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uwtrpt

New kitchen layout - Help me relieve the pinch!

uwtrpt
9 years ago

My wife and I are looking to renovate our kitchen/dinette in our "forever" house. The house was built in 1981, and I think everything is original and not in a good way! In researching ideas for layouts, I stumbled across this forum. I'm hoping that the experts here can give me some ideas to make our kitchen a more efficient focal point of our house!

Right now, our family consists of my wife and me (both mid-thirties professionals), our 5 year old daughter who LOVES to help in the kitchen, and our 8 year old chocolate lab. We are also expecting a new baby (last one) in a few months.

Our work schedules during the week can be hectic, but we try to cook 2-3 times per week, with the resulting left-overs lasting us for the rest of the week. Meals are all across the spectrum; we use both our oven and range frequently. In the non-frigid months (and sometimes even in the frigid months!) we will use the grill on the patio. In the summer that can be as often as 5 times a week. During the holidays, we do a LOT of baking (mostly pies and cookies), but not much baking the rest of the year (aside from the occasional loaf of bread-machine bread).

We sit down to a family dinner 90% of the time, usually using the kitchen table in the dinette but sometimes in the formal dining room. We enjoy hosting casual get-togethers, and that lends itself to gathering in the kitchen as the meal is prepared. We haven't gotten to the homework phase yet, but envision someplace in the kitchen (the table in the dinette?) for the kids to work while we cook/clean up (and can keep an eye on them to keep on task).

Our current layout is shown in the attached picture. The major complaint we have is that the very small (30 inch) aisle between the end of the peninsula and the fridge creates an incredibly annoying pinch point. It seems like we are CONSTANTLY running into each other.

The refrigerator is 36" wide, french-door, bottom freezer, standard depth. We love the water in the door feature, but waiting to fill a glass only adds to the time that someone is blocking the pinch point. There is not enough depth on the opposite end of the existing cabinet run to put the fridge without it blocking the entryway into the dining room. While open to the idea of a counter depth fridge, I'm not thrilled about paying more for less storage.

The current range is a 30" electric stove-top/oven combo. Our current microwave is on the counter, next to the fridge. The coffee maker (a necessity!!) has lived in several places, but is currently on the counter next to the stove. We have a "junk" zone on the counter to the right of the sink, next to the outside wall that is less than ideal. This is where the phone is currently mounted as well.

For a new layout, our priorities are (in order of desire):

1) Move the fridge! (or at least eliminate the traffic jam it causes)

2) Get the microwave off the counter

3) Increase ventilation - Our current range hood is an outdoor vented, middle-of-the road Home Depot special that doesn't do a good job of capturing smoke. We constantly need to wave a towel at the smoke detector by the powder room, causing more traffic through that pinch point!

4) Make the trash/dishwasher placement more efficient - Currently our trash is in the cabinet under the sink, which is blocked by the open dishwasher. A trash/recycling pull out would be wonderful!

Nice to have, but not necessary:
- Separate wall oven (maybe double oven?) and range. I would love to have a gas range and electric oven!

- A place for the coffee maker that doesn't create traffic through the pinch point. It would make great sense where the current "junk zone" is, but then where to put the junk zone, so...

- A designated drop zone for keys, bills, etc. to eliminate the cluttered "junk" zone.

- Prefer using Lazy Susans in the corners, but if it isn't possible, at least have a larger opening for our current blind corners. Our current blind corner cabinets have lots of space with nothing in them because nothing big will fit through the tiny door!

The constraints:

- We are open to moving anything except walls and windows. We don't have enough space in the adjacent rooms to give up to the kitchen and don't want to add exterior work to the scope of the project. The one exception is the current pantry closet. I would be fine tearing that out and adding cabinetry for the pantry.

- We need an actual kitchen table in the dinette. Seating at the counter is fine (and actually is a plus) but would not replace a place to eat family meals, and we want a family table on a cleanable floor surface for the little ones (which eliminates the dining room table for every day dining).

- Function is far more important than form, but symmetry is encouraged. My eye is a little obsessive that way. I can get over it if functionality dictates, but it will be hard! :-)

Any questions or clarifications, ask away. I greatly appreciate any and all ideas you have. Thanks!!

Regards,
Rick

Comments (60)

  • christina222_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a near identical layout. Our sink is in the corner, which seems to be a big 'no' for a lot of people but works great for us. What else is in your hall other than the powder room and how big is the powder room? Our pantry is in that hall.

  • christina222_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's a photo showing the pantry in the hall.

  • madtown_2006_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I feel like I could have written this post, the layout is so similar to mine! I will be interested to see the suggestions. I had not thought to move my sink to the fridge wall.

    Good luck with your remodel!

  • uwtrpt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! Thank you all so much for the great ideas!!

    To answer some of the questions:

    We are located in the greater Milwaukee area, and today certainly lives up to the description of FRIGID! My daughter's school closed today due to morning air temps around -10 and wind-chills around -40!

    I'll work on pictures of the space, and further floor plan drawings this evening. By way of description, the house is a two-story with all of the bedrooms upstairs. While the basement is currently unfinished, that is the next project! :-) Maybe next year...

    We almost always enter the house from the garage. As a part of this project we had talked about turning the closet by the door to the patio into one of those open mud-room "locker" type setups. That will help with coats and backpacks, but still need a place for things like keys and phone chargers. I think a "command center" on the wall directly across from the garage entrance would work very well.

    Christina222, I actually found the first picture of your beautiful kitchen in a different thread here on GW, and used it to talk to my wife about the idea of a corner sink. We ultimately decided against that idea because it seemed like we would be limited to a smaller sink. What size sink/sink cabinet do you have, and how does it work for hand-washing large things like cookie sheets or pots?

    I had never considered putting the clean-up sink on the current fridge wall! Making that corner sink a smaller prep sink would certainly address the size issue! Is there any concern about standing in the walk-way while cleaning dishes? Is that going to create the same traffic pinch, even with the additional space created by the shortened peninsula?

    I also really like the idea of built-in benches for the dinette! I had never considered that before either!! That will work just fine in front of the dinette window (some thought it was a slider, sorry for the ambiguity). My only reservation with the bench along the peninsula is that it will use up the standing room in the dinette, giving people no logical place to gather while the meal is prepared. Thoughts?

    I greatly appreciate the feedback! This certainly gives us a lot more options to consider. Thank you all VERY much!!

  • rantontoo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I really like plan D with the banquette; I think it flows better with a peninsula than the other designs. I also like the placement of the one command center by the garage entry.

  • uwtrpt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As promised, here are some pictures of the kitchen as it exists now (please excuse/enjoy the artwork on the fridge!):

    Standing in the Family Room, looking toward the Dining Room:
    {{gwi:2136641}}

    Standing at the door to the garage:
    {{gwi:2136642}}

    Standing in the Dining Room, looking toward the Family Room:
    {{gwi:2136643}}

    The infamous pinch point!
    {{gwi:2136644}}

    A different view:
    {{gwi:2136645}}

    End on view (the squares on the floor are 6 inches, for reference)
    {{gwi:2136646}}

    Hope that helps get a feel for the space. I appreciate any and all ideas and feedback!

    Regards,
    Rick

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I tried out a number of ideas from above on my old 3D Home Architect, and also finally decided a version of Plan D would work best. Below are some suggestions for possible modifications--my measurements may be off a little since we don't have exact numbers for everything on the original plan.

    Continue the bench where lisa has the command center, and make it the same depth all the way to the end. That would give you several advantages:

    --Since this is your forever home, it is possible in the future that you might need to have seating in both the dining and kitchen for more people than you do now. Kids have birthday parties, get married, bring grandchildren & spouses, etc. Several times a year, I seat 8 to 10 people at both my dining and kitchen tables, which I didn't when I was younger. So if you get a rectangular trestle table with 3 leaves, you'd have seating and leg room, and could use padded folding chairs for large groups in this room.

    --The "extra" part of the long bench could be used for parking back packs, drawers underneath for mittens, hats, scarves, etc. Between the right side of the window and the end of the bench, you could have part of it finished with a back like the rest of the seat, and put hooks for coats & jackets on the rest of that wall above the bench. Above this part between the window and end that is not finished with a bench back, about 4' above the top of the bench you could put short 30" high cabinets (if you have an 8' ceiling), for grilling/summer dishware, etc.

