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Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Posted by newsoutherner (My Page) on
Wed, Dec 1, 10 at 13:13

My husband and I recently moved from the Midwest to Greenville, South Carolina and are in need of HVAC advice. We are looking at replacing our 20+ year-old heat pumps with something more efficient and reliable. We have a 2700 sq ft house, which includes a bonus room over an unheated garage. We've received quotes from 3 contractors and have narrowed it down (we think!) to either a Trane XL15i (with or without backup gas furnace), or an American Standard Heritage 16, with or without gas furnace. We also had a quote for the American Standard 15, but since it does not have a variable-speed fan motor, we ruled it out. The American Standard quote is for a 3-ton unit upstairs and a 2-ton unit downstairs. I don't know the "tonnage" of the Trane units, but the XL15i-24 was recommended for the downstairs, and a -30 recommended for the upstairs, if that is any clue. I have no idea from either quote what air handler or thermastat would be installed. Can anyone please tell me: 1) Is a backup gas furnace useful for this area? 2) What would be the best system for handling the summer humidity? 3) Are there other manufacturers we should be considering besides Trane and American Standard? 4) What other questions should I be asking these contractors? I feel so lost! Thanks for any help and insight you can provide this transplanted Midwesterner!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

welcome to the Piedmont/Upstate SC area. yes, heat pumps are an appropriate method of both heating and cooling homes for our climate including moderate winters.

first off, do you have air handlers for your heat pumps or backup gas furnaces?

if air handlers, what size backup heat strips? if you don't know, ask quoting dealers.

do you even have nat gas service to your home?

for information, Trane and American Standard are sister companies and their product line is quite similar and in some cases identical except for nameplate. and yes, both make quality heat pumps.

please verify sizing of existing heat pumps-post the mdl numbers.

it appears the Trane dealer has quoted a two ton XL15i system and a 2 1/2 ton XL15i system. The XL15i is the mdl number for the outside HP condenser. you might check quote to see what mdl air handler or furnace were quoted as well. The AmStd dealer has quoted their two stg Heritage 16 that only is vailable in full ton size-no 1/2 ton mdls.

post back with some answers and we'll go from there.

IMO


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

having the gas backup is nice for the extra cold days and when your heatpump goes into defrost but not terribly necessary since your in a southern climate. Electric backup would be fine too.

Do you currently have gas?

Is the house leaky or tighter? You might need the gas more if your house is leaky for those cold outdoor temps.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Thank you for your help. We do have air handlers, but I don't know what size backup strips. (Is that info posted somewhere on the equipment?) We don't currently have a gas furnace, but we do have a gas supply line (gas fireplace and water heater). The model numbers of our current Carrier units are 38QN024310 and 38QN030330.

As for our house being leaky, I think it is a little around the windows, but otherwise not too bad.

Again, thank you for your help!


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

I just went up in my attic and got the model number off what I think is the air handler. (Have you figured out yet that I'm completely mechanically clueless?! But I am trying to learn...) It's another Carrier product, model 40AQ030300BU. If I've given you the wrong info, let me know!


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

if it doesn't cost much extra go with the gas furnace with the heatpumps. If it costs alot extra keep the electrical resistance heat.

New heatpumps with demand defrost go into defrost mode less than ever. So your auxiliary isn't as important since it isn't running much. Ofcourse on extra cold days or during sleet and snow storms you will be using your auxiliary more - whether its gas or electric, probably won't happen too much.

Its 26 and breezy where I"m at and dark outside, and its a comfy 68 in my house. The heatpump last hour ran 37 minutes straight, cycled off 15, then started up again. Heatpumps can keep a place warm down to plenty cold temperatures.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

your outside condenser mdl numbers do suggest a two ton and a 2 1/2 ton system.

if they did the job, I would stick with those sizes.

these are my minimum specs for a new HP system. both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

I would only use authorized dealers for the various brands that provide quotes. see mfg websites.

I would look at Trane/AmStd,Rheem,Carrier/Bryant.

one suggestion, I would stick with the HP with air handler and backup heat strip for upstairs system. however for downstairs system, you might consider a HP with 80% VS gas furnace backup since you already have gas service to your home.

