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Has forum etiquette vanished...

Posted by claire_de_luna (My Page) on
Fri, May 12, 06 at 17:12

...or is it just me? Maybe I'm just burned out, but I don't feel inclined to ''help out'' much any more. It seems like there are a lot of people asking questions that aren't really present, or don't really care when others make an effort to respond.

I know the forum has turned over many times, but it seems a different place than it used to be. Do you think the entire tone of the Kitchens forum has changed?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Claire,
I think the tone of the forum sort of ebbs and flows as new people come and others leave when their kitchens are completed. I do see a lot of that kind of thing though, where a question is asked, people try to help with a request for more detail and the OP never comes back and answers.

I tend not to answer questions whose answers can easily be found by doing a simple search. Back in the old days when we had only 10 pages it was inevitable that the same questions would get asked frequently as threads fell off after about five days of inactivity.

Now with so many pages, I would think that newcomers would want to sort of read up on old posts to get a bit of background before posting a new question, or if it was something they needed to find out fast, at least do a search. OTOH 67 pages of threads can be overwhelming.


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Hey Luna~
I just referenced you over at my 'bread maven' thread @ Cooking.

I agree and been thinking the same thing myself. Loads of new names on a daily basis, most seem to ask a question or two and disappear. It's not the warm, fuzzy place it used to be, unfortunately.

Everyone (including me), seems to be much more short tempered & less tolerant, too ~ must be something in the air, I don't know.

I did notice that this feeling isn't limited to Kitchens. It appears that Decorating is having it's share of problems, too. Something about posts indiscrimitely disappearing? Someone started a thread about it over at the Suggestion Forum (I didn't even know that existed-lol). And there's a coupon brawl over at Laundry, I think. The only place that remains constant is Cooking, so it's nice to have some normalcy (though Jessy may disagree about the normal part-lol).

Well glad you popped in ~ try not to be a stranger!


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lowspark, you would think people might want to read up before they posted questions, but I don't get the impression anyone does. I agree that with so many pages to look over, it is daunting.

Pauline, I'm glad it's not just me! Sometimes my only response is ''Good Grief'' which is usually in my head...

I'm glad you're liking the idea of parchment. I usually only use it for flimsy items like pizza (my are very thin crusted) with heavy toppings. I don't know how Ann does it with a pizza peel, but I'm impressed that she can work it as well as she does!

I'm not really a stranger since I check in all the time; I just find that often I have very little to say!


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I agree... it's not quite the same place. And I get a tad peeved when someone posts a Q at 3 PM and then returns at 4:30 and posts the exact same question on a new thread and is all upset that they did not get replies yet.

Yes, I have a bit of burn-out myself. I do wish we had FAQs.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

You're right, fairegold. FAQs would help. I was new to the forum this past 6 months, when we began redoing our kitchen, and I found it was difficult to dig through old postings to find information. (I may have been one of those 'pains' that asked questions that had been answered many times in the past). But I also found that everyone who responded (many of you included) were absolutely wonderful. I could never have finished my kitchen project as successfully as I did without your help. So please don't give up. We newbies (actually I'm sort of an 'oldie' now) really count on your expertise and encouragement.


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Oh good, Fairegold, Validation! It's not the same, is it? There are times when I long for the good old days, when those ten pages were around for a while before they rolled off into oblivion.

karenforroses, do you find the Search function helpful? There's a lot of information to be had if people would use it more. If there were an FAQ, Searching should probably be among the first!

Part of me finds it hard to give up this place, and the other part wants to push it far, far away! It seems to me sometimes that people don't feel like they need manners...is that because it's an internet site? What happened to polite, gracious behavior?


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I don't know. I think I've changed. I am not the person I was going into my remodel. I am feeling at loose ends in my personal life with elderly and infirm parents, demanding small children, a harried husband, impending menopause and the lovely hormonal changes that accompany that, and most of all the feeling that nothing I do is very significant. I know this is all tied up in the same package, but that doesn't seem to make it easier to handle. dh and I have had to make the difficult decision as to whether or not I go back to work and we agreed that it doesn't make sense for me to do so. However, while it is what I thought I really wanted, I must say that my career gave me certain things that are quite lacking in my vocation as SAHM. So, right now, I am in a weird place emotionally and that tends to color all of my reactions and responses on the board. I just don't really know who I am at the moment, as so much of the previous me is kind of buried right now.

I've been spending a lot more time working on things to give me some sense of still having a bit of intelligence. I've been on the forum a lot less than before because I just don't have anything new to offer and I feel a bit pathetic giving the same tired opinions coupled with the same old photos. I guess I don't feel valuable whereas in the past I thought I had something to offer. My remodel is so far distant that there isn't much I can say now to help anyone embarking on a remodel.


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Side note: seeking, I'm so relieved to see you write this:
"my career gave me certain things that are quite lacking in my vocation as SAHM."

I was just in a discussion about that on a hsing board and I was the only person who had really had a career before turning to full-time parenting and hsing...I *freely* admit that I loved my career (not a job) before my DD came along. What we're doing is the only thing I could possibly see doing, given *our* situation, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend that I hated everything that came before and never felt fulfilled by anything before parenting.

People were really shocked to see my opinion. It's especially not kosher in hsing circles.

So anyway, to keep this on topic, yes, I agree. As always, I begin to wonder what the dynamic could be with the bigger picture--I think people are feeling more harried than usual, more unsettled than even a couple of years ago. They may be feeling more self-protective and less thinking that reaching out and establishing new relationships is worth it. I also feel traffic behavior is getting worse in the city we live in.


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I'm not sure what to think - I haven't been around here as long as some of you. Maybe it has changed. I don't really care for the 67 pages. I used to read more of it when there were ten - now I look at the first couple pages and that's it. Maybe that's because I've been done with my kitchen for a year.

Seeking - I'm so sorry to hear you are in a bit of a funk. You were so helpful to me when I was deciding on my fridge!! Your photos were a big help. I know what you mean about just getting tired of saying the same thing with the same photos. And impending menopause..... I don't have kids though and have been doing the career thing my entire adult life. It's been great in many ways but sometimes I'd just like to retire from it all and be a "homemaker". I think it's human nature to believe the grass may be greener on the other side. Hang in there!!


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You know, with SO many pages, this forum has become a place where "I'll never get through it all" feelings emerge. It's overwhelming. The last place I want to feel overwhelmed is when I'm in front of a keyboard. I don't want to open mail. I don't want to even DELETE an email...but I'm finding that I am. I'm skipping over issues. I'm glancing at authors I don't know, focusing on those names that are familiar, funny, and wise.

I don't have it in me to counsel anyone on granite, tile, or faucets. Not today anyway.

So, to answer you soundly: No, sweetie, it's not just you. It's me, too. I'm glad we're in the same boat. I think you're a riot! Say something to make me laugh. This rum isn't potent tonight. :)


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Can you believe it??

Good grief. I'm not drinking tonight! THAT's a SERIOUS problem when you can't even tell. See? I am really bone tired.


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Claire de Luna - yes the search did help at times (I use the search for the rose forum too). But things change so rapidly in the building & remodeling areana (i.e. new oven models, new cabinet styles and finishes, etc.) that I always worried that the older postings might not be accurate for today.


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I have not been around nearly as long as most of you ladies, but I agree with what has been said about failing to do a search. It drives me nuts when I see the same (or very similar) question 3 times in the first 4 pages. When I was in the "thick of things" with my kitchen I would scour the 10 pages to find everything I could about whatever the current need. With 67 pages, I know it is hard to do, but a search will usually bring up plenty of reading material.

I do find myself more hesitant to answer questions because there are a few people that will jump down your throat if your opinion differs from theirs...and you never quite know when they will pop out! I have definitely learned to stay out of the fray on inflammatory threads...just don't need the aggravation.

Seeking - so sorry to hear you are struggling. I left my career about 3 years ago to be a SAHM. Don't underestimate the difficulty of doing what you did. Anyone that has left the workforce can relate to what you are going through...you lost a huge part of your identity. You should pop in at the Mojo thread. Although weight has been the main topic, Sweeby started the thread with the intent of "gettin' our mojo back", and the ladies over there will jump on board to help you out of your funk!


