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TerraSource Geothermal DIY Nightmare

ctgeothermal
15 years ago

Please don't make the same mistake we did and buy a system from TerraSource aka www.geothermaldiy.com !!!!!! We had turnkey systems priced anywhere from $35-45K, which was out of our budget. We bought a system from TerraSource for $18K and paid approx $12K for the excavation and ductwork. It was a split system w/ a 3 ton unit in the attic and a 4 ton unit in the basement (Similar to the $45K system we priced if it worked). We did a reasonable amount of research online. We dealt directly with the owner of the company, Nick Reubel, who handled the design of our system based on plans we sent w/ heat loss calculations done. The system was shipped and the install went flawlessly. The first issue was that we never got more than 6 gpm flow to the 4 ton unit and 4 gpm flow to the 3 ton unit, which is barely enough to keep them running, forget about efficiency. Nick repeatedly informed me that the system was designed for a minimum of 12 gpm flow, but we should be getting 20 gpm on average. Next, the attic heat pump compressor began tripping off and the electric strips were running continuously. This led to $1000+ electric bills. I also noticed the well pump running continuously. I then figured out that TerraSource had designed "Make up Water" into their system, so you can't tell when there is a leak. I began troubleshooting w/ Nick Reubel on the phone and discovered that 1 of 8 loops was leaking. (Strange because I had air tested each loop after backfilling the trenches and all 8 loops held 40 psi air pressure). Nick sent me a crazy DIY pump contraption, a new loop that I would have to figure out how to bury, and a 20 gallon tub of highly flammable antifreeze (no MSDS) and the shipping company had no idea what was in the package. I put the new loop on my basement floor and added antifreeze back into the system and then received a bill from TerraSource for this equipment and was told I had to ship the pump contraption back at my expense?? Not even three weeks later my attic pump froze again and sure enough 2 more loops were leaking?? This is when I questioned Mr. Reubel about the merits of his system, he became very arguable and I have not been able to reach him since. He has even changed cell phone numbers. He even refused to respond to the Ohio Attorney General (TerraSource is located in Batavia, OH). The system barely limped along on 5 loops and to my dismay, we lost 3 more loops over the next 5 months!!! Here we are in December in CT with 2 babies and a system operating on 2 loops that only work when the temperature is above 40 outside. The rest of the time we're running on the electric strips that probably grey out half the neighborhood when they kick on. We sent a final desperate request to TerraSource 3 weeks ago with no answer back. We are going to have 3 wells drilled next week at a cost of $25K plus interior pump packs and purging and plumbing at a cost of $6K, so the DIY "deal" didn't really pan out. In hind sight, probably should have done more research, but this company is still operating from the premise that they can save you big money on a geothermal system. Here's what we have found out: The pipe that we buried is some type of pex piping. It is 3/4" outside diameter. We have 8 750' slinky loops. Based on friction loss, there's no way we could ever get 20gpm as promised. There was also no account for the head pressure going up to the attic heat pump, thus lowering flow even more. We have also discovered that this pipe is not approved for use in geothermal systems in CT. Every company that has come to give quotes agrees that it is the substandard pipe that has failed in the field. These loops are continuous, there are no welds in the field at all! We have had to refinance our house (at a worse rate than we had previously) in order to finance this fix... By not responding to us or the OH Atty Gen TerraSource has basically refused to take back their faulty system and refund any money to compensate us for our trouble. I have bought many products that ended up breaking and any reputable company has taken them back with no questions asked. TerraSource doesn't even have the decency to hear our complaint. Please don't make the same mistake we did by doing business with this company. Our only course of action now is litigation and as many internet posts as we can make. Stay away from www.geothermaldiy.com !!!!

Comments (24)

  • fsq4cw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry to hear of your plight but I think youre heading off in the wrong direction again!

    3-boreholes is NOT the most efficient way to design a ground heat exchanger for a 7-ton system!!! (BTW: What diameter pipe are they planning to use? Parallel or series configuration; how deep? )

    Assuming your load calcs and ductwork are properly designed, I would drill 1-borehole per ton, use 3/4in HDPE pipe in a parallel configuration connected to properly designed headers with 2-separate geoexchange systems, one for each HP.

    If that didnÂt work, you would be forced to abandon your HPs and go with brands like ClimateMaster, WaterFurnace or Nordic.

