athome, that is an interesting article on how semantics shapes our thoughts and decisions. The article is 10 years old, so the reference citations are even older. However, I am proud to say that I was the production editor of Epidemiology when Reference 3 was published! I know that the article was peer-reviewed and that the journal's editor and editorial board enforced rigorous standards for research methodology and statistical analysis. Here is the abstract:

Epidemiology. 1994 May;5(3):324-31.

Exposure to breastmilk in infancy and the risk of breast cancer.

Freudenheim JL, Marshall JR, Graham S, Laughlin R, Vena JE, Bandera E, Muti P, Swanson M, Nemoto T.

Department of Social and Preventive Medicine, State University of New York at Buffalo 14214.

Early childhood nutrition may affect the subsequent risk of breast cancer in adulthood. We examined the association of having been breastfed with risk of breast cancer in a case-control study of women age 40-85 years in western New York. Cases (N = 528) had newly diagnosed primary, pathologically confirmed breast cancer; controls (N = 602) were randomly selected from the same community and were frequency matched on age. Having been breastfed was associated with decreased risk. The multivariate adjusted odds ratio was 0.74, and the 95% confidence interval was 0.56-0.99. We found little difference in the association for pre- and postmenopausal women despite a much higher frequency of breastfeeding among the older women. These findings indicate that early nutriture in general and bottle feeding in particular may relate to breast cancer development in adulthood.

PMID: 8038247 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Now, this is just one study, based on a small sample in a single geographic location, and it is 12 years old. Since 1994, there have probably been other epidemiologic studies on this question; a large study, preferably a multinational (or at least multi-institutional) series, would be needed to confirm and support the conclusions of this particular study.

It's waaay past my bedtime, but tomorrow, if I have time (and it will be a busy day), I'll see whether I can find any updates in the literature.

Sue

My DD was born in Italy. There was never any question whatsoever about breastfeeding. A few hours after she was born they wheeled her into my room and showed me what to do. There was no discussion of bottles or any other method.

Like Snookums, I nursed my DD everywhere (my favorite place was the Boboli Gardens) and no one looked at me askance; In fact, people would walk by and smile and nod at the young mother nursing her baby. It was such a positive and encouraging environment. In fact, I even nursed my best friend's baby (she didn't have a whole lot of milk and so asked me to do it). I guess you can say I was a wet nurse for awhile. In the USA I probably would have been arrested! But in Italy it was an act of friendship and love.

What an interesting article! Thanks. I'll send it on to my daughters. The way language shapes our thoughts is one of my favorite topics.

Re: being a wet nurse. My best friend had three kids just about exactly the same ages as my three. Once a week, one of us would care for all of them so the other could have a few hours' free time. Part of the deal was that we nursed one other's babies, as they had never had a bottle. It was great being able to get away knowing the babies wouldn't starve and scream while we were gone. We used to laugh about how different the babies' breastfeeding "styles" were. No arrests so far, but those kids are in their thirties now.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and prayers. We can use all we can get and appreciate it all. Also have to add that as stressful as renovating/remodelling was; it was one of the most fun things I have ever done. On days when I have the energy; I so enjoy cooking in my perfect (for me) kitchen and we all eat together at the table even on days when i need to be carried downstairs (that is not too often). It doesn't have to be grand but a family gathering place and sense of "home" is so important. Especially during trying times.

Thank you again for your kind thoughts!

Hollybolly, Many sincere blessings your way. May you be healed for His glory. Your post was so very humbling and moving.

And to everyone else that has breast fed, I find myself envious. I posted the harsh sounding, but very true story above about a former client under vasheri name above. (My old screen name was the only one that worked when I posted...now I'm on the new name, which suddenly started working again. Go Figure.) Any way, "P", the mother at the pool, was a display artist. Believe me, I cannot imagine anyone, ever, letting their child "handle" breast feeing in public like this. OK, maybe a 2 year old that doesn't know better, but honestly, this was something to behold. I think any professional would have eyed this scene suspect of "something". Specifically, there was nothing "motherly" about her actions. It was all about who would be watching her son display her breast and 'how' he handled her breast. I've seen hundreds of children nurse, but never like this! Honest to goodness, it's been at least 15 years or more since that happened, so I'm older remembering the scenario, and I am still persuaded to think the same thing now as I did then. She let her son nurse in any manner he wanted. There was nothing affectionate about it.

I have no problem whatsoever with breast feeding and support it 100%. My own children had horrific allergies to formulas. No milk from cow, goat, soy, or coconut would suffice. It was some version of potato milk that they survived.

Why didn't I breast feed? Well, honestly, I thought I would smoother the cuties. My breasts were so huge, no joke. The literally tore from my chest wall and I had to have them fixed after baby #2. I've never seen posted anywhere, or heard of a huge breasted woman state what I'm stating. There's no way that my children could have fed without me having to lay down every time. My breasts were too huge and heavy to even try to hold up so they could nurse. It was a ridiculous consideration and my doctors agreed once they saw my predicament. Imagine having breast torn from your chest and landing in your lap, then filled to the point where they were larger than your baby's head. THAT was me. It looked like some grotesque charicature cartoon. They're fixed now, but for many years, I was in misery.