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Long ago, I made a suggestion that when someone hits the POST button, they are greeted with "Have you used the Search function to see if your question has already been answered?" ( with a Yes, No option to click)

Clicking on the word Search or No would take them to a page with brief instructions on how to do a search and proper use of keywords. Clicking Yes would dump you into the posting box. Then there could be an option to turn off this feature on the member settings, since it would be aggravating for regular posters.

And yes, it annoys me when I take the time to post something lengthy and there is no response, *especially* when the person comes back to the thread. I don't need big kudos for my sparkling answers, but a thank you would be nice!


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Please note that on the main Kitchens forum, those 67 pages only go back TWO months. No, cabinet finishes, styles, appliance models etc do not usually change that quickly. Like I said, there's been a more demanding tone to some of the posts, as if someone is paying us lowly volunteers for being online 24 hours a day just waiting to respond to the 5,637,848th time "What is an Airswitch?" is asked.

Tomme was playing a little game. She'd make a postit on what she thought the next often-asked question would be: air switch, miracle cloths, where do your dogs eat, where do you keep your dishtowel, where do you hang a paper towel dispenser, etc. AT least this way, she gets a laugh when the same old question comes up again.

Anyone wanna guess when we'll see "What is an airswitch?" show up again?


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seeking advice--Had to respond to you--I can relate. I am nearing menopause and also have small children (twin boys). I also gave up a career that gave me a lot of gratification to be home with my boys. Although I do not regret that decision most of the time, at times I feel like I am just a "mommy". I am a Nurse Practitioner (no longer certified) and the other day, when I took one of my boys to the Dr.--he was talking down to me as if being home has caused me to lose brain cells and forget the most basic medical info. Just reinforced the feelings you describe.

I read your post over and over, because I felt like I was writing the post. Just wanted to let you know how much I am empathizing with you. ((Hugs))


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With regards to OP's not coming back to their threads, it annoys me even more when I get email questions and send back a lengthy detailed answer, then don't even get a thank-you note. I've had people ask via email for additional photos, contact information, etc. Stuff that takes time and effort to respond to. Then you send it all out and don't even receive an acknowledgement. Miss Manners has left the (cyber) building.


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I do wish we had FAQs.

Good and bad news to this. Most of the questions that could be answered in FAQ's here are already listed in FAQ's in the building a home forum.

Now for the bad news. The problem is that I've noticed that although it may SEEM like the same questions over and over again (generally speaking they are), each question is specific to THAT person's space, mostly having to do with color and texture of certain combinations of materials, and there's no way an FAQ section would address that.

those 67 pages only go back TWO months.

That's no surprise, considering that on most days, when I get home from work, there's atleast three pages, and sometimes four, just from THAT DAY. If anything, I'm actually surprised that it goes back as far as two months!


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I almost never respond to emails sent directly to me. I feel that the subject is best answered on-forum where other people can add comments. But I will say that I do usually respond to those of you I know from being active on the forum, and have met a lot of people, too. I would not trade that for anything.

But the occasional email from someone I have never heard of asking me to spill my guts about my countertop usually gets deleted.

And Bill, I disagree to a point. The question about paper towels, for example, or what is an ariswitch, those are very repetitive. Questions about specific tile installations can each deal with a problem specific to that person's situation.


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Answering Your Post

Touche. :-)


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Most of the questions that could be answered in FAQ's here are already listed in FAQ's in the building a home forum.

The FAQ's in the building forum are very limited; nothing about airswitches, NeverMT, Tapmaster, paper towels, etc. (I know. I searched!) I think that a comprehensive kitchen FAQ would help; any poster requesting basic info can be directed to the FAQs. Lulashoo had started a kitchen FAQ. I haven't heard much about it lately, although I have directed a few folks to it for things like net abbreviations and instructions for posting photos. Does anybody know the status?

I agree about the personal emails that request advice. I usually tell them to pls post in the forum; then I'll answer. :-)

Back to forum etiquette... I've found that most folks are still quite appreciative of the advice, but there's been alot of nastiness in this forum lately. That I don't understand.


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Even posts on the kitchen forum would last longer than 2 months if people did searches before posting, and if they didn't post the same question multiple times themselves.


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I'm mentioning this here because I think you GardenWeb "experts" should know about it just in case my complaint to GardenWeb is not acted upon. There is a pornographic photo posted in the Home Entertainment forum. I just sent an email through the Technical Problems link--I hope that was the right place to send this type of complaint to. If the photo is not removed soon I will be asking for help in getting an urgent message to the webmaster.


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I leave my computer for the morning and look what happens!

Seeking, a lot of your comment could be mine for the last year and a half. What I related to most was most of all the feeling that nothing I do is very significant. When I was planning my kitchen, that was my job. (My Mom keeps asking when I'm going to remodel my bathroom, but I just don't want to go there right now.) Menopause takes a toll, and fitting normal life in there seems difficult doesn't it? My Mom and her beau came for a weekend visit and we ended up in the emergency room, then the hospital for 3 days. Your ''sandwich'' of being between the aging parents and small children is tough.

flyleft, I wonder why people are feeling more unsettled and harried than a few years ago. I think you're probably right about feeling self protective and feeling like establishing new relationships isn't worth it. I often wish I had better relationships with a lot of the people I know! Sometimes I just feel worn out by people who don't follow up, return phone calls or e-mails, or generally make any effort at all.

gibby, I don't know what to think either!

sherilynn, if you're not drinking...well maybe you should! (Considering what you've had to contend with.) I wish I felt funny...or that there was even something funny going on around me. Maybe I should be the one to have that drink...

Hi weed, glad you're back. (You've been missed!) Are you settled in your new house and life?

I'm just glad to see all of you...including Karen, Gibby, Neverdone, Blsdgal, Fairegold, Cheifneil, Bill, Starpooh and Sharon. It's comforting to me that you're still around. I was talking to DH this morning and telling him that those of you I feel the most bonded with are around the same age/circumstance as I am. I wonder sometimes if that's what I like about you! We all remember politeness, those who have been helpful, and try to give back a little.

Although I'm not a SAHM, I do have the priviledge of getting to be home. I made myself a business card years ago and gave myself the ''Title'' of Home and Garden Specialist. It's funny how people look at you differently when you hand them a professional looking card after giving yourself a name! Suddenly, I didn't fit in their square little box any more. People quit asking me what I did with myself all day, when I starting telling them there was so much to Do, I didn't know how they had time to go to work! (Tongue in cheek of course!)

Generally speaking however, society has changed (not just the Kitchen forum) and I'm not sure we are better for it...


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Oh boy.

Krustytopp, this is when I long for the old days of Spike, when he controlled stuff like this, or sent people to Disney. I remember I got sent to Disney once, and felt so humiliated!


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I fogot...

Fairegold, I'll bet the airswitch question shows up again before the weekend is over!


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krustytopp ~ disgusting! It reminds us that there are worse things than not saying "thank you" in the forums.

It was so gross that I also reported the Home Entertainment thread. But it took me awhile to find out how to notify GW. (Eventually went to the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page.) GardenWeb needs to make it easier to report this abuse; and to act on it more quickly!


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Spike was on the job 24/7. The new corporate staff works about 30 hours a week, sorry to say. They do deal with things, but it seems never before late Monday afternoon, and they never seem to be around on Friday.

I miss Spike.


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WHat I don't understand is why they don't do like every other forum I go into, and have moderators who watch over the forums, 24/7. This is the only (for all intents and purposes) unmoderated forum I know of, and I go into several.

Yes, I've seen times when someone will come in and delete offensive material pretty quickly, but more often than not, it takes a while.

For example, if that granite haters thread had been posted over at John Bridge's forum, with the first nasty post, it would be gone. I've seen arguments start like that, and it takes maybe 20 minutes for the thread (or alteast the offensive posts) to be deleted, and the offending parties to get an email.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I'm glad to see some of the old familiar names/people that have have shared so much helpful information with me over time. I think some of the different tone comes in part from having this conversation spot, separate from the basic forums. When I first came to the kitchen forums, we knew of sick husbands and dying dogs and LIFE, that just somehow complicated the kitchen process. And when we knew each other a little bit better, our advice became more personalized and to the point. I know there are problems to that set-up, I know there were issues with the limited number of pages. But. I sure liked it that way, and I sure do miss Spike. Good to find you all here.


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Hi gardenerupnorth. You know, it was more interesting when the (old Kitchens) forum was more inclusive. It's good to have this place to come to though, especially now that our kitchens are done. I still can't quite believe how much the Garden Web has grown and changed. It's like living in a medium sized town that's grown into a big city. The growing pains have been...well...Painful. I am grateful to find you all still here however!


