Question for the pros:

Rereading the fine print on Francy's contract, what do you all think of this part?

"....Should the stone break during cutting or fabrication, we will not assume the responsibiltiy (unless the damage occurred due to our mishandling of the stone) as the possibility of fissures not readily visible are a common occurrence in natural stone material, albeit not a frequent occurrence in good quality materials."

Do you think there is any circumstance in which the company would admit mishandling of the stone, when they could "stonewall", as it were, and say that it was a fissure that eventually broke, beyond their control, and their work was not to blame, so live with it?

Trying to think through worst-case and how Francy could handle it...

Okay, I can't resist responding even though I promised not to post anymore.

If these people whip out the contract and start parsing language and denying liability, then I think Francy should say, "I am very disappointed and surprised that this is how you deal with customers. If you are going to try to absolve yourself by pointing to a limitations of liability provision in our contract, then it is clear that I am going to have to speak with a lawyer. Which means that this whole episode is going to go in a very bad, unpleasant direction. I have saved for two years for this soapstone and I am not going to back down. I have to believe that we can resolve this without resorting to lawyers."

If it actually comes to a question of contract interpretation and liability (which it won't, because the amounts are just too small), someone will have to analyze the contract carefully. But from what you've quoted, I'm not impressed. :-) First, they can't just get away with saying they didn't mishandle it - the crack came from somewhere and the court can draw reasonable conclusions as to the likely cause. Second, as so many of you have pointed out, at this point it's not just as question of who's responsible for the crack; it's also a question of their responsibility to examine the stone and point out that the crack was there (if it was pre-existing). Third, we would argue that it's an adhesion contract. I'm sure there's more but these are my off-the-cuff thoughts.

(It seems like these guys are not specialists in soapstone, and that the contracts were drafted with granite in mind. I'd be curious what Joshua's and Kevin's contracts say about cracks/fissures.)

Francy, you need to remember that you have the upper hand because you haven't paid the 50%. That's your leverage. If you were dealing with honorable people like Kevin and Joshua, this wouldn't be factor, but with these guys it seems like it is. I know I shouldn't judge until I hear how it goes today, but the more I think about how they likely concealed the crack and worse, how they *argued* with you on the phone, saying it was a natural part of the stone *without having seen it*, the madder I get. Their first reaction when you called should have been, "Oh, no, Ms. Bayareafrancy, we are so sorry to hear there is a problem. We will be out there as soon as we can to try to resolve it." That would have put you in frame of mind where you would have considered a reasonable compromise. But the way they have handled it is so insulting and off-putting, and is just plain bad customer service.

aunt, I really appreciate your answer and feel better about Francy's chances--and Francy, I hope you read aunt's response in case they do try to whip out that contract language you quoted. I have now learned a new term for the day: adhesion contract :) Thanks!

Mr Aunttomichael Esq. is way more qualified than I am on the contract language -
as he is the real deal when it come to the legal stuff - you
have my respect sir, and thank you for your kind remarks.

I did not go to law school, or para-legal school -
(I went to Para-MEDIC school when I was in the Army
back in the Vietnam days of the early 70's if
that counts - which in this case - I'm sure it does NOT.. ha!
just a little levity there...)

I am just a Fabricator, BUT, I have been an expert witness
in enough cases to have learned that WHEN a contractor's
work is dependent on another's work or finish - the
contractor in question ACCEPTS the integrity or lack thereof
of the surface he is setting his tops on.

Example Illustration:

1. Francy had less than perfect cabinets that we will
presume had a "high spot" in the assembly -
to the right of the sink.
2. Countertop Contractor INSTALLS his tops on the cabinets -
ACCEPTING their quality AS IS -
without remedying the "high spot".
3. Countertop cracks over "high spot" as a result of the
"high spot" acting as a fulcrum in relationship to the plane of the countertop.
4. IMHO - Fault lies with the Countertop Contractor for setting HIS work on the faulty cabinetry.
WHY the cabinets were faulty and/or who's at fault
is inconsiquential to the issue at hand.

When you accept a bad substrate to install your
work on, you take responsibility for your work
AND the bad substrate.

This is a pretty commonly accepted pricipal in construction
logic - kind of like the "garbage in - garbage out" theory.

just my .02 cents worth - but Francy -
IMHO - the fault here does not lie with you....

If they are honorable,
they will fix this without delay
or added cost to you.

kevin

Kevin M. Padden MIA SFA
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Industry
www.azschoolofrock.com

Ok, they just left. They were here for about 45 minutes, and they were extremely kind and sympathetic.