So, I find myself envious this morning of your stories of nursing, bonding, etc. I can honestly say, I never felt that intimacy that you describe. I wish I did. My children and I are close, but I wonder how things could have been different.

Sheri:

Really, things wouldn't be that different. Take it from someone with about 10 years of nursing behind her. The beauty of the way we are created is that there are many ways to be intimate with our children. Nursing is one way, a very good way, to establish a close bond with one's newborn, but it certainly isn't the only way. My now-older breastfed children still talk-back, run out of the room in anger, and disobey. Emotional intimacy is an on-going thing, rooted in physcial contact with your children. Try to touch them when you're talking to them, sit next them when they're in the room, give them a hug at the end of the day. Doing these things are the challenges every mother and father faces with their children as they grow up. Stress eats a family up, because the emotional peace and genrousity required for real intimacy is no longer there. And then they're all grown up and gone!

Holly:

Thank you for posting your perspective. It is beautiful and profound, and I know it is very, very real. I'm sorry that you and your family are suffering. You are in my prayers.

Wow, there are a ton of responses, and I have only read about 10 of them. But I really hope you read this.

Having children was the single most wonderful thing I have done in my life. PERIOD. Better than marriage, career, etc.

I cannot tell you how enriched my life has been because of being a mother. And it does change you, for the better, I am convinced. You see the entire world and every tiny thing that goes on, thru different eyes when you are a parent. You truly become less selfish.

My son is 22 and a joy to be around. He carries on intelligent conversations and is hysterically funny. He is still going to college and lives at home (I feel blessed). He is going to be a writer, and we edit his work and go over ideas together. When he comes home late at night from his P/T server job, he sits & talks to me about his day, the news, our travel plans, etc. I love it.

I absolutely cherish my 19 yr old daughter. She also lives at home and has a boyfriend she will probably marry. It's so wonderful to be able to share this & guide her as she grows. I am thrilled that she opens up to me and talks about her feelings, friends, issues, everything.

My kids still enjoy vacationing with us... Europe this coming summer. When they move out, our plans are still to vacation together at least once a year. I will need anti-depressants when they leave, I think. I will miss them so.
I never have been one of these "I can't wait till they leave" parents. I've attended all the soccer, softball, football, basketball games, field trips, open houses, etc. and loved every minute.

I am continually amazed at the power of my love for my kids. I tell them that only when they have babies will they understand the strength of my love for them.

I've been married to a great guy 28 years so it's not that my kids are my only life. But they will make it wonderful until the day I die.

Following this thread and hesitating to write. Such a personal and profound decision in life.

Couple things though I want to add:

First, my work involves contact with elderly, and these are largely healthy, educated, solvent elderly. For every one reveling in family there seem to be ten who have virtually been abandoned. Some are in pain over it, many are curiously resigned. The point is, please, please, please do *not* have children expecting them to be there in your old age. Terrific if they are, but it may not happen.

Second, when I worked as a therapist I heard many, many people say (in that private place) what no one will say here: I regret having my children. It is a very sad thing, but some people really do end up feeling that way.

Last, life yields surprises. Take me, my best friend, my sister, my other sister, my sister-in-law, my brother and another brother. Among us we have been dealt (order scrambled for privacy):

-infertility, successful artificial insemination for a daughter, then, whoops, twins and a fourth outa nowhere
-an early death leaving 10 and 12 year old sons
-a sole late arrival daughter dying at 8 of a sudden brain aneurysm
-a son on the first plane to hit the Trade Center 9/11
-infertility, unsuccessful interventions
-two wonderful sons, a divorce, and a better marraige
-four great kids (one disabled), 10 grandkids and counting...

The thing is there are so many different ways life can turn out. And while none of us signed on for what we got, we wouldn't be who we are with different lives.

Just make the best decision you can and buckle in for the ride. Odds are it won't be what you think.

Snookums,

Your doctors were taking simple historys, mine ask the same questions(they dont bother
with the breastfeeding ones). Did they tell you that you are now in a higher risk category
for developing breast cancer? Pregnancy and breast feeding may reduce a womans risk
of getting breast cancer, it is not the golden pill you are touting it to be, there are many
other factors that will come into play and most people who are diagnosed with breast
cancer dont fall into any of the high risk categories. My maternal aunt had 2 children,
both breast fed in her early 20s, in her early 30s she was diagnosed with breast cancer.
My Mother had me(her only child) in her very late 20s, she did breastfeed me but for
less time since there is only one of me. Statistically based solely on pregnancy and
breastfeeding my mother was more likely to have breast cancer, but she hasnt so far and
my aunt luckily 30 plus years later is still around. The possibility that you may be in a
lower risk category for breast cancer is a pretty weak reason for having children.

http://cc.ucsf.edu/cis/ask_cis_q109.html
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/pregnancy
http://www.cancer.gov/cancerinfo/ere-workshop-report
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/treatment/breast-cancer-and-pregnancy/patient/a
llpages
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_6x_Pregnancy_and_Breast_Cancer.as
p?sitearea=

One of the above is the results of a study the rest are summaries, the last links to
additional studies.