I see no reason for the AmStd Heritage 16. Drop back to the sgl stg Heritage 15 which is a comparable mdl to Trane's XL15i. Either properly sized and with correct thermostat/control will give you excellent humidity control in the summer mths.

IMO


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

neohioheatpump and tigerdunes,

Thank you both for your help. Here is a little more info to share... The gas furnaces we've been quoted (for downstairs only) are the American Standard Freedom 95 Comfort-R (with variable-speed motor and two-stage valve), and the Trane 95 XV95, also with variable-speed blower motor and "Comfort-R". The price for the American Standard Furnace was an additional $1600 and for the Trane, $3300. Why it would be double for the Trane when it looks to be essentially the same unit is beyond me. Am I missing something?

Regarding gas furnaces in general... Where we moved from, the temperature would frequently be at 0 degrees F or less in the winter. Yet, our home was definitely more comfortable than our home here in SC. Of course, we haven't had a properly working heat pump since we moved here, either. We are trying to figure out if a new heat pump alone would be sufficient, or if we would be more comfortable with gas heat. Would there be any problems with trying a heat pump alone and then adding the gas furnace at a later date if we felt it wasn't sufficient? Or would it be more cost-effective to install at same time? What would be a rough cost of an 80% efficient furnace vs a 95% efficient one?

With regard to the American Standard Heritage 15, does it matter that it doesn't have a variable speed motor? Am I correct in interpreting your statement that if I have the proper size and thermastat/control, that the variable speed doesn't matter? The thermastat quoted with the American Standard contractor was the Honeywell 6000 or 8000. Would either of those be appropriate?

I apologize for what are probably stupid questions. It's very hard to shop for something you know absolutely nothing about.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

first off, if you are being quoted HP condensers, then you absolutely do not need 95% eff furnaces for our area/winter climate. an 80% eff two stg var speed for downstairs is a worthy consideration. why do I say this? because Greenville winter climate has average lows around 40 degrees. now that's an average. yes, I know it was around 30 this morning and can go lower but that's not common and usually it's not for any length of time. for those real cold snaps, the furnace for downstairs would be nice.

you do however want a var speed blower for either an air handler or furnace.

Trane dealers unfortunately think very highly of the name and are normally higher than their sister company AmStandard.

Your question about the AmStd Heritage 15 shows you are a little confused. The outside condenser is not var speed but will require either a var speed air handler or var speed furnace to reach its efficiency capability.

for thermostats, you at least need Honeywell's VP 8321 mdl with humidity sensor whether gas furnace/AC, gas furnace/HP, HP with air handler.

I am not going to comment on pricing other than what I said above. Prices can vary between dealers, brands, and competitive forces at work within a market area.

I personally would ask AmStd dealer for cost difference between AmStd Freedom Comfort R two stg var speed 95% eff vs the 80% eff var speed mdl. Again, I like the idea of the 80% with HP for downstairs. If you do elect the 95% furnace for downstairs, then no need for HP, just the comparable AC mdl.

sorry, I know this can be confusing and frustrating.

IMO


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

you will be comfy with heatpump heat. If its working right is does fine. Make sure you have a nice thermostat that doesn't 'cycle on and off'.

A good thermostat can control the number of cycles per hour. I prefer the minimum - 1.

Keep in mind, with heatpumps they work best with the temperature maintained at the same temp inside.

You won't have success turning the thermostat down and then returning and trying to 'bring the heat back up'.

If a heatpump is sized correctly, and your house isn't too leaky, it isn't unreasonable to be able to heat without the backup electric strip or gas all the way down to 20 degrees F. Even colder possibly.

If the upgrade price $1600 to go with furnace for each system, thats not bad, but I would just go with electric strip heat and save the money. You won't be needing that electric strip heat much.

Also, I prefer the single stage condensor. Highest efficiency ofcourse.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

neohioheatpump and tigerdunes,

You both seem to pefer a single stage condensor over the 2-stage one. Can you please tell me why? I called and spoke with the American Standard rep today who said that the 2-stage unit would do a better job at reducing the humidity levels in the house than a single stage unit. He also said that in order to get a thermastat with a dehumidify on demand feature, I'd need a whole house dehumidifier, which would run $2k or more. Can you explain to me how the humidify on demand feature works on a thermastat? Is it true I'd need a whole house dehumidifier?