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I think its only natural, with done kitchens, that our focus turns elsewhere. I find "conversations" of greater interest to me than the kitchens and appliance forums; however, because the posters on the kitchen and appliance forum were helpful to me when I was designing and remodeling my kitchen, I try to "give back" by staying active on those boards to the extent I have something to contribute.

I think it's less civil too but am hoping, as the new posters become more accustom to the forum and each other, behavior will change.


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I agree with the lack of civility. I think the forum has just grown so much, it's hard for folks to follow things as closely as "back in the day".

And Chiefneil, I have to say I think I'm guilty of one of your infractions. Awhile back I emailed you asking to see photos of your bathroom, as the link was broken in the GW post. You did send an email, but I still couldn't see the photos, and I didnt' email you back to tell you because I didn't want to be a cyber-pest!! So to Chiefneil...THANKS for at least trying to send me pics!!!


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I don't think the moderators are coming back. iVillage sale to NBC is to be completed May 15. Today is the 13th, and I'm guessing they got their pink stubs yesterday, also explains their behavior for the past week.

Bob


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There never have been moderators, Bob. Spike only responded when someone "tattled". And yes, I tattled when someone posted an obvious ad or something blatently offensive. I would wrote Spike, and he took care of things.

But there have never been "moderators" on these forums, at least not like those I have know in other forums.


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Well then there must be one busy tattler in home decorating lately. Whole threads and various posts keep getting deleted and warnings are flying everywhere. What I don't get is why they feel they have to listen to the tattler if no rules have been broken....


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claire_de_luna....(I long for the old days of Spike, when he controlled stuff like this, or sent people to Disney. I remember I got sent to Disney once, and felt so humiliated!)

"Gone With The Wind" Sent me to Disney! LOL Those who read that one, know what I am talking about. I had apologized to Spike and he was kind to let me back. There was no messing around with Spike!


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Hey reno_fan, no worries. We've swapped enough messages that you get a pass! Here's my photobucket album, let me know if you still can't view it. The master bath is on the very first page (took me a while to figure out how to organize the album), and I have the powder room photos up on one of the sub-folders.

Here is a link that might be useful: My photos


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Holy macaroni, Chief! That's one awesome house you have there. (Though I'm a little disappointed to see no sign of plastic wrap duct taped to any openings.....)

The bathroom with the blue tiles is what I'd been trying to see. That's something my DH would love to see in our master bath. I'll send him the link. Thank you!


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CheifNeil, the tile work in your home is absolutely sutnning. I am so proud for you! WONDERFUL taste! I what kind of stone is used for the curved counter in your MBR?

Thank you!
Sheri

Here is a link that might be useful: What is the name of the stone on this counter? I love it!


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Reno_fan, I still love the look of the glass mixed in with the travertine. One note about installation - the glass is much thinner than the travertine, so either you end up with the glass having a recessed look or you have to plan on building out the thinset (or figure out some other method) to get the glass flush with the stone.

Sherilyn - thanks! The house is still a work in progress a year after moving in. I've been installation ceiling fans, light fixtures, mirrors, etc, ever since moving in. Right now my big project is working with Scherr's to get some built-ins for the den. Anyway, the marble in that countertop is Giallo Antico. I really like it! It's not flashy, but has a lot of visual interest due to the color variation and quartz inclusions. It's also a very thirsty stone - I've sealed twice with Aquamix Gold, and once with 511 Impregnator, and still need to do one more treatment.


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chiefneil ~ your kitchen is gorgeous! I haven't seen your kitchen in the gallery; are you finished? If so, may I please archive your kitchen in the Finished Kitchens blog?


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Hi starpooh - no, the kitchen's not quite finished. I've been having some angst over my pulls (of all things!) for the past six months. I've been contemplating posting for help but it would be kind of embarrasing to be posting one of those "help me choose knobs" messages.

Anyway since we're on the subject: the type of pull I chose for the drawers is about 4" long and pewter-colored, and I've installed a bunch. But... I don't want to use both hands to open the pot drawers and long cutlery drawers. So I've been thinking that I'd use a different type of pull (the long stainless rod type) just for those drawers. But my angst is whether or not it would look odd to have two different types of pulls, so I've been dithering for months. It's so sad - I did all the design decisions for the entire house, and here I am hung up on knobs.


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chiefneil, if it helps, I have two different types of pulls on my drawers. The regular drawers have 4 inch pulls, and the big drawers (I didn't want to use two hands either) have 11 inch pulls on them. Mine are different from each other, and I like having that distinction. I also have a few knobs, and think they all transition well together. The only thing to remember about one pull vs. two is that whatever you put in that big drawer should probably be well balanced. Other than that, I really like a diversified look! (You didn't ask, but here I am offering my unsolicited opinion anyway...)


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blsdgal, I just had to comment on this:

the other day, when I took one of my boys to the Dr.--he was talking down to me as if being home has caused me to lose brain cells

Any doctor who talks down to you, no matter what your background, should be fired. IOW switch doctors. No way I'd put up with that from any doctor or any other professional I'm paying. Because when they talk down to you there's a good chance they're not telling you everything you need to know, and there's a good chance they're not listening to everything you have to say. Find a doctor who doesn't feel that s/he's on a higher plane than you, there are plenty of them out there. Just MHO.

But back to the topic, what fairegold said is exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, if you need help deciding the color of your backsplash you're gonna need to start a new thread. But if you need to know what an airswitch is, for pete's sake, at the very least do a search before asking.

As far as the 67 pages goes, maybe it's a case of "be careful what you wish for". Back in the day when we only had 10, we used to wish for more. Now, is 67 too many? I tend to think not but I'm done with my kitchen so no longer searching for info. I do know that I would occasionally review all 10 pages when I was still in the throes of remodeling just to see if there was anything good I missed. In fact, I owe my corner "step-in" pantry to a thread I resurected from page 10 so long ago. So, although I probably would not want to read all 67 pages at one sitting, think of the wealth of information sitting there for anyone who will just take the time to glance back.

As for the nasty threads, I pretty much stay away from them. And when you start out with the word "hate" in the title, you're begging for trouble.


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To all you "oldies"
I consider myself a newbie and have probably been guilty of some of the infractions listed above. I have tried to do searches, not always successfully. I have also tried to contribute back when my research, guided by help from most of you, has led me to a well thought out decision. I do see a bit of a change since I first joined, but I can't thank you all enough for your contributions to the new home i am building. Appliances, Kitchen, bathrooms and laundry people have all helped enormously ( even when the FL threads cofused me!) I would hate to see all of the people I consider "experts" such as youselves leave the forum.
To add to the other part of this thread. I am recently retired after almost 40 years of working. We are moving to a new state and building a home that became much larger than originally planned. I am frequently overwhelmed by the decisions, concerned by perhaps the lack of real meaning in this project and a liitle concerned as to the identity of this non-working person. I was never a SAHM as I have no kids, but i think some of the issues are the same. I have always felt that SAHM's deserved a great deal of respect for their "careers" but without a business card as Claire printed, it seems our society, and perhaps ourselves, have trouble taking people seriously.
Again thanks to all who have been such a genuine help on this forum.
Jillypie


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jillypie, you are a sweetie newby, thanks for posting this.


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I agree with Mitch, jillypie. It's nice to hear; thankyou!