With about 45 million Americans with out health care and untold millions who have
HMOs with questionable ethics it is a stretch to assume that every woman gets access to
even basic tests not to mention the very expensive ones. And most breast cancers are first
discovered by the women, fancy tests wont help if she isnt doing her part. Not to pick
on the American lack of health care here is a Canadian story. I my self am scheduled for
a MRI, it is for September but they hope I can get in by July. A earlier appointment will
largely depend on how many people in front of me die before their appointments, I have
been waiting already for several months. When I get lucky enough to go for my turn I
will have to drive more than 4 hours in one direction cross 3 Provinces and pay a $40.
toll, I am just so glad we have a free health care system. Luckily I am not going for any
thing life threatening, so the people scheduled after me are just going to have to wait
their turn.

I cant help if your reading comprehension is lacking. "Suggesting (incorrectly) that
breastfeeding could increase your risk of cancer..", I never said any thing close to that.

"I only mentioned that having a baby and nursing was good for your health, and could be
a factor in deciding whether or not to have a baby versus remaining childless." There are
many complications that exist only for women who have children, they are greatly
lessened in the industrialized world but still present. I wonder if the several hundred
women who die in the US every year from pregnancy or child birth are counted in your
"good health" plan?

Sue,

Anyone who bases important life decision like raising a child on the possibility that some
members of society may "freak out" is lacking the intelligence, moral character and spine
to be responsible for anything more complicated than a bowl of Sea Monkeys. Not one of
the women you know could figure out how to buy a cooler, some ice packs and a manual
or battery operated breast pump? Both of my Grandmothers were professionals and
figured out how to do it in the 30s and 40s.

It is a huge stretch to blame breastfeeding on husbands being worthless. What the women
in your circle(at least the ones you are describing) need to under stand is that they are
apparently married to LOSERS, I would bet my life they were losers when they married
them and will be when they die. Unfortunately instead of coming to terms with the fact
that they have used questionable judgment in the past by first marrying and than breeding
with a jerk they are going to spend the rest of their lives justifying the mans behavior, "if
I would of just done..........he would be better", no sorry dear he would still be a idiot and
so would you for picking him.

"The thing is there are so many different ways life can turn out. And while none of us signed on for what we got, we wouldn't be who we are with different lives.

Just make the best decision you can and buckle in for the ride. Odds are it won't be what you think. "

Beautifully said, Celtic. Amen.

I had to post this hilarious email here, since so many mothers are tuning into this discussion. Not that it will sway anyone about the parenthood decision, but it is so funny!

Why God made moms...

Why God made moms" answers given by elementary school age children to the
following questions:
Why did God make mothers?

1. She's the only one who knows where the scotch tape is.
2. Mostly to clean the house.
3. To help us out of there when we were getting born.
   How did God make mothers?
4. He used dirt, just like for the rest of us.
5. Magic plus super powers and a lot of stirring.
6. God made my Mom just the same like he made me. He just used bigger
   parts.
   What ingredients are mothers made of?
7. God makes mothers out of clouds and angel hair and everything nice in the world and one dab of mean.
8. They had to get their start from men's bones. Then they mostly use
   string, I
   think.
   Why did God give you your mother and not some other Mom?
9. We're related.
10. God knew she likes me a lot more than other people's moms like me.
    What kind of little girl was your Mom?
11. My Mom has always been my Mom and none of that other stuff.
12. I don't know because I wasn't there, but my guess would be pretty bossy. 3. They say she used to be nice.
    What did Mom need to know about dad before she married him?
13. His last name.
14. She had to know his background. Like is he a crook? Does he get drunk
    on beer?
15. Does he make at least $800 a year? Did he say NO to drugs and YES to
    chores?
    Why did your Mom marry your dad?
16. My dad makes the best spaghetti in the world. And my Mom eats a lot. 2. She got too old to do anything else with him.
17. My grandma says that Mom didn't have her thinking cap on.
    Who's the boss at your house?
18. Mom doesn't want to be boss, but she has to because dad's such a goof
    ball.
19. Mom. You can tell by room inspection. She sees the stuff under the bed. 3. I guess Mom is, but only because she has a lot more to do than dad.
    What's the difference between moms and dads?
20. Moms work at work & work at home, & dads just go to work at work. 2. Moms know how to talk to teachers without scaring them.
21. Dads are taller & stronger, but moms have all the real power 'cause
    that's who
    you got to ask if you want to sleep over at your friend's.
    4.Moms have magic, they make you feel better without medicine.
    What does your Mom do in her spare time?
22. Mothers don't do spare time.
23. To hear her tell it, she pays bills all day long.
    What would it take to make your Mom perfect?
24. On the inside she's already perfect. Outside, I think some kind of
    plastic
    surgery.
25. Diet. You know, her hair. I'd diet, maybe blue.
    If you could change one thing about your Mom, what would it be?
26. She has this weird thing about me keeping my room clean. I'd get rid
    of that.
27. I'd make my Mom smarter. Then she would know it was my sister who did
    it and
    not me.
28. I would like for her to get rid of those invisible eyes on her back.
    
