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rmrc12

Trane XR14 price quote...opinions please.

rmrc12
13 years ago

I�ve spent quite a bit of time reading through various price quote opinion threads here which leads me to believe the quotes I've received are too high. My HVAC knowledge is VERY limited so I come here to ask the experts for help.

House: 2-story 2,500 sq ft

Location: Orange County, CA

Work to be done: replace existing 24 yr-old Carrier 5 ton AC unit and coil with 5 ton Trane XR14 and corresponding coil, reposition furnace in attic to make room for new coil, haul away old AC and coil, flush line set, replace all ducting in attic, pressure test system. Note, the furnace is �newer� so a new line set is not required. Job quoted to take 1.5 days to complete.


Quote #1 = $6,200

Quote #2 = $6,800.

I have a 3rd contractor coming out for a quote today. I chose the XR14 over the XB14 primarily for the quieter operation. Since we run the AC a total of only ~20 days a year I�m considering going with a builders model XB13 or XB14 to save a few hundred.

I�m lost so I really appreciate your expert opinions.

Comments (26)

  • tigerdunes
    13 years ago

    rmrc

    what age, size,brand, mdl of existing furnace?

    you are certain five ton AC is correct size?

    unless furnace has a var speed blower, you might just consider the XR13 condenser.

    I also prefer and recommend new refrigerant lineset.

    since it appears you are getting new ductwork, any hot/cold spot problems in home should be addressed. I do suggest damper control on supply lines to help balance airflow between the floors. what type of new ductwork? how will it be insulated?

    IMO

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    tigerdunes-

    Thanks so much for the initial response. I don't know the make/model/age of the existing furnace but will try to determine this when I get home from work. Perhaps I'll just ask the contractor who comes over this afternoon for this info. I do know it's a single speed.

    The existing Carrier is a 5 ton but you bring up a good point. I've seen others here get quotes on 4 ton units with up to 3,000 sq ft so I will be sure to ask the contractors if they think I really need a 5 ton or if that's what they quoted simply because that's what I currently have.

    Damper control to help balance air flow between thee floors is another great recommendation. The upper floor always gets so hot in the winter and obviously takes much longer to cool in the summer.

    As for the ductwork questions, all I know is what I've seen in the attic. The current ductwork is covered by insulation but in a way that it appears the ducts were slid through long insulation tubes. The insulation is brittle from sun/heat and falling apart. Sorry, I just don't know the first thing about various kinds of ductwork. I'll ask the contractor today.

    I agree, I'm beginning to think that either the XB13/XR13 is the way to go given the small amount we run the air during the summer months. The whole house fan was the best investment ever.

    I'll get answers to your queestions and come back. Again, I REALLY appreciate the response.

  • mike_home
    13 years ago

    If you are only using the air conditioner 20 days of the year, then it seems a 5 ton air conditioner seems over sized for a 2500 sq. ft. house in your location.

    The contractor should perform a Manual J calculation. This will determine the amount of heat gain. Don't fall for contractors who want to replace what you have, or estimate size by the area of the house. If they are not willing to do this, then continue looking for another contractor.

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    More info on the existing furnace:

    Payne model PG8DAA060115
    Series D
    3/4hp
    Force w 5.60 (don't know what this means but thought it might be important so I included it).

    Quote #1 is $5,825 including permit for the 5 ton XR13.
    Quote #2 dropped to $6,400 for the 5 ton XR13.

    The 3rd contractor ran late for the 2nd day and didn't call when promised so he's out. I will get another estimate from a contractor I found on the Trane dealer list. I asked both contractors about the 5 ton vs. a smaller model and both recommended a 5 ton for my application for over 2,000 sq ft.

    Given the amount of use I'm partial to the quieter XR13 and it doesn't look like there are any more XR14s in my area. I'm told that Trane is phasing out the XR13 and XR14. The bottom end XR model will be the XR15. The XB13 and XB14 will be the bottom end builders models.

    Thanks again for the help and opinions.