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Sorry not to have responded sooner to the many wonderful people who gave me words of encouragement and empathy! I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. My dh is great but doesn't really grasp what I'm going through. He thinks it sounds great to quit work and stay home with the kids but doesn't realize the identity shift that takes place nor the ensuing struggle to re-establish yourself. It is especially hard for me not to fall back into my old subservient patterns (childhood & first marriage). I tend to defer to his decisions and feel guilty for "frivolous" spending and accept his priorities as my own when they sometimes are not the same. I have to fight very hard with myself not to feel that he has more say in how the money is spent than I. Fortunately, it is primarily a struggle with myself, as dh does not expect such things. It's hard to explain to others, though.

flyleft, you are so right about a career and what it gives you. It is empowering, while for me, being a SAHM is somewhat dis-empowering, if that's a word.

gibby, yes! The grass is always greener on the other side, LOL.

neverdone, I see you understand completely. I have never loved anything as much as I love being a SAHM, so it is confusing to feel as though I am not as vibrant a person because of it. I have wanted so many times to go to the Mojo threads but I have been afraid that my Mojo is too elusive a goal right now, which further proves how much I need the threads, LOL.

blsdgal, once again we are in similar circumstances! I so appreciate your very kind words, especially since you know whereof you speak. I know exactly what you're saying about feeling talked down to, as it happens to me a lot. I have a low-key demeanor and I was raised to think it rude to "come across too strong." While I think I'm exhibiting good manners, some professionals interpret it as lack of intelligence and talk down to me, which is more frequent now that I have no occupation listed on their forms. I have also learned, though, that when you speak knowledgeably and professionally yourself, that too is often resented. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but my experience has been that doctors, while wonderful people for the most part, are often very protective of their egos.

claire, if you come up with more ideas on feeling significant, let me know! I love the business card brainstorm. I'm going to borrow that one (though I will have to think of something besides garden expert!!!).

jillypie, you are a sweetie pie! And you're right - society does not tend to value as highly the caretaking jobs, whether they are paid or unpaid.

So sorry for the long hijack, Claire!


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Seeking, if you borrow the business card idea, make sure your give yourself a ''title'' of something you're really good at! People will want you to consult with them, since they'll be taking you seriously once you become ''official'' by having a card...


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I've noticed a big difference in just the 3-4 months I've been reading and posting to the kitchen forum. I just do not see the enthusiasm I did back in Feb. And so many of the questions are repeats of questions posted just a day or so earlier.

Sometimes I feel a bit guilty but most times I just skip the posts where the poster seems at her wits end or hysterical about a decision or a problem that arises.

I am not a SAHM but I do work at home and don't know how I ever worked outside the home and kept my home together. Good lord it is after 10:00 am and I am still in my PJs!

If you do want to print up some business cards, Kinkos has the best prices by far. I thought about printing my own business cards but with the cost of the colored ink and the paper, it was just not cost effective.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I definitely have withdrawn some from reading the Kitchen Forum and posting replies in the last couple months. I agree that the volume of postings is overwhelming. And I find myself sighing at the oft repeated questions and moving on without bothering to answer.

I only started reading the Forum about a year ago, and joined in September. Even 6 or 8 months ago, it was much more, what, orderly? Folks seemed to understand to search first, and the few who didn't quickly adapted to a gentle nudge. I don't recall so many new people starting so many new threads - sometimes even the same person starting a half dozen at once! The traffic is dizzying.

I feel fortunate to have snuck in some threads before the floodgates opened. I really really enjoyed and appreciated all the help and comments, support and advice. Sometimes those threads went on for a while and I worried that was maybe "bad form", but I relished the help and it was fun to see the problem through to a solution. Now it seems the longer threads often have derailed onto a recurring argument far afield of the OP.

I don't have a solution to any of this. Except that I guess rather than feel bummed out, we should all commit to doing some work on the FAQ.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I find myself sighing at the oft repeated questions and moving on without bothering to answer.

Knobs and pulls..... arrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!

sorry, just had to get that out of my system.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Could be worse. Other than Gardenweb, in any give tile forum that I go into, on ANY given day, you can be guaranteed that the subject of tiling over vinyl comes up-- REPEATEDLY-- every day. I'll tell you all the same thing I've told other pros in those forums. yes, the information might be available elsewhere by doing a search. However, it should also be totally unnecessary to even go on line for that info. People come into the forums with what's to them, personal questions, and they would very much like personal answers, even if the same question has been asked 90 million times before. Although it might be a little different here being that most of you aren't pros, what I usually tell the pros in the other forums that are complaining about it, if you don't want to answer them, then don't!! Either I or someone else will.

Again, it's a little different in here, but the reason behind similar posts still remains the same.

Heck, I've seen days in the bathrooms forum where there are 2 or 3 different threads from different posters, all pretty much asking the same thing about tiling a steam shower, or asking about Kerdi showers, and ALL of them have pretty much the same thing in the thread title, so it's not like they didn't know the other threads existed right in front of them.

Personalized service is long gone in most areas of life. I like to think that we can atleast give it on line.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

So bill, can I tile over my linoleum? *ducks and runs* ;)


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Actually Bill, you have no idea HOW MANY TIMES I've been told by so-called 'pros' that you can indeed tile over linoleum, or existing laminate.

I agree with you Bill on the personal service statement. I used to see some of the members who have long finished their kitchens asking similar questions, and doing much the same as is being done now (starting their own thread about something that was done before or asked), but I guess they can't see it. If someone finds something being asked annoying, or have seen it a zillion times before, it just might mean you spend too much time on these forums!!LOL

The newbies are great and if I have the time to participate I do, and if I don't, I just move on and get my butt doing something constructive in 'real' life as I call it.

BTW Bill, thanks for always answering my questions over on the bathroom forum...you've always been so thoughtful and patient :-)


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Mari-- yes I DO have a pretty good idea. Even on JB's PRO forum, we've had "lively" discussions about it. THe problem is that just about every thinset manufacturer has atleast one thinset that they say will stick to vinyl. But that doesn't address a whole slew of OTHER problems attributed to this method of installation, and as a result, it causes alot of confusion. THere are alot of so called experts running around saying it can be done, and in SOME instances, they're right. The problem is that in order to find out IF it can be done in any particular circumstance, you practically need to rip it up, anyway.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Not rude or a bad post, but in line with Tomme's game... who chose "Where do I hang paper towel dispenser/dish towels?" as the next long-time subject to come up?


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

It wasn't my pick, but we knew it was inevitable! Since that question has come up, I predict ''Where do you put your sponges/dishcloths?'' will be soon behind. I notice there's one for dishtowels at the moment!

Fairegold, I'd like to see the link to Tomme's game. Can you provide it?


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Harper was reading our minds...

or reading this thread! How funny....

God love ya, Harper.

Here is a link that might be useful: Another forum member fed up!


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Yeeeee! I was gonna vote for another granite war thread but I thought, nahhhh too soon since the last one. I shoulda bet on it. Cuz here it is...

Here is a link that might be useful: granite is out? let's start another


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Tomme told me that personally when I met her at Ikea last year. I'll email her and make sure she sees this thread.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

This is the first time I ventured into this part of the Forum. I'm glad I did since I can now thank so many of you who were INCREDIBLY helpful with your directions and advice - be it active to me individually or things you commented on other posts.

As someone who started lurking in mid 2005 and really began actively using the site late last year, I can tell you how very useful it is. Of course, its usefulness is completely a function of your gracious willingness to provide information. Although I diligently searched the forum before I asked a question, I think Bill Vincent is correct that sometimes people (including me) thought their question/problem was particular to them. Sorry if any of it seemed trivial. You should know that because there was so much good data (yes, and some rants or requests for assistance on minutia) in the saved pages at least in my case I didn't often have to post a question because the answer already existed. So, you have helped many people you are not even aware of.

We are 90% finished with the kitchen (the contractor believes it will be complete next week - I think there will be a punch list). I am extremely happy with how it is turning out and am sure that it would have cost significantly more and the end results been far inferior without the information I learned here.

You all serve a very important function and I just wanted to let you know how appreciated your guidance has been.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Sorry if any of it seemed trivial.

NONE of it is trivial, and those that think it is should remember back to when they were putting THEIR kitchen together.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

urbangal, that is very nice to hear; Thank you!

I agree with Bill. It's not trivial, especially when it's your kitchen. I know how much support I've received from this place when I needed it most. Fortunately, there are plenty of people who are willing to fill in with answers to questions, give back a little of what they've learned. Some of us are just weary, yet it's hard to kick this place since we all have had so much support from here. I'm still answering questions when I can, but I do tend to go past a lot of the most repetitious ones. That said, friendships have been made over a long period of time, even though I've never met anyone in person!


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Oh Bill that is why I have so much esteem for you. You always treat everyone (and their repetitve questions - including mine) with respect and as if it were the 1st and most important question you had ever answered on the subject.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Budge- I second that. Bill you are one of the forum "greats!"


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You always treat everyone (and their repetitve questions - including mine) with respect and as if it were the 1st and most important question you had ever answered on the subject.

That's because to the person I'm answering it to, it is. :-)


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I went ahead and started a new thread for the Newbies. Please go and add your tips; bump it front and center! It's our opportunity to include everything we can, and um....guide the newbies. You all have such good things offer! Here it is:

Here is a link that might be useful: Newbies Start Here...


