Here's a point by point, just what I think though...

Kraftmaid:
"sink cabinet will have to be 36"
---What? Where's a link to the sink?

"the counters will be 30"
---This I don't understand. Did you want 30" countertops?

"The wall cabinets on the sides of the window will have to be 21"
--- makes sense because they're only a semi-custom line. They won't let you get a 24" and do a dimension change down to something a bit smaller?

"The Kraftmaid warranty reads:..."
--- Again. WHAT? Are they particleboard? I wish I'd kept the Kraftmaid spec book I had so I could see what's up with their hanging rails, or lack thereof. This sounds ridiculous. This means EVERY wall cabinet at the end of a run would have a voided warranty, unless you put something underneath it.

Custom:
--- His sink situation sounds more like the real world

"will be 28 1/2"
--- if they fully extend, you should be able to use them entirely.

Have you considered Bertch Legacy? They offer dimensional changes.

Based on the warrenty - they are telling you that their method of constuction is too light weight for larger uppers to be able to support themselves.

If you want to have deeper counters, it makes since to have deeper bases so you can use that space. As long as you have full extension slides (and they do make that that big) it's not a problem. I've got lots of big stuff and more room is always better.

Thank you, cabinfo and Macy.

Cabinfo, I do not have a link to the sink, we did not choose it yet. The KD at HD just said that "to be able to fit a double-bowl sink we need a 36" cabinet sink in the Kraftmaid brand. Any smaller size of sink cabinet only fits a single bowl." Down to what size of cabinet sink can be used with double bowl sinks?

THANKS for suggesting Bertch Legacy, I will look into that.

The countertops will be 30" deep.

I read the Kraftmaid warranty myself and wrote it down and that is what says for wall cabinets taller than 30" or deeper than 12".

Cabinfo, I agree with you, Kraftmaid themselves are saying their uppers cannot support themselves.

Is 5 years warranty standard for custom made (of a reasonable cost)?

Yes, the customs are full extend. THANKS AGAIN

I am replying partly to bump this and partly to share my experience. We went with custom frameless cabinets and we are very pleased. With your limited storage, I think you should definitely do frameless cabinets. Frameless cabinets give you more width in each drawer and more height, and it really makes a difference. I would get the inside drawer dimensions for both brands of cabinets, including usable height, if you haven't already. I think you will like the deeper drawer depth that the custom maker is offering. My base cabinets are the standard 24 inch depth, but I have drawers as large as 48 inches wide, and love them. The space is much more useable in larger drawers.

I am not sure of the sink base width. Do you know which sink you are getting? I think the standard sink base is 36 inches wide, but you can certainly go smaller. However, you will limit the sinks that you can choose from.

I would also get uppers that are deeper than the standard 12 inches if you go with the custom cabinets, especially since you will have deeper counter tops. This is often recommended on this site. Mine vary, but are mostly 14 inches deep.

Are you getting a cab over the fridge? I store trays, flat pans, cutting boards, and other flat things there. I love it. It's not too hard to reach the things in this cabinet since you only have to grab the bottom corner.

One last thing: I think you should shop around a bit more and include local cabinet makers. 10k seems high for 4 base cabinets and 5 uppers, but maybe I am missing something or maybe you have lots of fancy cabinet accessories. I am posting my layout and a couple of elevations, just to show you what I got for that 14k. I went with 3/4 inch furniture grade particle board, stained cherry, trash pullout, oil/vinegar pullout, 3 rollouts in the pantry with drawers on the bottom, a super susan corner for 14k, and all other base cabs drawers except sink and one other (a total of 20 drawers). Your custom drawers are deeper, though, and I have no idea how that affects the cost. And maybe your quotes are for a painted finish?

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Good luck!

Sink: We have a 35-1/8" wide sink in a 36" sink base and there were no modifications. Our KD told us any sink 1/2" or more narrower than the sink base will fit.

You want a 33" sink base, so you need to find a double-bowl sink that's 32-1/2" wide or less.

There are definitely double-bowl sinks that will fit in a 33" sink base.

