Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
carriebor

How Best to use KD @ This Stage

Carrie B
9 years ago

About a year ago, I met with a KD. Actually, she's NOT a KD, which I think was a problem. She's an architect who was recommended by an acquaintance as being "a genius with space."

So, anyway, a year and a bunch of money later, I ended up with a layout that I never really loved, that people here told me was awful, and that necessitated moving the back door around the corner to the side of the house that would require a zoning variance or co-joining my two lots - in other words, probably a big headache & expense if even possible anyway. I scrapped the design, the drawings, and the structural engineer's plans for that design.

I got a recommendation for a second KD and I had her come for a consultation. I liked her, and, this time, the KD is a registered KD. While the KD did sketch up a basic layout during her visit that I wasn't thrilled about, I thought I'd be able to work with her, and that at least she's got professional experience as a KD.

I did a bunch of looking at rowhome kitchen images Online, and posted thoughts here & got lots of really great suggestions from a bunch of really really helpful people.

So, now I have at least the "bones" of a layout. There's stuff I'm still not sure about: How to use/work around the "cubby" area where the proposed microwave will go, whether to go w/ an 18" or 24" DW (or none at all,) whether to go w/ a 30" range or whether to get an induction cooktop & a convection micro/speed oven so that one oven only will buy me storage space. I'd like there to be a window over the sink, but, depending on how the permitting stuff goes, I might have some open shelves with pretty pottery up there, and I might wait on the window for sometime down the line.

I think that a 30" round table pushed against the wall at the end of the sink run will be fine most of the time, and can be pulled out & into the LR a bit to accommodate 3-4 people on the rare occasions when it needs to.

So, I've attached my most recent layout sketch, including the entire 1st floor. Tomorrow, I meet with the second KD, and I'm not really sure how I'll use her. Based on our last meeting, she was advocating going with a 30" range & 24" microwave. But, other than that, I don't know what she'll think. What questions do you think I should ask her? How can I get the most out of this meeting?

Any more thoughts on layout for me?

{{gwi:2136299}}

Here is a link that might be useful: My last big layout post

Comments (33)

  • HomeChef59
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I remember your previous postings and quandaries. What I would do is make a simple list of what I would like. Don't worry about sizes, yet. Discuss a proposed budget. Don't sell the space short. It's the KD's job to make it work for you. Be sure to tell her that you are a flexible thinker.

    You can give her your rendering and tell her why you like it. You can also tell her what you think is missing. Don't worry about finishes at this point. Get the space right, first.

    She will measure the space, note your requirements, go away, and do her magic. When she returns, she should give you a basic outline with a few options needing decisions. At this point, you should be heading in the right direction.

    Let us hear how the meeting goes.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, HomeChef.

    She's already sketched up a couple different options -but I still like mine better. Maybe she'll still come up with something else. We'll see what happens tomorrow!

  • eam44
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Im not sure how to answer the question you've asked, but I do remember your previous post and I'm sure KDs will chime in. I just don't get why this is so difficult. I would change the stair landing to open into the LR and build a peninsula. The following diagram is a quick one - and while I've kept the scale you show in your diagram, your own numbers don't really add up, and mine are different than yours as well. You show the wall from the basement stairs to the sliding glass doors as 92", but I fill the scaled up space with 84" of cabinetry - best I can do for now.

    I hope this gives you some more ideas and wish you luck on your renovation.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, EAM44. I don't know why it's so difficult, either!

    The stair landing can't go into the living room because there are steps in the way, I'd have to re-do the entire stairwell to make that happen, plus, the steps go out into the room, making a pretty narrow passageway w/ a peninsula:

    {{gwi:2136300}}

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, I see, you ARE suggesting I re-do the stairwell!

    You know, I suppose it is technically possible, and maybe even a good idea, but these are historic steps, original to my 200 year old home - they show 200 years of families going up & down in the wear pattern of the wood. They're one of the things I love about my house.

  • eam44
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You can keep the bottom three steps, just turn them 90 degrees, and work with the existing wood to change that last curve into the kitchen into a straight run into the LR. In return you get a functional kitchen, LR and DR. It may work for you, may not.