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yes it has.

Forum etiquette has changed. People would rather complain, and I think I may be done. I probably need to get a life, anyway! I am officially disgusted.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Luna,
Don't let one bad apple get you down! People are ALWAYS going to complain - you know that! More folks appreciate though and that's what's important.

Do you know, our community bank use to serve coffee & donuts to their customers on Saturday mornings (just being nice) UNTIL a customer (or maybe just a walk-in) actually complained that there wasn't any chocolate donuts left - can you believe?

P.S. If you do decide to get a life, can you take me along?-lol


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Pauline, OMG! What IS IT with people? Do you know I have almost officially let go of anyone in my life who can't be more positive? I refuse to see sad, maudlin movies, or surround myself with complainers, whiners and sad sacks. I am amazed that people would rather pick something to complain about. Beware those people who start a sentence with, ''I don't want to start a war...'' Can't you just hear the Big But(t)?!!


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Claire, I'm pretty much done out there. I've offered a few comments the past week, and all have been ignored. What am I, chopped liver? Anyway, people just don't understand that the more they post redundant questions, the more valuable posts slide into oblivion. If they truly don't want help and don't care, we can't help them. It's like the old saying, "You can bring a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink."

I saw your post as only being helpful. Believe me, if I'd known in the beginning what "hijacking" was, I certainly wouldn't have done it. I often would post similar tribulations on someone else's post to share the joy and not waste a new thread. No one ever blasted me for it either, but I definitely wish I'd known not to do it.

Don't despair...

Proudmama


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Proudmama, thanks for your empathy. I also want to tell you that was a great tip you posted on the Newbies thread. I must have missed that one the first time it rolled around. I appreciate you (and others like Pauline) bringing it back on topic. I only hope when it reaches the end, it's full of things that most will appreciate and find helpful. Now that my face has been rubbed in it, I'm sticking around just to be tenancious...


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Chains Claire de luna to the forum.... please, please, please, all you oldsters must stick around. It's all a cycle...right now I'm totally into the 'new class' whose kitchens are being done presently, fairly short tempered with the cygotes(those in the wee beginning stages), and envious of the 'done' ones who I started out with.(So you know I worship you oldies)

Are some of the newbies a pain? Sure. Of course I just discovered that for months I've probably been the very bane of a dial up's existance. We're all here trying to get info and if we're decent human beings, we stay to help in turn.

I think what's happening is just natural. Things change. People don't mean to upset things but they do. Some people deal with it, others move on. It seems to me the newbies just don't have a handle on how the forum works yet. Pointing it out makes them all defensive. Not pointing it out hurts the forum. But in the end,if enough people care the forum just changes and moves ahead stronger.


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Aw, ramses...

ramses, newbie or kitchen vet, it's all a process, isn't it? (It's kind of fun to be thought of as worshiped however!) If there are seven stages of grief, I wonder how many there are to Kitchen remodeling, or Forum Fatigue?

Thanks for reminding me it's natural. What is unnatural is probably the fact I'm still here...


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Not a newbie and not an oldie. I guess I am a middle child. I have to say that this thread is giving me the "talking behind people's back" vibe. I have a feeling that there will be many lurkers that will stay in lurkedom out of fear of offending the gods. I don't think this thread is positive in any way. I think most of the oldies stay and answer questions because IT FEELS GOOD to do so and help people. I am always surprised when someone says they are "sacrificing" their time to give back. While help is needed and appreciated, it feels good to the person offering it or they wouldn't do it.

The people that annoy people here the most are more than likely the "hit and run" type anyway and I don't think they will benefit from any instructions. I don't think it is "one bad apple" that feels a little put off by it - I think the rest of the barrel are afraid to post. I agree a FAQ is needed but a newbie thread will not work in my view.

I certainly remember what it feels like to be in the throes of a remodel - every question (silly or not) seems so urgent and important. Also, I think when a newbie posts something it is more than doing research - it gives them a chance to bond with each other. "oh you have the same cabinets or I have ikea too". Without that this would be a very boring site and they would never get to know one another.

I reconize many of you here and know you have the best intentions. I just really feel that these types of threads will keep future oldies away! I have been helped immensely by the kind souls here and am extremely appreciative that they stay.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I've offered a few comments the past week, and all have been ignored. What am I, chopped liver?

PRoudmamma-- Welcome to my world. :-) If it makes you feel any better, think of it this way-- you're not just offering your advice to the OP. You're also offering it to anyone who may do a search and COME UPON your advice. Any time I run across a lack of manners, that's the light with which I look upon it. :-)


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I haven't read on the discussion side in a while since my kitchen is done and I'm not as obsessed as I was. I became a member last August when I was beyond TKO, and despite the fact that DH thinks it took forever to finish the kitchen, we were done in October.

I do know that when I was learning, doing, in the middle of it, it was all important. Yes, I used the search function, but after someone told someone else about it. The great thing about the forum was that I was TKO talking to others who understood why I was asking such questions!

I was one who obsessed about everything. But I wasn't necessarily stressed about it, and was surprised when I gave that impression. I posted a What do you put in your corner cabinet? thread that fell off before I saved it. When I re-posted the same thread I got a comment "Why are you so stressed about this" I was a little taken aback. I wasn't stessed about it... I was obsessed about the whole thing. And I ignored the comment and accepted the info everyone (including whoever that was, because I've forgotten) posted.

so, I'll probably stay in conversations... and not go see what I can add or not to discussions. But if I do, I'll try to remember to have patience with the repeat questions
(lessons from the wonderful Bill) and ignore the nasties...

...and proudmama, you were always among the names that I appreciated reading. Bill is absolutely right, as a forum, it's not just the OP we are responding too...


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Hmmm...to me if you begin to feel 'burn out' or just don't want to respond to questions anymore, don't do it! And if you choose to answer someone out of kindness or knowledge, do so, but don't wait to be thanked for it. I've seen way too many threads over the time I've been here with someone pouting and complaining about not being thanked or having to deal with repeat questions.

Move on to something more challenging and rewarding. I would if I started to feel like some of you do...


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Perhaps part of what people are talking about is tone. I've noticed a change in that since I was a regular on kitchens (who can remember so far back? LOL) and it can be off-putting.

My take on it is that many posts now have a demanding tone whereas two years ago they felt less entitled to information and more communal in tone -- "is there anyone out there who can help me with this" rather than "show me your kitchen floors" or "who has pix of blue granite".

But that's just my perception. I don't think the posters mean to be rude though some of the longtime members take it that way.

I now respond only to threads where I can really help or that interest me. Those become fewer and fewer and that's fine.

I've posted on threads re complex sink installs, which I know a bit about, and been ignored and had advice taken from someone who literally hadn't done it yet and really know what they were talking about. Too bad, but what can you say? People will choose what they relate to and facts and experience aren't always the connecting points.

So I've gotten fairly chilled out about all of this. None of us are entitled to lifetime seats, tone or manners cannot be inforced here, nor is there any guarantee that my participation will be appreciated. And various attempts I've seen over the past year to launch a different tone, or tell new people how the forum works have been met with hostility. I posted a thread once asking for more research in advance because there were multiple posts on the same subject on page one -- it's still happening -- and got a lot of hostility -- saying, essentially, who was I to tell people how to use the forum. Posters said that if they put THEIR question on someone elses thread it wouldn't get the same attention as a thread of its own. It's meant as helpful but not perceived that way. So why waste energy on it? If there are routinely 3 seperate threads with the same question on AB granite, then let them wade through the 67 pages. There is more backend now. In the 10-page, off the cliff days, people had to be more careful. Not now and I think that's a big factor.

One funny thing: the technology also makes some experienced members obsolete. Over on appliances Miele DWs have so many new features I can't answer questions I could before because the machines and drying systems have all been changed.

I never expected to be washed up after only 2 years.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

rocogurl, your post - especially your tag line at the end there - made me laugh.

Well you may be all washed up with dishwashers but know that good taste doesn't go out of style. Well, not this year any how. So please do stick around and do help out with the design q's. I've avidly read some threads in the decorating forum that I realized quite early were not at all pertinant or relevant to me but I loved reading 'em for the informed historical perspective you include.