Bottom line, for those of you who are at work, busy, etc. yet obsessed with my crack (can you tell I enjoy saying that?): The crack was original to the slab. And they were able to darken it to black so that you can't really see it.

Long story:

We got the scraps: the crack WAS in the original slab. It is a fissure. A really unfortunate one, as it is basically in the middle of the slab (not to the edges), but b/c of the way we did the layout, we ended up with the crack front and center, right through to the edge.

I can't figure out how to draw on this photo, but here is the layout. On the right side, see how there is a long rectangular piece at the top, and under it is the right side of the sink?

On that sink piece, see the X made with masking tape across that piece of wood? The crack starts right about there (under that wood, or next to it), and extends through that whole piece down into that whitish area (that looks like a galaxy). Then it stops, and it doesn't go all the way to the edge of the slab.

We are really unlucky. It was an honest mistake. When the Santa Barbara is gray, it is a hairline white line that is easy to miss. There are lots of little white streaks on the Santa Barbara, and they typically turn black when you oil them (unlike, say, Black Venata, where the lines stay white against a black background). We would need Joshua here looking at the pieces to say whether or not they should have seen it, and alerted me. Honestly, I think even Joshua could have missed it. The guys clearly felt bad about it. They pretty much agreed that they wouldn't use it in their showroom. But I don't want to have a big fight about it. We'd need to fly joshua out here to look at the original crack. Who knows if they should have seen it. I can only see it on the scrap because I know where it is.

If we could go back in time, we would oil the entire slab before fabrication. Then maybe M. Tex would have replaced it for us. At the very least, we could have changed its location. But we didn't.

LESSON LEARNED: OIL YOUR SLAB. Soapstone changes a lot when oiled. Water looks VERY different from oil. OIL IT people!!!!!!!!! I didn't oil our, because that takes time, and I never want to be a pain in the a$$.

The good news: they practiced on the "scrap crack" first. Then they cleaned it with acetone, and applied this black dye type goop. The crack turned black!!! Which is all I want: A BLACK CRACK! I don't care if I have to dye it once a week. And of course, that will be the tricky thing with soapstone: it is non porous. So the dye won't be a permanent fix. But that's ok. All I care about is that it is POSSIBLE to make it black. So now, while I can still see it, it is in the category of "only the TKO would notice it." I don't think a casual observer will. And I can't see it from across the room, as I could before. So, WHEW! They left me with a tube of the dye, and one of the guys gave me his personal phone number and said he'd come back and dye it again if I needed him too.

I suppose I could still call M. Tex. But suppose they said they would redo it all for me (ha--they never would--but just suppose). Then my beautiful runnels with the gorgeous vein going across them would end up in a landfill. At this point, I feel very attached to that vein.

So it is open season on my crack! I'm loading up on jokes and geological explanations, in case anyone ever dares to criticize my crack!

Francy

Whew,

Now I can get back to my life! It's all your fault Francy, you and your crack- yup that's why I'm still sitting here in my nightie, and GG it's almost noon hour!

Enjoy the rest of your day- bet you're gonna take a nap, cuz I'm guessing you didn't sleep very well last night!

Thanks for keeping us informed.

Are you okay with the outcome here, Francy? You don't want to follow-up with M Tex? Is there a concern about structural integrity? I won't give unsolicited advice but if it were me, I'm not sure I could rest until I spoke (at least) with M Tex.

But if you are happy and can live with and love your stone, then I am happy and relieved for you. And yes, grateful that I start thinking about something other than your crack. (I have twin 8-year olds so I get the joke very well.)

Hey, I want to see a photo of the fixed crack! Do you have one? As with the others, I feel so invested in this crack of yours. :)

I'm glad you are satisfied with the outcome, though I do hope (as Aunttomichael says) that you are REALLY okay with it and not convincing yourself that you are okay with it.

It still seems to me that during fabrication they should have noticed this issue, but I am certainly no stone expert and I do not have SS.

I do have Verde Butterfly and I, too, have a fissure that I am living with. It is longer than I would like, and I wish it were in a different location (say, on a perimeter wall turned toward the back side under the appliance garage!), but Verde Butterfly has fissures and that is part of the natural beauty of stone. And I am living with it. After the first few days I stopped noticing it every time I walked by. I know it is there, but I also know it is not a structural issue and so it shouldn't get worse. It is fairly tight and I doubt a regular person would think twice about it or even notice it in the first place.

Thank you for keeping us posted, since I have been checking in every couple of hours for the past few days for updating. My DH certainly thinks I am insane!