    IMPO

    SR

  • ctgeothermal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have waterfurnace heat pumps (versatec). The company we went with has very good references and does systems all over CT. Their design calls for 3 wells each 350' deep. They are using 1-1/2 inch pipe. Let me know if this still sounds wrong, but it is similar to a design I got from another company.

  • fsq4cw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The WaterFurnace HPs are good. The design of the GHX will work - if properly installed but understand that that design is for THEIR (the installers) benefit not yours. Proper design for highest efficiency mandates 1-borehole per ton, so youd need 7-boreholes, each drilled to the depth of 150ft/ton minimum (what they are proposing to do now anyways, just deeper).

    So whats the difference?

    For you, if designed properly greater efficiency over the entire life of the borefield (literally hundreds of years)! Less fluid, less antifreeze, smaller diameter ground loops, parallel configuration - less pumping power required.

    For the driller/installer, doing it his way, less time and hassle spent on-site (drilling, grouting, excavating), series connection (less efficient), larger diameter pipe (who cares youre paying), more fluid (ditto), more pumping power, maybe larger pumps (ditto, youre paying). The biggest deal for the contractor less excavating!! A properly designed borefield of 1-loop/ton means 15~16ft separation of boreholes (minimum) with the closest borehole no closer than 25ft from the envelope foundation. Thats a lot of excavating and mess!

    Exceptions would be if you did not have the room for 7-boreholes and you absolutely want a liquid to air GSHP, or were talking about a commercial installation.

    Bottom line is that what your installer is planning will work, but its in his best interest not yours and that youll never achieve maximum efficiency. Geothermal design is all about maximizing efficiency.

    BTW: You just got a free consultation. My clients pay dearly for this information - and consider it a bargain!

    IMPO

    SR

  • ctgeothermal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for all the info, it's appreciated. I actually discussed the well config w/ the contractor. Our issue is that our drinking well req'd 130' of casing. The well driller is going to try to remove the casing on each well, but can't guarantee that it will come out. So right now we're looking at 3 X 130' X $14 per foot over $4000 in casing potentially. If I did 7 wells it would break the budget for sure. It's definitely a compromise, but anything is more efficient than electric strips, which are running right now, because the temp is back down low tonight. I'll let you know how it goes. My well driller has put me off a week, because he was drilling a system for the "Extreme Home Makeover" show in Norwich, CT, so hopefully they'll show up w/ the rig on Monday!

  • fsq4cw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good luck, thats a lot of casing to try and remove. It requires a drill rig with tremendous torque to twist that much 6in casing out of the ground! Let us know how it goes. I sincerely hope that this will be the end of your troubles and financial hemorrhaging.

    SR

  • ctgeothermal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The driller gives me an 80% chance of getting the casing out, but I obviously can't count on this for the budget. I actually didn't know they could remove casing, since none of the other companies even mentioned this as an option. The company I went with is very reputable and it is to their credit that they even brought up the possibility of removing the casing, since it's more work for them and less profit. I have my fingers crossed.

  • funnycide
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    SR-
    I don't really agree with your statements about (7) 150' wells being better. I would design a 7 ton system with (3) 350' wells.

    here are your statements about 150' deep wells:
    Less fluid, less antifreeze: probably true but the cost is really minor
    smaller diameter ground loops:the piping down the well would be smaller but the horizontal piping would be more or less the same
    parallel configuration - less pumping power required: you can have parallel configuration with 2 wells or 7 wells so I don't see why that makes a difference

    For the driller/installer, doing it his way, less time and hassle spent on-site (drilling, grouting, excavating):that's true and that means lower cost to the homeowner
    larger diameter pipe: probably true but the cost difference is minor

    more pumping power, maybe larger pumps: this is where there might be a difference but I would say it would be minor. You're running more horizontal pipe with 150' wells so that has to be accounted for.
    The biggest deal for the contractor less excavating!! A properly designed borefield of 1-loop/ton means 15~16ft separation of boreholes (minimum) with the closest borehole no closer than 25ft from the envelope foundation. Thats a lot of excavating and mess: This is true and this also means more cost to the homeowner. I never heard a minimum distance quoted to the foundation. What is your reason for this.