Mariposa, aren't you in the throes or early stages of your kitchen remodel? I wouldn't tick off your asset base here too early ... good manners and decency (or their absence) are what this thread is about and I don't think it is so beyond the pale for people to feel a bit put out at the lack of good manners shown. Conversely, there are others reminding about some of the challenges and scale of the project that can promote what looks like rude behaviour. Its' all good, girlfriend! Chill. :-)


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Very sweet of you to say that, mindstorm, and very much appreciated.

That forum has its own issues which I will never understand.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Mariposa has stated on another thread elsewhere that the forum sometimes feels like an old boys club to her. I was sorry to read that, since I remember when she first started posting she received much sympathy (from the old boys club) for what she had done to her knees during a DIY project. I just wonder what happened that made her feelings change? Mariposa, if you're there, would you enlighten us? I for one, would genuinely like to know how sympathy returns as scorn, because I don't understand it.

I'm personally glad to have a place to come where people don't delight in being rude to each other.

Rococogurl, I know what you mean about technology. Over on the laundry forum, my Miele W/D is now the old, outdated version...


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I've posted on threads re complex sink installs, which I know a bit about, and been ignored and had advice taken from someone who literally hadn't done it yet and really know what they were talking about.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him hook it up to the sink right!! :-)


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

What I miss is the sense of community I used to find here, as if everyone went to school together or lived in the same neighborhood. Although we recently had one, maybe it's time again for another of Lowspark's "Getting to Know You" posts.

Also, I used to love the hilarious threads about remodeling disasters, or comments from strangers, or relationships with subs and GC's. Haven't seen any of those in a while.

I am just flabbergasted by the tone of the "Newbies (Remodeling Beginners?, Amateurs?, Neophytes? LOL) Start Here" thread. I just don't get it at all how anyone could find it controversial. I must be missing something. In the beginning, I would have really appreciated it.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

dat, dat, da da !!! (trumpets here please)

Claire,

The new miele models -- clearly marked with a yellow blip that says NEW! -- have cycles not only for dishes or pots and pans but for actual FOOD. Read it and shriek.

So if you had pasta for lunch you can press the starch button (not you are not seeing things it is s-t-a-r-c-h and not s-t-a-r-t) and the dw will wash the plates completely clean on the cycle for starch.

I can't say much more. And I cannot help. My question: if you had pasta for lunch and eggs for dinner and the dw is filled with half of each of the plates, which cycle do you choose?

LOL!

Which is why I said I was all washed up. I merely have a Miele with condenser drying and a hidden panel. Nowhere near as interesting as 14 cycles geared to food!

Truly, they couldn't make this stuff up and have it get any better. And yes, it costs, like, $1300.

So, get outta da way old timers. You haven't been upgraded!

Here is a link that might be useful: What came first, the pasta or the egg?


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adoptedbygreyhounds, I guess I'm missing something as well. You know, a lot of people don't actually listen to each other, but instead jump from a place inside their own heads. It's less a reflection of what the ''conversation'' is about and much more about what's going on with them. To me, it reveals far more about that person than they probably even know. That said, I remember those remodeling days well. If you think about the bad diet, dysfunctional carpenters and sometimes absent contractors (not to mention everything else that frequently goes wrong) much of it can probably be chalked up to Stress and/or Constipation...

mindstorm, Yes. I agree, and appreciate your point of view.

Bill, No Kidding. It's amazing how people don't value what they don't know about, even when they've asked for help.


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You're right Bill. Facts can be confusing.


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O M G. Rococogurl, if that is pure genius (as they claim), then I'm stuck on stupid and glad to be there. I can't imagine the quandries I'd have just picking the correct cycle!

I remember several decades ago when I intentionally picked a car with the advertising slogan of ''We Keep It Simple''...


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Or we can think of it this way: if one of us actually must buy something new in the future things will have changed so much that we'll need advice. And we'll be newbies again. Oy.


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lol @ rococogurl, so true!


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My question: if you had pasta for lunch and eggs for dinner and the dw is filled with half of each of the plates, which cycle do you choose?

Cake?


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I am slackjawed at this DW. No wonder people are cranky. Too many choices!

Without even going into the issue of trying to remember each of these 19 cycles, trying to figure out which type of soil I'd have, or trying to turn the dw on if I've left my glasses in the other room (anyone puzzled by that statement should wait 10 years or call your mother) here are the La Perla 19 cycle options! So what DO you use for cake and does coffee cake require a different cycle than birthday cake?

Pots & Pans For washing pots, pans and preparation dishes with dried-on food particles
Normal For washing average soiled dishes with light fatty residues
China & Crystal For washing temperature sensitive items such as china and crystal stemware
Economy For washing lightly soiled dishes with light fatty residues
SaniWash For washing and sanitizing heavily soiled dishes
Short A quick wash program for cleaning lightly soiled, temperature sensitive items
Rinse & Hold Used to rinse items when a complete cycle is not required
Heavy Soil For heavy soiled dishes with dried-on food particles containing starch
SensorWash Sensor controlled program for normally soiled dishes
WaterSaver Particularly low water consumption
EnergySaver For washing lightly soiled dishes using standard household water temperatures. The water intake temperature should be at least 115F

Specialty Wash Programs
Plastics For gentle cleaning of dishwasher-proof plastics
Cheese For pots, pans and dishes heavily soiled with cheese
Starch For pots, pans and dishes heavily soiled with starch
Large Items (soiled) For oversized items that are not heat-sensitive
Large Items (normal) For oversized, heat-sensitive items
Glass - No Rinse Aid For cleaning glasses without rinse aid
Glass - No Rinse Aid Cold For cleaning glasses for immediate re-use without rinse aid
Plate Warming For warming dishes for immediate use


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Just reading the instructions would take longer than washing the dishes by hand.


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Hmmm. There go the water savings. Coz obviously you need to wash your plastics separately from your cheesy dishes from your starchy ones... and god help you if you drink too much water on the wrong days!

Either that or choose your daily menu (in our case half-weekly menu) by dishwasher categories.

I say we have the FDA build a food pyramid built around dishwasher cycles.


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So...what if you have plates with starch and cheese? (Macaroni and cheese.) Which will it be?

This reminds me of those manufacturers who ''overimprove'' certain models, which no one then wants because they are too complicated. Not to mention, with so many different cycles, there's way too much that can go wrong when something happens. I wonder how much time a simple repair would take! Can't you just hear the questions at the Miele hotline?

Someone there has forgotten we're not all appliance geeks.

No, thank you. I just want to start the thing and walk away...


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It's time to get a 3 compartment dish hamper for your kitchen to sort the dishes before you start. Hmm, which cabinets should these be installed in? Don't forget to treat "stains" beforehand.


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Realizing I'd hijacked this thread (sort of -- sometimes at the end it counts less, right?) I thought I should post over in appliances to see what folks think over there.

Someone pointed out a column in the Boston Globe by Ellen Goodman, just two days ago, on essentially the same topic. So I linked that on the thread linked here.

The other thing that struck me are the newest refrigerators. Thermador has a new line coming out that's basically a refrigerator built like a pantry cupboard: 84" high by 24" wide. They call them "freedom towers". Just like ground zero. Oy. What are they thinking?

I can totally go with a 24" undercab refrigerator and I adore my wine cooler -- same dimensions. But would I need a stepstool to get the cream cheese if it's in the back on the top shelf of the towering refrigerator????

Here is a link that might be useful: Feature Fatique


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Not that the DW convesation isn't fascinating (well, ok, it's not to me - I have a "simple" KA DW and DH does all the dishwashing so it's not my bayliwick but hey, I'm trying to be polite!) but I'm going to go back on topic. Well sort of. :)

I so want to scream and pull my hair out at the newbie thread. I just don't get it and I've come this close to quitting kitchens and may still. The pettiness and repeatedness of the argument has really got me down.

Mommy! She called me a "newbie". Does this smack of childishness to anyone else but me? It's been stated and restated what the intent of the thread is, yet folks keep insisting that we're telling them what to do.

It's simple. We're offering advice (as we do on so many threads). Don't like it? Don't take it. Period. Oh well.

And as for a certain MT, her tone has been the same since she joined this forum oh so long ago. She came out bashing things she knew nothing about. It wasn't noticed by all, and she does consistently post her personal tribulations here on conversations and gets great responses, then proceeds to make uncalled for comments elsewhere. I've seen her do it a dozen times at least. I stopped reading her posts long ago, just not interested.

