Yes. I'm divorcing him.

*ALWAYS* listen to your gut. Don't blow off the little things here and there. Those little things are just the tip of the iceberg. I wasted a lot of my life by not realizing that.

Thank your lucky stars you didn't marry him.

Actually, I was thinking that this describes most bad contractor/homeowner relationships. I'm not trying to keep this related to Kitchen remodeling just because this is part of that forum, but your post does describe the sort of awakening awareness many many of us felt as we discovered our contractors were really snakes.

Actually, I was thinking that this describes most bad contractor/homeowner relationships.

Funny-- Until I finished reading the post, that's what I thought it was about.

msmagoo-- I'm sorry to hear you're going through this. Unfortunately, there are alot of people out there like that-- both male and female, and no matter who you are, it always hurts just as much. I pray that things work out for you for the better.

I should have added, don't beat yourself up about it. Most of us expect that others will treat us as well as we treat them. That's why it's easy to ignore the little things. And a lot of times, the other person minimizes those things, and/or convinces you that you're overreacting or 'too sensitive'. It's confusing to be in any kind of relationship, professional or personal, when the other person is not operating in a sincere and honest manner.

Oh, yes. I also discovered that those people know how to find and attach themselves to those of us who tend to be sensitive to others, give more of ourselves than is prudent, and defer to the feelings of others more than we listen to our own inner voices. Weed is right; don't beat yourself up about it because you were likely "played" by someone who has btdt. The best thing to do is learn from it and try not to get into that kind of relationship again. It's easy to find yourself in a pattern--that was me for a long time. I've always been an appeaser. I just read a great quote from Winston Churchill about that; to paraphrase, he said appeasers are the ones who feed the crocodile in the hopes that they will be eaten last.

Oh yes oh yes oh yes. It's strange you should bring this up now. About 15 years ago I had a fling with a guy I thought was the best thing since sliced bread. I was head over heels about him. Now, I wish he would just leave me alone. I had dinner with him the other night and I just wanted to get out of the restaurant and get home. I swear he remembers every little thing I ever told him and constantly brings things up. Ugh. I completely misjudged him. He's nothing but a big blabbermouth who seems to enjoy collecting tidbits about people and passing them along. He's great looking, so more than a few women have been suckered, but so far none have been stupid enough to stay in a relationship with him.

Msmagoo, you are SO not alone. On the other hand, myregular boyfriend is a real honey! So -- they are out there.

not alone. Weed's right, be glad you didn't marry him. (I didn't. the one I married is a keeper!)

Dedtired,

Oh my goodness, it sounds like we were head over hills with the same guy...good looking(I'll admit that was the first thing that attracted me), greatest thing since sliced bread,...blabber mouth...seems to be an observer in life(as opposed to a participant), gets others to open up to him, but not opening up himself, only pretending, then betrays at the first chance he gets. Says I'm good friends with so&so when he's really just an acquaintance, married & divorce twice--should have been my 1st clue(but HE said it was all THEIR fault, after all THEY left HIM). Didn't have close relationships with grown son or daughter(or grandkids), but there was always a reason that was not his fault. It's been 3 years and I've had basically no contact with him, but he does call occasionally, acts like we're good friends(NOT), he's just wanting something from me...what was I thinking, he's sounds like a sixteen year old (very immature for a middle-aged man(40's).

I'll admit after all this time I still beat myself up over this, I mean I'm in my 40's how could I have been so stupid and foolish. What is wrong with me? And yes he's had alot of girlfriends, but 6 months seems to be the breakup point. I haven't heard from him in awhile, so I suppose he found someone (probably young) to sucker in.

Also, there were rumors, that there was emotional abuse, that lead to physical abuse(that's supposedly why the 2nd wife left), luckily I didn't make it that far....but I do feel now that he had started the emotional abuse roller coaster on me---everything my fault, all attention had to be focused on him, nothing I did for him was right..and I thought it was me...looked up emotional abuse online and everything fit the way he was acting...I felt like such a fool, he didn't love me(although he said), he was just looking for another victim!