How about this one?

Ticor S105R

Or one of these?
Ticor S1205
Ticor S305R
Ticor S103
Ticor TR1250 Tight Radius Corners

All say they will fit in 33" sink base. Note: I would avoid equal-sized or even close to equal-sized bowls, especially in a sink less than 36". Equal-sized (or close to) will most likely be too narrow for cookie sheets, etc. and too wide for small jobs. Choose a 70/30 arrangement, not 50/50 or even 60/40. Based on this, I recommend the first one I linked to. FYI...our bowls are 21.5" and 10.5" wide and I find them perfect for both small and large jobs.

I wonder if your KraftMaid KD has your best interests at heart or if he has his pocketbook in mind. Does a 36" sink base + 27" drawer base cost more than a 33" sink base + 30" drawer base? If so, I would question his motives. If not, I would question his knowledge and experience b/c he clearly doesn't know what's possible and what's available!

CabInfo...KitchenDreaming is talking about 30" deep work counters. Yes, they're a plus if you have the room for them, which KitchenDreaming does! I think she wants 30" - 1.5" deep cabinets...which are the 28.5" cabinets the custom cabinetmaker is willing to make.

As to a 5-year warranty on the custom...I question their construction if that's all they can warranty. Perhaps the cabinetmaker is quoting you for builder-grade construction with custom cabinet sizes? But, $10K seems like a lot for those few cabinets at builder-grade construction...it sounds more like high-mid to high-end. Why don't they warranty them for at least the 10 to 15 years they claim they will last? Omega, for example, has a lifetime warranty...both semi-custom & Custom. BTW...good cabinets should last at least that long...I would think more like 25 - 30 years. (I'm sure hoping mine will since I don't want to have to go through all of this again!)

What wood species are your cabinets? What finish? Upgrades (Plywood? Soft-close? Accessories? Details? etc.) These can drive up the cost of cabinets, sometimes doubling or more the original cost.

Thank you all again. Pudgybaby, Thanks for posting your layout. My quote
of 10K is for painted cabs. The charge for extra deep bases and wall cabs is 1700. Are you storing your trays vertically or horizontally over the fridge?
Buhel, thanks for the sink recommendations. I looked at the Ticor S105r and I really like the dimensions. I traced it on paper and it felt even bigger than the one we have now on a 36" cabinet. So the sink is settled: we are going with 33 " sink cabinet. Now all I need is a cabinet maker!

The 5 years warranty does worry us. It is five years on the box, and life on the hardware (Blum). Box and shelves are 3/4" furniture board, doors solid wood, painted. Full extension, soft close. No upgrades.

I will keep looking. One thing with local cabinet makers is, they might offer a good warranty, But there is always the risk they might go out if business, and then the warranty becomes useless..that was our reasoning for going with HD...What is your opinion about this?

Thanks for helping me...
Thanks for helping me. We do
I will keep looking.

If price is your priority I would look at IKEA rather than kraftmaid. The cabinets are good quality and would only be about $2000. They are also frameless but like Kraftmaid you would not be able to get a 33" sink cabinet or extra deep drawers or wall cabinets. Since your kitchen is small I would probably pay more money and buy the custom made extra deep drawers and wall cabs. Just make sure the drawers are extra deep and he is not just going to pull the cabinets out from the wall to make the counter deeper. Most people will use plywood or MDF for the center panel when painting a door because it is cheaper and more dimensionally stable. Solid wood can leave cracks between panels and rails/styles when the wood expands/contracts. If the cabinet maker is using Blum he probably is making a good quality cabinet but if you are worried about quality ask for references (one recent and at least 2-3 old references).

Thank you. Yes, I would like to explore custom. Isn't Blum standard now a days? I know they are very good, but it is what Ikea is using...

We are afraid, of what would happen if we go with a local cabinet maker, and he goes out of business. Thanks again.

Blum drawer runners that are the longest (deepest drawers) in the Tandembox series are only 4" longer than the Ikea version of Blum Tandembox drawer runners.