    It's hard to improve a space you're not prepared to change. But maybe the answer for you is to keep your current layout and just improve the look of things. Whatever you decide, I hope it all goes well for you.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Straightening out the bottom of the stairs occurred to me too, but I think it would look weird architecturally for the stairs to basically run into the fireplace. And functionally, you don't want a fireplace sticking out into the bottom landing of your stairs.

    Also, I think it wouldn't just be shifting the three bottom steps 90°. I think you'd actually need 4 or 5 steps sticking out towards fireplace from the point of the current staircase wall.

    Currently, you descend essentially in place for a few steps in the turn of the staircase. If it were straightened (no more turn), you'd no longer have any descent in place. Every step in the staircase would involve some horizontal travel as well. I think that would mean the whole straight staircase would be longer than the sum length of the current staircase.

    The extra length required for a straight staircase would mean the stairs would come right up to the edge of the fireplace.

    I could be wrong. I've never built a staircase.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you again, EAM & jillius. The bottom seven steps would have to move in order for the steps to descent into the LR. The bottom three are regular rectangular steps, but the next four are spiral. So, those four triangular steps would need to be replaced (or amended.)

    The adjoining house on that side has been completely gutted/rehabbed. They took out the fireplace and the spiral steps altogether & they built a straight staircase, going up (not sure where they put the basement steps) on the opposite wall.

    This post was edited by carrieb on Sun, Jan 4, 15 at 8:16

  • herbflavor
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think I'd attempt an L using two of the walls rather than the two walls opposite each other.. what is meant by main entrance/patio door? I'd think about a door ,maybe French along long sink wall toward back...then use current back wall [containing window and door] and fridge wall for your working L of kitchen and leave long wall for table, along with buffet or serving setup/etc. ...you can put out things and have people at the table in a more inviting way and not intrude on the working part of kitchen activity. Over by the L you can probably work in a butcher block cart/table rather than full island which will help the kitchen in its functioning. I wouldn't do the existing plan you've created...the space should be analyzed more.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Herbflavor - I laughed a little at "the space should be analyzed more..." If you had any idea how much this space had been analyzed, your head would be spinning. ;-)

    Where do you see "main entrance/patio door"? I have a front door, and then I have & need a back/garden door. In my drawing above, I have drawn in a sliding door, and would use the right hand side as the egress.

    You've missed past conversations, but a door is not advised on that long wall because the property adjoining my house, while owned by me, is a separate address, and therefore getting a permit to put in a door on that side could be difficult, most likely very expensive, and possibly absolutely impossible.

  • herbflavor
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    it says "sliding door/main door" on one of the sketches on your slideshow. If the whole space is more in demand in terms of flow through traffic and access to a yard/garden, well okay.But the door left as is, along with the L concept on back wall and fridge wall would appeal to me. Free the long wall on right for table/food and display/etc. Depends on what you want in terms of delineation of space.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, thanks, herbflavor. My Photobucket account is full of stuff from the past year or so - including quite a few discarded layouts.

    Certainly, an L at the back there would be a possibility. I think that several things made me decline that suggestion. First, considering that the existing door would stay - we'd lose about 3' of "long wall" - so that gives us 9' of space on that back wall.

    And, then, if we leave the window, we lose 3' of potential uppers - If we block up the window, less light in an already dark row home. If we put the sink under that existing back window, then the only remaining places for the range are either within a few inches from the fridge or a few inches from the door - with very little landing space on either side. It just makes things really cramped.

    I definitely see the appeal of having the garden side wall open for walking to the front door and for a table/chairs, though!

    So, that L would give us one 9' run and one 7.5' run, with a corner joining them. That's really tight in terms of getting a fridge, sink, range, maybe a DW, trash, food storage, etc.

    This post was edited by carrieb on Sun, Jan 4, 15 at 12:34

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with HomeChef's suggestion on how to start your work with the KD. And the reason why this is so difficult is that you're trying to do it right within your space limitations. I think we all struggle with that, especially when we don't have a big footprint to work with.

    Remember, if you don't like what the KD designs, you don't have to go with it. I hope this one isn't going to charge you another arm. It seems like you've spent a lot for inappropriate advice already.

    Best wishes!