    --This would be a great place to get the kids ready for school--a place for them to sit so you can help them on with their boots or shoes, and a place for THEIR junk. Definitely keep the existing closet for out of season coats, boots during the summer, storing boot trays when you don't need them (I'd keep the boot trays to the right of the garage door when in use), patio stuff, etc.

    Along the present fridge/pantry wall, you could put a tall cabinet pantry by the DR door, then the fridge centered exactly on the U to get maximum distance between it and the U counters, then base cabinets and upper cabinets over to the present right pantry wall--probably take out that wall and definitely take out the left wall & door). Put the MW to the right of the fridge, and to the right of that where the old pantry is, is where YOUR junk would go--junk drawers, charging station, key & mail drop, upper organizer cabinet for bills, cookbooks, etc.

    In the U, put in the 2 super Susans, put the range to the left of the left one, which would leave you about 21" for cabinets to its left if you have a 30" wide range. Keep the sink centered under the window, put the pull out trash to the right of the right super Susan, then the DW, then there should be about 12" for a base cabinet. And you have the corner over the right super Susan for your coffee stuff. Have upper cabinets wherever there is wall space.

    Hope this helps. :o)

    Anne


    Edited to add that the reason for the locations of the pantry and MW is to avoid crossing patterns and congestion. We mostly have cans & boxed goods in our pantry, which are mostly used on the range. We usually warm up leftovers from the fridge in the MW, and then go to the table to eat them.

    We also have cups in the cabinets by the MW & typical MW snacks (popcorn, hot chocolate mix, tea, etc.). Some people put their MW in a base cabinet for their kids, but they are not young/small for long. When you're older, you appreciate having it attached to the bottom of an upper cabinet and not having to bend over!

    This post was edited by jimandanne_mi on Fri, Jan 9, 15 at 8:51

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    . . . before I saw your pictures.

    Ductwork in the soffits--at least above the range. Any way to look at the basement ceiling and see what ducts and pipes might be going up the walls and maybe into the soffits? Are the upstairs bathrooms over this area, maybe with plumbing routed through the ducts?

    In our previous place, we punched holes in a couple of places in the soffit and looked with a flashlight to see what was in there. We lucked out--nothing, so we took out the soffits & put up 42" high upper cabinets. We have 9' ceilings with soffits in the house we built a few years ago, and no one would have any way of knowing that there are HVAC ducts in 3 of the soffits in the kitchen, and an HVAC duct and plumbing in the mudroom soffits. So no way either of these sets of soffits could be removed and look good, but we have 9' ceilings and were able to put in 42" high cabinets.

    Don't know if you were planning to remove the soffits to have cabinets go to the ceiling. If the only place you have a duct is over the range, it MIGHT be possible to change it a little and change the soffit to 6" high. Then you could have 36" high cabinets which we have in our lower level walkout galley kitchen and which are much nicer than 30" high cabinets. You get an extra shelf, and they look better. You could hide a 6" soffit by trimming it. Lotsa fun drywall work first!

    Baseboard heating--google "small, attractive baseboard heating under a dinette bench" and you can see some ways to do this. Some were at pinterest.com/joe_y/dining-bench-seat/

    Dog dishes--maybe construct an alcove under your junk/command cabinet?

    Anne

  • eam44
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lots of great ideas here... I chose not to move the clean up sink to the back wall because I didn't want the DW opening into the main aisle of the kitchen. It is the most used appliance in my space (and probably yours) and is open a fair amount of time. Can you imagine entertaining with that placement?

  • christina222_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OP: you're right, it limits the size of the sink, that said though my sink is big enough. I can lay a cookie sheet flat in it easily. There's plenty of room for my big oval Crueset dutch oven and for a big lobster pot. I haven't actually got anything that doesn't fit fully in it.

    It's 21"x18 1/2" by I think 10" deep? Maybe 9" deep.

    I had to decide between a smaller (but not small) corner sink or losing both a ton of counter space and a stack of storage drawers. No brainier for me.

  • uwtrpt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you again, all of you, for the great suggestions. My wife and I stayed up WAY too late last night talking about all the new thoughts you guys gave us.

    Scrappy25, you must be (or maybe should be?) a writer! Your posts detailing your renovation (and especially the WHY) were a significant contributor to my need for a 3rd cup of coffee this morning! :-) Thank you for the detail and great story telling.

    After reading those posts, we might possibly be in love with that Kohler stages sink. Thank you very much for the measurements of your corner sink Christina, but I doubt we are going to get that 48 inch behemoth into a corner cabinet! :-) And to think, we live less than 90 minutes away from Kohler, WI but never really thought to check out what they had to offer. Big time face palm!!

    Anne, thank you very much for your thoughts about future considerations. You had some great points that we really hadn't considered either (see below)...

    So, after our brain-storming session last night, we put together a preliminary layout. We loved the idea of the banquet seating suggested by Lisa. While the "L" bench along the peninsula makes great sense, since the dinette window extends below counter height, we didn't think that the different back heights required would work. We really liked Anne's take on extending the bench seat to allow a drop spot for backpacks and work bags (and overflow seating if/when needed in the future). We think that will work perfectly with the "mudroom locker" concept we are going for with the back hall closet. We also loved Scrappy's extra large peninsula, and that sink!!

    Here is what we came up with as a first run. Please, pick it apart and tell me what the potential pitfalls are. I already don't like the large void in the peninsula created by the bench, and I'm not sure what do do with the small 7" space next to the blind corner. I once again offer it up to the experts. Thanks again!!

    Regards,
    Rick

  • uwtrpt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One more thing I forgot to add...

    Anne had some questions about the HVAC and the soffits. Regarding HVAC, I think I have a good handle on that. Our heat is hot water radiant (you can see the registers below the window in the pictures a few posts back). I plan on converting this to in-floor radiant heat when we tile the floor. This will both get rid of the registers blocking the outside wall, and actually give us more heat in that room in the winter. Not to mention, creating a prime napping spot for the dog in the winter! :-)

    The A/C is a little stickier, but I had planned on putting in a toe-kick register for that vent. I have full access under the floor since the basement is unfinished. I don't think that should be too big of a deal. And, again, this is sure to be a prime napping spot for the dog in the summer! :-)

    That covers the stove wall. The outside wall should not have anything significant in it as there are only bedrooms above, and I know where the sewer stack and roof vent go (in the wall by the "lockers"). The soffit above the pantry/fridge I'm not sure about, but I can pretty easily poke a hole in the current pantry to take a look.

    The plan was to get rid of the soffits and do larger upper cabinets that go to the ceiling. If we really get ambitious, we may do a "sky-line" look to the uppers and vary the heights! But I think it makes sense to figure out the lower layout before trying to figure out the uppers...

  • Karenseb
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What about moving your sink back to under the window, putting in another Lazy Susan to reclaim that space. You would have a narrower peninsula, but it could be used for serving, cleanup and prep.
    I had a 3 or 4 inch spice rack like you have shown and I would rather have a 15 inch cabinet to the left of the stove. You could dedicate the top small drawer to spices or put in revolving lazy susan in the upper cabinet to hold spices.

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd prefer DO at a safer spot, so consider swapping it with pantry. Do you need all 59" of command center? I'd rather make pantry bigger.

    I like Karenseb's U better. I think you can have only one 36" corner with that arrangement, but there are a lot of other corner solutions (not sure about the name of the system, but I think Magic Corner can be used for the other corner). BTW, most prefer right angled 36" corners, maybe you should check that as well.

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You live so close to Kohler Design Center and haven't gone?! Hubby and I visited in '11 during one of our trips back to WI (I'm from there, have tons of family in the area, including in Sheboygan) and it was so much fun!

    Do a mock-up of having that sink so close to the edge of the peninsula. I'd hate not to have counter between it and the end but that's my hang-up; make sure it's not yours.

    The other issue I see is that your latest plan lacks decent landing zones for the oven/MW, fridge and pantry (although the outside of the peninsula could work for a pantry landing zone). And it's really a one cook kitchen since you have only one good prep zone, which is over the DW. Either one of you will be stepping out of the way for someone to get to the DW or you'll have to leave loading and unloading to times other than meal time.

    I drew up Plan E before I saw your wish for a Kohler Stages sink (have you priced them? They retail for $1599.)

    {{gwi:2136647}}

    A U kitchen with peninsula may be the best lay-out for you. I'm merely throwing out ideas of what might be possible. The goal is to get you to consider multiple options, figure out what would work and what doesn't to help you settle on the right plan for you.