If in terms of "depth" you want height, buy the Ikea drawer which they call "deep", and screw onto it a front panel of the height you wish. That gives you the depth in the drawer (height).

Ikea does have wall cabs too.

Ikea guaranty is 25 years. Cabs and Blum hardware.

thanks, david. By depth I do not mean height, I mean the third dimension besides height and width... I love Ikea but they do not have the sizes that we need...

I went back to the custom place and I really, really love their cabinets...frameless, undermounted, a dream come true. Kraftmaid boxes are made out of 1/2" furniture board, the custom ones are 3/4". To be fair to National Forest I want to state that I learnt today that they offer: lifetime on the hardware AND lifetime on the drawer boxes. Everything else is 5 years. That seems a little better....

I think 10k is very high. I'm getting 17 semi custom frameless cherry cabinets, trash pullout, spice rack, all drawers for lower, 14" deep uppers, some other custom sizes for $10,300. It is a great price partly because of the place I'm buying - low overhead type of place but I did get other quotes for 12k. I suggest you get a few more quotes with semi custom lines before deciding.

gemini16,

yes, it seems high in comparison to what you got. But then, the 7000 dollars quote for the Kraftmaid at HD is also high? This price includes an offer for free paint until the end of the month.

It will help if you tell me what would be a reasonable price for the Krafmaid and for the custom, in your experience? And also another question, how about the warranty if you go to a local guy?

thanks!

it all depends on the size of your kitchen and how many cabinets and what types of cabinets.

my kitchen was much higher than both quotes you got and I'm going custom and getting the family rate.

just to comment on the construction. in general frameless cabinets are made out of 3/4 material and face frame cabinets are made out of 1/2 inch. they are generally thought of as similarly strong as the face frame cabinet has the face frame supporting it.

not that you can't build things stronger than standard.

does custom include install?

price really isn't that different, if you drop the deeper cabinets you're at about 8k vs 7k.

for me, it would come down to how happy I was with the fit and finish, and execution on the custom guy.

chrisk327 brings up a good point. Do your quotes include the installation? If not, they seem very high for the number of cabinets, even given the increased depths on the base cabs and the painted finish.

I bet it would be worthwhile (although time-consuming) to check around with some of the better known semi-custom cabinet makers, like Decora, Medallion, & Omega/Dynasty. Or a custom maker like Cabico for the frameless style. All of these offer a limited lifetime warranty and allow for incremental width/height/depth changes in the cabinet sizes.

Neither of the quotes include the installation. I take it that both quotes are high, then. I will continue looking. Thanks

Vertical tray storage over the fridge. Mine is a much like buehl's in the link below (scroll down about 1/3 of the way), except that I don't have the short horizontal shelf because my cabinet is not tall enough. I just have the vertical tray dividers. It really works great (I'm 5 foot 6).

The local cabinet maker going out of business is certainly a concern! My cabinet maker subbed out the doors to another guy, so I've got two guys that could go out of business. However, I suppose wtlegget/national forest products could go out of business, too. They don't sound like a huge operation, not that that affects whether they will go out of business or not. You might try starting a new thread asking for custom cabinet makers in your area. At least then you might get makers that others on the forum have been happy with, although they may not have had their cabinets very long.

I wish you the best of luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: tray divider over fridge thread

Pudgybaby, thanks for your good wishes. Great idea about the tray divider, I will certainly ask for one. Thanks for suggesting starting a new thread, I will do that. Best to you too.

I agree the quote seems high for your layout. Considering how few cabinets you have, frameless cabinets would really be best for your kitchen. We have a small kitchen and had frameless cabinets. When we remodeled, we installed framed and while they are beautiful, I still sometimes get frustrated but the smaller size of the drawers in the bases (we have all drawers). There are many frameless semi-custom cabinet companies out there. Below is a link to a thread that was posted long ago on cabinet manufactures and their websites. HTH

Here is a link that might be useful: Framed and Frameless Cabinet Makers

Seems to me the local guy (who has been around since 1886, according to his website) would have more accountability than the national chain to which you are just another dollar. I'd go local but just my 2 cents.