When I asked about the 80% efficiency furnace over the 95% one, he said that the way our house is configured, the 95% one would be the way to go. With a lower efficiency unit, he'd have to install a horizontal (something) in order to get it to work properly. I feel more and more confused. I'm going to call a few other contractors to see what info I get from them. Any other advice you'd offer me at this point?

Thank you for your time and help!


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

I have gone about as far as I can go on a forum like this.

I do prefer the sgl stg Heritage 15 mdl over the two stage Heritage 16 for better humidity removal as well as questionable and justifiable cost difference.

Now to the following statement.
"He also said that in order to get a thermostat with a dehumidify on demand feature, I'd need a whole house dehumidifier, which would run $2k or more. Can you explain to me how the humidify on demand feature works on a thermastat? Is it true I'd need a whole house dehumidifier?"

I don't think it would be helpful to you to explain this other than to say that this statement above is pure unadulterated nonsense-I deliberately decided not to say what I really thought. Either this dealer is ignorant or just not telling the truth.

If you want to list your email in your member profile, I will be glad to contact you with name of another AmStd dealer for your location.

IMO


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

tigerdunes,

I updated my member profile so you can e-mail me. It's been a frustrating, humbling, and rather humiliating experience going through this. I hope I haven't wasted too much of your time.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner,

If you are looking to have this system installed in 2010, you should try and make sure that you take advantage of the $1500 energy star tax credit if at all possible. I just had a new Carrier hybrid heat system installed and saved a considerable amount of money because of energy star incentives from the utility companies, the state of NC, and the federal tax credit.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

tmgeorgo,

Yes, we are trying to take advantage of the tax credit. I wish I had started this process earlier! As of now, I have 2 more contractors coming out to do estimates. Hope to make some sort of decision very soon. Also hope your new system brings you years of good, dependable service.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

you should have rec'd an email this morning.

TD


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

tigerdunes,

I received your email. Thank you for the contact. I have called them and scheduled an appt for next Monday. In the meantime, I am reading as much as I can to familiarize myself with these systems.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

I've done a lot of reading the past few days, mostly on this forum. I'm learning a lot! I am awaiting a bid from a Bryant dealer, but I received a bid from a 2nd American Standard dealer, who suggested a Heritage Hybrid 14 Comfort System, which would have a variable-speed blower, a single stage electric heat pump and 2-stage gas furnace combined into one outdoor unit. (It was suggested that we use this for downstairs and a traditional heat pump upstairs.) Can someone please tell me their thoughts, experiences with this type of hybrid unit? Thank you.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

I believe I suggested same in one of my earlier posts. see below.

"one suggestion, I would stick with the HP with air handler and backup heat strip for upstairs system. however for downstairs system, you might consider a HP with 80% VS gas furnace backup since you already have gas service to your home."

you want to be sized correctly. I would definitely prefer the Heritage 15 HP condenser.

IMO


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

This unit is something different, as the heat pump and furnace are both housed in one outdoor unit. Again, it's called the Heritage HYBRID 14. I am trying to learn if this arrangement would be superior/inferior to stand alone furnace and heat pump for my downstairs.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

unless there is a special reason, I prefer split systems over package units. what do you have now-split or package?


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Tigerdunes,

Thanks for your time and patience. We have a split system now. The package system was recommended by the contractor you suggested in the email. Why your preference? I'd love to hear your thoughts and those of anyone who has experience with this type of unit.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

of course I can't see your home.

if a home has an existing package system, this usually indicates a very shallow crawl space so accessibilty and installation/service can be an issue.

you get better comfort and higher efficiency from a split system mainly from the condenser whether AC or HP. where is your air handler for downstairs system located?

if you go package system, this means there will be a hole made in the side of your home for the ductwork.

price and warranty differences may also play a role. get a comparison between package hybrid and split hybrid systems.

that is a nice package system made by AmStd.

IMO


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

To anyone reading, I can't tell you how grateful I am to Tigerdunes and everyone else who has helped me through this process. I have what I hope are my last series of questions...

