OK, I fixed the image size. Also sorry about the orientation change. The second plan is rotated 90 degrees counter-clockwise...

Also, here are photos of the existing kitchen:

I know you'd like to order your cabs tomorrow, but can you hold off for a few days? I see a couple of things that would really bother me.

The dw clear across the room from the sink would be a real problem for me. I have visions of stuff being trailed across the floor several times a day. Even if you don't rinse first and just scrape and place in dw, plumbing it would be more difficult, and at least half of all prospective buyers would be rinsers.

I'd like to see at least 12" of space on either side of the sink, more is better, but just a filler between the sink and frig wouldn't give me enough elbow room to scrub roasting pans and most people will want landing space around the sink and/or frig.

I'd like to see the frig and tall pantry units on the back door wall, dw and trash pullout on the sink wall. I like opening up that wall and having the breakfast bar.

Since you guys are experienced DIYers and not afraid of taking down walls and moving plumbing lines, have you given any thought to swapping rooms at all? I don't know what the rest of the house layout looks like, but could you say swap the DR and kitchen?

I very much agree with laxsupermom about the DW being across from the sink. Besides the rinsing issues she raised, it seems it would be nearly impossible for someone to be loading the DW while someone else was at the stove. These things may not bother you, but since resale will be important to you, you should really reconsider this issue.

I also think the fridge would be much better on the wall by the door. There's more room for it there and it would be accessible while someone is working in the kitchen. It would also give needed counter space next to the sink.

Thanks, folks. Believe me, we TRIED TRIED TRIED to get a better layour WRT appliances!!! But there's a big window on that wall by the door, as well as over the sink (see the handdrawn plan) and since it's a brick house we cannot move them. Even putting the sink on that wall does not help, since then there's no place for the fridge except where we have it on the current plan, or where the range is. If it goes where the range is, then the breakfast bar area is really closed off from the kitchen- those people sitting at the counter can't even see the cook. And there'so way to get three appliances onto the sink wall- not enough space. We even tried stealing space from the formal front entry (taking the closet's real estate) but that didn't alleviate things either.

It has been a real conundrum!!! As mentioned we;ve had four great architects puzzling over this for about a month now.

The layout of the house doesn't lend itself to relocating the kitchen, either, unfortunately. The spaces are just too small. WE tried adding a mudroom at the back door and sliding part of the kitchen down where I've drawn those 15" coat-hook cabinets, but it was really akward and there's no space to go further into the area by the fireplace, or we lose a dining space and then basically the whole living area would be a kitchen.

It has been very frustrating trying to figure this out. Clearly it's not ideal, but it was the best our team could come up with.

With the window situation explained, perhaps you can better see the problem. If you have any suggestions please tell us!

Thanks!
Stacey

Also wanted to add: the cabinet people's software drew a double sink, but we're getting a single. In a 30" base. So there's actually about 12" between the edge of the sink and the fridge cover panel. Still tight but?????

There are big concerns for me with this plan. Given the choice, I'm afraid I'd have to say I'd favor the current one with some cabinetry added under the window by the back door and a cabinet put in between fridge and range. I know it doesn't open it up, but offers more for kitchen work space and movement. Some of these have already been mentioned but these would be big problems to me and would keep me from buying the house (since you mention resale): dishwasher across kitchen from sink, refrigerator door can only open 90 degrees, no space beside sink on one side, and tight, pathway in from back door (a main doorway you said, right?), made worse by seating right after a pinch point.

Sorry to be negative, and I wish you the best in figuring out whatever will work best for you.

Here are elevations if anyone cares to see them:
http://sailzora.com/img-1091707-0001.pdf

You posted while I was trying to work out another layout.

How much room is there between the back door and that window beside it? I know you already bought one, but it could be worth the extra expense to find a Thermador or LiebHerr tall, narrow fridge (or any other that might fit) to fit beside the back door and loosen up the rest of your floorplan a bit.

I feel like the peninsula is really making everything tight. If you can't move the fridge, would something like this work?

what about a corner sink in the corner of the peninsula and then the range in the other corner?

I don't know that there's enough space for both to be in the corner. What about a galley type?