Chestnut3, thank you for the link. I have a lot of inquires to make!

I am surprised that even the quote for Kraftmaid at HD is considered high.
Just to make it clear, I have 3 bottoms which are all drawers, and the uppers are 15" deep rather than the more standard 12". Two of the uppers will have glass doors. Doors are wood painted white. All of this is included on the Kraftmaid price. Their quote of 7 K is after their "buy more save more" and free paint discounts.

The custom quote includes all of the above, except the cabinets are frameless, drawers are undermounted, and bases are 28.5" deep.
It seems that to get 28.5" drawers (depth dimension) I have to go costum.
I will definitely get more quotes. At this point warranty is more of a concern than cost.

Thank you for all the suggestions and help and good wishes, I will keep looking.

Is the glass included? If so, eliminate it. Glass shelves & doors are grossly overpriced when purchased via a cabinetmaker. Go to a local glass place for both. It may make a noticeable difference in your estimates!

For our kitchen, my KD was upfront with us and told us glass shelves & doors were ridiculously overpriced and recommended I not get them through her.

(Taken from one of my posts on a thread from earlier this month.)

Just a word of caution..."local (custom) cabinetmaker" is thrown around here a lot with the implication they are superior to the various cabinet manufacturers. They may be, but there is no guarantee. "Local custom cabinetmaker" does not necessarily equate to "high quality" or "low cost". There are many very good custom cabinetmakers out there, but there are many not-so-good ones as well. Just b/c someone is a "custom cabinetmaker" does not make him/her a good cabinetmaker. And, it's not just their skill at cabinetry...how are their business skills? E.g., How are they at meeting schedules? Do they stay within the cost they quote you? How do they deal with issues? What is their warranty? What recourse do you have if they drop the ball? Sometimes you can go "over the heads" of people at cabinet stores or even go to the manufacturer (at least for warranty issues), but you might not have that option with a local cabinetmaker.

If you go this route, be very diligent in your research:

• Contact several recent references, including at least one who had problems so you can see how s/he handled those problems. Ask about:

• How were they at keeping to the schedule they promised?

Did they stick pretty close to the cost estimate they gave them (no hidden fees, undeclared upgrades, etc.)?
Did they let them see a sample of their cabinet order for approval of the finish, quality, etc. prior to completing the entire order?
How did they handle construction issues?
How did they handle installation issues?
Contact several not-so-recent references, ask them how their cabinets are holding up (drawers, doors, finish, etc.). Try for some at least 5 years old and at least 10 years old.
See actual installed kitchens with the same type of cabinets you are looking for:

• Type: frameless, framed overlay (partial or full), inset

Wood species: cherry, maple, alder, oak, etc.
Finish: stained, glazed, painted
Construction details: Wall thicknesses, box material (plywood, MDF, etc.), interior finishes, box construction (joining, etc.), drawer construction, shelving, etc.
What is their warranty on their products? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Lifetime?

These are all the same questions you should ask of a manufacturing line as well, but all these things are usually spelled out somewhere and they have staff who specialize in these areas. You usually have some "standard" recourses if there are problems. In addition, their quality, including finishes and construction, are generally pretty consistent (yes, there are glitches occasionally) and they have the advantage for those finishes that are better when manufactured than when done by hand.

I'm not saying don't look into local cabinetmakers, I'm saying be careful. We have had several threads where people have gone this route and have had major issues in all the areas above...construction quality, finish...

I feel bad for starting the whole pricing discussion - sorry. I'm not sure if the Kraftmaid quote from HD is high, but I think so, especially if paint is free as this is often a big upcharge (I seem to remember numbers in the range of 30%). I got a quote from a Diamond dealer (Diamond are lower quality than Kraftmaid, don't know how much lower). I was given prices for each cabinet. A 27" 3 drawer base was $505, 36" sink base $342. I didn't have any 24" drawers. The uppers are cheap because only the doors are pricey: a 30 inch was $188. And increasing the box depth to 15" is not expensive. This doesn't include things like crown, light rail, fillers, end panels, etc, but only the end panels are pricey.