After not being satisfied with the original contractors for various reasons (overpriced, not willing to discuss specific equipment, etc) I had a new contractor come today. He is a Bryant dealer, and he did a thorough inspection of all the ductwork, air intakes, etc. He originally quoted 215B heat pumps (15 SEER, 9 HSPF - 2.5 ton upstairs, 2 ton down), without a variable speed air handler. When asked about it, he said that if I wanted to go with a VS air handler, he would strongly recommend that I get new ductwork, as the material I currently have would most likely sweat and could lead to other problems. He also said if he were to do this, he would re-work the duct system to improve the air flow in my home, as I do have some hot/cold spots. He quoted a price of $15,853 to replace and reconfigure ductwork (upstairs and down) and install the heat pumps with VS air handler and an upgraded Bryant thermastat. (With rebates and tax credits, the price would be $13,953.) Does this seem reasonable? Finally, does anyone have experience with air cleaners? My husband and daughter both have allergies, and my daughter also has mild asthma. Just wondering if this equipment is worthwhile.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

Bryant makes good HVAC. The mdl quoted is the Legacy line. Not top end. May be a little noisy but certainly quieter than what you have. I do like the Heritage 15 better because of the electronic demand defrost over time/temp method. Legacy line is basically same as Carrier's Comfort Series models.

You should be able to get both systems including VS air handlers, edge thermostat, heat strip for not more than $12K-before tax credit.

I would have to know more about scope of work for ductwork modifications.

I do not like EACs. I prefer a good basic 4-5" pleated media box filter. Less expensive, zero maintenance,zero
cleaning, no ozone.

post all model numbers for outside and inside units on both systems. were new linesets included?

have you decided against gas backup for downstairs system?

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Bryant Heat Pumps


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Tigerdunes,

I very much appreciate your insights. I literally am losing sleep trying to figure this out! Here is the latest info from the two contractors I like best. The info is sketchy - I hope to have more complete details tomorrow...

Quote 1. Am Std Heritage 15, Honeywell VisionPro IAQ thermostat, Freedom 95 Comfort-R Variable-Speed, 2 stage furnace for downstairs. Same model heat pump upstairs with 2/4 TEE air handler. No changes in ductwork recommended, although contractor mentioned that he did not like material of current ducts. Said it's in good shape for now but at some point will likely need replacing, particularly in the attic. I think quote includes new lineset, but I will double check. Price before rebates, etc: $12,820

Quote 2. Bryant 215B, thermostat model ?, 2 stage gas furnace model ?, same heat pump unit unit but a single speed air handler for upstairs, new ductwork for both upstairs and downstairs units. Price before rebates: $16,201
(price for same equipment without ductwork: $12,211)
(price for same equipment with ductwork and VS air handler upstairs: $16,644)

At this point, my biggest headache is that I am getting conflicting info from the 2 contractors I liked best. Example A: #1 touts the benefits of a 2-stage compressor (I know the 15 is only a single stage), and a VS air handler for improved efficiency, quietness, and humidity control. #1 also says that in order to use the auto dehumidification feature on the t-stat, I would have to go with the 2-stage Heritage 16. #2 said a VS air handler would reduce the HSPF rating of the heat pump (at least on the model he quoted), and is a possible source of costly repairs.
Example B: #1 said the ductwork was okay at this point; #2 said if going with a VS air handler, the ducts would have to be replaced due to sweating, both upstairs and down. #2 also said he would reconfigure them to get better air flow. #1 said that even if he replaced the ducts, they would still sweat.

At this point, I am leaning toward the Am Std quote. While it's obvious that I need more complete information in order to do an accurate comparison, I get the feeling that for roughly the same amount of money, I would be getting an upgraded line of equipment. However, I'm now worried about the ducts and I am still questioning the push for the Heritage 16 and the Freedom 95 furnace. This was the contractor who said an 80% efficient furnace would be a more difficult install. (Does that make any sense?)

Do you have any words of wisdom for me at this point? If you've read this far, you are obviously a patient man! Thank you!!


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Isn't it all crazy? HVAC is really one of those things that you will never have the perfect answer to any question. Too many variables, too many opinions.