I put 30" counters on the range/frig wall to give you a little more space for rolling out dough or just spreading out. I'd put a MW on the back door wall and maybe open shelves in the shallow 3'wide section at the end of the breakfast bar. I'm thinking one of the broom closet type pullouts from ikeafans in the 3" by the frig.

Oh you guys are great. I have been drawing and re-drawing, but I ran out of tracing paper! I drew rhome410's layout to scale and it looks okay. I would have to run the breakfast bar counter down to where the new supporting column needs to go. I am hesitant because it shrinks my prep zone (previously with plenty of space between the range and sink) too much, so I'm not sure where I would be able to spread out and chop...

I am going to try laxsupermom's layout to scale on my plans. I was originally very resistant to putting the range or sink on the peninsula, but I see you;ve made the breakfast bar area higher than counter height, to isolate it from splashes and hide the dishes. It closes the space in more than I'd envisioned, but may be a reasonable trade-off for a more workable layout?

What is a MW?

One thing I see about that plan, though is that there's less dish/glass storage.

The fridge is a 36" counter depth french door, which we JUST bought and it was a floor model from store 2.5 hours away, and un-returnable. Also, in relation to that corner bump-in on the exterior wall, the fridge-range wall counter is 24" to where the wall turns; the other wall (where door is) is about 28" deep. I like the idea of deeper counters on the range wall, though. Our NXR range will be pretty deep; I think it's 27.5" to the front edge of the door.

OK, I drew that last layout on trace at 3/8" scale... In reality the room is just 11'9.5" wide, so with a normal 24" counter on the fridge/range wall and a 36" peninsula, that leaves about 3'3" between the countertop overhangs for passage... is that enough?

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laxsupermom, did you mean for the open shelving at the end of the peninsula to continue to the ceiling? That's pretty interesting, if so, because my dad (architect) originally drew a tall skinny pantry unit there to anchor the peninsula in our previous plan. We mocked it up in cardboard and it was just too massive and dense an element in the middle of the room. Shelving open on both sides MIGHT work. Or did you mean only below the counter?

Got it... sorry. Yes, MW on the end wall would be great, under the counter.

I was thinking just below counter, with a raised counter you could have that cab at 42" and tie the counter all the way around. That would buy you another 6" of height on that for storage. If your everyday dishes are pretty, i.e. white stoneware or something, 36"x42"ht should be plenty of space to store them and they'd be convenient for kids to set tables. Glasses could go in the cabs on the back door wall.

I googled images of dual-height breakfast bars, and I'm really not sure they are for me. I have not seen one I like yet. I don't like sitting so way-up-high on the stool, and seems kind of condo-y, I don;t know how to explain it!!
OTOH, when the sink is on the same counter, I worry folks will get splashed, and the dirty dishes will always be on display...
Arguments for one or the other? It sure helps the layout to be able to put SOMETHING on the peninsula!!

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Or glasses could go in the 15" wide x tall bookcase that's just past the basement door, I suppose.

We mocked up an upper wall cabinet on that sliver of wall next to the back door, and it was surprising how tight it made the entry seem! it's an odd old build: the door frame is only about 1 inch against the wall, it is a very tight entrance. Psychologically it feels better not to have anything on the wall as you come in... but we may need that storage?

Do you have any photos of attractively-built dual-height bars? I still can't wrap my mind around it...

Why is this so difficult? In our last house, the renovation ideas were so obvious and worked so well!! This is giving me insomnia and making me cry :(

It's ok to cry. Layouts are frustrating and it's not just a house, it's your home. On a personal note, I put in a single height counter expanse w/ 15" overhang after sketching up a dual height for myself. I went w/ the all one height for the reasons you stated. I didn't want to close off the view and I wanted the big stretch of usable counter. Lots of people like their dual height counters for hiding mess. I'd say it's a 60/40 split when it gets put to the question of which. 60single/40dual. People who dislike dual really hate them.

I put it in yours for the splash factor, but it's certainly not necessary w/ a deep enough overhang.