    I realized as I played with this plan that you had never given us the room's measurement, top to bottom so I had to make a guess. If you have less room than I estimated, this plan will either need to be tweaked or tossed. It will depend on how far off my guesstimate was.

    Moving the fridge to the outer edge of the kitchen removes the road block effect it causes now at the end of your peninsula (and to lesser extent, when its positioned in the center of the wall at the bottom of the U) because there is more than one way into your kitchen.

    This plan also gives you 2 prep areas, one to the right of the range and another on the island. You can also use the island for buffet service when you entertain. It also gives family and company more room to stand and visit while you and your wife cook.

    The recessed pantry cabs works something like this:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/feng-shui-fix-transitional-dc-metro-phvw-vp~6582394)

    [Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Falls Church Architects & Building Designers Ballard + Mensua Architecture

    [{{gwi:2136648}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/pantry-with-barn-door-farmhouse-kitchen-chicago-phvw-vp~146682)

    [Farmhouse Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/farmhouse-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2114) by Chicago Kitchen & Bath Designers Rebekah Zaveloff : KitchenLab

    I'm suggesting recessing 12" deep cabs into the stud space so that 3" of the cab depth is in the wall. I wish I could remember which GWer did that so that I could point you to her kitchen thread because it's very clever and a great use of space. But I can't remember who it was, dang it. Anyhoo, you get 12" of cab storage in 9" of floor space.

    Because you wanted a trash pull-out, I shrank the sink cab from 36" to 30" with a trash pull-out between sink and corner.

    Notice that I voided the corner. If I hadn't, there wouldn't be room for a trash pull-out or the wide bank of drawers to the right of the range. Tall, bulky items can bet stored in the pantry, leaving drawer storage for silverware, prep utensils, dish towels, pots, pans, etc.

    The banquette L is flipped so that the open end is towards the kitchen. It's backed by a counter height Command Center. If you do decide to ditch the closet next to the patio for a mudroom set-up, this cab would flow smoothly into that area.

    MW is either a MW drawer at the end of the island (facing the table) or a GE Spacemaker II MW in the pantry cab. These MWs are designed to fit in 12" deep cabs.

    Plan F is the same plan as above but with the Kohler Stages Sink.

    {{gwi:2136649}}

    There are 2 ways to do the sink cab. If you're doing semi-custom cabs, you'll likely end up with a 3" spacer between corner and 45" sink cab. The installer will need to use a harness system to mount the sink and may also need to trim the sides of the sink cab to make it work (not usually recommended, btw, but it's been done). Do a forum search for HUSH recs by Trebuchet to learn about harness systems (I'm using one for my snug sink to cab installation).

    If, however, you are doing custom cabs, the cab maker can make a 48" sink cab and leave a 3" space between sink opening and end; same function as a 3" spacer but doesn't eat up under sink space. the trash is a pull-out beneath the shallow side of the sink.

    Back to your latest plan: I think this is a better use of cab space and storage.

    {{gwi:2136650}}

    Wide drawers are gold, especially in a small kitchen, which is why I opted to void the base cab in the range corner.

    I also ditched the wall oven and reduced the range from 36" to 30". Sorry, but I don't think you have a large enough kitchen for all you want to put it in (compromises stink, I know!).

    IMO, you're trying to shove a lot more kitchen into a space that isn't large enough. Have you considered eliminating the wall between kitchen and DR and having just one table area? That would be one way for you to go with larger and more appliances and a Kohler Stages sink.

    If you haven't already, do a tally of kitchen items and list where it would be logical and convenient for them to be stored. That will help you determine which plan will work and which one won't.

    Look into toe kick drawers for more storage. That will help your small kitchen live larger.

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/an-elegantly-functional-kitchen-in-durham-transitional-kitchen-raleigh-phvw-vp~6682959)

    [Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Durham Kitchen & Bath Designers emma delon

  • rantontoo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It may be possible to put a dishwasher under the shallow part of the Stages sink. Look half way down for someone who did this.

    http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0822413532680.html

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Have you considered replacing the dining room carpet with something spillproof if that is the main detractor from eating in there daily? This would free you up to expand the kitchen into the dinette area if desired.

    I'm so glad Christina222 posted pictures of her kitchen. It saved me from going on a hunt to find it and show it to you. : ) Her layout is what I immediately thought of when I saw your kitchen.

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's the link Ranton posted above as a hyperlink plus a few more threads (Ranton, GW's software is too old to do hyperlinks automatically. You need to either use the Option Link window (below the message window) or do the HTML code to make it a hyperlink. See the sticky post at the top of the forum.)

    dishwasher under prep end of Kohler stages 45 sink?

    Smallest cabinet to hold Kohler 45-inch stages

    Kohler Stages sink?

    Another Kohler Stages 45 Question...

    Opinion on kohler stages 33 as the only sink?

  • scrappy25
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Rick, I havn't had time to read the other layout posts but did want to address yourlayout version that is very similar to mine. Glad you enjoyed my story. I am in the medical field, but dictate many reports or "stories" a day that are used to make key decisions so am used to explaining my reasoning.

    I made a few tweaks. based on my experience with our kitchen.

    {{gwi:2136651}}

    1, You don't need the trash cabinet. The trash pullout fits very nicely under the Stages sink (see my pictures) and is much more useful there because that is where you will be doing your cleanup and your prepping. Removing the trash cabinet allows you to increase the width of your blind corner cabinet door to 24 or 24.5 inches. If you are using frameless cabinets the Ikea half moon fits nicely into a 48 side cabinet. It only requires an 21 inch opening so you could use a 24 inch opening and a piece of masonite to partition off the a vertical slot near the dishwasher end of the cabinet (inside the cabinet door) for additional vertical storage. The larger opening is really nice for a blind cabinet and makes the use of the corner half moons pullouts less necessary. If you really need a few inches here to separate the dishwasher opening from the cook in front of the cooktop you can do a rev a shelf narrow pullout of 6 inches or so but I am not sure that is necessary.
    2. I squared off the front of your 36 inch lazy susan. That gives you 12 inches to stand on that side while unloading the DW and also looks better.
    3. The inside of the"U" is now 61 inches or so. That is enough due to the spacing of the units- one person at the cooktop, one person loading the DW, and one person at the peninsula end prepping. If someone is standing in the center front of the cooktop the dishwasher can still be opened. Snug but do-able.As I said above in 1) you can add a 6 inch rev-s shelf pullout where you have your trash cabinet if you just want a few more inches wiggle room between the cooktop and the dishwasher.
    4 . On the peninsula, I reduced your spacer to 4 inches and increased your 48 inch Stages sink cabinet to 36+15" (51"). The spacer can be fitted with a shelf to hold cutting boards like I have (love this space). The 36+15" cabinets are probably easier and cheaper to get in a semi-custom line than a 48 inch cabinet. The deep part of the Stages sink fits in the 36 inch cabinet with a trash pullout underneath and the shallow part of the Stages sink on the outside of the peninsula over an adjacent 15 inch bank of drawers.Many of us have used variations of this configuration with the Stages sink and it is very functional.
    4. I measure the distance from my peninsula overhang to the wall with the basement door and it is a 5 inch overhang that is 39 inches from the basement door (44 inches total. So you could have a larger overhang than I do.
    5. I reduced your oven/MW cabinet to 32" to account for a 30 inch oven and 2" wall filler. That allows you to scoot your fridge over more towards the center of the U and avoid the corner of the peninsula. Recessing the fridge is a great idea if you can do it. You can also get a 42 inch counterdepth but that is $$$. I would suggest a Side by Side fridge, that woud decrease the door swings. Your frdige is close enough to the "U" that you can use those counters as your landing spot but you could also consider a pullout shelf at counter height somewhere close on the fridge wall as a landing spot.
    6. On the bench side, moving the peninsula away from the window while still terminating the bench at the edge of the window allows perhaps 16 inch deep open shelves which will be really useful for storing placemats, magazines, clearing the table of temporary working papers, etc . You could put wine cubbies along a part of that as well. The countertop would have to curve back from the drawer stacks to follow the shallower shelves but I have seen that a lot and it looks fine.
    7. I did not draw it in but if you reduced the depth of your bench to 21 inches you can replace one of the drawer stacks on the peninsula side to 27 inches instead of 24 inches. For ergonomics a 21 inch bench with pillows is more comfortable than a 24 inch bench with pillows and you will appreciate the extra drawer storage.
    8. Put in as many toekick drawers as you can if they are under $100 each. Well worth it in a small kitchen.