    THE MOMMY TEST
    I was out walking with my 4 year old daughter. She picked up
    something off the
    ground and started to put it in her mouth. I took the item away from her and I
    asked her not to do that.
    "Why?" my daughter asked.
    "Because it's been laying outside, you don't know where it's been,
    it's dirty
    and probably has germs" I replied.
    At this point, my daughter looked at me with total admiration and
    asked, "Wow!
    How do you know all this stuff?"
    "Uh," ...I was thinking quickly, "All moms know this stuff. It's on
    the Mommy Test. You have to know it, or they don't let you be a Mommy."
    We walked along in silence for 2 or 3 minutes, but she was evidently
    pondering this new information.
    "OH...I get it!" she beamed, "So if you don't pass the test you have
    to be the daddy."
    "Exactly" I replied back with a big smile on my face and joy in my
    heart. When you're finished laughing, send this to a Mom.
    
    "Dear Lord," the preacher began with arms extended and a rapturous look on his upturned face, "without you we are but dust..." He would have continued, but at that moment one very obedient little girl (who was listening carefully) leaned over to her mother and asked quite audibly in her shrill little girl voice, "Mommy, WHAT is butt dust?" Church was pretty much over at that point...

Cupofkindness,

Thanks for a good laugh!

cupofkindness, thanks for pointing out that nursing isn't the only way to bond with your child.

I did manage to nurse in a sense. I didn't successfully get my first son to nurse no matter how I tried and how many lactation consultants I worked with, he just wouldn't do it. So I pumped for 5 months and had 1 extra month on reserve, so he at least got breast milk. I weaned my second son after 4 months with 1 extra month of milk. I am for nursning. I really don't think they are less bonded to me for having short nursing times.

Do you think an adopting mom could never be as bonded to her child as a nursing bilogical mom? I don't think that it true. I feel as though children love their parents for the wonderful things the remember them doing for them.

OK, so sort of back on topic - why would children abandon their elderly parents? This is so upsetting to me. I wonder why it happens? Do they just get caught up in their own family's lives? Were the elderly people of a generation that didn't know how to parent and are now suffering as a consequence? I would really like to explore this. I can't fathom doing that to my parents, so I am curious as to why others can.

lilathabit - "why would children abandon their elderly parents?" Now that is an interesting topic, and you have asked some good questions about it. Why don't you start a new thread on it, since this one is getting so long? I would be so interested in that discussion.

Talk about ambivalence!

"Did they tell you that you are now in a higher risk category

for developing breast cancer?" and "I cant help if your reading comprehension is lacking. "Suggesting (incorrectly) that

breastfeeding could increase your risk of cancer..", I never said any thing close to that."

Nah, it's just too easy.

mgmsrk - I don't know if you have children or not (you haven't said) but you really need to educate yourself here. Did you even read your own links?! I don't think you did. You are also starting to lean towards insults as well which is totally uncalled for, particularly in your words towards Sue, calling her an idiot. What have you contributed to this thread besides to tear apart what others have said?

No, it is not a "Golden Pill," but it is definitely a consideration and a way (just one way) to lower your risk factor in the most common form of estrogen-induced cancer. It was definitely something *I* considered when I decided if and when to have children. I was told it was best to have my first before 30, so I did. I was told it was best to breastfeed as long as possible, so I did. I cannot guarantee that I will never get cancer (my ordeal last summer was proof of that), but at least I know that I did the best I could. BTW I also eat healthy, am a lacto-ovo vegetarian, shop and cook organic whenever possible, don't eat fast food, drink only water or milk, exercise, see the dr and dentist regularly, etc etc etc. I do the best I can at what has been proven to help me live a longer and healthier life.

How the Canadian vs US healthcare system came into this conversation I don't know either. I responded to the original post based on the assumption that she had access to healthcare because she didn't say otherwise. I doubt she'd be even remotely considering it if she didn't. You really need to read up on programs like MediCal and Healthy Children as well - in most states, government programs take over when a family doesn't have insurance. For those that aren't poor enough to qualify for those, companies like Kaiser offer tiered income plans - such as $8 per kid. My husband was unemployed for a month over the summer and we looked into all of the available programs. We have employer-paid coverage now. Canadians have such a miscontrued view of what health care is like here, and besides, didn't I read just last week that Canada is starting up a privatized system? Maybe I'm wrong. But either way, it has nothing to do with the original post. What is your recommendation? Will she regret having kids? Do you have anything useful to say?

mgmsrk-

I think it is pretty amusing that you would insult me and the people I know when you are not even bright to take care of your own health, waiting months and months for a necessary procedure. In fact, if you are a mother, you must be a bad one because you choose to live somewhere with such a crappy health care system. Don't you know you are not doing what is best for your child, living in such a third world country where someone needs to wait months for basic care? "You are lacking the intelligence, moral character and spine to be responsible for anything more complicated than a bowl of Sea Monkeys." Sounds like it would fit you. You should cross the border and get that MRI. Last time I needed one the waiting list was about 4 hours.