Thanks for the kind words.
Yeah, I'm not sure I could be happy with the dual-height counter. Already this kitchen is more "traditional" (for resale) than I would choose myself. We like clean, simple lines, generally. I grew up in the house of an architect and have a lot of mid-century Scandinavian furniture. Even polished granite is just "too much" for my sensibilities!
OTOH I am not a neat freak and the dishes do tend to pile up throughout the day until I put them in the dishwasher before I start cooking dinner. I suppose I could learn to adjust this behaviour and become the sink nazi, making sure that are remains fairly clear. But our household.... well.... for instance we wash the chickens' waterer in the kitchen sink in wintertime when the taps are frozen. We're not exactly the magazine-photo-home family!
BUT, I realize that putting one of the main elements on the peninsula is really the way to make the layout work with the obnoxious constraints we have due to brick walls and window/wall inflexibility. I;ve decided to hold off ordering the cabinets until I;m more comfortable that we've explored all the possibilities. Although, since the cabs are custom-built in Canada with a 6-week lead time, our kitchen project just gets further away!
Well- I am going to check my ebay auction for a vent hood we're hoping to win, and try to get some sleep. I hope those kitchen nightmares don;t keep me awake all night!
Thanks!

laxsupermom-
If we went with this layout and a single-height counter, we're constrained by the width of the room as to how wide we can make that peninsula. Even with standard depth counters on the range/fridge wall, we don't have a lot of room as noted above (11'9.5" width). Would you make the slot between the counter banks narrower, and the peninsula counter wider? I drew it at just 36" wide above. too narrow?

We're not a magazine-photo-ready family either. But you know how the saying goes - "If you want to see me, just pop in anytime. If you want to see my house, make an appointment.";-D As for the dishes piling up, we put in a 10" deep undermount and it is insane the number of dishes that can sit in there before you can actually see them.

36" for the penninsula is ok. Wider is better, but not at the detriment of traffic flow. I wouldn't make the space between the counters narrower, because you risk bumping butts when you have someone working at each counter. (although that can bring couples closer:)

Pretty much in agreement with rhome. This is just a variant.

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Splashing is going to happen regardless of the raised height...so I'd just stick to the single height counter (yes, I fall into the camp that doesn't like dual-height or raised height counters). They're difficult to sit at for small children and older adults, they don't really protect, since invariably people make them rather shallow, things fall off them, you lose the large expanse of counter for project (craft, school, baking), etc.

Some people often claim they hide the sink mess. In reality they do not...unless you're under 4' tall.

If you put a sink in the peninsula, try for at least an 18" overhang...24" would be even better.

You could think about putting the sink & DW on the run across from the peninsula...I haven't worked it out, but it might work there. Just a thought.

Here's another idea--- very different.

One of the big problems in the house is that there's no place to put coats/shoes. So we put that bank of 15" deep cabinets around the corner of the kitchen in our first plan. Not ideal, but something.

In this plan, we've added a wall to create a narrow mudroom just inside the back door. Due to the window and weird corner detail, this would be: a small 15" wide closet and the far end with a bench below it (kitty litter under, that would solve THAT problem!) and exposed coat hooks along the newly built wall.

We would have to eliminate the existing small coat closet inside the formal front door to gain space for the kitchen.

We looked at this idea a few weeks ago but nixed it: originally we thought it would close the space off too much, make it too dark, and be more difficult. But now am so totally CONFUSED and unsure that I'm revisiting everything.
In this layout, if the sink is on the new wall, it cound have a window high enough to still allow coat hooks under it. That might allow a bit of light in?
OR: the range and sink/DW could easily swap locations but we'd lose the window in that new wall. Solartube or small skylight instead?

*** OR *** the fridge could even go over there, with a whole bank of tall pantry units, put the range on the opposite wall (next to the bar area) and sink/DW on window wall. Oooh, storage! But the room would be much darker I think.
This involved more complicated wall reconfiguring, but it it much better?
I'm a little concerned about walking in the (formal) front door and having that row of stools right there. But, given that no one really uses that door, if this solves all the OTHER problems, that may be a reasonable compromise. I made that part of the counter narrower than 24" so the stool wouldn't stick out into the entry path too much.
Crap, I am SOOOOO confused! I need to go buy some more trace and draw elevations of this and work it out.