    Best wishes, I am short on time to check GW these days but wanted to give you my perspective.

  • tbb123
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm with Lisa - I think you're trying to squeeze a lot into a small space. I'm also with the others about including a banquette. I filled the corner with a drop-zone cabinet.
    {{gwi:2136652}}
    To show an alternative, I set this up in the IKEA software, because it's what I know. You could use any cabinets, but fyi, this IKEA kitchen, with all these wonderful full extension drawers (no more hands and knees with a flashlight) and all the appliances, is under $ 13,000. Stone counters would add a few thousand. IKEA is changing to a new line soon, so no North American jury on that yet.

    I'd take out the U, with it's nothing-but-pinch-points. I futzed with putting pantries in the corner by the DR door, but yet another pinch point. The way it's arranged, a sou chef gets a generous work space, storage and sink (coffee/breakfast station?) near the microwave. In the main L, there is a trash pullout to the left of the sink. To the right of the dishwasher is a cabinet with drawers, into which you can unload it - handy for young table setters.

    I show a cart in the middle of the action. Perhaps a child work station, a handy surface for the grilling stuff, or just a traffic diverter when the kitchen is where everybody wants to be. There are well-reviewed handy folding ones when you want to be able to tap dance.
    {{gwi:2136653}}
    {{gwi:2136654}}
    {{gwi:2136655}}

    Here is a link that might be useful: IKEA Planner File - plan expires in 5 days

    This post was edited by tbb123 on Sat, Jan 10, 15 at 23:37

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    tbb123, I think you are right about nixing the u altogether. Without even considering all the nitty gritty, your version on first glance is strikingly more spacious, and I am sure it feels that way while in it.

    I am waiting for the answer to the very pertinent question about why cleanable floors couldn't just be added to the dining room. That seems the best solution of all. Then this whole space could become kitchen with some counter seating. And honestly, if you have kids, you want all your floors in the whole house cleanable anyway.

    My sister used to pocket snails when she was little, which meant my mom found dead, crushed snail goop surprises while doing laundry. That doesn't involve floors, but it does illustrate the infinite inventiveness of children to create messes.

  • practigal
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I really like the modified U, wider, shorter peninsula with sink. I don't like a 27" wide island at all....but...the table in your drawing is too big and 24" puts the table too close to the peninsula. If you elect to go with a small island I would put it on wheels so that you can move it as necessary. An L banquette is fine for adults but any child sitting in the middle is likely to make a production of getting in and out and needing to get in and out while eating...I do agree with Jilius that there is a lot to be gained by making the floors the same.
    Thank you lisa a for the recessed pantry photo.

  • uwtrpt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks again to all for the suggestions! We really do appreciate the "out-of-the-box" ideas. It helps us to really consider what we are trying to accomplish with the re-design as we look at the various elements.

    To that end, I know there were several suggestions to eliminate the eating area in the dinette, and make that entirely kitchen space. While the clean-up factor is significant, we weren't quite willing to give up the formal dining room space in its own right. That room often becomes a de facto office when we aren't using it for more formal dining. That wouldn't be possible if we made that our everyday dining area. We appreciate the out-of-the-box ideas, but don't feel like this is a compromise we want to make.

    We also strongly considered an "L" shape plus island idea (to get the fridge off the interior wall, and onto the exterior wall), but felt that it forced us into deciding if we wanted a 27" island, or a movable cart. Neither option sounded appealing to us, so I think we are eliminating that concept for now as well.

    And since we are talking about compromises, let's talk about your thoughts about a few others on our current fridge wall. Based on some of the comments and suggestions, I came up with this:

    {{gwi:2136656}}

    I swapped the oven for the pantry in this layout. I really like a 36" cabinet between the fridge and the dining room. That almost perfectly centers the 39" fridge cabinet within the open end of the U. This seems like the ideal placement of the fridge if we are forced to keep it on the current wall (which it is looking like more and more at this point).

    With a 36" space for a pantry, that seems to give me two options; either I use a 24" + 12" configuration, or a 18" + 18" configuration. Any pros/cons for either option? I can't think of any items we keep in our current pantry that would be larger than 18", so I guess I would lean toward the 18" option, but would be interested in other opinions.

    Moving the oven/MW stack to the end of the peninsula does create another pinch point, but we aren't in and out of the oven nearly as often as we are in and out of the fridge. Additionally, the oven cabinet isn't as deep as the fridge cabinet, so that creates more space in that pinch point anyway.

    Moving along that wall, we have a 48" counter space next to the oven stack. That creates a landing place for stuff coming out of the oven, as well as a potential buffet for serving. I would either go with a full 48" long cabinet for extra large things (though we also plan on using the storage in the bench for these types of items), or go with two 24" cabinets to fill that space. Thoughts as to one versus the other?

    I left the range at 36" for a couple reasons. First of all, it would be nice to have a larger cook top! :-) But more than that, there will be storage drawers below the cook top for pots and pans that will be used on the stove. Having a 36" drawer here rather than a 30" drawer seems like a big advantage here. This is also why I left the separate oven and stove top in this layout. I'm not against the standard 30" combo oven/range. In fact, I'm having a hard time justifying a double oven setup since we rarely need that much oven space. But, having the pot and pan storage so convenient really tips the scales in my mind. I was also able to fit a larger 27" cabinet for more counter top adjacent to the stove. Thoughts on these trade-offs?

    We are still struggling a little bit with the trash pull-out. While Scrappy makes perfect sense putting the trash pullout in the 15" portion of the Stages sink cabinet, we are struggling with that placement. We currently have the trash under the sink and this is one of the things we really want to address. Part of our current issue is that the DW door blocks the sink cabinet so you can't get into the trash and the DW at the same time. Help me get over this mental block that having an unobstructed trash pullout under the sink is going to be a problem!

    We definitely like the idea of open shelves/wine cubbie/something in that void next to the bench. Also, we are definately looking into toekick drawers. That seems like a no-brainer to us.

    We like the concept of the drop counter at the end of the bench, near the mudroom lockers, and included a 21" square cabinet for this purpose. However, there are a few mental blocks here too.

    First of all, part of the appeal of the bench is having the end open to accommodate future large family gatherings. The open section there was also going to accommodate putting kiddo boots on and a drop zone for work bags (inside the bench). Putting a cabinet at the end of the bench (in the corner of a potential "L"?) seems to eliminate (or at least restrict) these desirable features.

    Also not sure about the flow of the room into the family room. How big would that end bench need to be? Will it end up cutting off the open flow we currently have (we really like how open things are now) into the family room? I'd really appreciate some thoughts here too.

    We still need to do a full accounting of what we currently store/would like to store in the kitchen to start to plan out cabinet space. Right now, we are going with "more is better", but once that is done we might have more direction for some of the trade-off decisions. There just wasn't time this weekend for that. Maybe this week... :-)

    I think that is everything for this round. Once again, we really appreciate the ideas and feedback. Keep it coming!!

    Regards,
    Rick

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Could you post the floor plan for the entire floor this is on? I am now wondering if the formal dining couldn't go more or less where the kitchen table is now, and the kitchen and kitchen table where the dining and kitchen are now.

    The reason you have a pinch point where your fridge is is because your kitchen is a pass-through to get to the dining room from the rest of the house.

    I assume the dining room is the end of the line, and there is nothing beyond it? If that is the case, if the kitchen were there, you would have no more passing through the kitchen to get anywhere else, and you would have vastly better layout options without traffic issues and pinch points.

    Dining rooms are great for highly-trafficked areas or rooms with a zillion doorways because dining room furniture goes in the center of a room, while kitchen stuff is all around the perimeter fighting with the doors.

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I understand your desire to keep a formal DR. I wanted to give mine up but hubby wouldn't. Even though we rarely use the room. And he comments on its lack of use. Oh, well. ;-)

    However, here's a little more out of the box thinking.

    If one of the primary reasons to keep the DR is to have room for an office when needed and if your office space needs don't require a room as large as your DR, consider this: reduce the DR, make it a dedicated office, create a larger DR space in the current dinette space with a more generously proportioned kitchen as well.

    Please read the threads about corner storage use (see link below) before committing yourself to corner cabs, especially since your corner cabs have small openings (I've never heard of anyone doing a 30" Susan; 33" is the smallest I've seen).

    For the backside of your peninsula, ask your cab company what is the shallowest cab they can make for standard kitchen drawer guides. Giving up a couple inches of depth on the peninsula would gain you a couple more inches to use for storage inside the U. (My hutch will be 22" deep with 21" guides, gaining me 2" of aisle between hutch and table.)