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, funkycamper. Agreed 100%! She'll be here in a few minutes, and I'm excited & nervous. Will post an update in an hour or so. *biting nails*

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Does the fireplace not work? It's crazy that your neighbors took theirs out!

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jillius - at least on my side, fireplace does not work (hence the candles set up in there.) Apparently, the chimney on the roof was knocked down & roofed over long ago. I have not researched what it would take to get the fireplace back in working order.

    The two houses (technically twins, now, since we're both on an end - a two-home "row") were, at one time (most likely) mirror images of one another. Before gutting the house next door, the kitchen was still a separate room with a door separating it from the LR.

    Now, on to the UPDATE!

    KD visit was awesome. Firstly, she really liked my basic layout. She thought that having the sliding glass door, with transom - opening up that back wall was a great idea.

    She asked some questions that have come up here on these last few threads:

    -switching the sink & range positions
    -putting fridge in back corner and/or going w/ full depth,
    -18" vs. 24" DW,
    -30" standard range vs. cooktop/convection microwave, etc.
    -deeper counters in the back "cubby"

    When I could articulate why I thought something was better for my kitchen, she listened (thank you, GWebbers for giving me such solid, well expressed opinions that I could co-opt & convey when necessary!)

    She also suggested having a contractor out to drill "peeking holes" around the cubby - so he can see, using a flashlight, if there are actually pipes, etc. both to the left and on top of it, or whether we can actually gain some inches of cabinet space, etc, around it.

    She's going to draw up 3D plans - using my sketch in the OP as a jumping off point. We also talked some about cabinetry, flooring, countertops and lighting. She gave me some things to think about on those fronts as well.

    I'm so thrilled to finally feel like I'm heading somewhere that will work really well for me.

    Thank you all so much!!!

    This post was edited by carrieb on Sun, Jan 4, 15 at 17:37

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And best of all - she thought I was right on track in terms of budget!!!

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm so glad it went well for you. Happy dance!! I look forward to hearing about what she comes up with.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    SUCH a happy dance, funkycamper! I'm so, so happy and relieved. Finally feel like this is really gonna happen!

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In the last thread, I made a layout suggestion at the end of the discussion that easily fits standard appliances and gives you:

    -more consolidated lower drawer storage (banks of 36" and 42" drawers vs. 36", 18", and 24")
    -vastly more counter space even when the flip-up counter is down
    -a coat closet
    -a bigger pantry (30" vs. 18")
    -a bigger sink
    -a tighter work triangle

    This was that layout:

    {{gwi:2136301}}

    You responded that the reason why you liked your current layout idea was because the big glass door would be your view from the front room, rather than seeing the kitchen because you don't find kitchens to be that pretty.

    Just in case it makes a difference, if you went with the last option of the layout I suggested (the one with the coat closet - my favorite) and put a bistro table for eating in the living room, you actually wouldn't be able to see much of the kitchen at all from the front room.

    Your view from the front door and the couch really would just be mostly a glass door and glass windows, and they would certainly be the focus of your view. It's not quite as "What kitchen?" as the layout you currently have in mind, but it's pretty good at keeping the kitchen well out of the spotlight, and you would get so much more in terms of counter work space and storage that it really might be worth considering.

    I mocked it up in 3D so you could see:

    {{gwi:2136302}}

    You can also see of how the stairs+coat closet+pantry create a little hallway of sorts that neatly defines the kitchen and living room as separate entities, and the stairs make so much more sense grouped in a hallway rather than just sticking out. I am picturing the outside of the pantry being drywalled and painted like a closet, rather than having obvious kitchen finishes (like cabinets) encroaching on the living room.

    If it's not clear, I mean for the windows/door in the kitchen to be everywhere that cabinets aren't on the far wall, like in this picture:

    {{gwi:2136303}}

    This table would be perfect to be a side table most of the time in the living room and dining table for 2-4 the rest of the time:

    http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Colby-Square-Drop-Leaf-Table/8300514/product.html

    This post was edited by Jillius on Sun, Jan 4, 15 at 22:58

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you again, Jillius, for all your good work and for your awesome renderings & examples.

    I was trying to remember why my initial KD, the architect, who had brought up the possibility of opening the basement steps into that side of the kitchen ended up scratching any thoughts of doing that. I'm thinking that maybe that wall is structural/holds up the steps above it. It is a thick, solid plaster (and brick?) wall - definitely not sheetrock.