Maybe kill the window over the sink and flip the sink and range.

If you ANGLE the seating to hit the post? Rather like the original wall?

I like buehl's idea for the sink & dw on the back door wall. Something like this.

Not having storage by the DW is a bit problematic, but I gave this version a
rolling island which could help to move things around the kitchen. You might even be aple to store dishes on the shelves of the cart/island, glasses would still have to go across the room.

In the most recent layout above, you could always do open shelving or looks like there's room for one cabinet above the DW area. You could store glasses there and maybe dishes in a drawer to the left of the sink. Or dishes in drawers in the peninsula area. I've also seen open shelving that runs right in front of the window, but I'm not sure you have the space to anchor a shelf of the left side of that window.

Thanks, guys. Early on we did have the sink and DW on the back door wall, but the lack of storage there was the issue. I love the open feel of these last ideas but I just can't imagine where we'd store all the dishes, utensils, glassware, and everything else!

Frustrating, huh?

I'm going to buy some more trace and keep at it.

No comments on the mudroom plan? Even swapping the appliances around?

Furthering what mahlgold said, if you placed a glass front and glass sided cab on the wall, it shouldn't make the entry feel claustrophobic. One step further, I'm not sure if anyone remembers the gw member who put glass backed and fronted cabs in front of a window. Her dishes looked spectacular back lit by the window.

Regarding the mudroom as drawn, I don't love it. The window behind the sink makes it impossible to put hooks up on that wall. I know you said the house is too small to swap kitchen & DR, but could you post the rough layout w/ dimensions for several fresh sets of eyes to look at it? Placing the mudroom where you have it without the window would make the space more useful. Eliminating the front coat closet and wall and placing a load bearing column post in the corner will delineate a nice sized DR and maybe we can figure out how to make a kitchen work in the other space.

How about something like this?

I'm working on a drawing of the whole house plan... be back soon!

Here's what the house looks like now. It is one story. master bedroom suite and second bedroom are off to the right. The orginal back porch has been enclosed and is an odd 12' wide space which we currently use as a living room. The house's original LR is tiny- not even space for a full size couch. Our idea was to open the entire living area up, creating a LR in the rebuilt sunporch area (adding another BR upstairs at the same time). DR shifts over by the fireplace, seperated from LR by a low double-sided book shelf (~24-30" high) and one step down.

Most family traffic is currently through the kitchen door (to driveway/cars) but when we do the sunroom next year that back door will get a lot of use to garden/chickens.

Here's the plan we have in mind.
This is a multi-stage project. Kitchen this year, sunroom renovation and BR addition next year.
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The orientation of the plane is West up, south left, north right, east down.

The view is to the west, out over the gardens to the woods. That's why we want to open all this up so you can see out there from basically anyplace in the whole living space. These are also quite small spaces.

At first I thought, "that's not that small," but after playing with cabinet boxes, it does fit very tightly. Here's an attempt at the swap, but it doesn't leave you much of a living room before the sunroom reno next year.

You could put a higher transom type window on the new mudroom wall if you're concerned about natural light. There'd still be space for hooks under that type of window.

Incidentally, I found a pic of what I meant by glass-backed cabs in front of a window. The one I was thinking of was a much bigger window and cab, but you get the idea.

Laxsupermom, I tried something very similar, with dining in the current kitchen, and a couple cozy chairs by the fire. But my kitchen was more of a galley (with long island as one side) and didn't work out as well. --It would've been great, if we could talk her out of having a fridge... :-\ -- Anyway, I love this idea and nice job! The inspiration kitchen you posted is gorgeous. Of course, my opinion is beside the point and I'm eager to hear what Stacey thinks.

Wow- thanks so much for your ideas!! I had honestly never thought of this idea and I thought we'd been through EVERYTHING! I am going to to draw it out on the existing floor plan now.

A couple of thoughts/questions that popped into my head right away: one is that there's a funny jog in the brick wall by the entry door, so we'll have to finesse that wall's detail. perhaps the entry can stay as-is w/o wrecking the basic flow you have going on there. (It has a sweet arch over the vestibule area that I'd love to keep.)