    I am all for minimizing pump power but you are focusing on the wrong thing. To minimize pump power you can upsize the piping. This could be done with any configuration of ground loop. There will be a increased material cost that may or may not pay for itself over the life of the system.

  • ctgeothermal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Coolmen...I've been in the military as a search and rescue pilot for 18 years. I've pretty much seen anything you can imagine. My wife told me she didn't want oil heat and the town we live in has no natural gas. I therefore commenced a quest to find a good alternative and geothermal was the answer. It was, however, out of the budget. Since risk is generally a part of my life every day, I decided to try this out on my own and learned a few things. I posted this message for others who might consider using this company in the future, not for someone to try to re-emphasize the lesson I've already learned. My wife and kids still think I'm their hero in spite of my failed attempt at becoming a geothermal contractor. I've been out in a hurricane and looked down on a poor soul in a tiny boat and wondered what the %$*@ they were thinking being out in a storm in a tiny boat. But when I met them after their rescue I didn't scoff at their ignorance, I just congratulated their good fortune. No need for further reply, I appreciate your support.

  • fsq4cw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Re: funnycide

    I basically agree with your analysis and certainly respect your opinions and have stated the design will in fact work. Canada, through the Canadian GeoExchange Coalition, states that Best Practices, for highest efficiency in residential installations are achieved through 1-loop per ton, parallel configuration, with reverse return headers.

    You may or may not agree, but the thinking is that with smaller diameter HDPE (3/4in) and less fluid, less power would be required to maintain the minimum required Reynolds number to ensure proper turbulent flow. Less fluid also means less antifreeze, which also means less risk to the environment (I know, splitting hairs but none-the-less true).

    Regarding the minimum distance of 25-feet from the foundation for drilling, thats another measure used by many responsible drillers to minimize the risk to foundations - particularly when using a down-hole air hammer.

    BTW: How did you get your handle?

    SR

  • jboylegreen
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I used Nick and his system - and everything seems to be working fine. We have been in the house 2 years and haven't used the strip heat at all.

    Our house is 5800 square feet and we have 4 tons down and 1.5 tons up. I think we have the same amount of loop lines even though the diff tonnage.

    How are you measuring gpm?

  • ctgeothermal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    He provided me with inline mechanical flow meters (ball and spring) and flow restrictors. It's funny because he actually told me I would have to restrict flow to the units. You're extremely lucky to have a functioning system. Of the 6 companies that bid on fixing our system they all said the 3/4 inch piping that terrasource provided is no good for burying in a geothermal application. If you are in CT, your system is not up to code with that pipe (If you have the same green pipe I have). Good luck on your system.

  • ctgeothermal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Two wells done, one to go! Casing has come out of both wells like butter! Saved me $3000 already in casing that I didn't have to buy. LaFramboise Well Drilling rocks. System should be up and running on Christmas Eve.

  • sniffdog
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great news! I hope it all works out.

  • fsq4cw
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What kind of rig did they use to extract the casing; how many feet?

    SR

  • ctgeothermal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not sure exactly what size, but it was a lot bigger than the rig that did my drinking well. They used the winch and pulled it right out. It was 100' of casing. They used the same 100' of casing for all 3 wells. I'll ask what size rig tomorrow. Merry Christmas.

  • logcastle
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What ever happened with Nick at TerraSource?

  • ctgeothermal
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nick has not responded to any of my complaints or the Ohio attorney general's office. I am currently shopping for lawyers. My system is up & running now with the 3 wells and new flow centers. I finally have sufficient flow for my heat pumps. Now I have time to properly pursue legal remedy from Terrasource.

  • park1_2000
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I too have a system from the Terrasource group, I have had alot of trouble as well. Send me an email so we can talk offline. My email is park1_2000@yahoo.com.. Thanks Edward

  • johnrod
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am currently working with Nick from TerraSource and he is great. You might want to contact him directly to solve your issues. I am sure he is willing to help. I listed his contact information below.

    TERRASource Geothermal Systems
    299 Haskel Lane
    Batavia, Ohio 45103
    Phone: 513-735-5500
    Toll-Free: 877-4-GEO-DIY (877-443-6349)

  • ejbowers
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The original post here obviously had a bad experience, but shouldn't deter anyone from considering terrasource as they are extremely viable and far better priced than the other companies I prospected.