    Here's a photo looking in to the basement - the wall on the right, with the coats is the wall that goes into where the fridge is now. The curve at the top is where the steps are above going up.

    {{gwi:2136304}}

    I'd also like my main eating area to not be in the living room. I realize that I have a tiny space, and have to be making some compromises, but I'd really like a place to eat that is either it's own designated place or in the kitchen.

    I do love the idea of having a coat closet, and more storage overall. As someone who doesn't cook much, my countertops end up getting full of bills, newspaper articles, mail, etc. Maybe with more counterspace that wouldn't happen so much. I don't really know.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The solution to clutter is more storage. Stuff accumulates on surfaces because there is nowhere better to put it. More kitchen cabinet drawers will help, or maybe a basket in the pantry for mail, bills, etc. to get dropped into. If you ever get around to putting the desk/drawers in under the bay window, the drawers in that would be a much more natural place for mail and bills. Especially since it's right inside the front door where you'd be entering with mail.

    Shelving or cupboards flanking the fireplace could also help with clutter.

    More counter helps with still having usable real estate and not looking cluttered after you set out your coffeemaker, toaster, etc. More counter also contributes to resale value -- it is a real selling feature. But in terms of random stuff accumulating on the counter now -- that would need a designated storage area somewhere.

    Regarding moving the basement door, I can say personally that this is almost the only layout I ever considered in which moving the door actually was useful. Perhaps your KD scrapped the idea because the layouts she ended up considering simply didn't require moving the door?

    The wall in your picture doesn't look any thicker than a standard wall made of 2x4s, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not structural. The presence of plaster vs. drywall also doesn't mean anything structural. Plaster just means it's old. Back when plaster was used instead of drywall, they plastered non-structural walls right along with the structural ones. Same way we cover all walls, structural and non-structural, with drywall now. You'd just have to ask an engineer if a door could go there.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm thinking about your layouts, Jillius. I'm thinking.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ha! I believe you. If there is any one absolute truth on this earth, it is that you are considering all options for your kitchen.

    This post was edited by Jillius on Mon, Jan 5, 15 at 0:30

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OMG, Jillius, you are incredible. carrieb, I really think that last set of drawings are perfect. But, then again, I'm not big on eating in the kitchen itself so YMMV. I just really like the layout, think it's super-functional, gives you a tremendous view from your living room, and also hides potential kitchen messes. What more could you want?

    I totally agree with Jillius regarding the clutter issue. If there is no designated space for it, it will become clutter on your counters or elsewhere. For mail and other odds-and-ends like that which now tend to clutter your counters, you really need a designated landing space. And it makes the best sense to have it by your front door. It could be a small, cute chest of drawers or something more elaborate but still compact. If you have a coat closet, it could simply be wall pockets on the inside of the closet door. If you google around, you'll find lots of ideas that would work for that.

    Just had to pop in again because I so love Jillius plan. I do hope you'll give it good consideration.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    slips funkycamper twenty bucks

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I spent a good amount of time late last night & this morning thinking about Jillius's layout. I was trying to figure out in my head if I was resistant for practical reasons or emotional reasons, or, more likely, how much of each were playing a role.

    I kind of fell in love with the galley kitchen I posted above, and was sort of proud of myself for mostly coming up with it myself. So, I had/have to appease my internal petulant thirteen year old's ego.

    But if I was going to reject a better functioning layout offhand, I at least wanted to (try to) be honest with myself about the whys. That, and give myself a nudge to let go of vanity (or set it aside, anyway) & to be open to it if the evidence was overwhelming in its favor.

    So, I looked carefully at both layouts, and I got out my calculator. I also looked at the layout in terms of my usage.

    So, calculator (going clockwise from bumpout/pantry at end of sink run):

    Lower/Drawers:

    Original Post (my drawing, above) (I swapped out an 18" for a 24" DW) 30+18+24 = 72 (NOT including my 18" trash pullout)

    Jillius: Lower Drawers: 42 + 36 = 78

    In truth, I think I really need an 18 trash pullout - I use a 13g trash can and the same sized recycling. I can't take my trash out every day b/c trash pickup is once a week & I don't have a garage/dumpster to put my trash in - my bins generally hold a week's worth of waste.