Also- I'm not sure we could afford to do this this year, because this will surely mean removing that existing, original exterior wall (between the DR and sunroom area) which is very thick brick, obviously a bearing wall. That huge project was going to be part of the sunroom reno/bedroom addition next year. But I am going to look at it and think it through. Will report back- thanks so much!!

Oh- and I gather the shape in the middle of the space is an island and bearing column? Yes?

One last thing- what do you think about this: the clearest view of the house, from the street, is unfortunately the existing kitchen corner elevation. So if we put the mudroom there (which clearly improves the house's functionality considerably!) then folks will see in that window, to coats and baskets and stuff, rather than have a warm view into a cozy kitchen. (Landscaping won't change that much, either.) Do you think that's a serious consideration or worth the trade-off in functionality?

Thank you!!

Stacey

I'm meeting with my dad/architect tonight and we'll look at this closely. I LOVE the idea of it. We will have to finesse it, because it messes up the traffic flow to the new upstairs (those stairs need to piggy-back over the basement stairs and because the sunroom footprint is so narrow, there's not much room for furniture AND traffic... ). My husband is also wary of moving the sink so far from the sewer drain (it's under the current front entry closet) and being able to get enough pitch while retaining headroom inh the basement. I also would move the range over onto the fridge wall, because I don't want a hood in the way there... but WOW.. possibilities! I am going to investigate further. THANK YOU!
now to bake the pie I promised my daughter!

rhome, that's high praise coming from who I consider the master layout planner. That's not disrespecting the other layout gurus who I have often pointed out, but your layouts are always pointing out things that I haven't even considered.

Stacy, yes, that thing in the middle is an island and support column. I think the messier baskets would probably be pushed into the cubby nook. If you plan the hooks/pegs and bench on the wall to look like a large parsons bench, I think it could look really charming especially if you pop a transom window in that wall. Good luck w/ the planning meeting.

Hi folks- sorry I was MIA all day.

laxsupermom is my HERO!!!

It's been a whirlwind. I met with architect #1 (Dad) last night and he was quite positive about this idea. Met with architect #2 (friend) this AM and she was very excited about it. She feels it solves so many problems in the house, and so do I! Next I went to the kitchen store and spoke with the KD there who's been helping us. She was incredibly positive about it. I expressed concern about resale WRT the VERY open floor plan (in this house, because spaces are so small, you won't be more than 12' away from the kitchen at any time, unless you are in a bedroom...) and the fact that the kitchen dominates it... but she said that 80% of the kitchens they do these days (new build especially) are like that.

So here's the plan with some tweaking. it is still pretty small (10 x 11 or so) but I think it feels a lot better. What do you think?

Again, a HUGE thank you to laxsupermom and rhome410 for taking the time to help with this!

Stacey

Comment/observation, not criticism: With the wall at the end of the island the view through the house to the view out back from the new dining space is blocked. Is that OK? Is it necessary to have that much structure? Is the full height piece next to the dw structurally necessary, too?

This is a floorplan I think you can breathe in, rather than feel cramped, and I LOVE the little sitting area in front of the fireplace and you get 2 great views from the kitchen as you work. Nice.

I'm so glad you got positive responses. I love that you'll be able to see out to your garden while you work and that you can have guests hanging out w/out being in your way. Love the shape of your island. Of course now that the layout is mostly hammered out, here's where the fun starts. Can't wait to see your home as this progresses.

Thanks!

I've already done away with the wall at the end of the island, actually. We do need a column there but it can be narrow.

I think we do need a column someplace along the sink wall. It's the original exterior wall of the house so very load-bearing. I think without it we would need a very huge new header, and since the ceilings are already very low (7'9") I don't want it to get too deep. Plus, this new design, while it solves a LOT of problems, is actually shorter on storage than our original plan (which had a remote pantry no longer possible with new layout). And- in the old plan I had a hanging pot rack over the side window for pots and pans. In the new plan, since it's dominating the house, I don't think I want the pot rack hanging in the middle of everything... so that means I need to give up substantial base cab space for those items. Anyway I am getting nervous about lack of space so I made that pantry full-height to compensate. However, to accomodate the structural column it can only be 18-20 inches deep, which is a pricey upgrade. Maybe it's not such a great solution.