This quote was for stained maple. What type of wood are you getting quote for (even though it's painted)?

Buehl, The glass is included in the KMaid quote and is a $550 overcharge. I am glad the custom guy quoted for the doors cut so that I can install the glass, and told me where I can go to have them put the glass. That is one point in his favor!

Thank you for your list of questions to ask, I plan to follow your advise.

Pudgybaby, don't feel bad, au contraire! You started me thinking. HD did not give me things itemized and I have a right to that. Glass doors are $550 overcharge. Overcharge for 15" wall cabinets is 90 dollars each. I have two panels surrounding the refrigerator, a panel to cover the 6" gap if I go with Kraftmaid because the cabinets would just be pulled 6" to the front, and a panel between DW and wall to support the weight of the countertop.

I will do some market research before I settle on anything.

Best to all!

Just to make sure, if I want 28 1/2" deep bases, I have to go custom, right? That is the only reason I am going custom, to actually use the space behind the cabinets rather than putting a frame there...

thanks!

Hi kitchendreaming,

Someone mentioned it, but I'm not sure if you saw it. Your custom guy may be making the boxes deeper, but are the drawers deeper as well? And did you already say the drawer glides are FULL EXTENSION? Just something you should check on.

I think maybe you should get a couple more quotes, too. Do you have Lowe's near you, too? Mine is offering a free sink base with 10 cabinets as well as the paint free, AND soft-close doors AND a tiered discount.

When I was getting a quote at Lowe's, another couple was there that had negotiated a "deal" because HD had offered them "X", so the the Lowes manager gave them "Y".

This shouldn't be so hard, should it?! *sigh* Good luck!

hi SugarCookie

(nice username, it is making me hungry). Yes, they are full extension. The drawers will also be deeper, he is checking the exact dimensions. Thank you for pointing this out!

Just a couple of comments from a kitchen designer, if your sink is going to be undermount and it is 33" you will need a cabinet BIGGER than 33" to contain it. I don't see how you can do this even in custom. Maybe they could do 34" or 35"? It's really awkward to reach stuff on a 30" deep counter not to mention cleaning. 3/4" is definitely preferable for shelving. Another factor is the width of the cabinet. The wider you go the more likely you will have sagging. I'd say absolutely do not go over 36" wide if you're using 1/2" shelves.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchens for Living

Creative_glo,

thank you! I appreciate the advise from a kitchen designer point of view...The sink will be undermount, two bowls, on the 33" sink cabinet. The Ticor S105R seems to meet this specs...

I will have to simulate the 30" countertop again and practice how it feels, I know it will be akward to read the back, but worse is not to have enough countertop to set things down...Thanks for your advise, I will double-check on this...

I agree with others that those prices seem awfully high for that number of cabinets.

I had 29 cabinets, most of which were custom-sized, for about 17000. All 3/4" construction. One wall has 28" deep cabinets, and I really appreciate the extra depth of countertops, (as well as the extra deep drawers)

Bob,

do you mind telling me where you got your cabinets, which brand and what kind of warranty? Sorry for asking so many questions but it will really help...

Thanks!

Kitchendreaming,

I got my cabinets from Scherr's custom cabinets www.Scherrs.com . They do fully-custom ready-to-assemble cabinets. To be honest though, I have no idea what sort of warranty they offer. I know the hardware (drawer slides and hinges) has a lifetime warranty, but you could ask them or try to find out through their website.

-Bob

Kitchendreaming - just wondering what decision you finally made regarding the NFP Premio cabinets? We too are looking at this brand and though impressed with fit & finish, are wondering if they are worth the extra costs.

Hello we went with Ikea cabinets for a fraction of the cost. All the drawers are full extension, soft close. I love the style and they are still like new. We went with a completely different design, a U shaped with the sink under the big window.

IKEA cabs

Mont - were you originally considering NFP Premio prior to going with Ikea?

Hi, sorry, I do not recall... We looked at many designers and designs over a long time....