    I see that I was confused by what you mean by a 36" range on your plans. You either mean a 36" range top or a 36" cook top, not a range, since you intend to have drawers below it.

    This is a range:

    [{{gwi:2136657}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/sanchez-contemporary-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~52070)

    [Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by San Francisco Architects & Building Designers Chr DAUER Architects

    This is a range top

    [{{gwi:2136658}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/artist-retreat-eclectic-kitchen-boston-phvw-vp~1892994)

    [Eclectic Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by Wellesley Kitchen & Bath Designers Divine Design+Build

    And this is a cook top:

    [{{gwi:2136659}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/william-traditional-kitchen-sacramento-phvw-vp~4162876)

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by El Dorado Hills Interior Designers & Decorators Chris Merenda-Axtell Interior Design

    Here is a link that might be useful: Corner cabinet threads

  • uwtrpt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't have my drawing software at my computer here at work, but I will draw something up this evening. The dining room is open to the living room which in turn is open to the front door/entry way and the hall with the powder room. My daughter loves running this circle (especially when the close school two days in a row like they did last week!!!), much to my wife's displeasure!

    From memory, I would say that the dining room goes about 10 to 12 feet wider than the kitchen. It is exactly the same length as the kitchen (the fridge wall borders the living room, not the dining room). The dining room also has 2 large windows (one facing the back yard, the other facing the side yard) that are only about 18" off the floor.

    The traffic we see getting pinched with our current setup is not traffic going into the dining room. It is primarily traffic from the dinette to the kitchen and back.. For all intents and purposes of our normal everyday life, the kitchen is at the dead end of the traffic pattern.

    This is especially true at dinner time. All the traffic is bouncing back and forth between dealing with a kid setting the table in the dinette (or otherwise playing at the dinette table or in the family room) and some one (or both of us) cooking/prepping in the kitchen. We constantly are through that pinch point to set the table, help the kid with something, feed the dog, etc, etc, etc...

    That doesn't change the issues with layout that the door to the dining room causes, but I also don't think that simply swapping the kitchen for the dining room (not exactly what you suggested Jillius, I know) would change anything about our current traffic issues. Moving the kitchen into the dining room space would also likely require doing something with those large (more tall than wide) windows which is outside of the scope of what we want to deal with in this project.

    I would still be interested in what you come up with Jillius, but I just wanted to clarify the problem we are trying to solve. Thanks for taking a look!

    Regards,
    Rick

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The problem you're having with creating a good plan is the traffic route issue. Can you simply move the door to the dining room next to the wall (the wall where you currently have the fridge placed)? This would give you something like this.

    {{gwi:2136660}}

    That would be a long, dreary hall if you have uppers the whole way so I'd only do uppers as far as the fridge. Even better, I'd move the fridge where you currently have the cooktop and do some other futzing around with the cooktop/range making that entire stretch an open peninsula. If I'm reading your plan right, you will have about 5' 5" in-between the two main counters. This should be ample for two working in the kitchen at the same time.

    I agree with previous posters. Lose the idea of a 36" cooktop and double-ovens. I just don't think you have the space to make that work. If you are gourmet chefs who regularly really need those size appliances, it might be worth trying to make them work but for most of us, even those who cook daily, they're not necessary and it's crowding your space and hindering achieving a good, functional layout.

  • uwtrpt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry for the confusion about the range Lisa! I should have done a better job looking up my terminology so I was more clear. I had envisioned what you pointed out as a range top. I will be sure to update that terminology in my next layout!

    The office issue gets into the next "phase" of our multi-year (sometimes it feels multi-decade is more appropriate!) whole house remodel plan. There are a few options we have talked about, but all of them include some kind of dedicated office space included.

    The DR office is temporary, even if it is like the "temporary buildings" on the engineering campus when I went to UW Madison (they were build in the late 1940's to accommodate the additional students from the GI bill and were finally torn down in 2002).

    Edited to add:
    I forgot to address the corner storage!
    Th cabinet catalog I have been working off of has a 30" Lazy Susan cabinet listed, but I neglected to notice that it was only 18" deep on the sides. For a 24" depth, indeed the smallest susan cabinet is 33". Back to the drawing board I guess... Thanks for pointing that out!

    This post was edited by uwtrpt on Mon, Jan 12, 15 at 12:03

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Actually what I was really talking about in terms of traffic through the kitchen was that you currently have to have two doorways in it (one in and one out). Imagine what could be here if you simply didn't have the doorway to the dining room. That is what moving the kitchen to the end of the line really means. It means only one doorway to work around. In a small space, that makes a big difference.

    Just because I know it'll come up once you post the whole floor plan:

    1) Are you very set on keeping a formal living room too?
    2) If a separate office could be created or tucked in a nook somewhere, would you still care about having a formal dining room?
    3) Office spaces do not necessarily have to be in dining rooms, so what do you actually require for your office that the dining room currently provides?

    I think you will still find the fridge to be a pinch point even if it is moved to be centered on the wall as you are thinking now. Slightly better, but still very much there. I think it's been essentially proved with the discussion to date that if you stay in the current space precisely, you will be keeping the pinch point. In terms of your priorities, which of these is more important to you to keep vs. getting rid of the pinch point (and having other kitchen amenities like double ovens and such)

    1) separate informal and formal dining areas (instead of one area that works for both)

    2) separate living and family rooms (instead of one room that works for both)

    3) an office or place to work on this floor

    All three are sort of bonuses beyond the basics and should be considered when compromises are being made, so it would just be good to know what is most important to you. And please consider too how you will feel about any of your answers in five years when the kids are older, since this is your forever home, and the period where kids need SO much toy storage and constant help and supervision from you is relatively brief.

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Did you check the diagonal distance b/w the edge of the fridge to the edge of the sink counter? It still seems tight. Maybe you should consider widening the U as lisa_a suggested.

    Would you be able to unload the DW when the other is prepping/ cooking? Where do you plan to keep your everyday dishes and plates? Would you be able to prep when DD or one of you is setting the table? I think all these would be hard to do as long as the DW is in the middle of the U.

    I'm assuming your cabs will be custom made, so maybe you can do what will2kz did in this link given previously by lisa_a.

    If you can get the DW to the other side of the sink, the cabs next to the DO can be used for your plate/glass storage and one of you can load/unload the DW or set the table w/o interrupting the other.

    As to L bench vs straight, how often or crowded do expect to have the future family gatherings? Here are some renderings for the L bench. Table is 36x48 in the 1st pic, and 72 48 in the 2nd.

    {{gwi:2136661}}

    {{gwi:2136662}}

    {{gwi:2136663}}

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "...dining room goes about 10 to 12 feet wider than the kitchen. It is exactly the same length as the kitchen."

    But you haven't told us what that measurement is. We've all been guessing. Please tell us the distance between window wall and fridge wall. Measure wall to wall, not cab to fridge, etc. We need to know the room's measurement as if the space were empty.

    You have roughly the same width of space to work with as scrappy has in her kitchen but my estimates put your kitchen's length about 20" less than hers (her kitchen/DR wall measures 170", yours measures ?). Look at her plan again. The cabs on the backside of the peninsula are only 16 3/4" deep, allowing her to add the extra inches to the inner part - the working part - of her U.

    You wrote that this is your "forever" home so I understand the wish to add all the cool kitchen toys you desire. However, if this really is your forever home, you also need to think about its function, not just the toys, so that you avoid over-appliancing a small kitchen. You need to carefully review your choices and consider your long term goals for your kitchen and your home and figure out where you are willing to make compromises, because, like everyone else who has ever planned a kitchen, you are going to have to make compromises (sucks but that's reality, dang it).

    Go back to your initial goals for your kitchen (stated in your OP); a separate cook top and wall oven was a "(n)ice to have, but not necessary" item. btw, you can have a gas cook top and an electric oven if you buy a dual fuel range.

    One last thought. If you're considering spending $$ on such features as a gas range top (they range from $2600 - $3600 or more) and a Kohler Stages sink ($1599), consider spending $$ on a 42" built-in fridge (that's what scappy has). It would definitely ease the pinch point! And look good, too.

    Interesting suggestion, funkycamper, to turn the U on its side!

  • tbb123
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "This is especially true at dinner time. All the traffic is bouncing back and forth between dealing with a kid setting the table in the dinette (or otherwise playing at the dinette table or in the family room) and some one (or both of us) cooking/prepping in the kitchen. We constantly are through that pinch point to set the table, help the kid with something, feed the dog, etc, etc, etc..."