I don't know if it was said but 2 stage systems do better with dehumidification. But appropriate sized systems do fine in the summer and have a harder time when the temps are milder. A good stat will help with extending run times no matter how many stages.

If you think your duct work is 20+ years old, I'd replace it. You will have less leakage, better insulation. That is assuming it is flex duct. Either way, new will be more efficient. Enough to justify cost, probably not.

You mentioned problems with comfort in first post. What problems? In the winter or summer? Do the drafts or airflow bother you? These things might help decide how important gas is.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

David,

We've noticed some rooms definitely warmer than others in summer, but those are the ones with southern exposure. The temp in our bonus room above garage is also a little funky - it typically is too warm overall, but if sitting under the vent, it feels freezing cold. We use the bonus room primarily as a rec room. We definitely use it, but don't "live" in there.

Our problems are mainly with heating, as we have had inadequate heat ever since we moved in last January. Even with Aux heat, we can't maintain good comfort level. When I went to bed last night around 1:00 am, the inside temp was registering 63 degrees, with thermostat set to 72. But we haven't had properly working equipment, either. Our units have been repaired through AHS warranty (don't get me started on headaches with them!) no less than 5 times in the 9-10 months that we've actually had the equipment turned on. AHS is coming again today, as last Sunday the the outdoor unit for our downstairs was making "sparking" sound and causing lights on main level of house to flicker. We just want to be rid of this old, broken-down equipment. My husband is wanting the gas furnace, as he prefers the warmer "feel" of air coming out. After this most recent cold spell, I have to agree it would be nice.

I'm probably over-thinking all of this. I know any system I go with will be a huge improvement. It's just hard spending this kind of money on something I know essentially nothing about. Also, knowing we have other major expenses down the road (braces for the kids, repairs or replacement for 10 and 11-year old cars, etc), we don't want to overspend if we can help it. Thank you for your help. I appreciate any and all insights, even if it makes me a little confused in the process.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

The AmStd HVAC is a higher mdl grade than Bryant's Legacy series.

I like the idea of the gas backup for downstairs HP system. However, a 95% eff VS furnace paired with heat pump is overkill for upstate SC. Nothing wrong with it. it's just overkill. I assume the furnace is the 60K BTU model which would be the smallest. Correct? Depending on price savings, the 60K 80% two stg VS furnace model would be a better choice. Both the 95% and 80% furnace mdls 60K have a 17.5" footprint which is more than adequate for downstairs system. I would add a 4-5" pleated filter box cabinet.

post complete mdl number for upstairs air handler. what size heat strip was quoted?

now to ductwork. there are three major components to any ductwork system.

1.size/design both supply and return
2.leakages and good sealing
3.insulation qualities R6 minimum, R8 best.

if you have any hot/cold spots in home, that's usually a ductwork related issue and dealer should address.

I see no compelling reason for the two stg condenser.

IMO


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Tigerdunes, et.al.

I'm getting to sign on the dotted line. This is the quote I'm going with (I think!). I asked again about furnace, and contractor said that in order to install 80% one, he'd have to use a horizontal venting kit which would add to cost, making prices very close or possibly higher, if going with VS blower. I could not find model numbers for all equipment listed on website - I'm guessing Am Std recently changed them. We decided against replacing ducts at this time. Please advise if you think any changes should be made or anything is missing. Thank you!

Upstairs:
Am Std heat pump 4A6H5030E
air handler 4TEE3F31B1
8 kW heat strip

Downstairs:
Am Std heat pump 4A6H5024E
furnace AUH2B060A9V3

Thermostat: Honeywell VisionPro IAQ
new refrigerant lines and flush of lines in wall

10-year parts, 2-year labor, service at first cooling season to make sure system is working properly

Total price before rebates, etc: $12,100 (does include a discount for paying by cash)


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

I think you'll be just fine. You think you've overthought it, but it's better to feel that way than to rush and make a mistake. Unless an 80% furnace is vastly cheaper, I wouldn't choose one for my house. You'll have to live with the equipment you buy now for a long time and no one knows what natural gas prices will be in the future, so I think it's always better to buy the most efficient appliance that fits in your budget. When you are replacing everything, that's the best time to put in a complete, integrated system and set yourself up for many years of comfort and savings.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

final thoughts.

all of this AmStd is quality HVAC.

how many returns do you have downstairs and how many upstairs? how are you filtering the air?

has ductwork system both upstairs and doownstairs been inspected?