    Weeks that I go over the 13g size, trash ends up in the garden or the basement, neither of which is ideal. If I steal 6" from Jillius's layout for the PO trash, that makes both layouts have a total of 72" for drawers.

    That said, Jillius's is FAR more efficient and more interior drawer space, with two large drawers vs. 1 large & 2 small in mine.

    Counter Tops:

    OP Countertop: 24 + 30 + 18 + 24 + 18 = 114

    Jillius Counter tops: 24+42+12+36 +8 = 122

    I know that I'd never use the pullout/pullup countertop. Even for short stints, I couldn't handle the door being obstructed. Maybe it's an emotional thing, but, really, I'm so constantly in & out - even in winter there's compost going out - that I did not include it in these calculations. In Jillius's drawing, there's an extra 8" of counter top - that 8" by the "cubby" at the back of the kitchen where the shallow shelves are above.

    OP Uppers: 114 (same measurements as countertops, though I may shave a few up to 6 inches off on either side of the uppers by the sink window to make the sink window bigger - so for purpose of argument, let's say 102, here)

    Jillius: Uppers: 24 + 42 = 66


    OP Pantry: 18"

    Jillius: Pantry: 30"!!!

    Other
    I'm assuming both drawings will have over the fridge cabinets, also, assuming that some of the "upper" space in each of our drawings will go to a microwave.

    In the OP, there's also an over the range hood cabinet.

    I'm also wondering about the Jillius's range location - there have been discussions here before about putting a range in front of a window - I don't know what the codes are like in Philly, whether venting would be an issue, etc. Currently, I have no range venting at all, and considering how infrequently I actually use my cooktop, it's never been a problem.

    Since I don't like the idea of main eating being in the LR (and, truthfully, a 30" table would be tight in the space) then we'd lose the coat closet, though I have talked about replacing my chest height cabinet between the stairs & the fireplace w/ a coat closet.

    I do LOVE the way the eat-in seating is laid out in Jillus's drawing. With the seating for company as Jillius has drawn, I could even pull the table over there as I have it in the OP, assuming I would not need basement access during a dinner party (and, really, I could still ask a guest to move a couple inches while I squeeze by.)

    So, am I missing anything else here? Do I have the plusses of both drawings honestly & (more or less) objectively outlined?

    This post was edited by carrieb on Mon, Jan 5, 15 at 9:30

  • cluelessincolorado
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think part of what I am attracted to in your first floor is the feeling of space, even in a small space. If you start closing it off, it might feel closed in. I would suggest hanging a sheet/brown paper for a couple days where new walls would go to get a feel. I know you wouldn't have light coming in the end as your future plan would, but let your senses get a feel first! Just my $0.02 here and worth just that!

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Clueless - Yes, I'm with you, and I think that is probably a big part of what I like about my open layout - that feeling of open space in the house that continues out the sliding door w/ above transom.

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @Jillius, I would have done it for a good cuppa coffee. I'm a cheap cheerleader.

    @carrieb, I think clueless's idea of hanging things up to mimic Jillius plan is definitely something you should do. You should mock-up as much as possible all potential plans before you make your final decision.

    I know this has been a long, frustrating process but you're in the home stretch of the planning stage, have several good ideas and, hopefully, your new KD will come up with a few more. You may be able to pick and choose from all the plans you like to cobble together yet another plan. Patience, consideration, and mock-ups now will yield the best result.

    In addition to doing mock-ups, do pretend cooking. I keep changing my own plan (which I'll put out for review soon) and walk around my kitchen pretending I'm making different meals. Since there are two of us, I make DH pretend he's washing up while I'm cooking, then we switch, then I pretend I'm baking while he's cooking, yada yada. It really helps to go through the physical motions in addition to visualizing.