    You seem to have rejected the no-peninsula plan I suggested, but it's the peninsula that is turning your kitchen into a pinball machine.

    A good exercise for comparing one plan to another is to do two things.

    First, inventory everything you need to prepare meals in the way you've become accustom. Where, employing the "point of first use" principle, will you put everything? Is there space (or will there be space if you maximize drawer and shelf sizes)? If you have stuff in your kitchen you haven't used in the last year, better to get rid of it than plan around it. If there are things that would improve YOUR quality of life that you really, really want, figure out where those would go.

    Second, take a copy of one floor plan and a marker. Draw in all your movements in preparing a typical meal. Remember to include all those sharing the kitchen with you - people and animals. Do the same for a less typical meal, like Thanksgiving or a party. Repeat for all the competing plans. This will suggest the strengths and challenges of each.

    Neighbors had a plan like yours - with the LR-DR in an L, space to eat in the kitchen, and the heavily-used FR adjacent to the kitchen. They found they almost never used the formal LR and the DR was too small when they did use it. They also needed a dedicated office. They closed off the door to the DR from the kitchen, giving them additional wall space in the kitchen. The old DR became the office, closed off from the old LR with French doors. They turned the old LR into the formal DR - big enough for large occasions. Maybe that set-up would work for you. You could perhaps borrow space from the now-office for the kitchen.

    Sarah Susanka's concept of an "away room" makes so much sense to me. Her premise is that we need auditory distance from each other in a house, more than we need physical distance. For a house to work well, we need to be able to close a door (preferably one with a window) between one noise and the desire not to have that noise. If I were making the changes my neighbors made, I would turn that nice big newly-anointed DR, with French doors, into a library, with a corner with some comfy chairs for a private conversation.

    Here is a link that might be useful: About an Away Room.

    This post was edited by tbb123 on Mon, Jan 12, 15 at 18:09

  • scrappy25
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi, again I apologize for not reading all the posts. There may be much better suggestions than mine but I am just responding to the layout that is similar to mine.

    Two views of the dishwasher and trash open

    {{gwi:2136664}}
    {{gwi:2136665}}

    I have 26 inches from the dishwasher to the right inside corner of the U. The open area for cutting boards on the peninsula side of that inside corner (otherwise would have been filler) is 5 inches and there is a 36 inch opening under the deep part of the sink. The right door is a trash pullout and holds both regular and recycling trash.Under the shallow part of the sink is a 3 drawer stack. You can see that there is plenty of space to stand and load the dishwasher with the trash open; we do this everyday. The picture below shows the trash opened to its full extent and it still does not bump the dishwasher. I also opened the corner cabs so show that there is still space to stand there. This is an artificial situationl the trash is open only during the loading process and the corner cabs are open only during the unloading process. The 12 inches on the left of the dishwasher is also large enough for me to stand to unload into the upper cabinets from that side. Our cooktop is further away from the dishwasher than yours but in your plan someone can still stand in front of the cooktop when the dishwasher is fully open. **** we ran the dishwasher tubing under the cabinets and the toekick is removable; we needed a longer 10 foot drain hose.
    {{gwi:2136666}}

    To address the pinch point issues that everyone is so worried about.

    {{gwi:2136667}}
    The first picture is taken across the peninsula looking into the dining room; our old fridge is still there until we get rid of it. You can see the paneled subzero across the dining room door opening from the cooktop wall. The distance from the counter edge of the cooktop wall to the front of the fridge door is 35 inches and has not at all been a problem.

    {{gwi:2136668}}
    The second picture is taken in the other direction looking across the eating area into the family room and back hallway where we enter from the garage.The distance between the peninsula counter (5 inch overhang) and the basement door is 39.5 inches and has not been a problem either. You will have less of a problem because you will have bottom and top cabinets with elbow space between instead of flat doors and walls.

    Lastly here is a picture of the paneled fridge front on. I use both the cooktop wall counter in front of it and the toaster alcove or the pullout board under the toaster alcove to load and unload the fridge. The latter is perfect for heating things in the microwave from the fridge.

    {{gwi:2136669}}

    hope that helps

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "To address the pinch point issues that everyone is so worried about."

    We're only concerned about the pinch point because the OP asked for help to relieve it. =) More room between fridge and counter will definitely help but it would also be nice if we could help the OP find a lay-out that eliminates it completely.

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rick, in your latest plan:

    A double-doored 36" pantry would let you see everything at once, allow for any wide items (if any), and one 36" cabinet was always cheaper than 2-18" cabinets of the same type when we were doing our kitchen. This pantry will not be inexpensive either way.

    The 48" landing space for your oven/command center will absolutely be taken over by the command center stuff unless you put a large trivet, or even the extra rack from the oven, to "hold" the landing zone for MW/oven food on a daily basis. I'd use 2-24" base cabinets here to get useful sized drawers, and some kind of triple upper cabinet maybe with a 15" cabinet on each side and 18" wide open shelves in the middle, since 24" upper doors in your face are a little large. Or you might want a hutch look here.

    I've seen, but not used, a 30" Super Susan, and it seemed quite small to me compared to the 36" SS which I love.

    Cooktop & oven vs range--You don't get as hot yourself when using a cooktop, with the oven elsewhere, but the range costs a lot less. Again, check out induction--costs more, you probably will need a wiring upgrade, but definitely worth spending the money here, IMO!

    On the range/cooktop wall, I'd want 12" to the right of it before the corner, since it's much more comfortable and easy to use that corner with that space. You don't really need 27" to the left of the range, since you have that entire counter under the window for prep. To the left is only a landing zone for the pantry & range. When you bring in your groceries, you'll probably put them on the peninsula, put the stuff in the fridge & freezer, and then maybe move the rest over opposite the pantry to unload the bags.

    You may want to move your present table to where it would be in your plan to see where the right side of the window hits. Would there be a chair on the left side, or would you schooch the table closer to the peninsula? How would you feel not having the table centered on the window on a daily basis and maybe messing up the view/symmetry? I don't think stretching the table out for a group once in a while would be an issue, since you'd all be busy talking to each other, passing food around, etc., but every day might be different. Instead of 24" cabinets on the back side of the peninsula, you could have 12", 15", or 18" deep cabinets. 12" or 15" would be with shelves; 18" probably with drawers. Once you figure out what things need to go where, that will help in this decision.

    Anne

    This post was edited by jimandanne_mi on Mon, Jan 12, 15 at 22:32

  • uwtrpt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry, I can't help myself:
    {{gwi:2136670}}

    All kidding aside, I think I inadvertently sent some mixed signals, so let me please try to re-clarify and refocus the conversation.

    Lisa is correct, I do owe some overall dimensions, so here they are, along with the entire first floor layout.:
    {{gwi:2136671}}

    Now that you have the view of the entire first floor, so hopefully this will give you a better idea of the flow of the house. Please allow me also to re-iterate that we are not interested in moving walls or windows. We use and value the formal dining room, and the separate Living Room/Family Room. There is not any extra space the DR or the LR we are willing to give up to the kitchen.

    We also value a kitchen table in the dinette. This must be included in the final design.

    Those are the non-negotiables. I understand the concern about cramming too much into a small space. I agree that we need to do a full inventory of what we will store and where in order know how much storage space we need. That will influence how much space is left over for more toys! :-)

    Scrappy, thank you for the additional pictures and measurements. That is really valuable as we evaluate trade-offs. Given our current situation, I was very concerned about the sink/trash/DW triangle. It is very reassuring to have some numbers for a comfortable distance between these elements.

    Tbb123, I do think we have eliminated the "L" plus island layout you suggested. We like the concept, but it is simply a matter of math. To get adequate (42") clearance, we end up with a tiny (24") island. As we trade off toward a larger island, we reduce our clearance until we end up with a kitchen full of pinch points. The alternative to this trade off is to use a cart, but we really don't like that option for aesthetic and logistical reasons.

    We are considering the idea of using shallow 12" pantry cabinets along the Living Room wall in order to add room to the main kitchen area. That might allow the island to work. That is a way down our list though because the benefit of the final solution (still a small island) doesn't seem to justify the large additional effort to move the DR door.

