tweak that when we really dig into the planning. But at this point we want to make sure the island will work where it is, especially in relation to the sink.

Thank you for your comments.

We have just put in an L-shaped banquette and spent the weekend mocking up table sizes in front of it, and I thought I might share our findings. I worry that you might find the 36" round table in your latest drawing too small for a few people to use comfortably.

The long side of our L is 6', and the short side is, I think, 4 1/2', both measured along the back to the corner. We have the added constraint of the end of the long bench ending at a wall that sticks out a few inches past the seat, so getting in is a bit tighter than if the end were open. We're planning for seating for two on the long side, one on the short side, and one stool tucked under the table when not in use. (Two stools might fit at the table, but would interfere with our walkway when someone's sitting there.)

A round table was the easiest for us to slide around onto the benches, by far. A pedestal instead of legs is a must. A 40-42" round table will fit our bench the best. The 36" round was easier yet to get past, but the two people sitting on the same side had to reach too far to the tabletop, at an odd angle. The 36" top wouldn't hold place settings for four without crowding.

Hope this helps.

mnerg-
Thank you for insight on table size. Originally we planned on a 40"x60" rectangle but it seemed to interfere with walkways. I think you're right about the 36" - just doesn't work well at a banquette if you want to seat at least 4. We use that now for 4 of us, but we're not at a banquette.
So you find the 6' x 4 1/2' banquette is just right for a 42" round table? Did you try/consider an oval shape?
Thank you!

If you put the range at the corner on the right wall in your latest plan, you would have two feet of space on its left (the other counter run), range and then counter space on the right and could probably put the fridge at the end. It would require a blind base pullout going into the corner on the sink run of cabinets, but other than limited access to teh corner it could work.

An oval didn't work for us because it was too tight to get into, with the long side of our bench being closed off by a bit of wall at the end. With your benches open on both ends you'd probably be just fine.

We did try a rectangle with rounded corners, and 40"x32" was a nice fit, but since it would have to be custom built, especially on a pedestal, so we decided to focus on round in a standard size.

All the best, from one owner of a 25" long kitchen to another!

Just wondering if a corner , or island cooktop would give you a more functional kitchen ... pampliset has previously mentioned the corner option ...

I had a very similar kitchen/breakfast arrangement in a previous house , with the cooktop in the island ... it worked really well :-)

Summerfielddesigns-
That's definitely an interesting idea. I like how it opens up space to do a double oven if we wanted to.

I hadn't thought of putting the R/F there, but you and a some others suggested it today and I think that's another good idea.

Since you added the prep sink..what's everyone's opinion on prep sinks? I thought our island was too small for one. Is it just something that's a nice extra to have but not a necessity? How big should they be to be useful?

Mnerg - I'd love to see pics of your kitchen if you have any.

Thank you!

You said you only use your dining room 2x month. What a waste of space. I don't know where it is in relation to the rest of the plan - but have you thought about opening it up to the "kitchen area". Why not use all your space 24/7/365? Just in my personal opinion - the formal separate dining room is becoming extinct these days. Would you consider doing that? If so - maybe you can do a rough sketch of what's "below" the kitchen on your plans.

With regard to the plan above - I'd switch places for the refrigerator and and the ovens. You don't want to take stuff out of the ovens - and put it on your desk :). Also - there isn't enough space around the island. Lay out a corridor 3'1" - and try to walk in it. I personally would have permanently bruised sides in a layout like this. And if you or a family member or a friend ever has to use a wheel chair - that narrow corridor is totally handicap-unfriendly. I would get rid of the island. Robyn

Entire hallways in residential construction are commonly 36". In that last kitchen it does create a pinch point, sure, but that has been one of the discussions.

There is nothing at all handicap accessible about that kitchen in any way shape or form, as there is not in standard residential construction in the US currently: A wheelchair could get into the kitchen only through the LR door anyway (unless it was a pediatric chair), so accessibility once in the kitchen is a moot point.

Shortrobyn-thank you for your comments. You are not the first to comment about wheelchair access although to be honest we wouldn't even be able to get into the house in a wheelchair, let alone the kitchen, so we will only hope not to have to deal with that.

The island does have 42" clearance on all sides. I thought that was sufficient.

Does anyone think there is room for a prep sink in a 3' x 5' island ??
Regarding the DR: our house was built in 1930 and I think it's better to keep a traditional floor plan, rather than eliminating the dining room.

The one space concern I have is between the DR doorway and the island. Everyone is telling me that 5' is sufficient and we will have about 5'6", but it is still hard to visualize.