Says I'm good friends with so&so when he's really just an acquaintance

WHen I was married the first time around, my wife was extremely jealous. Just to give you an example, you know how when in traffic, when someone pulls up next to you at a light, you'll glance over nonchalantly at the car next to you? God forbid if there was an attractive woman in that car-- I would hear about it for weeks afterward!! I talked to my dad about it, and he said something that stuck with me, and has shown to be right, time and time again--

Those that don't trust, can't be trusted themselves.

I spent ten good years of my life with that guy and there were not only red flags but sirens and alarms. But if it wasn't for that guy I wouldn't have met my DH and so I guess what I am trying to say is that things happen for a reason. Something positive will come out of your experience, even if it's just to be certain about what you *don't* want in a man the next time around and what to be cautious about.

Oh please, every woman I know had one of those. It's a right of passage -- makes you look in the mirror and ask just the questions you're asking, which are good. Now come up with good answers! Big fat NY clue: watch the ACTIONS, not the WORDS. Actions and words must match. Hardluck stories, bad mouthing, blaming, bragging, lying, no male friends are all 10 thousand watt flashing neon signs that say "bad news, bad news, bad news". If you fall for that it's need, not love. People who love you don't hurt you, they protect you.

Once OK. Twice, well you know the saying. My advice is don't even bother to take the call. Just hit the delete button on the answering machine and FUGGGEDABOUT him.

msmagoo, the person you describe sounds like a classic sociopath--seriously, every symptom to a Tee. Especially the failure to take responsibility (it's always someone else's fault), and the inability to form real lasting attachments. Here's a good book about it that came out recently: The Sociopath Next Door. I picked it up for research i was doing for my novel, and ended up identifying a former boyfriend AND a former (female) boss!! As others have said, this kind of relationship does seem to be a rite of passage. Sorry it had to happen to you-- it's good you're moving on!

Msrevise,

That sounds kinda scary, I guess I thought sociopath--I'd surely be able to see someone wacky like Charles Manson, but according to the book you described a percentage of the population are sociopaths, does this mean that they don't have feeling? He called again today, at my workplace to ask a bogus question, he surfaces every couple of months, it seems like he moves on temporarily then comes back, it's kinda scary at times.

msmagoo, it sounds like you had a chance to look at the book. Basically, yes, they don't feel affection, but they can fake it from watching those who do. They also don't feel guilty about anything b/c they have no conscience at all, and don't really get how other people do, but have learned how to work that to their advantage. They do however get upset when they lose something/someone b/c it's like they've lost a possession or lost at a game. And when things go wrong they always blame someone or something else, never themselves. Also, and importantly, these people often, but not always, have what you'd think of as a magnetic personality--very charming when they want to be, and often risk-taking, too. And they're really good at talking others into taking risks they wouldn't normally take--going outside the comfort zone.

Anyway, even if this guy doesn't meet any of those criteria, it sounds like you're better off without him, so don't be afraid to keep blowing him off! Most of the time i think these people like to play emotional/psychological games. He'll go onto the next "victim" after awhile. Otoh, if he does anything you'd consider threatening, don't be afraid to report it. (But if he hasn't done so before, i wouldn't expect different behavior than what you've already seen.) Still, i'm not a doctor, i just play one online!! If you're really worried, it never hurts to get a professional opinion.

The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout; I looked at the reviews and I'm curious enough to read it; she claims that 4% of the population are sociopaths.

I fired an employee this winter who was a classic sociopath; I knew it for some months but did not act upon it right away. We usually ignore our red flags when we're not ready to deal with the consequences of getting rid of those people in our lives; like dr. phil says: what are you getting out of this ?

I'm not a big dr phil fan but his approach of taking responsability for keeping these people in our lives makes sense to me.
In the case of my employee, I was not ready to be at my business full time so I ignored the feelings I had. I paid the consequences dearly. Live and learn.

I am letting go a student I hired a month ago; I've already had red flags to certain things she says and does that don't feel right; I try to learn from my previous mistake that was always giving the benefit of the doubt to people all the time. Wanting to be the nice guy, trying to salvage situations, not addressing issues when they arise, taking too long to analyze in case I was wrong, self doubting ; I've been pretty good in weeding out toxic people in my private life but in business , not so good but I'm getting better.