Snookums,

I appreciate you coming to my defense. But time will show mgmsrk her own reward. She will be one of those mothers whose children abandon her (per the other thread) - because she is a self righteous, overbearing witch.

I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaay late to this. (Stupid iVillage. I don't know who anyone is anymore b/c of the name change thing, can't log-in half the time, and my computer keeps freezing up when I'm here!)

First, Hollybolly: Hang in there girl. I'm praying for you too. Your post completely moved me, and helped me re-prioritize my life.

Second, this was posted above:

I still have yet to hear from someone, ANYONE, that having children makes your marriage better.

Can I be the first? See for me and DH, it actually helped. We were both only children, and were therefore extremely "spoiled" about our time. To be blunt (and this only applies to us, not to all only-children) we were VERY selfish and self-centered. Very. Selfish with our time, our patience levels, our thoughts, our stuff, etc. Having kids literally drove the selfishness out. We learned how to put others' needs first. We learned to prioritize our time. Our marriage didn't suffer, because we held/hold onto a bit of "selfishness" concerning our time together. There are kid-free times that we enforce, just because we need to feed "us". But having kids completely helped us as people, and completely helped our marriage. Learning to sacrifice and put someone elses needs first is a lesson we had just not been taught. (Oh in theory, perhaps, but not in actuality.)

Sometimes we still look at each other and laugh about how we watched ourselves change with the addition of each (3 total) child. For us, the sacrifices we had to make to be good parents crossed over into making our relationship MUCH stronger.

Reno, I also want to add that I can imagine that not having children will make it so much easier for many couples to just give up. I'd bet that the divorce rate is much higher among couples without children versus couples with children. I think that those who have kids are much more likely to try and work things out. They have more reasons to do so.

Holly--I am so sorry to hear this. I looked at your member page and remember your house so well. You are in my prayers.May I ask what type of cancer it is? Please keep in touch here and let us be your sounding board.

All-- Funny how this turned into a breastfeeding thread, but very interesting.

I breastfed my first baby for one year. I wasn't working and we had no money. It was wonderful and I couldn't imagine anyone not breastfeeding. Used those nasty cloth diapers too. I was not crunchy, just broke.

My second child--I had to go back to work as an RN on a busy medical-surgical floor. I tried to pump, but I barely got a break to go pee during the day, let alone pump. With breast milk soaking the front of my pretty white uniform (yes, we actually wore uniforms back then) I weaned her at 8 weeks. She did fine.

My third and fourth (twins)--delivered via c-section at age 44 with a hemoglobin of 7.2 and debilitated from 3 mo of bedrest. No milk--period--ever-- despite pumping like crazy for days. My boys did fine, although formula feeding did create a lot more work for dh.

Unfortunatley, despite what lots of people believe--sometimes it just doesn't work. That's why God created formula ;-)

Reno fan, Blsdgal and everyone else,

Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. While I'm not particularly religious; I have become a believer in the power of prayer. Also I've been touched and surprised by both my virtual and real communities. People, even virtual strangers, have gone out of their way to help me and my family. Today for instance, a woman I barely know beyond the fact that our second graders are in class together, organized a terrific birthday party for my son. She booked the gym, made the "goody bags", ordered the cake etc. My husband and I have been meaning to get to it but... As my son said, it was the best party ever!!!! I can't believe that she spent all that thought and effort just to keep things normal for one little boy!

Blsdgal - I have adenocarcinoma of unknown primary origin or what I call "mystery cancer". Basically it is a cancer that has spread (in my case to liver and lungs) but it is not known from where since there is no sign of the original cancer. Again in my case it may have started in the colon, pancreas, stomach or ovaries. I get a "chemo cocktail" of 3 drugs for each of these possibilities.

BTW; there are no known risk factors for this type of cancer. I have had genetic testing and it was negative for known mutations. I never smoked, drank, did drugs etc. Have always had a priveleged life with access to excellent health care, healthy environment etc. I did breastfeed 3 kids although I had them fairly late in life (34 for first). Sometimes bad things just happen... so I'm not sure that reducing cancer risk should figure in the decision to have children. I would hate to think that my children failed to keep me healthy!

Just for the record, adoptive mothers CAN nurse! It's challenging, but can be done, with or without a full milk supply.

Mothering is so much more than milk.

But as for milk, there is no reason milk banks can't flow as freely as blood banks. Some day all our children may begin life on human milk. It takes a village.

Which is why some of us reach out here, and elsewhere.

As to the original question, aren't we more likely to regret the WAY we took a path, rather than the path itself?

"...I can imagine that not having children will make it so much easier for many couples to just give up."

Snookums, I can't say for others, but in my case, I believe you're right. I'm on marriage #3. No kids with the first two. In those days, I never thought in terms of "forever". In my second marriage, we even joked about it being a 5-year renewable contract. (Sadly, after two terms, we decided not to renew.)

With DH and I (with one son), we talk about "forever and then some". Even our wedding bands are engraved in Latin, "Not even death will part us."

With a child, everything changes that way.

