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artemis78

Inset for looks v. frameless for space: which to choose at same $

artemis78
14 years ago

From the beginning of our remodel process, we'd planned to base our cabinets on an inspiration photo I found, which mixed frameless lowers with face-frame inset uppers for a period look. We're going for an Arts & Crafts feel, but since we have a small kitchen and a budget that's barely out of Ikea territory, I could rationalize that approach based on the cost and space savings and was pretty content with it.

Fast forward to this week, when I started getting estimates back, and discovered that one of the small cabinet shops we're looking at will build inset for the same price as frameless, and meets our budget. At first I was giddy since I'd assumed even just the uppers would be a huge reach---but then I realized we would need to resize many of our lower cabinets to account for the rails and stiles (e.g., our 12" pullout that was carefully sized to fit an 11.5" dog food bin suddenly becomes a 14" pullout to fit the same bin, which in turn means the drawer bank next to it shrinks, etc.) Since our layout is drawer-heavy, this amounts to a lot of space.

I've read through the old threads I could find on inset v. full overlay and know you can sometimes lose space with frameless door conflicts too, and can design around it for face-frame with enough space---but since we have a galley layout with only a couple of doors, conflicts aren't a big issue. We only have 13LF of lowers and 8LF of uppers, so space is at a premium. The lowers are drawers except for one pullout, the under-sink cabinet, and one drawer-over-door next to the range to meet code.

This has become a classic form versus function debate in our house, and I'm curious to know what those of you who have inset cabinets (or decided against them for reasons other than cost) think from a utility perspective. Do you feel you've lost much in the way of storage space? Does the aesthetic make up for that, or would you do it differently?

Thanks!

Comments (20)

  • ellabee_2016
    14 years ago

    There's another consideration besides space, and that's strength and durability. Other things being equal, framed cabinets are structurally stronger than frameless. What you plan for countertops and what you plan to store in the cabinets will have an impact on how important a consideration strength is.

    If you haven't done a thorough inventory of your kitchen equipment and supplies (including purging or banishing to remote storage things you haven't used in the last year or two), then that might be a process that could help in making this decision. It would have the side benefit of helping you plan what goes where after the remodel.

  • plllog
    14 years ago

    I agree about character, but part of the character of a house is that it changes over time.

    I'm having a real issue myself accepting the amount of storage space lost to shop made cabinets rather than framed in place. You see this whole big cabinet but there's an inch and a half lost at every door. Ugh!

    I wouldn't have any trouble with inset framed in place like real old fashioned cabinets, but inset in case goods would make me nuts.

    Sigh. My cabinets are beautiful, and I'm holding off judgment, but I have a feeling there are going to be tears when I got to put things away and have all of those cabinet sides eating up all my storage space.

    My advice: Start with what you want the interiors of your cabinets to function like and work your way out from there.

  • rhome410
    14 years ago

    My opinion: If the cabinets won't function the way you need them to, then being pretty won't make up for it, and there's nothing structurally unsound or flimsy about quality-built frameless cabinets. I have seen some wonderful Craftsman style kitchens without inset cabinets. An 'Arts and Crafts feel' can certainly be accomplished with the frameless. It's another thing if you live in an authentic Arts and Crafts home with original builtins of that style...Because I'm all for style integrity throughout the casework in a home.

  • ccoombs1
    14 years ago

    I disagree with framed cabinets being structurally stronger. ALL well made cabinets, framless or otherwise, are strong enough for what ever counter tops you want to put on there and for what ever you plan to store inside. Unless your kitchen is just really small and limited on space, let style be your guide and don't worry about the potential loss of space. But I must say....I LOVE my framless cabinets. And I have seen plenty of framless that look very classic. So it really all boils down to what look do you love?

  • cheri127
    14 years ago

    I try not to regret my inset cabinets because they are so beautiful but every time I want to store something that fit without a problem in my old frameless cabinets that now doesn't fit in the inset ones, I get annoyed. I really miss storing cereal boxes and bowls and large boxes of wraps and bags the way I used to. If I had to do it over, I'd still get inset but you do lose a lot of drawer space and we have all drawers.

    Another supporter of well made frameless cabinets. Ours were 13 years old and used and abused. They looked as good as new when we removed them and now someone else is enjoying them.