Oh well, anyone reading, go ahead and bash me, I don't care anymore. I've tried so hard to be nice on these forums, I've been so careful to try to word things in the right way and to help where I can -- because I'm so thankful of the immeasurable amount of help I received when I needed it. Maybe this past occurance is just a sign that I've given back what I owed and now I should move on. Who knows.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Some of you cannot see the way you respond at times to the newer members. You gripe about the continuous posts on what you might feel is not so important without realising that there are 'new' or 'newer' members out there who are sometimes afraid to ask a question! How sad is that, huh?

One thing I find very interesting though is the fact that some individuals decided to try and hit me on something that was personal and painful at the time i.e. knee surgery. What your bringing up of my trials and tribulations has to do with this topic baffles me. We all have trials in our lives...let's hope you have less than some of us. I'm not the only one who has ever brought personal problems on the board, and won't be the last. I would however at this time take the opportunity to warn others to take their personal stuff elsewhere. I think it's very low to bring up my past problems, and I cannot see the logical point of its use now...pretty much grade school attitude to be honest.

I came to this forum to get advice like you did and like hundreds of others do. I wasn't aware that any of you started this forum, or that when you first came on board, you were full of knowledge...you learned it like the rest of us...from others who had walked the walk, not so? I distinctly remember reading nearly the same type of problems before, and the hysterics when something went wrong. Questions haven't changed much...yours wasn't all that earth shattering either.

I've seen the tone and attitude change by some of the 'oldies' here and maybe you all are just tired? Maybe you're such pros now that all the trials and tribulations of the newer members seem boring and trivial? Whatever it is, please take some time to reaccess your attitude and maybe you'll see why I posted on both threads. Whether you want to believe it or not, some of you come across very condescending to our newer members.

Good night.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I appreciate the frustrations that some people are expressing and I too experienced giving lengthy responses especially via email which were not acknowleged but I think maggie2094 makes some good points and Bill makes a good role model. I'm glad I was a newbie long before Conversations was added, back in the days when Spike kept a tight rein on OT topics on the forums. Then, the worst that a newbie would get was a sharp knuckle rap by AKAs_TJ (who pretty much sticks to Laundry these days) but it was directed at a specific person and a specific incident. This isn't the first thread lamenting the deterioration of the forum and talking negatively about newbies in general as if they're deaf and blind. I can picture it being pretty off-putting and I wonder how many new people have been 'lost'. Although it's Conversations, it's still an open forum and not a private conversation.

In the old days, the old timers 'monitored' newbies even more when there was a very limited number of threads and there was always the issue of presentation and reception which requires sensitivity to the fact that communication is limited to written words. However I think we need to be aware and (beware) of setting up an us/them situation as seems to be happening now. As maggie said, a big part of the value of this forum is the bonding experience with contemporaries, not just the experience of the old timers being passed down.

As time goes by, I still read but I respond less and less. Thanks to seekingadvice for continuing to 'speak' for me when the Dacor downdraft topic comes up (again and again) :-).


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Well, I for one am sorry that it has been perceived that we all must think newbies are deaf and blind. That was never my intention. I'm perfectly content to let the ''newbie'' thing drop, since the fallout has been much more toxic than I ever anticipated, and I (and many others) are not coming from that place. I can see that approaching this from a different angle may have made the ''tone'' of this issue easier to digest; at the same time I am sad that people prefer to jump to their own conclusions without understanding. Have you heard that old joke? ''Sure, I exercise! I jump to conclusions.''

I would feel remiss however, if I didn't address this one thing...especially since we have all been advised repeatedly to ignore certain posts if we're not interested in them. I am certainly interested in this one however and would appreciate a straight answer to straightforward question.

Mariposa, perhaps you are referring to my post...Mariposa has stated on another thread elsewhere that the forum sometimes feels like an old boys club to her. I was sorry to read that, since I remember when she first started posting she received much sympathy (from the old boys club) for what she had done to her knees during a DIY project. I just wonder what happened that made her feelings change? Mariposa, if you're there, would you enlighten us? I for one, would genuinely like to know how sympathy returns as scorn, because I don't understand it.

I'm sorry if you think there is any malice behind the question, however I can assure you there is not. I just don't think that way. I don't feel any need to attack others, because I know my thoughts and attitude genuinely come from a good place. I also don't take your statements personally, because although you may think my comments are condescending, I don't intend them to be. If you'll read your current statements, you are the one issuing Warnings. What's that about? Frankly, I am equally baffled by your attitude, especially when you received so much support in the past from the same people you feel the need to warn. It's a simple statement of fact which has nothing to do with your former troubles, yet everything to do with your support base. If you wouldn't attack people, you wouldn't feel such a need to be defensive.

Actually, I'm not tired at all by the fresh faces I see at the kitchen forum. It's more fair to say I am tired of those who seem to be intentionally obtuse in their judgments, or those who don't listen. It's just a thought, but I'm wondering Mariposa...could it be you are suffering from the same malady of discontent that you are accusing others of?

Perhaps you might be more understood if you would address the questions directly. It is my perception that you have completely missed the point. Did you know that when you point a finger at someone else, there are four more pointing back at you?


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

I'll tell ya-- with threads like this one and the newbies thread, I wish this forum DID have moderators, and I was one of em. These two threads would disappear in a HEARTBEAT!! To paraphrase the old "with friends like these" cliche, with threads like these, who needs TROLLS!!

Threads like these seem to get everyone in an uproar, bickering and fighting with each other-- even people who've gotten along for months (and in some cases, YEARS).

Bottom line-- if you don't like the questions, don't answer them! If you can offer some constructive help, DO answer them, but don't be sitting there waiting for a pat on the back for it-- it doesn't always come.

If you can't deal with those parameters, then maybe it's time to move on.

Ever hear the alcoholics' prayer? Change the things you can, accept the things you can't, and know the difference between the two? This is one of those things you CAN'T change, so either you accept it and deal with it, or move on.

End of story.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

AMEN, Bill....Both of these threads should have been deleted long ago...


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Bill, you said it perfectly: "Bottom line-- if you don't like the questions, don't answer them! If you can offer some constructive help, DO answer them, but don't be sitting there waiting for a pat on the back for it-- it doesn't always come.

If you can't deal with those parameters, then maybe it's time to move on."

Thank you.


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A simple statement of fact...

I have no problem with this, since I've been practicing it for years. I do notice however, it's terribly convenient advice for those who like to start fires (yet don't give much back that's truly constructive).

Shall we all move on from this topic?


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

"What your bringing up of my trials and tribulations has to do with this topic baffles me."

Mari, I was just as baffled. If you feel there tends to be an "old boys' club" atmosphere here at the KF, why would you initiate threads of a personal and/or sensitive nature, eliciting advice and sympathy from those same folks? Call me crazy, but the last thing I would do, is put my life out there for folks I didn't feel comfortable with.

The ironic thing is that the suggestions made by Luna on the 'newbie thread' are addressed in the Management's Rules and Instructions (specifically; please search before posting + no double posting). Why shoot the messenger, then?

Bill, perhaps that's where the frustration eminates - I don't think anyone's looking for a pat on the back (as nice as that would be), but let everyone follow the rules and a little common curtesy ~


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a little common curtesy

At first I read this as "a little common curtsy." Yes, let's all follow the rules and then do a little curtsy! It would be so polite. :D


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I think some of you people need to get off the computer and go get a life. For a silly little internet forum to cause you so much grief is idiotic.

Stumpy


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Oh yeah-- that's JUST what this forum needs is to see me doing a curtsy!! ROTFLMAO

Should I take my kneepads off first? :-)


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Sure Bill! I'd like to see that with or without your kneepads...


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But if I did a little common curtsy, would I be able to get back up again? That is the question.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

Claire-- be careful what you ask for!! :-)


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Aw, c'mon Bill...I think it might just cheer me up. Add a bandana to go with the biker look along with your knee pads, and you could just make my day.

Wooderlander, only you know for sure. I'm pretty sure that would be difficult for me...It's good to have people waiting in the wings in case you need...uh...a physical aid.


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

"GONE WITH THE WIND"

SPIKE, why did you leave us?


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RE: Has forum etiquette vanished...