    I hired terrasource in the spring of this year and they were nothing short of professional and intelligent in assessing my home's geothermal needs. These guys came in and left my place the same way they found it. In my opinion, they are reputable and should not be smeared by an obviously one-sided, disgruntled individual.

    Just look at the buzz words being used: "two freezing babies in a CT winter and a home refinance".

    Come on... Really? A little over-the-top if you ask me.

  • Rbuilder
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can you let me know how things have gone in your quest for satisfaction with Nick? He is trying to sell us on his services as I am a custom builder in his area and I am always looking to differentiate my homes from others. I was considering making geothermal a standard feature in my homes if I could justify the benefits. Please help me in my decision making process.

  • STEVEBERT_2112
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't know what the exact problem is here and how it got there. I do know that at one point or another if the customer threatens legal action or just won't agree that that the company has done what it should, that company or person is likely going to be advised by their lawyer to cease all contact with you and wait for your legal options to commence. At one point you may be considered an non satisfy-able customer. Again I am just passing on info I am not judging.
    I do feel I can pass judgement on Nick at Terrasource and can tell you that his cell number is the same as when he gave it to me in 2010, that he always returns my calls, that he always took time to help me during my install, a number of times I might add, and once when my water to water system stopped working, he helped me trouble shoot it over the phone, bad capacitor, bought a spare for $28 CAN and used it till he was able to send another, which he did under warranty.
    2 years my water to air stopped working. Again a phone call, left a message, got a call back within an hour or so, troubleshot the problem with me, again a bad capacitor, this time had a spare I could use from the previous time. He will be sending me another shortly.
    If I have to replace the $28 capacitor on each unit in 5 years to heat a 4500 sq ft home and an attached 1100 sq ft garage, add all our other hydro use-age to it and pay $4700/yr CAN total, well I'm pretty happy about that too. Yes that is in Canada where it's "COLD".
    What I would like to know is how this customer lost pressure in a line, and then in 2 or 3 more lines later on.
    To me this can only point at 2 things. One being a bad batch of pipe. This could be possible but highly unlikely.
    The pipe is rated for much more pressure than what is being used but let's say there was the odd million to one chance that a portion of pipe so poor was passed on to a customer that did have a leak, well that could be possible.
    But now to have 2 more leaks on other lines, well that just seems to point at the other possible cause of the problem.
    The customer, or the people they hired to install the loops, the excavator or both may have contributed to the pipe being damaged/kinked enough to greatly undermine the strength of the poly pipe. To avoid any mistakes, when we installed these loops ourselves, we took great pains to ensure that during backfill they would not get moved or damaged. Hint: lay the pipe, backfill 2' taking great care at the end loop, and lay the pipe going back. Then backfill the remainder. You're excavator might not like it but ensures the pipe is laid correctly. I can see how backfilling it all at once could crush the loops as well as move the pipe.
    I personally think that the one and only customer I know of that is complaining about this system did not make sure the loops were installed properly and ruined them.
    We have enjoyed the huge savings buying the DIY system, and also later in my utility costs, I also know that every inch of our system was done by us and not someone rushing or having their mind somewhere else or just not caring.
    And by the way, 3/4" line works perfectly for us and I like the fact that my manifold is not underground and welded.

  • HU-354418033
    last year

    The problem you will have is air permeating your pipes and smaller antifreezw modules escaping through the wall of the pipe, of course theres also the issue associated with the air eliminator fouling from buildup, the low density fluid in the pump lubrication and over spin, as well as the lack of cavitation or turbitity in the lines, among other things associated with the software the owner does not know about. it needs some rework, the design is over 17 years old and needs to be corrected and upgraded


    I only know because, I designed, built and patented the system the current owner has never worked the system further because he has no-one who can.


    it needs work, lets hope he figures it out

  • Gary Viper
    last year

    Run don't walk from Nick and his company.. The only thing that works is his mouth. However, if you are looking for a system that will break down constantly and provide you many years of pure hell, go for it. Having a geothermal system that breaks down constantly is not like conventional systems where you can find many other companies to repair problems. Even worse, when a geothermal system is improperly designed and installed it will cost thousands to correct permanently. Worse of all is the stress of when the next problem is going to arise and you are without heating or cooling. We went through 14 years of horrible stress due to a very badly designed system by Nick.