    I never realized through all of this that you don't have a vent for your range. Put one in. If you choose a plan with range in front of the window, you can still have a hood. Even if you only cook once in awhile, it will keep your home cleaner and your air quality fresher. And not just in your kitchen area. Greasy dust can all through your home and create more grime anywhere. And it will make a huge difference someday when you do try to sell.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh for sure, for sure mock it all up. I have pictures of my husband sanding our vanity drawers underneath a paper arched doorway. We piled boxes everywhere to represent the pantry and base cabinets, kinda like building a fort. And I kept the box our trash can came in for months because it was roughly the same size as an upper. That thing got taped up on nearly every wall in the kitchen.

    I would also suggest moving your little table to the living room for a bit to see if you hate the idea as much in practice.

    I would amend the plan comparison list to say that, like the drawers, it's less about the total counter lengths than how it is distributed. Even without the flip-up counter in mine, you get two wide swatches of counter (42" and 36") to work on. Anything less than 30" is not really useful as a work space -- just as a landing zone -- because it is less wide than a human body. In the OP, you have just one true work space that is 30-36" (depending on the size of the dishwasher), and no other swatch of counter is wide enough to work on.

    I know you don't cook, but even assembling a simple salad requires some space to spread out your ingredients, to chop, and to mix. Right now, you have a big stretch of counter on the peninsula, and you are going to lose that.

    I am not saying add back the peninsula because I don't think it is good in the space, but do block off all your counter work space except 30-36" for a week and see how if you can live with that plan. For sure, I could not.

    This is why I suggested running the microwave wall counter through the pantry in the OP and a flat glass cooktop that can double as a counter. I like very much how open and simple and clean the OP layout is, but I dunno that you will have real space to DO anything with the plan as it is.

    That lack of counter would bug me everyday. It's the thing that has kept your kitchen rolling around in my head, thinking there must be a better solution.

    The other concerns I had about the OP are really much more minor and the type of trade-offs we all have to decide to live with in our kitchens, but with counter space issue, it started to seem like a long list of things that could be better.

    Like the long-ish walk between the two sides of the wide galley is un-ideal. The way the sink wall cabinets just cut off randomly on their way to the front door without dying into a wall or other natural stopping pointing, so when you enter the home, your view straight ahead would be of the floating sides of an upper and lower, just hanging out there. The table placement on the end of that cabinet run also seems a bit random and after-thought-y, and the table there would be an obstacle that you have to walk around. The bottom three stairs also stick out kind of randomly and are an obstacle you have to walk around. And then there is so little counter. And all of the work spaces face the wall.

    Do you go in the basement often? If it is rare that you go down there, could your table and chairs go against that basement door even if it isn't moved? The stairs and table grouped together on that side has a lot of benefits -- the walkway past them stays wider, the stairs aren't sticking out randomly by themselves, and it's a much cleaner, less-obstacled flow from the front to the back of the house.

    Maybe you could add a wall stub or vertical beam against the wall or something minor architecturally at the end of the sink wall cabinet run, so it is dying into something and the ungrounded ends are not what greets you at the front door.

    In my layout, the trade-offs are the extra built-in storage means the space will feel a bit smaller (although I hope not too badly -- I kept the walkways wide and the windows big, and things will be neater and less cluttered with more storage), you won't have seating in the kitchen, and the cooktop venting will not be ideal.

    I'd make sure the window above the cooktop opens and get a downdraft cooktop and call it good enough. I wouldn't hang a range hood. I know you'd prefer seeing the window to seeing the hood, and your cooking habits barely need venting. That is an exterior wall -- if your future buyer needs a more serious range hood solution, it is easy enough to add.

    Perhaps you could have {{gwi:2136298}} to help keep things from feeling closed in. A mirror would be useful too for when you are putting on your coat and hat and stuff on your way out, and it would bounce light around.

    There is no helping the kitchen seating issue. I'd just try moving the table to the living room for a week or two and make sure that is a deal breaker for you.

    Between the two layouts, it seems a choice between function and feel. Function in the kitchen vs. how the kitchen makes the rest of the apartment feel. It's not that one functions while making everything else in the apartment feel horrible and one doesn't function but makes everything else feel like a luxury palace. But each plan is slightly weighted in one direction. You'd just have to decide what your top priority is and what you'd rather compromise on.