  • tigerdunes
    13 years ago

    rmrc

    there is nothing wrong with the XR13 for your application.

    two questions need to be answered though.

    what is correct size-4 ton or 5 ton?

    and you want a matching Trane evap coil-no third party coil is acceptable. what mdl has dealer quoted?

    I am sure you are aware that the Payne furnace is rather low end. What is its age?

    post back.

    IMO

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Thanks mike_home. I will ask the 3rd contractor to perform the J calculation. Interestingly, when I asked the contractors 4 vs.5 ton there was no hesitation that 5 ton was better for our application. Perhaps I�ll ask specifically why they don�t think a 4 ton would be appropriate.

    tigerdunes-

    Yeah I'm aware that this Payne model is an 80% AFUE and that it's basically a builders model. But, in my case this is fine. It just doesn't get very cold here in southern CA and the heat is run in short 10-15min bursts when used. I got a quote on a 95% Trane furnace but even with the rebate I'll probably be in a retirement home before it would pay for itself. When it needs replacing I'll go for the upgrade.

    I have no furnace paperwork from the previous owner of the home. I've been in the house for 7 years but have no way of knowing the age of this furnace. Perhaps there's a manufacture date somewhere?

    The coil quoted is for the appropriate matching Trane coil. I'll note that I also had the contractors quote a comparable Rheem and it came in only a few hundred less than the Trane. I think I'd prefer to go the Trane route given the minimal price difference.

    Given the information I can provide, do you have an opinion of what this job should cost given my location in southern CA (everything is more expensive in CA it seems), the work I described, and when going the XR13 route? The first and less expensive contractor came highly recommended to me. Given these first two estimates are somewhat close I'm curious if $5,825 seems in-line with what it should cost.

    Again, thanks very much for the insights. These forums are a hugely valuable resource for the less informed such as myself.

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Neither estimate has a coil model number written down but both say "Trane Evaporator coil R-410A 5 ton horizontal." I know r-410a refers to the refrigerant but hopefully the other info helps.

  • tigerdunes
    13 years ago

    rmrc

    if you get the mdl number of coil, I will verify that it is a match.

    IMO

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Coil: Trane 4TXCC060BC3HCA

    Thanks!

  • tigerdunes
    13 years ago

    rmrc

    looks good for a 5 ton. could take a smaller coil for a 4 ton.

    be aware the XR13 comes in both R-410a and R22 mdls. Make certain you get the R-410a mdl.

    if the ductwork is a complete new system, I would say the pricing is reasonable for Southern Cali.

    what do you do now for air filtration?

    IMO

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Thanks very much. Correct, this is a complete new system (XR13 r-410a condenser, evap coil, all new ducting) and all the other work outlined in my first post. We have no alergy problems in the house so I have no plans to add any additional air filtration.

    I just hung up with a 3rd contractor who's coming by today. We dicussed the option of a two thermostat dual zone system to help balance the temp between the 1st and 2nd floors. He's also a big proponent of the Rheem and will quote both.

    Thanks again for the advice

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    I just had a 3rd contractor leave and he quoted me on a COMPLETE Rheem system in addition to the XR13, coil, ducting I described previously.

    Rheem RGL09NZAJS 95% 2-stage PSC Blower Furnace
    Rheem RANL060JAZ Classic 13 SEER A/C, single stage, R-410A
    Rheem evaporator coil RCFLHM6024AL
    All new R-6.0 ducting in the attic
    + everything described in my first post

    Total price: $6,999
    + ducting and new upstairs return: $900
    Total $7,899

    -SoCal Edison furnace rebate $200
    -Federal tax credit $1,500

    Total after all rebates and tax credit: $6,199

    This compares to $5,825 for just the XR13, coil and R-4.2 ducting from the other contractor.

    The choice to go Rheem seems clear but it almost seems too good to be true. Should I have reservations on this bid?

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    I keep forgetting important info. The Rheem is also 5 ton.

    Thanks for the feedback.