The downside to my experiences with sociopaths in my life is that I've become much more skeptical of what people say and do and I rarely confide in anyone; exposing my views here feels right because it's anonymous and I don't feel anything I say will follow me in real life. I like that.

mitchdesj, i know what you mean! In the company i worked for many years ago (sociopath boss), i had 2 supervisors. I always assumed i knew which one was the 'bad guy,' and i was so wrong. After she left and took a job out of state, she warned me about the other manager. Eventually i figured out that she was telling the truth. You're so right when you say it makes you reluctant to confide in anyone. Luckily i left for another job before all the stuff hit the fan.

Don't know how many people here are familiar with a certain former mayor of Washington, DC, who held office for many years and then was arrested in a drug sting operation...and of course he blamed his downfall not on his drug use and other indiscretions, but on the woman who "set him up." Another classic case of a very charming person with no remorse whatsoever, and in a position of power for a long time. Fooled a lot of people. Makes you wonder who else might be in this category...

First things first - RUN as fast as you can, as far as you can, delete the phone number, email address etc.

These people are nothing but destructive. They live for themselves and you are their "bucket of blood" until such time as you no longer fulfill your role then you are cast aside with complete disregard.

They operate in a web of lies, but particular lies that contain enough fragments of truth to make them believable to onlookers. Soon enough their web has you at the center with no way out because outsiders will see YOU as the liar etc because this "nice guy" has been doing sooooo much for you.

RUN FAST - if there are children involved SAVE THEM.

My MIL is one of these people, and hte abuse my DH and his brother have suffered is so outrageous that some would consider it fiction. The psychological damage frm the mental abuse is devastating.

Look up Narcissistic Personnality Disorder (akin to sociopaths) Books - Malignant Self Love - Vaknin
People of the lie - Scott Peck

This subject, for those who are not hurting is interesting because the kind of people described above are out there, as MILs,lovers, bosses, employees and more. And every situation is different enough that it's hard to know how to steer your way thru.

However, I have also observed that sometimes a good person learns a hard won lesson too well and shuts out anything that hints at difficulty. While others never seem to learn, thinking, 'this one is different'.

The middle ground can be the toughest to find. But I believe both in strong cynicism, good boundries, and a willingness to be vulnerable but confident. In the big picture we can't escape these personalities, and often have to deal with them to some degree.

I certainly know that strong narcissistic types have their good qualities somewhere, including that 'magnetic' personality. Might one be wary, certainly,...don't even think of taking that kind of person seriously over heart matters. And if we care, we're all victims,because it affects the culture as a whole, even as friends, or honest employees, or family. And I guess I can't help mentioning the connection between the personal and political worlds.

Well, I just ordered the book "The Sociopath Next Door", I agree with alexr, it's tough to find that middle ground. Unfortunately, the person I was involved with, I no longer want in my life in any way. I've tried to blow him off but every couple of months he calls. Because of this event I have a problem with shutting everyone out if they try to get too close, because I'm so afraid of getting hurt again.

The difference between a narcissist and a sociopath is that narcissists DO have a conscience and can become very emotionally attached to others, they are capable of love, but they just don't know how to empathize. They can't figure out other people's feelings, so it's hard for them to stay in relationships, but when a relationship fails, they may not understand why. Whereas sociopaths don't think there's anything wrong with themselves and don't see any need for therapy (and are basically untreatable b/c of this--rather, they think there's something wrong with everyone else!), narcissists will seek treatment to try and find out what's wrong.

Most sociopaths I've encountered had big egos; they had convinced themselves that they were fantastic and did a pretty good job at convincing others.
The illusion only lasts for a certain time though, before they trip up and show their true colors.

My question is--why does he keep coming back? It seemed to all start again(calling, stopping by, etc) when his ex got married again. I've given him no reason to even think we are friends, matter of fact I'm not really friendly to him. I don't know how to handle this, I'm afraid to make him angry, cause last time he started spreading rumors about me. I just want him GONE!!!

msmagoo, don't be held hostage by the fact that he can spread rumors about you; is this a work situation ? or someone in a small community....

I hope you find the courage to brush this person off in a clear manner so that he gets the message; enlist a friend for some support....

Don't respond negatively, just don't respond. He keeps coming back because he can.