One more thing. If you decide not to pursue it with M Tex, I still think that the fabricators should give you an adjustment in their price. I know you say it's an honest mistake, and anyone could have missed it, but really, as others have said, they are the professionals and they should have examined every inch of that slab carefully. I understand that you've decided not to get into a fight with them and force them to replace the slab, but in exchange for that concession, they should give you a substantial discount. They will agree to this without much argument, I suspect.

I still think there is a strong possibility that M Tex would replace that piece (talk about a drop in the bucket for them), in which case I'll bet that you'd be able to get the fabricators to install it for free. Again, I'm not sure I could drop it if it were me, but it's not, and I need to shut up now, don't I? :-)

I agree, aunt...I was thinking that as I read. As kind and sympathetic as they were, they didn't even offer a discount even though they admitted it's not up to their professional standards? I'd call M.Tex as well. I'm glad it can be "fixed", but it's not really right yet...what they did then was exactly what I was posting about, saying it was a fissure and thus they weren't responsible even for finding it when they were working. In a kind and sympathetic way, of course...

Ultimately, it's up to you and you need to be satisfied. Whatever makes you satisfied is what's right for you.

HA! And you love the vein across the runnels! Wasn't this the "blotch" that you were so worried about?

Toldja you'd love it.

Vicki, feeling smug.

Yup, Flyleft, you called this one exactly right. :-(

Francy, I'd toss that tube of black dye into the garbage can and get on the phone with M Tex and back again at those fabricators until my counter was replaced. But now I am going to log off for awhile because I think I am crossing the line into being non-helpful. This is about you and not me, and the important thing is that you are happy with your kitchen and your decisions. No matter what you do, it is clear from all the responses to this post that you have a lot of people on this forum rooting for you.

Another stoner chiming in.

I am in agreement with the above posters who suggest that the fabricators give you a price adjustment.

If it is substantial enough, say, the 50% you still owe them, use that $$ to buy something wonderful for your kitchen that will offset, in your mind, the now-invisible crack.

Our fabricators templated with the sink template FLIPPED, so the small bowl was not on the proper side. In rectifying the situation, they were forced to seam oddly in a corner. We have a piece the size and shape of a 1' ruler jigsawed in one of the corners of the "U" of the countertops.

It is not ideal, but oiled, I would defy anyone but me to tell it was there. The seams are butted tightly with dark epoxy and though there are few veins in the stone, they were careful to line up the faint vein exactly, and it is the best of a bad situation. And, it is in a corner.

As a concession to their mix-up, they knocked some (we have 48 linear feet of countertop that was done perfectly- couldn't ask for much) off our install. We bought barstools with the windfall and never looked back.

Yours is in a far more visible location, and while it would be nice for them to write off the remainder of the amount owed, remember that if they do, they will feel NO obligation to come out later and fix/repair if something else happens.

Best of luck!

Oh, Francy! I hope you get this taken care of, and with more than a tube of goo. I know you hate confrontation, but I have to say that I think you should at least call M. Tex. If they're not willing to do anything for you, your fabricators (who are trying to blame it on M. Tex -- shame on them) should at least give you a reduction in the fabrication costs since they didn't tell you about it (maybe that would have made you place your cutouts differently). I think they tried to fob you off with a tube of black goo, and that's not right.

Well carp!

Jooooooooshua: do you know the kind of hairline fissure I'm talking about? Would you always catch em? Should M. Tex have caught it?? They are the soapstone experts, right???????????

Who's calling M. Tex for me??

I have to go to my son's school now, but if I get home in time, I'll call them today.

Carp.

Francy

Francy, don't call today. You are exhausted and enervated right now. Take the rest of the day off and put off the next step on the fissure until tomorrow morning.

I am thinking that maybe you should send an email first, with pictures and an explanation. Then say that they should let you know when would be a good time for you to call to discuss. It is much easier to put everything in writing. Do you have a contact at M Tex?

Francy- Your crack saga has become a soap opera for those of us that keep checking in to see how it all unfolds. I have to admit every time I walk past my laptop- I check to see what the latest is. Just a few words of encouragement: Call M. Tex- what's the worst that can happen, you may always regret it if you don't. Don't be left with a big "IF ONLY I'D..."
The guy who gave you his home number- do you think maybe he's feeling guilty because he should have noticed something like this? Oh and one more thing- I dealt with the M Tex in NJ- but when we were picking our slab- I distinctly remember the guy who was showing them to us saying how he could tell the difference between veins and other things in unoiled stone. If this is true, your fabricators should have at least worked around it when doing the template. I would think they at least owe you a bit of a discount. I can understand living with the crack, and dying it- but not getting a price break?? You at least deserve that for all your trouble. Or you can call the guy at home and ask him to dye your crack every week- then maybe he would wish he'd given you the discount- and not his home number :)

I want to weigh in here briefly and "stir the puddin" a bit.