  • david_cary
    13 years ago

    A 95% furnace is only done to get the tax credit. It is complex and repairs can be more expensive. I realize that the upgrade is nearly "free" but don't forget the possible repair bills.

    The majority of houses have oversized a/c units. Yours probably is and contractors always prefer to oversize. The result is less efficient and with your electric rates, that hurts.

    The dryness of your climate may change things significantly but in my climate, we run the a/c 140 days a year and 5 tons would be huge for 2400 sq ft. But it isn't just about sq ft - the amount, size and type of west facing windows is a big determinant. If you don't have large west windows, than 5 tons is a lot.

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    david-

    Thanks for your feedback. The back of our house is south facing with big windows and a lot of exposure. We get considerable direct heat. Three upstairs bedrooms are West facing so they get a lot of late afternoon heat.

    One of the primary reasons we have used the A/C so little in the past is somewhat related to the ridiculous electric rates in CA. The fact that it cools down nicely most nights is another reason as the whole house fan sucks all that hot air out while sucking cool air in. Is also circulates the air in the attic which helps to cool the attic much more quickly.

    Having said all this, I suspect we'll use the A/C a little more often in the summer with a far more efficient and effective system. An upstairs return should also help immensely. In the past the old Carrier could run for hours and barely budge the thermostat so most of the time it just wasn't worth it.

    Think I might take the gamble on the 95% furnace so I can get that nice rebate. Just hope the latest Rheem excellent Consumer Reports results hold true for me.

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Follow-up question for the pros:

    For only $450 more than the comparable Rheem system I ended up going for the Trane system.

    XR13 A/C
    XR95 furnace (TDH1D110A9601A)
    Coil
    R-6.0 ducting, etc...everything mentioned previously.

    The contractor I ultimately went with told me Trane delivers one of 3 matched evaporator coils - a Trane or one of two third party coils). I told the contractor I wanted a Trane coil and he said "Trane would probably supply a Trane coil." The only thing that makes sense to me is that Trane would recommend using a Trane coil with a Trane furnace and A/C. I plan to call the contractor tomorrow morning and tell him that if he's not going to install a matching Trane coil then not to send his crew out Wednesday morning when I scheduled the install.

    I don't want a third party coil but wanted to ask the experts here if you've ever heard of such a thing before? Sounds to me like the contractor just wants to make some extra margin on the coil.

    Thanks in advance.

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    For those that know can you please provide the 5 ton XR13 matched coil model number so that I can tell the contractor what I want?

    Thanks very much for the help!

  • wlc123
    13 years ago

    Just as a reference, I recently replaced my heating ac system entirely. I have a 2800 sq. ft home and had a bryant 14 seer puron installed and a 95% efficient 100K furnace. I had a new lineset run and new electric and outside box. I had them enlarge about 50% of my duct run in the basement, and put a elbow at the top of the upflow to decrease air resistance. I wanted to go with 4 ton and the contractor talked me out of it. He did some calculations and said 3 ton was fine. Sometimes I wish I used my gut, but most of the time we are fine. Much better than the 13 year old comfortmaker we had. Total cost for me following all rebates was 7K

  • tigerdunes
    13 years ago

    rmrc

    while you may not want to hear this, it appears your system choice is being driven more about brand than actual equipment selection. I do like Trane but it will always be more expensive and the Rheem two stg furnace is certainly a better choice than the sgl stage Trane. Rheem makes good HVAC and is frequently an overlooked/underrated brand.

    I would want a new lineset and a good 4-5" pleated filter media cabinet.

    IMO

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    tigerdunes-

    I would agree with your point about brand if it were earlier in the process. I was very pleased with the Rheem decision. But there were two reasons for my change of heart. #1) the contractor tried to pull a fast one and called to tell me that he "misquoted the Rheem furnace" and that in fact he meant the single stage 95% furnace. Two stage would have been more. This left a bad taste in my mouth so I excluded him from consideration. #2) was driven purely by aesthetics. The taller and thinner dimensions of the Trane A/C condenser fit much better in the corner of the house/yard where the A/C goes. The much larger footprint of the Rheem left very little space to walk by in a fairly high traffic area.