I was just about to send you a great link about controllers and abusers from another forum -- until I saw you already knew about it.

Glad you're distancing yourself and building up your defenses. The healing will come.

Whether this guy is a sociopath or a narcissist doesn't really matter, he is bad news.

Read the foreword to the following link and you will immediately know if this book is for you

Here is a link that might be useful: Vaknin

Whether this guy is a sociopath or a narcissist doesn't really matter, he is bad news.

You're right, dulcinea. I guess it might help with the approach one takes, though, if you have an idea.

But ultimately, yes, as others have said, just don't respond to him at all.

It's unfortunate, but you have to not engage at all at this point. The reason he calls is simply because he can. I'm not sure what his motivation is, it doesn't matter, because when it comes down to core values, he simply doesn't see you as an equal. He just wants to size things up for his own benefit. No information at all is the best policy. It's hard to manipulate when you don't play along. You figured it out-he's bad news! He needs to figure it out (but won't) for himself with no help from you. He may try to say things he 'thinks' you want to hear. Don't go there. Show supreme indifferance, even boredom,think to yourself- 'been there, done that.' Then define what your expectations are for friends that you want. Value yourself like you are gold.

Having a chip on your shoulder is a calling card, because it's a defense that these types take as a challenge to get you to trust. So they may 'act' supportive and blind-side you. That is why being Independent, kind, firm, and keeping a knowing gracious smile is so f***ing hard.

One more example: Imagine you adapted a dog from the street or shelter, that you don't know it's history, but you bring it home and it's trouble- it snaps at you when you least expect it. When you've done everything for it. Well, it's not the end of the world, some wise and caring people even have the time and patience to take this on. The big difference is they are the Master . In this situation he is the abusive dog and the master who takes You in. Not a good situation.

I think I've seen enough in life and read enough to know that occasionally , after creating victims by destroying peoples lives, sometimes these people 'get it' and are redeemed. And if you're a removed observer, someone who hasn't suffered at their hand, you may have sympathy for them... or simply for the human condition. I guess in fiction I can think of a fairy tale perhaps, or maybe Goethe's Faust in a poetic way, but best perhaps in Charles Dicken's "Dombey and Son".... Where Dombey after a lifetime finally learns what to value in life.

Just finished watching a movie on Lifetime, a woman meets this guy all her friends & family(even her son) love him, but she just keeps saying "There's just something about him", come to find out he's a complete psycho. At the end of the movie she makes a comment "Bad people don't come with warning labels", boy wouldn't life be smoother if they did!!!

Sounds like some people on this forum! Oops, just my sense of humor...

I'm half way through the above cited book, sociopath next door; the case examples she uses are excellent as far as driving her point across and I'm gaining knowledge as far as recognizing how the web of deception gets woven early on in a relationship. But I also see how easy it is to get taken in by a sociopath.

My daughter got out of a bad relationship at the end of the summer and I had to nurse her through it; I clearly see now the toxic effect a sociopath can have on
it's victim, they are very clever people and really know which buttons to push.

Every situation is different but I think we must pay attention and trust our instinct when something feels weird in our dealings with toxic people; not always easy when it's affairs of the heart or business dealings where we have little control.

I'm on the last chapter of "Sociopath Next Door", boy I wish I would have read this years ago. Again, I don't know if the guy I was "in love" with was a sociopath, but there were definately signs and it is really scary to me that I opened up to this person. One sure sign from the book was if someone tries to make you feel sorry for them, pity them, he definately did that to me and I fell for it. The big thing with him was he was overly concerned about how he appeared to others, not really the people that he was close(i use that word loosely) to but people(in my opinion)that didn't really matter. I guess, looking back, the people who knew him the best, knew the real person, and everyone else knew "Mr. Nice Guy". I'm going to reccomend that my daughter read it. The thing is I find myself analyzing everyone I meet, and if I get a wrong vibe, I keep my distance. It's just hard to get your guard up all of the time. But this was DEFINATELY a worthwhile read!

msmagoo, glad you are doing better; I think the book does not solve everything but gives you awareness and that's always useful. I'm almost finished reading it and I will pass it along to DD.