  • Circus Peanut
    14 years ago

    Artemis, I have a craftsman kitchen with insets and really love the sleek look, for what it's worth.

    Plllog, here's your chance to clarify something for me: I have to confess I'm puzzled by the "loss of space" that folks feel with inset cabinets. I don't see that anything's lost -- these are just as big on the inside as the cabinets I had with full doors. I guess you lose 3/4" width or so for inserting enormously wide flat objects - but you could just wiggle them an inch diagonally to get them in if necessary. Am I and my cabinets just weird?

    At any rate, they're a very mission-craftsmanny style, if this gives you any inspiration:

  • francoise47
    14 years ago

    Never having head inset cabinets (but considering them) I'd like to second Circuspeanut's question about the loss of usable space in an inset cabinet.

  • sombreuil_mongrel
    14 years ago

    In your case I would do inset with continuous face-frames, so it actually looked like built-in-place cabinets as would befit a bungalow home. And you get more interior space that way, with only 2" between each division, instead of the 3" if made as separate cabinet boxes.
    Casey

  • artemis78
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Thanks all---and circuspeanut, I think a Google search that turned up pictures of your beautiful kitchen was how I discovered GW in the first place months ago! It's definitely been an inspiration. :)

    As far as losing space, I find it's mainly a problem with the drawers (we have built-on-site partial overlay face frame cabinets from the 30s right now---a good case study in how framed cabinets can be not-so-well built, since these are falling apart!) The ones with doors are fine, since you just reach in and tuck whatever it is behind the frame and we're used to that. The drawers, though, are the width of the opening, so there is some space lost over frameless (though not over framed full overlay). Maybe an inch per door?

    @rhome410, we do have an Arts & Crafts house, but none of the built-ins are visible from the kitchen, so less of a concern there. (Some idiot ripped out the dining room built-in in the 60s, apparently....argh!) However, the ones that are there are painted white inset cases, some with leaded glass.

    I should also add that whatever we go with, we'll choose something sturdy so I'm not too worried about frameless v. framed on that front. Just the storage factor, really!

  • cheri127
    14 years ago

    A face frame is usually 1.5" wide whereas a frameless cabinet side is usually 3/4" so each drawer will be 1.5" narrower. Also, the frame uses 1.5" between drawers. In a 3 drawer cabinet the total loss in height is close to 3" or an inch per drawer. Depending on what you want to store, an inch can make a big difference.

  • kompy
    14 years ago

    I think the space saving with frameless is a bit overrated. Keep in mind with frameless cabinets, you have more issues with clearances, which means you'll need fillers against walls..etc. It depends on your kitchen, though.

    I've said this on here before...with framed (and inset) cabinets, you can build in a filler as part of the cabinet...and save that space (actually be able to use the space behind the filler as part of the cabinet). This is called a Wide Stile. Most semi-custom and custom manufacturers offer this....stock grade do not.

    Yes, drawers will still be a bit wider with frameless. The space you can gain with INSET is with cabinets with doors. So, it all works out in the wash....go with what you love!

  • dockside_gw
    14 years ago

    When we built our house we had face-framed cabinets and the base cabinets were/are mostly drawers. I absolutely HATE them. There is so little that I can put in the top drawers without them catching. Paid extra to have a sliding utensil tray above a regular utensil tray and it didn't fit.

    Fast forward to three years ago when we re-did our island. I had the same brand of cabinets (they are quality built) but frameless instead. The island is smaller than the previous one, but I have more drawer space.

    We're building a new house this year and frameless, at least in the base cabinets which are mostly drawers, is the only thing I will consider.

  • ellabee_2016
    14 years ago

    I hesitated before raising the issue of relative strength, both because it wasn't an answer to the specific question artemis78 asked, and because comparative comments often draw responses that seem to read more into the comment than is intended.

    I didn't criticize frameless cabinets as flimsy, recommend framed inset over frameless, or intend to imply that frameless cabinets aren't strong enough to hold up heavy countertops or drawers filled with heavy items. I said that other things being equal (i.e., quality of materials and construction), framed cabinets are stronger than frameless ones. Other things rarely are equal, I recognize.