    We REALLY like the banquette idea and are planning on incorporating that in some way. Some of the appealing features are the ability to stretch the table along the exterior wall for large gatherings sometime in the future. We also like the idea of using the "extra" end of that bench as a staging area for work bags/backpacks (inside the bench seat) as well as seating for kiddos to put on shoes/boots. While we like the idea of a cabinet on that corner near the closet ("lockers"), we are concerned about eliminating those two benefits of an open bench on that end.

    Sometimes it takes me a while to get an idea through my head, but I think I finally understand what Lisa has been trying to tell me about the peninsula. Let me see if I have this right! :-)

    By reducing the width of the peninsula, I can add additional inches to the base of the U (along the exterior wall). This has the effect of increasing the distance between the protruding corner of the fridge and the end of the peninsula, thereby reducing the dreaded pinch! Do I have that right Lisa?

    I have some good ideas to take a look at tomorrow. I'll try a different cabinet layout that incorporates some of these concepts.

    Thank you ALL for your wonderful ideas! Even the ones we eventually dismissed truly helped us to refine what we liked. We appreciate all your interest and hope you will stay tuned!

    Regards,
    Rick

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You got it, Rick! By creating a larger U, you give yourself some extra breathing room inside the working portion of your kitchen. And that's really where you need breathing room, IMO.

    Thanks for providing dimensions. As I suspected, your kitchen is not as long as scrappy's. Sure coulda used those 19", too. ;-) But you have 5 1/2" more on the fridge wall (I forgot to take pantry wall thickness into consideration). And, woo hoo, you have 2 more inches than I estimated for the room's length. In a small kitchen, every inch - every fraction of an inch - matters.

    I'll go back and revisit a few ideas now that I know how much room you have to work with and post tomorrow.

    One thing I forgot to mention about gas range tops: because they protrude beyond the counter's edge, placing one in the corner as you did in your last plan means you lose part of the width of the cab in the adjacent run. If you do a full-height BCC (blind corner cab), you'll need to pull it farther away from the wall (essentially creating a larger spacer between opening and corner) in order to open the cab. If you do a drawer above the BCC (as scrappy has done), you lose some of the width of the drawer. That is, if you want to be able to access cab storage. Usually a desired thing in a kitchen. ;-)

    You'd need to move the range top nearly to the end of that run in order to get full use of the cabs on the window run. Or go with a cook top.

    Where do you envision adding a home office down the road? Doesn't look like you have any room to spare in your first floor.

    This post was edited by lisa_a on Tue, Jan 13, 15 at 1:55

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One more question: do you plan to add molding to the DR doorway? If so, then its width needs to be subtracted from the range wall's usable space. You also need to subtract counter overhang (normally 1.5" but you can go shallower - 1" - on ends) to determine how much room you have for cabinets.

    Your current counter looks like it ends 2"-3" before the doorway, which is about the width of the molding around your doors. I wouldn't run cabs and counters any closer than that. I think that will make that doorway look and feel crowded and look like an "oops, they mismeasured."

    I went back and checked your latest plan: your cabs end .25" before the doorway so your counter overhang would be very minimal or the counter would extend into the doorway, which will look like the "oops" I mentioned above.

    You should plan on having 86.25" to 87.25" room for cabs on the range wall. That allows for a 1" counter overhang and 2" - 3" of wall between counter and doorway.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Has anyone mentioned recessing a standard fridge into the wall between the kitchen and dining room? Most of the pinch is coming from the depth of the fridge. If it could be shallower, it would really help the traffic flow. You can gain a few inches by playing with the studding, or....

    (Forgive me if I'm pushing the wrong buttons...) you could recess it even more into the living room. You might lose anywhere from 6" to 1 ft. of the living room. But, this would widen the walkway along the fridge/pantry/command center wall really, really nicely, since you could keep the entire run of cabinets at approximately a 2' (or less, depending on how deep of a recess you might decide to go), letting you get an ample walkway and a good sized peninsula.

    You might be able to smooth the inset in the living room with some clever bookshelves if needed.

    Ducking and running now...

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rick, I posted last night while you were composing yours, and mine is listed right before yours. Just wanted to mention this so you'll go back and read it, since I responded to some of your questions.

    Anne

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I suggested recessing the fridge into the stud space in my first lay-out post, Thu, Jan 8, 15 at 2:15. But good idea to recess it even further into the LR. Hmm, the wheels are turning....

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    uwtrpt, could you repost the latest image as a jpg? I can't use a png file in Paint (the software I use to edit images) and I was unable to convert it to a jpg last night. Thx!

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a suggestion:

    {{gwi:2136672}}

    This kitchen has:

    a) the dishwasher actually next to the sink
    b) a ton of pantry space
    c) views out the window both while prepping and while cleaning up
    d) two separate big stretches of counter for two separate cooks
    e) no areas without enough counter space
    f) lots of room for multiple people to be moving around at once
    g) no pinch point
    h) a 36" cooktop
    i) a generally spacious atmosphere because of the wide walkways, few uppers, and big window
    j) room for the kitchen table to expand if you want to add leaves
    h) a surprisingly nice amount of symmetry. Usually the most functional layout doesn't end up with that, but the cooktop is basically centered on its wall, the new big kitchen window is centered between the face of the upper on the left and the outside edge of the peninsula on the right, the sink is centered under the big window, and the kitchen table and its new little window are centered between the edge of the peninsula on the left and the end of the wall on the right. And this isn't quite the same thing as symmetry, but the outside edge of the peninsula is now even with the left wall of the front hallway, which looks nicely planned and deliberate and helps define the kitchen area.

    To get this you have to:

    1) Change both windows on the window wall.
    2) Move the dining room dooway down about a foot.
    3) Probably remodel the powder room. It is very large, so I took two feet from it. I don't know where the vanity and toilet are placed in that space, but they may have to be moved to allow that.

    Optional:

    4) Invert the garage door corner to give you a bit more space to walk around the table. I'd only bother with this change if it is not expensive.

    5) If you were willing to have a little corner bump-out in the living room, you could potentially put a wall oven or double wall ovens where I have the red square here:

    {{gwi:2136673}}

    You'd do one wall oven if you were getting a range (which is a cooktop/oven combination) and preferred to have more pantry cabinets above and below the one wall oven. You'd do double wall ovens with a separate cooktop if you'd rather have more drawers under the cooktop in your main work zones.

    (In general, people usually use the second oven only a few times a year during big holiday gatherings and such. So not wanting to bend down would be less of a factor here. If you have at least one wall oven at a comfy height, you'd only have to suffer the indignity of using a low oven under the cooktop a few times a year when the second oven gets used.)

    This post was edited by Jillius on Tue, Jan 13, 15 at 17:36

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just found a picture of the exact layout I'm suggesting for you, except in mirror:

    {{gwi:2136674}}

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I know you said you weren't interested in moving the DR doorway but ....

    Maybe this will change your mind?

    {{gwi:2136675}}

    Green indicates upper cabs, blue indicated table and seating when fully extended.

    I moved the DR doorway to the top end, essentially flipping your kitchen but opting for an L not a U at the bottom end.

    You get your 36" range top, your single wall oven/MW stack, a pull-out pantry and loads of counter and storage - and only 1 corner cabinet. You also don't have to worry about moving out of the prep area if someone needs to get to the DW. You also have a landing zone near fridge and oven/MW so no worries about trying to find space to put items on a narrow bits of counter next to range/range-top/cook top or sink as you have in your U lay-outs.

    The only pinch point is at the DR doorway but since it sounds as though this isn't a frequently used doorway, I felt this was doable, certainly more so than having a pinch point at the entrance to your kitchen from your dinette area.

    The 47" stretch of counter between oven/MW and fridge can be your baking center. IOW, this kitchen gives you 2 prep areas: between sink and range top and between oven/MW and fridge (although the only water source is a bit of a hike away).

    I recommend a 36" Super Susan with the door attached like this:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/warrandyte-transitional-kitchen-melbourne-phvw-vp~6941615)

    [Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Melbourne Kitchen Designers & Remodelers kitchens by peter gill
    to avoid any door conflicts so close to the range top.

    Here are images of sinks against walls, not under windows.

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/island-view-traditional-kitchen-boston-phvw-vp~696524)

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Boston Kitchen & Bath Designers Dalia Kitchen Design

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchens-by-julie-williams-design-traditional-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~114198)

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Novato Kitchen & Bath Designers Julie Williams Design

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-contemporary-kitchen-dallas-phvw-vp~574875)

    [Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Dallas Interior Designers & Decorators Denise McGaha Interiors

    The banquette is an L that extends towards the FR to seat 8 (honestly, you won't get more than that in your dinette, not without seriously crowding doorways and aisles). The long bench also gives you a spot to sit and put on shoes near the back door.