Bay area, this is what happens when you the homeowner are allowed to purchase the material directly.

He states in his disclaimer straight out , he is not responsible. It sounds as if he has been more than gracious trying to work with you finding a solution.

Joshua will need to advise you if the Black dye will work.

Bottom line is he cut your material. did he miss the crack,maybe. did it occur while handling??? Is he liable now, I do not believe he is, and I know the storm of criticism is going to follow.

This is why we We strongly recommend getting an installed price material and labor. Then IF this occurs, you have every right to refuse it, and he MUST do so.

Kevin armed you with all the information to register a complaint. I do not believe you should.

Only my opinion.

Blessings

A little levity is always welcome at a time like this - thanks Polly!

As for the situation as it currently stands, I would have to agree that getting a price break from the fabricator would be fair. I also agree that getting in touch with M.Tex would be a good idea. That said, I do recall you mentioning in a past post that you bought the stone quite a while ago and I'm unclear as to who has had possession of the stone all this time. M.Tex will probably say that their responsibility for the stone ended when it was removed from their premises. Your saving grace, however, is that the fissure/crack did NOT run to the end of the stone. If it did, they could argue that as far as they know, someone dropped it or damaged it in some way after it left their premises. But (if I understand correctly) the crack/fissure was INTERNAL to the stone (i.e., never ran to it's edges) so that any sort of dropping of the stone probably would cause the weakest points to break (the edges) and not the smack dab center of the stone. This, in my mind, only mitigates but does not eliminate the responsibility the fabricator had when they were fabricating SS with a visible (you saw it but ignored it at first) flaw.

I have to agree with AunttoMichael that writing an email to M. Tex is a great way to go. As a retired atty myself, I do find that I am more eloquent and much more concise when I write. I think this is the case for most people. That way you can edit (always critical) and, since the person will get the email before you call they will be prepared and hopefully be less defensive.

Again, good luck. Boy do I feel for you! I may be an attorney, but I also hate confrontation (I was not a litigator!), and I understand how hard it can be to put yourself out there. Like everyone said, what is the worst that can happen at this point?

Here's sending positive thoughts your way!

Francy, I have just sent you an email through your Garden Web page. Please let me know if you don't get it. (For everyone else, it's a suggestion about contacting M Tex.)

VRJames - I am curious about this. The place I selected my stone has the same policy as you just described. I selected my stone, but I had to have chosen a fabricator who then went to pick up the stone and (my understanding was) it is all actually priced through the fabricator. I was baffled at the time as to why it is done this way. I realize that all stones are different, so some are more expensive to fabricate even if they are common stones (thus, the $$ you saved buying more common material might be offset by the increased price to fabricate). Is this decided on a case by case basis after the fabricator looks at the individual stone (my fabricator was not there at selection). That didn't seem to be the case. As a consumer it almost seemed a bit veiled. You couldn't just find out a $$ for the stone itself, though they were grouped in "grades." I must admit it seemed like a somewhat "shady" practice even though this is a major company with great recommendations.

As for this particular situation, I'm not sure I understand how or why it would turn out differently unless you are saying that the supplier should also be the fabricator. Assuming you are not saying that, then the scenario is: the supplier has the stone, the consumer picks the stone, the fabricator picks up the stone, the stone gets fabricated and there turns out to be a crack in a bad location. Someone fixes it (hopefully). In this case, why would it matter whether Francy paid you directly (supplier) or the fabricator (assuming they are not the same) - and then the fabricator pays the supplier? Is it only because they have a business relationship and have come to terms with what happens (financially) when stuff happens?

I really am just curious. No doubt I am missing something (this is my first kitchen remodel and first time dealing with stone). THANKS!

I would have caught it. That's what you pay me for. You can see it in the pictures! ! I know where to look but you def see it. They should have caught it.

M Tex could have missed it. This stone has been such a solid stone free of fissures for a really long time. It was at the bottom of the slab and not eye level. Also you have to imagine you suppliers usually don't run their hands along every square inch of the stone like the fabricators do. Your fab guys may be really nice and understanding but they should have caught it. . . No excuses that's their job, it's what you pay the pro's for. They should have spotted it and you prob could have avoided it if you laid the stone out differently. . . They need to be held accountable for their negligence. . . M. Tex would have owned up to this issue, but after the fact it should be the fabricators responsibility.