  • kaismom
    14 years ago

    @rhome410, we do have an Arts & Crafts house, but none of the built-ins are visible from the kitchen, so less of a concern there.

    I disagree that just because the inset cabinets are not visible from the kitchen, then you can disregard what was originally there. This can be one of few things that makes your house really pull together versus having a kitchen that looks remodeled.

    Each owner has a different perspective and goals regarding their remodel. If your objective is to get the most functional kitchen, then you should go frameless. You accept that it looks remodeled. This is the by product of your decision.... I actually think the remodel can look quite spectacular if you completely diregard the style of the house and go to the other spectrum and make it totally modern and make it stand out on its own. (This is what the Europeans have been doing for years with their houses that are centuries old.)

    However, if you want to stay true to the style and the intent of the orginal house, you should really make the remodel look as if it was a "restoration" of the original house, and this means framed, inset cabinets, painted white to match the rest of the house, IMHO.

  • plllog
    14 years ago

    Circuspeanut,

    I don't have any knowledge about factory made cabinets, so bow entirely to Kompy on the question of fillers and all.

    For custom fit cabinetry, as others have said, the main space loss on framed cabinets is with drawers and pullouts. As you say, the dimensions are the same on the inside. Generally, drawers on insets are made smaller than the front panel, which is a further loss of space. And, often, depending on the hardware, the door of an inset cabinet can further crowd the opening. Sometimes one can tilt a large item to make it fit in the opening then fill out the space. Sometimes not.

    But that brings us to where I came in: Built in place, continuous cabinets offer much more space than case goods, whether they're framed or frameless, overlay, partial or inset. If you have three cabinets in a row, with walls on either side, you're losing 4.5" to the cases, plus all the little inches in between that you can't use because there's no grouping things together behind the styles. That's probably 10-15" total lost to having case goods with adjustable shelves rather than built in place.

    I chose to go with my wonderful GC, and his amazing cabinetmaker, and got a lot for it, but I'm very unhappy about all the little spaces that don't function nearly as well as built in place would. But at least I don't have any filler.

    Does this answer your question? And Artemis's?

  • artemis78
    Original Author
    14 years ago

    Incidentally, I didn't completely understand the distinction here between continuous frame and cases until today, when we were poking around a local kitchen renovation shop and saw a floor model of inset cabs with individual cases (which DH immediately honed in on to say he did NOT want!) Each box was up against another box, so there were seams between each and an effective three inches between drawers and doors vs. 1.5 inches for continuous frame. The two cab shops we're looking at would both do the latter, so a little less space lost than this manufacturer (not sure who it was, but this place carries the low-to-mid range cabinets so one of those).

  • eandhl
    14 years ago

    Custom inset cabs here. Because I was trying to make them look like they were built in place many generations ago I had them done with no toe kick. They are graduated in size and very deep. I have all lower drawers except the sink cab.

  • pharaoh
    14 years ago

    I prefer frameless for LOOKS, STRENGTH and SPACE.

  • Circus Peanut
    14 years ago

    Re. loss of space with inset: thanks all for the answers. I had gathered from a number of posts above that the inset cabinets were causing folks difficulty, which didn't compute for me. The issue of space loss in inset drawers makes more sense. My drawers are all quite wide and have fairly narrow stiles, so I don't feel I'm losing too much in my case, but I can see that happening in narrower drawer stacks. I didn't really choose this design (I got them used), but now that I have them I'm really glad they are inset for the sake of stylistic coherence (1923 bungalow). There's just something about that smooth profile that feels delicious.

    Artemis, I remember my grandmother's 1900 farm kitchen and her lower cabinetry, which was basically a long painted box with doors into it. She could slide baking sheets & those massive Midwestern cake pans all along the 10' shelf if she needed to. Huge amount of space.

    Plllog - thanks, that does clarify. Just curious: isn't your custom guy building your cabs in place? As you know we used recycled cabinets and jury-rigged everything to fit, so I don't really have any experience with either full-on custom or factory-ordered, but our carpenter friend did build the things we added (drawer stacks, end panels, dishwasher case, fridge surround etc) right in place. That isn't how it normally works with a custom carpenter? (I'm already gearing up for my next remodel in 20 years, hah.)