The vibes you get are worth paying attention to; it's easier to be cautious and more guarded rather than to have to backtrack after opening up.

thanks for posting back, it's always nice to get feedback in a thread that means a lot.

Another good book is The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker. It addresses a very good point - we are born with an innate sense of fear, and we humans constantly ignore it. The book is more about violence and how to avoid getting attacked and other situations, but its basic message applies to emotional violence, too.

Weed,

Thanks for the recommendation, Oprah featured this book on her show awhile back, stating every woman should read this book. It also came highly recommended from a police academy instructer, he made his 16 yr old daughter read it before she could get her drivers license. I have a college age daughter that is reading it. You are right it does mainly cover violence issues, but there is a section that covers potential abusers and red flags in dating/intimate relationships. Young women are especially vulnerable, sometimes these 40+ abusive men can't find women there own age because these women have (propably through past experience) "smartened-up"-for lack of a better word, so they prey on someone younger and more vulnerable. Apparently, they guys basically have the same type of traits. Too bad we have to learn the hard way!!

msmagoo, be sure you are using caller ID or your answering machine to screen the calls. If that doesn't work well (he doesn't call often enough to make it worth your while to try that method), then develop a standard excuse or phrase, and when he DOES call, use it.

"I'm sorry, I can't talk right now; I'm in the middle of something. Goodbye!" and HANG UP. Don't say "some other time," or "thanks for calling." Don't let him get a word in edgewise. Friendly tone of voice, but off the phone as fast as you possibly can.

If he swings by in person, same thing: "I'm sorry, I can't talk now. No, you can't come in. Goodbye!"

He's testing constantly, to see if he can get your attention. Don't give it to him. Not even negative attention.

Thanks, Talley sue, what's up with this guy, he was at my place of work the other day, just as I was arriving. He was on the job so he had a legitimate reason to be there(it just happened to be at the same time I arrived), after I parked, when I was walking to the parking lot he happened to drive by in his work truck and made some friendly statement to me. What's the deal, I mean I blew him off the last time he called, if it were me I would have moved on by now. He still intimidates me sometimes and although I was once in love with him, I see the "real" person now, I don't know if he can sense this and gets some kind of thrill from making me uncomfortable. After 3 yrs of these "coincidental" things, again it got worse after his ex got remarried. What kind of person lives like this?

Don't judge a book by its cover as they say. The nicest people are not always the best looking, tallest, lankiest, most well groomed, best hair, most sexy and smoothest talking. People are amazed after they have "fallen in love" with someone who fit their image of the near-perfect mate, and then it doesn't work out after they actually get to know the person.
"Falling in love" is just a term of art for the animal instincts of courtship and sex. If people spent a bit more time finding a person who shared interests and goals and passions about things in life than they spend courting the best looking thing they can find, there would be fewer problems down the road, I think.

I was married to a man that has classic narcissistic personality disorder. We have two children together, and since we divorced six years ago he has attempted to make my life miserable using the court system. The reason he's using the court is because I cut off other opportunities for him. Because he is violent and deviant, we communicate only by email and the contact he has with me and the kids is documented. He's only allowed to see them with supervision. I found the court to be my friend in protecting both me and the kids from him. The big question I had was why was he doing this to me? He's remarried (twice) since we divorced.

I found some clues in a few things he said. He still says that I am living in "his" house (even though I paid for it) and even went so far as to tell me I had to give him "his" dog (even though we bought it for the kids, he worked out of town five days a week and lived in the desert). Turns out that possession is a big deal to narcissists. If they think something, or someone, belongs to them, it REALLY angers them when they can't have it. Doesn't matter if they actually WANT it, they just need to know they CAN have it. In my case, the house, the dog and the kids are what he thought were his. So even though he was unemployed, living with his parents and not paying child support or even visiting them, he sued me for custody. He represented himself, which is the only reason the case even got to court. A halfway competent lawyer could have seen he had ZERO chance, but in his warped mind, everyone should see that he was being reasonable and logical...after all, they are HIS kids, right?

So I think that's why he's doing this to you...to prove to himself that you're still "his" even if he doesn't want you. Hang in there, but definitely do NOT interact with him, because any interaction will only enforce his twisted ideas.