I would put a 4-5" pleated filter media cabinet on new downstairs system-like Honeywell 200.

As said previously, a 95% eff furnace paired with HP for downstairs is overkill. you might think of dropping the HP for the AC counterpart-AS Allegiance 15. This will save you some bucks. your decision though. what was evap coil model for downstairs system?

For upstairs system, that is not the best choice air handler size. I would select the 039 VS model for much better efficiency numbers.

that's about it.

let me know if you have any questions.

IMO
Good LucK!


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Thank you tmgeorgo and tigerdunes and all who have taken the time to help me through this process. To answer your questions, Tigerdunes, we have 9 returns upstairs (2 of those in bonus room), 10 on main floor of house. Our filters currently are 3M 1" pleated filters located at air intakes (1 on main level, 1 in upstairs hall and 1 in bonus room). I was told that an AprilAire model 2410 could be installed for $400 per system (up and down), and that replacement filters run $60 each. I'm not sure how completely the ducts were inspected. I will ask the contractor about it.

Question about A/C paried with furnace vs. heat pump: How would this option compare in terms of noise level, humidity control, energy efficiency and costs to operate? I have to admit I hadn't thought of this option, as everyone here seems to have heat pumps.

I will check on upstairs air handler and downstair evap coil. Thank you again for helping me!


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Found out evap coil model for downstairs: 4TXCB031BC3.

When I asked about handler for upstairs, he said he had made a mistake, thinking of smaller unit. The model he would use is the 040 VS.

Haven't decided yet on media cabinet. Can someone give me more info on that, please?


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

a heatpump's heat isn't nearly as hot as a gas furnace's heat. So it will run considerable longer to satisfy the thermostat. The advantage to this is you will get a very thorough temperature in the house. You won't have cold spots. Heat pump heat also doesn't typically dry your house out as gas does.
Heatpumps are very efficient, especially above 30 degrees. If you have demand defrost, unnecessary defrosts are eliminated.

The disadvantages to a heatpump is when it starts getting too cold you will notice the heatpump to be running much of the time. Your comfort level won't be as good either.

When the heatpump is in defrost, the emergency heat must kick in to otherwise cold air will be pushed into your house.

Dual fuel is the way to go in my opinion. Using the gas for cold days is comfy. Using the heatpump for not so cold days is efficient and comfy. Having the gas for the backup is probably nicer and cheaper than having straight electric for backup. I also prefer to set my thermostat to emergency (gas-heat cause I have dual-fuel) when a snow or ice storm happens to avoid all the defrosts.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Neohioheatpump,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think I want to stay with dual fuel, too, as I like having the option of choosing gas or electric heat. Do you have any thoughts about models and equipment chosen? I'm particularly interested in learning about the AprilAire 2410 unit - wondering what the benefits would be and if cost seems appropriate. ($400 installed per unit, $60 per replacement filter)


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Ditto on dual fuel. That's what I just had installed and I love it. It was hardly more expensive than a straight AC & furnace. I run my heat pump at temps above 45 F and the 93% eff furnace below that. The furnace is better than my old 80% furnace, after it reaches the set point temperature every cycle from then on runs longer and at a lower fan speed. It almost feels like a heat pump except the air temp is 100+ F, rather than 90F.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

well, if the aprilaire is a humidifier, you'll probably only be using the humidifier when the gas furnace runs. Thats what I have setup. You could probably go without the aprilaire since most of the time your going to be running your heatpump in your southern climate. I like the equipment your selecting.

I'm glad to see tmgeorgo's comment. Dual fuel doesn't have to cost much more than straight ac and gas furnace. Heatpumps really don't cost alot more. Installers love to charge tons more and make a heatpump sound like some fancy luxury item.