Francy, I have nothing of value to add. You have a lot of experienced people advising you. I just wanted to comment on the extraordinary support you've received. When I just checked, you had 113 replies---maybe more by the type I finish typing this. I think it's wonderful that so many people are rallying to help you. I hope you end up with a resolution that leaves you completely satisfied. Hopefully, before too long, this will all just be a bad memory.

The only experience I have with soapstone fabrication is with the person who did my flawless installation, Tom Shadley, of Shadley's Soapstone. I distinctly remember he said that he checks the slabs for breaks, cracks, etc. and will not use a slab that has any. He even showed me one that he said he would not be able to use. His care and concern for every facet of soapstone installation are quite evident every day when I or anyone else views my counters. I would accept no less from any other fabricator, regardless of the type of stone used.

As for the black dye - I don't get that solution. Soapstone doesn't absorb anything so how is that a fix? Now if they are going to mix it with the epoxy, that's different. But just to apply a dye every now and then seems mickey-mouse.

I'm with those who say to speak to M. Tex and see what solution they suggest. I know you've been through a lot and you must just be ready to say "whatever!" at this point but you shouldn't have to be applying some dye carp to that beautiful stone!

Like francy, I would be ambivalent about demanding the stone be replaced. She bears some of the responsibility, in that she bought the material herself. If she had purchased the material through the fabricator, they probably would've added their markup on the material in order to cover exactly these types of situations.

Sure the material was "flawed" in one sense, but now that it's been cut up into a half-dozen pieces, can you really feel morally "right" about asking M.Tex for another one? "Oh sorry I destroyed the first one, but it had a crack so I want another one for free." Or can you feel right about asking the fabricator to treat you as if they had provided the material when they very specifically warned against exactly this thing? Clearly some of you do, but I would have some strong reservations.

Personally, I would chalk it up to lessons learned and get used to using the dye. Or if I really felt strongly about replacing it, I would see if some arrangement could be reached - but that arrangement would include me being willing to pay part of the cost of replacement.

Oh boy, do I feel depressed! I think I feel worse about letting you all down, then I do about my black crack!

Joshua: I didn't do a very good job of describing the crack location. It can't actually be seen in that photo of the layout--it isn't that big vein. It is a hairline vertical crack, and it's probably located right under that vertical piece of wood. Or it is right next to it. I could see it on the scrap piece from about 2 feet away, but any farther, and I wouldn't have seen it. All that said, you may well have found it. I'm very disappointed that M. Tex didn't find it.

For those who asked about the timeline: I went to Creative Stoneworks in august and asked if they could get stone from M. Tex. They said they used to, but no longer dealt with them (b/c of difficulties). They offered to try to get the slab for me at their price. They called M. Tex, who said "no" to any discount for dealing directly with Creative Stoneworks. So, I selected my slab. Then, I gave a check (made out to M. Tex), to Creative Stoneworks, and they drove there, paid for my slab, and took it to their warehouse. Kinda ironic, because although technically I supplied the stone, all I did was point to the slab I wanted. The 2 companies handled all the rest. I didn't see the slab again until December, when I went to do the layout.

I wonder if I should email Creative Stoneworks this thread. Or M. Tex? What do you think?

Here's a funny thought. My "kitchen curse" has gone like this:
1. Get brother in law to build cabinets. Cabinets are no good; have to replace them. Put brother-in-law cabs in the basement.

2. Splurge on fireclay sink. Sink quickly develops numerous pits in the front edge. Company won't stand behind it. Dear husband actually buys me another fireclay sink. Pitted sink goes into the basement.

3. [hypothetical] Get soapstone counter. It has a crack/fissure. Replace it. Put old counter pieces in the basement.

My basement is like the Bermuda Triangle of Kitchen Curses. I could get an entire (crappy) second kitchen going in my basement! Too bad we don't keep kosher!!

All I can say it, my gorgeous, perfect dishwasher panel had better not fall off!!!!!

Francy

"Oh sorry I destroyed the first one, but it had a crack so I want another one for free."

Destroyed? A bit exaggerated, don't you think? NO one has suggested destroying anything and then asking for something free. As for the dye, that is just silly. Why should someone have to keep dying a crack in their brand new counters, regardless of who's fault it may be. Besides, it won't work - soapstone is non-porous.