>>But time will show mgmsrk her own reward. She will be one of those mothers whose children abandon her (per the other thread) - because she is a self righteous, overbearing witch.THAT is a really, really nasty and hateful thing to say and you should not wish that on anyone, under ANY circumstances.
As to the other thread...I've seen wonderful mothers left to fend for themselves and not so, wonderful, mothers taken care of.
Be kind, people...It doesn't bode well for people that say "you reap what you sow" to, then, expect kindness when their turn comes. And hey, my feeling is that even though some people may not have been kind it doesn't ever hurt you/us to treat them with kindness.. you don't even have to do it for them...do it for yourself.. you'll feel good about yourself.
As for ANYONE who has ever worked at a nursing home who boastfully states that some residents/parents deserve to be abandoned?.. well, IMO, that person doesn't have any place, at all, working there. They are burnt out... and as such, should leave the profession (And I use that word, loosely in their case). These people are not flipping hamburgers, are not crunching numbers, not sitting behind a desk, etc... they are dealing with humans.. real people...very, vulnerable and sometimes, helpless people and THAT kind of attitude can kill people. It has no place in a medical setting, period.

Silly

oh spacific, I LOVE what you all engraved on your wedding bands. Our wedding bands are custom made, something I dreamed--they're like water flowing around our fingers, like us being part of the perpetual flow of nature...

And I think having our daughter has *now* made our marriage deeper and better than it had been...but it took time. The birth and first year were *extremely* stressful, with no family support, and it took its toll on our relationship, but we're back in a deeper, more tested-through-fire way, if folks can imagine what I mean. It's so much More than I'd ever thought it could have been when we first got married or were traipsing through life as two successful professionals with cats :)

"I can imagine that not having children will make it so much easier for many couples to just give up. I'd bet that the divorce rate is much higher among couples without children versus couples with children. I think that those who have kids are much more likely to try and work things out. They have more reasons to do so."

Interesting theory, but I'm betting the statistics will show that the divorce rate is just as high for couples with kids. Don't know, and would be interested to find out.

In my case, 1st hubby was psychologically abusive, and for 10 years, I put up with it. (I got enough emotional support from my girlfriends and validation from my work that I was able to function without any support from him.) But after we had a child, his sick games started to hurt someone else - our son. And our son was growing up watching the cruel and twisted way he treated me. The minute I realized what our son was seeing, and that our son would think this was normal and appropriate -- that was the instant I knew I needed to divorce him. Not for myself, but for my son. For me, my son was the reason to leave, not the reason to stay.

Sweeby: Would you be willing to share with me how it is that you decided to have a child with someone who was abusive in any way? I am very curious to understand the rationale/psyche behind a decision like this in these circumstances. Thank you....

Though I cannot speak for Sweeby, I might address this question posed by Hsorrentino by saying that the fundamental wish, which some might view as an a deep seated desire not unlike an instinct, which others might view as a decision, to create your very own family can be so strong that you are even willing to accept a certain level of risk or insecurity to do so. Even a child born in an ideal setting would find his parents experiencing certain degrees of anxiety and even fear surrounding the changes that a baby sets in motion, both for the parents individually and as a couple.

I would add that often people don't recognize emotional abuse until some precipitating event occurs. In this case, without speaking for her, I think Sweeby alluded to the fact that seeing it through her son's eyes made her understand how harmful it was.

Hsorrentino, maybe you didn't mean it, but I do sense a judgment in your question for Sweeby. I don't know how she feels about answering a question such as yours, but I can tell you that there is a great deal of literature on this topic. Much of it is on the Internet. Just do a google search and you'll find all kinds of information that might help you with your understanding.

The website below has links to much more on the subject.

That's a fair question Hsorrentino. I think the bottom line is that I didn't realize what he was doing actually "qualified" as abuse until I got into counseling. He never hit me, didn't drink excessively, didn't even call me horrible names -- it was much more subtle. Even though he was hyper-critical and contemptuous, he always had ways of rationalizing everything -- and there was always at least a grain of truth to his side that could be magnified and twisted and exploited. And psychological abuse is very subtle at first, very insidious. Ask any woman who has experienced abuse of any type, and you'll hear some version of the same old story...

I knew we didn't have the best marriage, but I had made up my mind that it was something I could live with. And as Cup pointed out, I really wanted a baby, and the timing was right for a number of reasons.

The marriage died for me the day our 10-month old son slapped me playfully in the face. Of course he didn't know any better, so I corrected him gently, saying "Nice hands. Don't hit." But then EvilEx decided it was fun, so he laughed and whispered playfully "Hit Mommy!" to the baby. Baby laughs and hits me again. I correct Baby again and explain briefly to Ex why it wasn't a good idea for him to encourage that type of play. No luck. "Hit Mommy!" - Slap - explain. Repeat. He would never acknowledge that encouraging the baby to hit me wasn't good parenting. There were a few other instances along similar lines, but that one got through to me.

I apologize if anyone was viewing my curiousity as being judgemental. Not my intention whatsoever. Sweeby, thank you for the explaination and being so open....My preference with topics such as this is to get insight from those around me...family, friends, co-workers as opposed to doing research on the net. I actually feel a sense of "community" on this board and was simply hoping for some open honest communication. Thank you...