HEY C de L, lowspark, paulines, fairgold, Bill, weed, mindstorm et al...It's been months and months and months since I've logged onto the Kitchen forum. How is everyone? I know this thread is OLD but in my search for 'Tapmaster' I found this thread and since (the lack of) etiquette is a big issue with me (Where oh where has it gone??), I had to see what this was all about. Wouldn't you know it....Bill offering to show C de L what he looks like sans his kneepads :o Is that legal??
What am I doing here? Well, the other day, while in the kitchen and making full use of my beloved Tapmaster, I wondered how long it had been since the subject has been mentioned here on the Kitchen Forum. Would hate it if some newbie TKOs created their dream kitchen without at least knowing about it. That's why I was searching Tapmaster and I see it has been recently discussed. Good!
I'm doing well. I have a BEAUTIFUL 8 month old grandson named Thatcher. Oh, you think it's just a proud grammuffy talking when I say he's beautiful?? What's that?? You want to see proof? Ok, if you insist There are 10 pages of pictures You're more than welcome to browse them if you've nothing better to do :) I watch him twice as week while mommy is finishing her teaching degree. There's not enough letters on the keyboard to describe how much we love this precious child :)
My best friend and I just got back from Las Vegas. We didn't go to 'do the Vegas thing', our trip was about the Grand Canyon and we had to fly into and stay in Vegas. We did see Phantom of the Opera at the Venetian tho A treat of a lifetime! Spectacular. Second row, center. A dream come true as I've followed this musical from day one.
Took a small plane to the Grand Canyon and rode 4-wheelers for 2.5 hours all up and down the canyon. One of God's better works to say the least :)) It was THE most fun!
Well, I hope the forum's ebb has turned more kind and patient. There is a wealth of information and support (and wonderful people) on this forum. I can't believe how long some have stayed on offering help after they finished their kitchens. I stayed quite awhile (class of 2002) and still have my kitchen pictures up and answer questions when someone emails me at my pbase acct. Kudos to all those that are still here and helping :)
We still haven't started our bathroom remodels. Husband has to finish is shop as I'm tired of my patio being the 'construction zone'. So nice touching base with all of you. I'll check back and see if anyone remembers me :)
Oh, and who is keeping Bill on his toes by arguing with him?? SOMEone has to!
Monica

Here is a link that might be useful: Beautiful Grandson


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Hi Monica! (Long time...) Thatcher is beautiful, and how he's grown! We're just finishing up the last of our bathroom remodel (you know I put that off for a good reason and now I'm reminded what it was) and I'm glad it's almost done. Check your e-mail in the next few days, I'd love to catch up with you.


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Monica!!! That little bean of yours is captivating and absolutely beautiful - I love the two little teeth! Please come around more often, you were such an asset to this forum and so much fun to have around.

Hey Luna!, how ya doing?

Ok Bill, what'd want to fight about - gotta keep you on your toes, per Monica, lol

I had to chuckle rereading the above thread, the "attention seeking one" is still up to her old tricks - even created a dual persona. Some things never change, lol


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monikam, how nice to hear from you !!!! I have a 2 year old grandson now; I understand how in love you must be !! I also have an art gallery now to manage so I'm not on the forums as much but I'm up very early and that's when I check in or else now when dh is away in the evening.
I still remember your quest for those silicone spoons !!
We'll be moving within the year so I read and try to get ideas for my next kitchen.

don't be a stranger and come back once in a while !!!!


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hey Lady!! Sounds like you're doing all right!! As for arguing with me, there's a whole forum that would love to tack my hide on a wall (hot topics)!! But that's a different story. :-) Over here, I'm still a nice guy.

That's one good lookin grandson!! Talk about BLUE eyes!! WOW!! He looks like he can be a real handfull too, if he gets a mind to be!! LOL


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Monica, Did you get my e-mail? Has your address changed? If you didn't, please e-mail me your new address so I can resend.


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It's nice to know I haven't been forgotten :) I came back to this thread an hour ago and got sidetracked by chiefneil's beautiful house :) I SURE wish I had high speed when I hung out on the forum 24/7

C de L, no, didn't get your email. I hope you still have a copy of it in your sent folder. My email address has changed. It's monicakm@...well, I guess I better use my gmail acct right now. Never know who's lurking. monicakm@gmail.com I can't wait to see pictures of your bathrooms.

paulines, OK, I'm counting on you to keep Bill on his toes. He gets the impression, sometimes, that he knows more about stone installation than us women-folk :)) I don't know, some nonsense about doing it for a living :P

mitchdesj, managing a gallery...now why can I SO see you doing that :) Perfect! Do you enjoy it? Lucky you getting to design a new kitchen...on a TKO would know that's not a sarcastic remark Those silicone spoons (with the steel handles! Every time I pick one up I'm in awe of how great they are Have we EVER seen your entire kitchen? I don't think I did. Would LOVE to tho :)

Bill, Bill, Bill. Have you learned nothin'? So who have you got wanting to tan (and hang)your hide? It's not the JB forum is it? As for hides, if the color is right (can't be too pasty), I might consider hanging yours on my wall next to my Texas Longhorn cowhide

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your kind words about my "Baby McDreamy"...that's what I've called him since he was 1 week old and I took this picture (link below). I can barely think of anything else when he's not here. As soon as he leaves, I'm counting the hours till he's back in my arms :) This grammuffy has it BAD

Monica

Here is a link that might be useful: Baby McDreamy


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I remember your kitchen. You have the beautiful granite tile countertops and you were so kind when I was new and asking questions about it.

Your grandson is precious. My grandson is 19 months and I keep telling everyone he is my reward for not killing my teenagers.


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Hiya, Monica! I'm Class of '04, so I guess I was a sophomore when you were a senior! I remember how you touted--er--explained the Tapmaster to the uninitiated. I'm ever grateful that I learned about it, as DH and I have been very happy with it for the past 3 years. A belated thank-you!

And, guess what? I've got two of those silicone spoons, too (one is slotted). They're great!

I've gravitated to the Cooking Forum, but I still check back here occasionally to come to the defense of Corian and contribute my 2 cents from time to time. I love catching up with old friends here, especially on the Conversations side.

I remember the photos of your DD's wedding, and now she's a Mommy! Your GS is absolutely adorable! You're so lucky to have the pleasure of taking care of him on a regular basis. I'm still an empty-nester, with no grandchildren. But I do have two precious babies, a great-niece and a great-nephew, who were born on the same day a few months ago. I only wish I lived closer to them.

Thanks for stopping by. Don't be a stranger! :-)

Sue


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OH that's that GOOD one sugarbreak (your reward)! Don't mind if I use it occasionally do you? Bill Cosby says grandparents are just old people trying to get into heaven...his reply when HIS kids think they're grandparents are the MOST wonderful people ever
Thank you for the compliment on my kitchen and Baby McDreamy :) I so enjoyed doing my part to help others on this forum. I wouldn't have the kitchen I have today if it wasn't for the great group of people here (and on the JB Tile forum). And horrors of horrors, I wouldn't have my TAPMASTER :)) I think that's what God would have created on the 7th day if he hadn't decided to rest


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monica-- I've gotta say, that is one of the darn cutest babies I've ever seen!! No wonder you're so in love. No, you don't remember me because I've only been around for about 9 months, (and still haven't even started my project.) My kids are older teenagers and I'm just ga-ga when I get to be around someone's baby/toddler. I too am in awe of the lovely people here who are sooooo helpful, especially the ones who finished long ago and answer questions over and over. Thanks for sharing your pictures!


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monica, that baby is picture perfect, what a doll.

my kitchen does not photograph well and I've hated my cabs since day one; but since you mentioned it, here's the link...
I'm posting it since this thread will reach it's limit soon.
It's been fun to visit with you !!

Here is a link that might be useful: rustic kitchen


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Well, Monica....you have some powerful mojo girl, because I think this is the first time anyone has ever seen Mitch's kitchen in its entirety. I do remember asking to see it a very long time ago!

I also remember your backsplash Mitch from a brief picture in the very beginning of my time at Gardenweb, which I absolutely LOVE. As far as artistic backsplashes go, yours is among my most favorite (then and now). I also love the miles of counterspace and think your kitchen would still inspire some people. Thanks for sharing it.


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Gosh mitchdesj, you must think I'm horrible! I AM :o You were so kind as to finally show your kitchen in it's entirety and I don't even comment on it :( Please forgive me!
It is as beautiful and special as I thought it would be. I absolutely adore your curved counter and the pattern of your floor tile. Would you mind sharing the name of your floor tile? Very VERY nice indeed! Thank you for sharing it with us :)
Monica


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