Francy, you are too funny. : ) It's wonderful that you can keep your sense of humor through all this. And please, don't feel you've let any of us down. We're here for you, whatever the outcome. We're Stoners, cracks and all. : )

Well, at least the courts have now decided that sentencing guidelines for crack should be the same as for...oh, that's not your crack problem.

I don't know what you should do about your crack. Are you at least confident it'll be stable? I don't suppose you could fill it with white goo and pretend it's a vein....nah. At least ask the SS distributer what they'd recommend.

What's in the tub of dye? Is it labeled?

Maybe you could build your imperfect kitchen in the basement with your refrigerator, and just keep the nice one upstairs for looks! :-)

Francy,

Out of curiosity, why didn't you use Teixeira to fabricate the stone?

Francy...I am amazed that you are retaining your sense of humor...keep that chin up and fight this with the fabricators and M-Tex. They count on people not fighting and accepting their product as is.

Francy - you are the best! I wish you lived down here in SoCal so I could come over and give you a hug and get a good laugh all at the same time. You are too damn funny! Good thing because, truly, you need a sense of humor to deal with this remodeling chaos!

BTW, are you still friends with the B-I-L??? :)

""Oh sorry I destroyed the first one, but it had a crack so I want another one for free."

Destroyed? A bit exaggerated, don't you think? NO one has suggested destroying anything and then asking for something free. "

What's the value to the vendor when you return their product in pieces? They might be well-cut and nicely shaped pieces, but it's still in pieces. If the vendor was willing to give me a 50% discount on another piece, I'd happily take that deal. I wouldn't expect a replacement for free, though.

At this point, I just want my husband to quit calling me from work, asking, "Hi honey, how's your crack?"

Sharon: I chose a different fabricator for a few reasons: 1. I just wasn't wowed by the seams and cuts that I saw in the showroom at M.T., or that I saw in online photos. 2. They couldn't fit me in for a while (turned out to not matter as I had a 5 month delay). 3. They were mostly unknown to me, but an acquaintence had used Creative Stoneworks and was very pleased with them. So that's why I went that route.

Fori: I don't know what's in the goo (words are rubbed off the tube). It is some kind of epoxy coloring paste. Probably made in China, with lots-o-lead. I tried some sharpie marker in my crack (did I just type that?????), and I think it has more staying power than the goo.

Thanks socal! We saw the b-i-l at thanksgiving, but I forbade my husband from mentioning the kitchen to him. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. What could he have done? Offer to pay us back? He needs the money more than we do. Add it my list of "oh well..."

Given the teeny width of this crack/fissure, and that it was hiding below eye level in a giant slab, I just don't feel like the fabricator should be battled with. Ideally, they should have seen it. But they didn't.

But M. Tex? They are the experts on soapstone. Why did they sell me a substandard slab? Seems that if anyone owes me 50%, it would be them! Boy, that would be delightful! Then I could finally get my "dream hood" that I'm holding out for!

I'll show y'all my tinted crack tomorrow (I need to get pictures in the daylight).

:-)

Francy

ps THANKS AGAIN EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Substandard", Francy, Stone is a natural product, sometimes cracks and fissures are in a stone.

Socal, in response to your query, If you buy a slab direct, the only advantage is to the Stone Supplier. They will charge a homeowner a "retail" price and make as much as 50% more for the material. The horror stories I have heard and attitudes from fabricators could fill an entire blog. Just like this one, only Creative Stoneworks actually had a contract, and are being considerate of Francy's feelings.

The short version is, a good fabricator will add %10 to the cost of the material on every job. In stone handling, this type of issue Breakage, undesirable crack, miscut occurs in 20% of the jobs. The 10% add in material cost in every job allows the fabricator to buy another slab when thes "Murphy's" occur.

So for a hypothetical, If Francy paid $30 a sf for the material, her fabricator, if they had done a good bit of business with the supplier, could have paid between $22 and $25. Marked it up to $27 into the cost of the job and been 100% responsible for this.

Buying the material direct saves you nothing and you accept most of the liability.

Oi Francy! I didn't get a chance to read yesterday and so reading this morning, experienced the emotional roller coaster from hilarity to despair that has characterized this event that began with the appearance of the infamously evil black crack! I don't have any advice to add, but just want to say that I think that I can both relate and empathize with how you feel.

You have already had to eat the cost of the cabinet re-do, the sink, and now are facing a possible counter re-do. I do hope that you get Mtex to give you another slab or a piece or something...and of course it's on the side with the runnels. That really sucks, and then there's the risk of damaging the sink and counters.