Flyleft, glad you like the saying. When we were having it translated, I consulted with friends of my sister's... a couple of monks. There were endless nights of discussion as to the correct version (and as my Latin knowledge consists of helping my big brother study for Latin I class in high school, I was no help). But the monks were very clear to point out that in their view, we had no jurisdiction as to what happened in the afterlife... but I digress...

Sweeby, I admit I had the same question that hsorrentino had. Thank you for shedding some light. Perhaps a revision of my response... If you already have a strong marriage, I think having a child/children can add another lasting, incredible dimension. On the down side, all the stresses, issues, problems, weaknesses of a marriage will really come through... In our case it continues to make us stronger. In a rough marriage, I can easily see how the opposite would happen.

Perhaps that's it... Children magnify life. Whatever's good seems amazing... whatever's bad becomes intolerable. Just a rambling thought after two glasses of wine....

I didn't take any offense -- Seriously, it was a question I've asked myself many times! ;-) And the judgement I passed on myself (then forgave myself for - not to worry) was much more stringent.

For anyone who suspects this discussion might be a little too close to home -- listen up! and pay attention to that nagging little voice that suspects you may deserve better. Better is out there! Even if you think he's "got a point" (there was always a grain of truth in my ex's abuse) -- If he makes you feel bad about yourself, you're probably better off without him.

Spacific - That's a great point about children magnifying life -- I think that's exactly what they do. And easily some of the sweetest moments in my life have been the time I spend with DH (#2) and our kids together. I think of them as "golden moments" -- those little moments in time when everything is just perfect.

Spacific:

I love how you phrased that as well. Children do magnify life. Thank you.

Sweeby, what a haunting story you tell about your ex when your son was 10 months. So glad you were able to move away from that, so glad for your son as well. I cannot fathom another human being encouraging a child to strike his mother in play, such a painful story. And one I could not have understood before I was a mother myself.

Are things okay now parenting with the ex? Or is this too much to ask? I'm so glad to know your son is free from that old relationship, now severed.

Your son is lucky to have you, and the person you are for breaking away from pain for him.

Wow, how this thread progressed! I posted at the very beginning and read a few of the following posts but just came back to it now.

I have to say that I find some of the rationalizations for having children to be disturbing.

-- Have children so you won't get cancer?
-- Have children so you'll have someone to take care of you when you get old?

OY!

Nope. Those are NOT reasons to have kids. The reason to have kids is because you want them, your SO wants them, and you are prepared to face the changes and challenges that will be a part of your life for the rest of your life.

So many of us have stated how children changed our lives for the better and how we could never go back knowing now what we didn't know then (me among them). But again, I'll say vehemently that I don't believe this to be the whole story. There are lots of parents who regret having kids. Including many who wanted kids and planned for them etc. There are no easy answers.

There's no way to know what will happen if you DO have kids or if you DON'T. And you'll never be able to look back and see how your life would have been different if you had taken the opposite road. So you just have to make the decision based on how you feel now. And if you choose to have kids later or adopt or foster or whatever, you'll make that decision at that point in your life.

But that decision should never be based on some pie in the sky vision of rosy cheeked kids saving you from cancer or taking care of you when you're old or any kind of non-guaranteed possible benefit to you. The only benefit to you that should be considered is that you believe that your life will be enriched by the presence of children in your life. Period.

I didn't say this before, but I wish all the best to the OP in your marriage and your life!

I also send my very best to hollybolly as you face this extreme difficulty in your life. I wish very much that you will post news of remission very soon. Know that our thoughts are with you.

The last time I was here this had shifted into breast feeding - it's now taken a whole new twist. I couldn't trace where the thought that couples without kids might be more prone to divorce as they don't have as much reason to work things out. Just wanted to report that is not the case for me - no kids - very happily married for almost 28 years and it gets better all the time!!

A word of warning to original poster, no matter what you decide, in general your conversations with people will evolve into those about being a parent, lol!

No offense intended at all... I experience this all the time IRL(as a non parent) and it amuses me that it happened on this thread! :)

lpolk, but the question was about parenting!

It is true that before I was a parent, I found myself in the midst of conversations about parenting & didn't care for it much beyond the first 15 minutes or so since I didn't share the experience. For some reason this bugged me more than finding myself in the middle of other conversations that didn't include me: spouse's shop talk, local politics when I'm out of town, hobbies I don't get, etc. Something about parenting, particularly among women, becomes "socially political."

I must admit to watching this thread grow over the weeks and not reading it...and even though I'm posting, I still haven't read it. I'm taking a stab in the dark and guessing that there is a lot of controversy and debate over the original question.

I grew up believing that I should have a fabulous marriage, beautiful successful children and a fulfilling life. Turning 40 this summer and not having children or a marriage has led me to do a lot of reflecting.

I am not married by choice and I am childless by choice.

I don't regret my decision in least. I am, however, very very happy and satisfied with my life as it is. I think that if I were unhappy, it would be very easy to say that I regretted not having children or blame my unhappiness on old decisions. The fact of the matter is I am just shy of 40, childless and I don't regret it.

Does that mean you won't? No, it simply means that there are those of us that are childless and are truly happy.