If I was tmgeorgo I would run the heatpump down to atleast 40 or maybe even 35. At 35 out, my heatpump runs a little less 1/2 the time. I get some nice longs cycles and a very thoroughly heated house. Although at the moment, gas is cheap and might be a touch cheaper than heatpump in the 30's depending on your electric rate and other factors.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

neohioheatpump, 40F is my next step, once I get my gas bill for this month and have a chance to compare the costs. The installer suggested that 40F or 4F5 would be good options for this area and my house, so I decided to start with 45F and see how we liked it. We're also experimenting with locations for the outdoor temp sensor, right now it's in a spot that appears to read temps a few degrees higher than it should. I'd also like to have that working as well as possible before I make the heat pump work at lower temperatures.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

newsoutherner

I like the box filters because they do a better job filtering the air and give the protection you require for the evap coil and VS blower motor. I would recommend one for each system but especially the furnace system. They last up to one yr before changeout, changeout is very simple, zero cleaning, zero maintenance, zero ozone. The Honeywell model may be less expensive. Generic filters are available on internet at less expensive price than the OEM filter.

I still think downstairs system is overkill but of course that's your choice.

I can't remember.are you keeping existing linesets?

IMO
Good Luck!


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RE: coil selection

newsouthern

one other thought and I will leave you alone.

4TXCB036BC3

this is a much better evap coil selection. insist on it.

IMO


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

tigerdunes, neohioheatpump and tmgeorgo,

I am extremely grateful to you and all who have written in their advice and opinions. Nobody has been "bothering" me with their advice. If anything, I have been a pest with my endless questions!!

I will ask about the evap coil you suggested, tigerdunes, and will order the media cabinets, especially since we're not always good at remembering to change the filters as often as we should. Is $400 installed a reasonable price? About the downstairs system... Other than intial cost, is there any reason why the HP with 95 gas furnace would be a bad choice?

I apologize for all my questions. I do see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I will post once installation is complete to let you all know how things are. Thanks again to all and Merry Christmas!


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

nope, pull the trigger on that install. Let us know how you like it and about the energy savings.

95% furnace with highest single stage heatpump. Dual fuel - an efficient, cost effective, very comfy solution.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

Yup, do it. You're getting close to the end of 2010, get it installed and enjoy it.

I found this neat spreadsheet last night that lets you calculate and compare the costs of different types of fuel for heating:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

Plug in your electric rate, therm costs, HSPF of the heat pump and AFUE of the furnace. For me, the costs of using the 8.5 HSPF heat pump is $11.18, the 92% furnace is $10.86. So this year, hybrid heat is about the same cost for gas or electric, as long as I let my furnace do the work for anything colder than 40F.


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

I have revisited this posting several times because I have been going back and forth trying to determine the pros and cons of a 15 versus 16 seer American Standard heat pump. We moved to Greenville, SC about two years ago knowing that we would be replacing our hvac system and duct work within a few years. We have a gas furnace and outdoor a/c that is about 22 years old. We have a reputable contractor and we have had the appropriate load calculation done. This thread has me stumped on which direction to go. We have a ranch style 2600 square foot home and we have no complaints about our humidity control in our home. With the current AS rebates the 16 seer 4-ton heat pump will be about the same cost as the 15 but I wondering if we want it. People prefer the latent humidity control of the 15 but why and what does that mean? I understand that the efficiency difference between the two is small. My main concern is the humidity control between the two systems. What is the difference between on demand humidity control on the thermostat versus the humidity control on the 16 seer AS model? Would having the first stage setting running more often than a 15 create more condensation on the coil and make us more susceptible to moisture/mold issues? If so, how do you know this? I spoke to someone today who had the 15 seer furnace and outdoor a/c and within two weeks asked for the contractor to upgrade them to the 16 seer because they said their home was too humid. He said he is in love with his system now. Can this experience be applied to the heatpumps?
Thanks so much!!


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RE: Trane XL15i vs American Standard Heritage 16

We have to replace our 11 year old 5 ton Trane HP/Ac package. The American Standard Salesman was out today suggesting an AS Heritage Hybrid Ultimate 16-5 Ton. Our hone is a one floor 2,700 foot ranch in Crossville, TN. I have a good electronic air filter and a poor Honey well humidifier. Poor but I do not think I need a better one and I control the humidify from the separate wall control. What would be a reasonable price for this unit installed with some replacement of ductwork and a Honeywell Visio Pro 1AQ thermostat that you have been suggesting?


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