    As a side note, I am surprised you wouldn't use the hinged counter. I thought you would particularly enjoy working or sitting at a big counter with a view of the garden. You'd asked for seating with a view initially. Like on a cold day, flip up the counter, heat up some soup, stirring while looking at the garden, and then sit there to eat it looking out at the garden. Seemed nice. Then you just flip the counter down when you are done.

    As a second side note, you'd be committing yourself to a long time without a kitchen, but if you absolutely can't make up your mind, you might gut your kitchen now so you can really mock up these layouts up in the space you have and get a real feel for them.

    This post was edited by Jillius on Mon, Jan 5, 15 at 16:42

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just wanted to add that gut reactions to things are often right. Sometimes you like or dislike things immediately for what seems like no reason, but studies have shown that there actually are subconscious, logical reasons guiding your reaction. You usually figure out what they were later.

    I had that reaction when I first visited my college campus when I was deciding where to go, and that college was indeed a really, really good fit for me. I didn't go there just because of that feeling of course -- I looked at all the programs and stuff too -- but that initial reaction was like a neon sign saying, "Hey! Look at this! MAYBE YOU SHOULD CONSIDER THIS. HINT HINT."

    You had a strong gut reaction to the wide galley layout when you saw it. It is certainly vastly better than anything the old KD suggested.

    I have never been in your space, and I will never live there, so I am sure there are things you know, subconsciously or consciously that I don't.

    I do think it is smart to parse your feelings here as you're doing, but this doesn't need to be an entirely unemotional decision. Sometimes emotions are logical.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for that last, Jillius. And for the rest of all of it, too.

    You know, if I could figure out how much of what went on in my mind (and not just about y kitchen!) was about pure emotion, and how much of it has actual underlying logic... I just want to be sure that if I make an emotional decision where I' choosing some level of form over function, that it is at least an honest & calculated compromise.

    What you say about contiguous counter space makes TOTAL sense. Do you remember one of my very early posts was titled something about contiguous counterspace? I wanted to know how important it really was. ;-) Above, you say "I suggested running the microwave wall counter through the pantry" I think I missed it when you suggested it & I'm not sure what you mean by it. I can't visualize it.

    btw - the microwave/trashpullout area in my OP gives me a 42" run of counter space, though I guess (?) having the microwave there makes the counter less usable. I was thinking that this area, with the microwave & fridge would be my "quick food" prep area - breakfast cereal/coffee/OJ/beverages/ microwaveables. And I could also keep some of my dishes/utensils over there (coffee mug, cereal bowls, glasses.)

    I just moved my 25 x 40 table into the LR, and had to put it on a diagonal to fit two chairs, which is odd looking. I think a round table would be much better for that spot - but I wonder if 30" is pushing it in terms of what would fit. I moved it back to it's old spot, since - even on diagonal - it obstructs my path to both the cabinet back there & to my thermostat control. Again, a 24" or 30" round might be better.

    The other "minor-ish" issues you mention are real, and I know it. Just want to say that. Yup. They don't bother me a huge amount, but they're there and I acknowledge that they're not ideal.

    I go into the basement once a day to clean the litter boxes - and on days like today, when I'm doing three loads of wash...Plus, now, with my coats, scarves, hats, gloves, umbrellas stored in the basement landing...I at least open that door... I know you had a solution for that. :-)

    I don't think I'd use the hinged counter for a couple reasons. One, is just pure, well, I don't know how to say this other than I just *feel* that I wouldn't. And I know that we're all capable of change, but, at almost 50, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing I'd use and I wouldn't want to block off the door even for the 30 minutes or whatever I'd be working there. Also, I really don't feel comfortable sitting at counters & bars. Every so often, at a friend's or at an actual bar I will sit at one, but it's never my choice.

    One side note from me (I think I'm a bit touchy these days,) my home is a house (albeit, connected to one other) and not an apartment.

    I so appreciate all the time and energy and encouragement from you and others. And I worry, sometimes, that I'll seem ungrateful and you'll just get tired of offering advice when I reject 8/10 things you say (but am so, so grateful for the 2 things I accept!) There's still so much advice and help I want, and what's you incentive if all you get from me is pushback?

    All that to say: thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you.

Sponsored
MAC Design + Build
Average rating: 4.3 out of 5 stars18 Reviews
Loudon County Full-Service Design/Build Firm & Kitchen Remodeler