    I spec banquette benches at 24" so that you have sufficient depth to slant the back and pad it. You should get about 18" of actual seat space, perhaps a bit more. It will be similar proportions as this banquette bench

    [{{gwi:2136676}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/laurelhurst-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-seattle-phvw-vp~59848)

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Seattle Kitchen & Bath Designers Karen Ellentuck. ASID

    You can do a shallower bench if you forgo padding the back. I wouldn't forgo slanting the back, though. No one likes to sit ram-rod straight at the table. Or anywhere else for that matter.

    The table overhangs the bench by 4". If you do a shallower overhang, your aisle between table and garage wall will be reduced by that amount.

    The one thing I had a hard time fitting in was a Command Center, at least not without giving up counter and cab on the sink wall and/or giving up seating in the dinette area.

    What you could do is make the L portion of the bench deeper and add drawers to the end like this:

    [{{gwi:2136636}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/efficient-modern-kitchen-contemporary-dining-room-philadelphia-phvw-vp~1790688)

    [Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Philadelphia Architects & Building Designers Krieger + Associates Architects Inc

    Or there's this option that adds a CC between bench and pantry.

    {{gwi:2136677}}

    You can seat 4-6 comfortably, 7 (right end) when necessary and possibly 8 (not drawn in, left end of table) in a pinch. The seats at the head and foot of the table are last resort, IMO since one will feel like they're sitting in a doorway (they are) and the other will be tight up against the CC unit.

    The other possibility is if you were to add a CC hutch unit on the garage wall to the right of the garage door. You could balance the unit with cabs on the perpendicular wall (shared wall between FR and patio door vestibule).

    I've got another idea but it will be later today or tomorrow before I get to it.

  • uwtrpt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry for being slow to get back to you all; life got in the way of kitchen designs a bit! I'm going to try to answer the questions from previous posts in order...

    Anne, thank you for your thoughts on cabinet sizes. The 30" susan is out; I didn't see that it was designed to match 18" counters, not 24" counters. I appreciate the thoughts on counter dimensions as well, and I think I incorporated some of that in the layout below.

    As far as the seating at the banquet, I would envision seating seating 4 at the table (2 on each side, no one on an end) for everyday use, and then cramming people where ever they fit (including potentially on the end) for larger groups in the future. In this situation I don't mind having people sitting "in the walkway" since that would only be 1 or 2 times per year anyway. I would envision the space between the banquet table and the peninsula as simply for access to the drawers on the rear of the peninsula, and potential gathering space.

    I totally agree about stuff being dropped where it is allowed to drop. I'm good at following directions and putting things "where they belong". If we plan this out in advance I think we can keep that counter clear.

    Lisa, thanks for the thoughts on the rangetop (the one with the overhang... did I get that terminology right?). I will be sure to consider that when we pick out appliances. For the time being, let's assume that the burners will be on a cooktop (totally contained by the counter) moving forward.

    Good thoughts on the counter overhang as well. I think I have incorporated that into the layout below as well. I'll keep that in mind moving forward. We are not planning on putting molding on the DR door, so we will not need to factor that into our dimensions. The window dimensions I gave you already factor in the molding, so no change is needed there.

    Right now, there are two options for a home office. One is to put it into the basement remodel. This is the most likely solution. The other option is a potential master suite addition over the garage, which would free up our current third bedroom for a home office. Those are coming down the road (in the case of an addition, a LONG way down the road!) but are indeed accounted for.

    Laughable, no need to duck and run! :-) We are indeed planning on recessing the fridge into the stud space. For many reasons, recessing deeper into the LR isn't an option. Recessing into the powder room also isn't an option (I think this was suggested by Jillius). We recognize that the powder room is large, and are in the process of adding a (much needed) shower to that room, so the extra space is already spoken for.

    I did have a chance to take another shot at a layout that incorporates more of the suggestions made. Of course, this was also before I saw Lisa's most recent thoughts! Let's ignore those very interesting ideas for now...

    {{gwi:2136678}}

    I realized that I forgot to add dimensions, but here are some of the important ones for discussion:

    * There is a 42" (direct, diaginal) space between the corner of the fridge and the corner of the peninsula

    * The depth of the smaller cabinets in the peninsula are 15". The cabinet catalog I have been working off of has drawer units at that depth. Thoughts on a short depth drawer? Also thoughts about how to break up the 60" space? I was thinking two 30" units, but would like to hear opinions.

    * There is an equal 30" of space at each end of the table. In normal use, no one would be sitting there.

    * For the oven/MW cabinet, I was visualizing a setup like this (single wall oven plus MW combo):
    {{gwi:2136679}}
    I was thinking that the lower drawer could be reinforced to be used as a step while the kids are small, and then freed up for storage when they are bigger.

    * There is no specific command center, however, in this layout we would envision commandeering a top drawer of the 42" counter for phone charging and a mail drop. That counter also seems perfect for a coffee station (not close to water I know, but that is similar to our current situation which hasn't been a problem). The rest of the cabinet space there should be enough to house the everyday dishes to reduce traffic when setting the table.

    * The trash pullout will be incorporated under the Stags sink. I plotted out the conflict points, and this seems tight but do-able, with about 18" to stand with both the trash and DW door open.

    Please feel free to critique away!

    Lisa, your new inverted layout idea is very interesting! Sorry I don't have any comments on that yet, other than it will DEFINITELY need to be part of the discussion. I'll get back to you on that one...

    Thanks again for all the interest and opinions. Keep them coming!

    Regards,
    Rick

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How far along are you to adding the shower to the powder room? I ask because it sounds as if you are going to be adding bathrooms later -- in the addition, in the basement, etc. Typically people prefer to have just a half bath on the main floor if there are adequate bathrooms elsewhere because:

    1) a shower in the powder room is just one more thing you have to clean when company comes over
    2) walking in and out of there in your towel is also awkward when company is over
    3) the alternative -- carrying your clothes in there with you, putting them on the sink or toilet while you shower, and then getting dressed in a small space while still pretty damp -- is also not so fun

    So if you will be adding adequate baths elsewhere, does it make sense to add a shower here where not having a shower is actually ideal? Especially when that space would reeeaally be helpful for recessing the fridge?

    Seems like the powder room shower will fix an immediate need, but not be the best thing long-term for the design of this house.

    Perhaps it would make more sense to do the basement remodel now, get that extra bathroom there to fix the immediate need, and then do the kitchen and powder room and use that extra powder room space to recess the fridge rather than a shower.

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not a coffee drinker, but DH is, and he's always dripping water between the sink and coffee maker--ours is near the wall of the peninsula, which is where I'd put yours. I sure wouldn't want to have water drip across the floor of a high traffic area where people/kids could slip. Would you always check to see if you'd dripped anything? Also, in dumping the coffee grounds, wouldn't you want to be close to the trash?

    Your left Super Susan corner work space between the cooktop & sink would be better with a 36" SS. It's amazing how much difference those few inches can make.

    Anne

    This post was edited by jimandanne_mi on Wed, Jan 14, 15 at 22:27

  • texasgal47
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since there are currently no bedrooms on the lower level, I would carefully consider kitchen doorway placement in the event you decide to use your dining room as a bedroom in the future (and then use the living room for guest dining). If elderly parents are over night guests, they frequently need to remain on the ground floor. If you and your wife stay here through your senior years, you will want a downstairs bedroom. Given this, I suggest having no door between the kitchen and current dining room. Instead, exit the kitchen into the living room and make an immediate sharp U into the formal dining. My previous home had a similar situation with no door between the kitchen and formal dining room. One walked a few steps from the kitchen into the foyer, and then turned to the right to step into the dining room. This was no problem at all for the 30 years we living in that house.
    Also, given the high probability of needing a first floor sleeping space at some time in the future, a shower in the powder room makes sense to me, even if it is awkward. This is just my 2 cents looking back on life as a senior and having parents who are now frail.

  • texasgal47
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One final thought since a 36" range is quite an expense, please consider carefully how often your family will really use this size. I was a stay at home mom for many years and cooked from scratch and hosted family holiday dinners. In all those years, there was never a need for more than four burners, and even then, use of all four was very rare. I do have an electric skillet and prefer to use that at times for pancakes rather than my induction cooktop. A Webber gas grill is also frequently used for grilling meats so there are other options in place of the larger cooktop.