Children are precious and should only be brought into this world with a lot of thought...no matter what you decide, I'm glad to see that there are still folks out there who truly think over this decision rather than letting it happen.

~ Elizabeth

Well, I feel I was misquoted and misinterpreted about my comments about end of life issues and who will "take care of you" if there are no children. I NEVER said that was a reason to have kids. Only that you have to think about how those issues will be handled if you have no kids.

Perhaps there are some elderly posters, say 80 yrs old and up, who have no children and have worked out care issues who will share with us how well its working for them?

Sweeby - Thanks for sharing your story. Your son is lucky that you could remove him and yourself from a dangerous person. I have researched this type of mean hearted people and you have said it correctly, they are insidious and they spin a web of confusion injected with enough bits of truth to snow outsiders. This is a very bad situation. If your son is alive and healthy today he has you to thank. I know of people whose fate was not so rosy. God bless you. (didn;t mean to "threadjack")

As for the child issue, I do agree that children are wonderful, cute cuddly and stressful at times, I have three and want to pull my hair out occasionally. To the OP only you can truly know whether children are right for you. My only plea to all is to take the decision seriously, as a parent you are entrusted with the souls of little innocent beings, you have a duty to mould them into strong human being.

It is way more about what you do for them than what they can do for you. Although they can be pretty darn cute!

Athome and Dulcinea - Well, I got away, anyway. But EvilEx had remained a presence in our son's life, much to my discomfort. I've tried to walk the very fine line of supporting DS's relationship with his father and not badmouthing him, while also imparting my own values and standards, and shedding a little perspective on some of Ex's behaviors.

At the moment anyway, things appear to be going fairly well. DS has a good relationship with all of his parents (2 steps also), and he knows none of us is perfect. He knows right from wrong according to my stricter standards, but understands far better than most that there are many, many shades of gray in between. He manages to live just within the two very different sets of rules he has at each household, and is going to have an interesting time later on deciding which path to follow.

lnersesian:

How are things going? What's your view on the wide array of topics addressed on this thread?

Hey Cup, and everyone else...well, this has definitely been an eye opening thread! But we are still totally undecided. Which is not such a bad thing, of course, especially since we are not in a rush. The one thing I do realize is that there is no right or wrong answer...I guess whatever we decide will take us down a path in life that will hopefully be wonderful...

Ironically, we were at SO's sister's house on Sunday...she has four kids...they are all super hyper and not very well behaved...and I have to say, we are not big fans of her and her husband's parenting skills. Every time I might think I want kids and we go there, I walk out saying NO WAY! I do know that if they were raised differently, they would act differently, but it is still such an eye opening experience! And of course, no one is perfect, so I am definitely not saying that I would be super parent...

I am glad to see though that everyone who responded on this thread is for, the most part, really happy with their decision, whatever it may be. It is nice to see that no matter what we decide, chances are it will be a good choice!

lnersesian:

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. And I would agree that seeing poor parenting skills in action can discourage anyone from having children. Children need discipline, and I'm not talking about spanking but true discipline which is the habit of training a child how to behave well no matter where they are or who the children are with. It doesn't dawn on some people that they should expect their children live up to a certain standard of obedience and respect. It is demanding work but it pays off in having children that you love to be around as the years go by. In any case, God bless you and your SO as you make this life-changing decision together.

I am one of those older mom's that said "My kid will never do that!" when I saw kid's acting up in public. Boy, have I had to eat my words!! I feel I am pretty good at parenting, I am a SAHM and spend quite a bit of time trying to make a decent human being out of my DS, but he has had his moments, like most normal kids.

Before I had DS, I would look at my sister's kids and think they were out of hand sometimes. But now that we have DS, I admire the way they have handled things, because I now now how hard it is. I guess I just thought kids should ALWAYS be well-behaved and that was that-LOL!

I just wanted to add that I admire your sister having 4 kids and it still SANE-LOL! My sister has 3 kids pretty close in age and although they are really well-behaved most of the time-they are kids and are much louder than I like-but, I only have the one, and boy, are we sometimes glad to go back to our quiet house with just the 3 of us! And I can tell my DS needs to get away from the caos also, since he is not used to all the commotion.

I said all that to say, if you do decide to have little kiddies, maybe one DS or DD is the answer-much easier in my opinion (except for the lack of sleep I'v had to endure).

The poster - mary I think -who brought up the old age factor? I have 3 living children. The one thing I don't want to do is burden my children. Most decisions will be taken care of long before (hopefully) we need them. And although I'm sure that my children would help me if they could, maybe they won't be in the position to help? They might not outlive me. There are no guarantees. For years my MIL was in assisted living, some of the people living there used to break my heart because their kids never visited. Those who didn't have children seemed happiest.

Not to hijack--but speaking of older mothers, did anyone hear on the news that a 62 yr old woman recently gave birth to her 12th child? She looked every bit of 62 and I doubt that it was through extraordinary means by the sound of her situation.

Am I hallucinating or did anyone else see this on the news?

And I thought I was old getting pg in my 40s ;-)

Egads! A baby at 62? That is nothing short of a miracle!