Can you guys think of any other ways to gain more storage while still keeping the openness?

I am also having a heck of a time figuring out the detail of the end of the run of uppers (to the right of the range.) Is it totally weird that they'll have to end 4" or so in from the normal location, to accomodate that header? The backsplash would continue along 4 " before terminating at the corner. Weird, huh?

Actual measurements are just slightly smaller than what's drawn on the plan above. I'll scan the larger scale drawing. Actual dimensions from the OUTSIDE of the stud wall next to the fridge, to the OUTSIDE of the new header (I lined the back of the bases up at that point to squeeze inches out, even though it looks a lot better to place then INSIDE that line) is 9'11"

If I allow 8' from the fireplace wall to accomodate the chairs and traffic flow between them and pulled-out stools at the island, (allowing 39" aisle between range wall and island) it's only 10' wide. So basically 10 x 10.

Can I make the aisles narrow than 39" since it is such a small kitchen? 36" would help...

Any other suggestions?

One thing is that I don't need cookbook storage, since they can go in the adjascent bookcases.

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We let you keep your fridge and stove and now you want to store things, too? ;-D

Can you put in any cabinetry beside the fireplace that could be pantry space?

I'm thinking that you might still need the pot rack...Consider it part of the bungalow personality and not worry about it being in the middle of the house. Think of it as art.

When you're figuring aisle width are you figuring only cabinet boxes, or are you including the space the doors and counter overhang will use? I would keep it to 36" clear, which means you need to figure in all those things. Also, I don't think your trash pullout is in a very convenient spot. I use mine during prep and cleanup, so would want it very handy to the sink.

I was figuring 39" box-to-box, so I guess that's about 36" clear....

The fireplace wall is a huge expanse of brick with inlaid shelves, so I don't think it would work well to put cabinets there unless we chiseled off the shelves and drywalled over it first. Whick removes a lot of character from the house.

I know what you mean about the trash- actually I'd figured on having that one there (for sort of general household use) and then a smaller 2-bin under the sink for my own prep waste and compost. But maybe I should relocate the trash and use the under-sink better.

Oh, I don't know about the pot rack in the middle of the house !! This is such a small space! I'll have to try to visualize it more clearly. I hope it doesn't end up killing this layout. Wish I could find a 3D software program that worked. I spend days learning Sunset kitchen design software but it keep totally crashing my new laptop. Scares me!

Thanks again
Stacey

could you do cabinets to the right of the step where you currently are planning a bookcase?

Yes, I guess I could do that. It would, however, make the entire main room of the house into "kitchen" rather than kitchen + small reading zone.... hmmmm. maybe I could make them out of a different material, i.e. more like regular built-ins than kitchen cabinetry. Kitchen is natural cherry simple shaker. Maybe I could do those in painted wood and paint to match our trim. That would provide more storage without the kitchen being so overpowering..... Thanks for the idea, I'll go take a look!

No, don't rip out the builtin stuff around the fireplace! I just saw blank space on the plan and wanted to fill it. ;-)

I have software, but not sure it would accurately show your space with the home's character, etc. and the pot rack. If you want you could email me through 'my page' and I could do what I can. You'll have to give me a concise list of materials, cabinet door styles, etc. and I'll want a plan with good measurements on it.

I like the idea of making the cabinet(s) on the right hand side look like built in furniture by painting it your trim color. I see that as being really useful pantry space that doesn't look like "pantry." Your kids could grab a snack w/out ever getting in your way. Your seasonal items can go in the cab under the overhang and drawers really do hold a ton because you use the full depth and not just the front.

I think one thing you should do is create a spreadsheet with everything you own that you'd like to store in your kitchen and then assign them places. I know that I pared down quite a bit with this renovation, because I had no idea how much really useless stuff I had. We had 2 blenders, 2 sandwich makers, a panini press, 7 roasting pans(why?!) Never, not ever, even when hosting several holiday dinners with tons of people will I ever need 7 roasting pans. I did keep a million shaped cake pans, but my cabs go to the ceiling and they get stored at the top.