With our kitchen remodel we ate the cost of the following mishaps:

1) Contractors cut square openings in 2 very prominent places in our our 85 year old Douglas Fir floors. The floor boards are old growth fir and they are single planks that span the entire kitchen without any cuts. We feel that any patches would be noticeable so choose to cover with oak.
Outcome: $800 floor refinishing becomes $2500 new oak floor

2) Contractor doesn't want to be responsible for tile installation but had a recommendation for someone that he uses in his own house. We use his rec. but the guy does a poor job. We suck it up and hire someone else to demo and re-tile.
Outcome: $700 tile becomes $1400.

3) Breakfast nook benches are built incorrectly and do not fit space (built according to the contractors measurements) I had negotiated a $300 reduction in the original quote. Contractor is a real weasel here and won't admit to his mistake. I feel sorry for the cabinet maker who has to rebuild them and I agree to pay him the $300. In my view of it I lost the $300, but the contractor has lost my recommendation and I have had 2 friends already who were interested in using him.
Outcome: $1100 benches become $1400 benches

So that's $2700 extra that we paid because I was tired of fighting and my husband was reluctant to enter the fray.

We were lucky with the soapstone, and I second Angelcubs recommendation for Tom Shadley for anyone who lives in the Los Angeles area. His work was flawless (can't even see the seam behind the sink) and he's a nice guy to boot.

Francy,

I, too, have been silently following your soapstone saga and I'm sorry you have had to endure more drama.

I'm curious about the structural/safety issue. The tube of black goo may hide the crack but it won't stop it from getting worse and it won't shore up the integrity of the stone. Did they reassure you that the crack (fissure?) is purely a cosmetic issue and doesn't pose any kind of structural or safety risk?

vrjames: the reason I chose to call it "substandard" is because apparently 2 soapstone experts, Tom Shadley and Florida Joshua probably wouldn't have used it. Now, of course, they haven't actually seen the stone. So this is conjecture. Soapstone is a different beast from granite. And Santa Barbara seems to be a differents beast within the beast that is soapstone. Too bad it is so very even and regular.

Decodilly: I forgot about your tile job! But I didn't know about the fir floor! OMG! I would have been heartbroken. I just love my fir floor! Your poor floor! Oh, give it a gentle pet for me. Misery loves company, and that story makes me feel better. My goodness: you have had a really tough time too!! Try to have a glass of wine or something at about 9pm tonight, and I'll drink a toast to your floor, and my counter!

Francy

I too have been following along. (Planning on Soapstone for my on kitchen)

"I'm curious about the structural/safety issue."
I was wondering the same thing. Will you run into problems with the crack/fisrure completely splitting based on the fact that it is directly above your DW.

Hope this all works out.

Jenn

Francy,

In my old kitchen I had a soapstone island that was roughly 7 x 4. I chose the slab in person at the stoneyard from the "stone guys" that my GC used -- I didn't know that soapstone had names, I just chose the one I liked. My only request is that I preferred less movement and the one vein that was there be cut around as much as possible and definitely do not put that piece on the island (use it somewhere else on the L perimeter)

Of course the large vein goes on the island, but veins grow on you and I decided I liked it. Maybe first week kitchen was done, I'm sitting at the island and I notice a crack -- I almost threw up. Was it the weight? Was it not installed properly, Were the brackets not right? Did I sit on it? I just could not deal. I'm not sure I even told my husband. I did not call the fabricators (same stone guys) I finally had my kitchen back -- I didn't want to rip everything up. It never became anything more. It was probably the size of yours but did not come to the edge and you could not feel it.

I did stop feeling ill about it. It was fine.

This time, this kitchen I think I will bring up the question before I sign or sign off on anything . . . then again I may just want it to be over alread (actually we haven't even picked a layout and I want it to be over already :-)

I thought if the photo of your crack was posted I might get some work done today (organizing my holiday stuff). But since it isn't, I might as well go to the gym so I can say I accomplished something. : )

Good luck Francy.
Susan

Yes! A toast at 9:00 for the counter, the floor and all of the other small tragedies that seem to come right along with updating! I was really sad about the fir. We do have it in one of our bedrooms and it is really pretty.

We also had to replace all of the oak floors in the front main rooms of the house because the previous owner destroyed them. Before he added wall to wall carpet he drilled hundreds of screws through them, I guess to stop them from squeaking. Some of them were even bolted under the house.

It was the first old house floor that our floor guy found to be completely unsalvageable and we had the luck to get it! So 2 positives are that the new floor in the kitchen matches the new floors in the adjoining dining room and hallway, and that the floors are really beefy and will outlast us!