    So in the end I know the Rheem is every bit as good as the Trane but I'm paying a little more for aesthetics.

    One additional point which weighed ever so slightly when combined with the other two main points- 2 of the 3 contractors who came over said they have fewer Trane service calls than for Rheem. What the hell, who am I to believe? I just needed to make a decision and did so.

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Wanted to follow up post install and thank tigerdunes and others who helped with my questions. The XR13, XR95, and all new ducting (with dampers) in the attic are installed. I know a 95% furnace is total overkill in southern CA but at the end of the day I replaced my 12 year old builders model Payne 80% furnace with the XR95 at a total out of pocket of $400 after federal tax credit and gas company rebate.

    It was suggested I go with a variable speed two stage furnace which was the plan with the Rheem but on 12/31 the Rheem contractor informed me he made an error and that his quote was for a single stage furnace. This didn't sit well with me (and the dimensions of the Rheem condensor were restricting) so with no time to get additional quotes I went with the single stage Trane.

    Would a VS furnace provide a little more comfort? I think there is little doubt that it would but with the addition of the upstairs return and dampers in the ducting I�m able to nicely balance the temperature between the upstairs and downstairs which was absolutely impossible previously. I also replaced all the old registers with new bar style registers and the difference is dramatic. I have the furnace blower speed set one notch below the default speed and with a quiet home can detect only a slight audible whisper from the vents. One half the downstairs has high vaulted 2-story ceilings but the home still heats quickly and efficiently. In the morning it takes roughly 25 minutes to raise the home temperature from 62 to 68 degrees where previously it took at least 2x that.

    My one complaint is that I can feel the air coming from the downstairs vents (with the upstairs dampened down) when I walk by. The opposite will be true in the summer when I dampen down the ducts leading to the downstairs. It would be nice to have no clue the blower is on when walking by the vents but given the moderate southern CA climate and the $1,000 cost difference for VS I can live with it.

    Thanks again-

  • tigerdunes
    13 years ago

    the worst thing is you are terribly oversized on heating because you needed the 5 ton blower rating.

    td

  • rmrc12
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Yes when shopping cooling was a far greater concern than heating so the oversize heating was a compromise. Like you said before, a 2 stage VS furnace would be better and would probably rarely run on the second stage but this is such a dramatic improvement it's something I can live with. Heating is surprisingly even at the current blower speed so for $400 I'm happy.

  • Oliveirarob
    9 years ago

    Hello. Can someone please give me some light on this?
    5yr-old Trane 4TTR4048A (4 ton)+ Trane Air Handler versus a brand new Rheem 14AJM36A01(3 TON) + RH1T3621MTANJA?
    Trane asking price: $1650 (need Thermostat and installation)
    Rheem: $2825 installed
    If price does not make sense, what would be a good price to pay for the Trane to take the risk?
    It is a 3,800 sqft, 2-store house with a lot of sliding doors facing the sun in the afternoon. Currently, I have one 15-yr old Amana upstairs (2.5ton, which in the opinion of some Technicians, where undercalculated), and a 20 yr-old Trane (2.5 ton) downstairs. As the Amana has variable speed and works OK, I plan to replace the old, reliable Trane (which was less serviced than the Amana). To make sense, I would have to install the 4 ton for upstairs and bring the Amana to the 1st floor. But, I can wait another couple of years and change the Amana later. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    This thread is over 3 1/2 yrs old.

    It is considered poor forum etiquette to hijack onto someone else's thread.

    Go to main page bottom of page and start your own thread where everyone can follow. You will receive better help/advice if you follow these instructions.

    IMO

  • Oliveirarob
    9 years ago

    I am sorry about that. I have searched the subject on Google and followed thru.
    i have opened a new thread. Hopefully. I will get some comments.
    Regards,