One fissure does not make the whole slab bad, I would have just laid out the kitchen differently. And maybe talked with the stone supplier to get that part of the stone refunded. Say some sq. ft. taken off the overall slab price. If I couldn't have used the corner, that corner would not have been charged for. Obviously I would document with pictures for my case.

The fissure I thought I saw in the pic was to the right of the two water dots on the bottom. . . It may not be and it may just be a scratch, sorry for assuming.

Remember your Fabricators are professionals too, don't pin it on just one person. You shouldn't have let your fabricators off completely, you should talk with everyone to come to a final conclusion.

If it was there when you moved in, you'd have found it a charming bit of character.

It's the having paid for perfect soapstone that's the problem! Argh. Good luck and don't be meek!

Sorry to keep this going, but I'm curious to know whether you're going to call M Tex. I have the feeling you'd rather let sleeping dogs lie so you don't have to deal with the possibility of ripping anything out, but it sure would be nice if they could refund some of your money.

I'm curious too -

Dear Francy and Ben:

If M. Teixeira Soapstone had been responsible for templating, fabricating and installing your countertops, we would definitely replace your tops, or better yet, ensured to never have installed a cracked material to begin with.

From what you are describing, the slabs were purchased in August and only installed 6 months later, who knows how it was stored, how many times it was moved around, how it was handled, was it hit with a fork lift, cracked then repaired?There are just too many possibilities here.

We, as professional and exclusive soapstone fabricators, would not ever have worked with a cracked slab or installed a countertop after it was cracked, even if it was cracked in transit on the way to your home.

The fabricator/installer is fully responsible to inspect the material before it is installed or fabricated. Should this slab had been cracked originally, the fabricators responsibility would have been to contact the supplier(M.Teixeira) immediately to get the slab replaced.
Unfortunately we cannot be responsible for products that left our warehouse 6 months ago, specially if they were stored and fabricated by a third party, for the reasons explained above.

Because I am a human being, and can understand your frustration, I will authorize a considerable discount on another slab, should your fabricator decide to replace it. The Santa Barbara is our most expensive and least available material, it is a rare stone that is no longer being quarried, although we still have some stock left in our NJ and CA warehouses.

Feel free to call me directly toll free at 877-478-8170, should you need further assistance.

Sincerely,

Rogerio M. Teixeira
M. Teixeira Soapstone
SOAPSTONES.COM

What a man, what a man. Now on to the fabricator! Francy, this is really very considerat and professional of M. Texieira to read about their company online and respond. I am very impressed. I just hope your fabricator is willing to honor their part in this situation.

Francy-

VERY CLASSY RESPONSE from Rogerio at M. Teixeira...

Many other suppliers would not have even bothered to
make a reply - let alone give you the response that he did.

And he's right... HOW can he be held responsible for a slab
that sat in who knows where for 6 MONTHS?

KUDOS to Rogerio & M. Teixeira!!!

Hopefully, your Fabricator will step up to the plate
and take care of the situation for you. and IF they DO.
let's give them kudos too for do the right thing - albeit,
a little late in the game, but just the same - the right thing...

my .02 cents worth

kevin

Kevin M. Padden MIA SFA
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Industry
www.azschoolofrock.com

Thank you for your reply here, and your email Roger. I really appreciate your help in this matter.

Note to all: I contacted the fabricator last Friday, and M. Teixeira over the weekend. The fabricator was angry that I discussed this matter on GardenWeb, though my husband assured him that I have been very, very fair to his company, and have not slandered his company in any way.

I will forward Roger's offer to the fabricator. But I fear that they will maintain that the crack was preexisting. Of course, there is no way to prove when the crack happened. Because of it's apparent location on the slab ("interior" to the slab, hairline, and not extending to the edges), it is hard to see how it happened after it was in storage (for about 4.5 months). But this is guesswork.

I don't know how much the fabricator will be willing to help me. But I will ask.

It is ironic that my tiny little kitchen could be the center of so much drama. The total cost of my little job to the fabricator was less than 2000.00. But it is money that we have spent. And we don't have any more. As you GW'ers know by now, we have been slowly saving and working on this kitchen for 2 years. It is ironic, to say the least. (And I could just kick myself now for picking such a rare stone! *kick*)

I wish we could afford to have M. Tex come in and replace the stone. I'm nervous about continuing to work with the fabricator if their hearts are not in it, so to speak.

I'll keep you all posted...
Francy