http://cgi.ebay.com/DUCTLESS-MINI-SPLIT-AIR-CONDITIONER-HEAT-18000-btu-NEW_W0QQitemZ160175816361QQihZ006QQcategoryZ20711QQcmdZViewItem

‘Bon Air makes one also down to 25 below 0’

Really? I doubt it. The only heat pump that works effectively at that temperature is a geothermal HP.

IMO

SR

I looked at the uswesco.com web site. Personally, I think it’s all smoke & mirrors, if it sounds too good to be true – it is!

First of all, like most of the air-source heat pump industry, there is nowhere near the full disclosure of specifications you’ll find in most of the ground source heat pump industry.

Second, just take a close look at the specs provided on this page of their web site:

http://uswesco.com/files/ACHP/Hallowell/pdf/FahrenheitBTUCOP.pdf

For example, look at model 42C/46H ºF ACHP Heating Performance. If you examine this chart carefully, you will see that the ‘back-up’, 4.8kW heater, comes on at +30ºF! Not very good at all – especially if your electrical rate is high and this is in addition to the HP running flat out (Primary & Booster) as well! That’s how they claim their units run down to -30º - accurate but misleading.

Their best HP is probably no better (hard to tell as they don’t disclose specs fully) than any run of the mill air-source HP designed for the Canadian winter (back-up kicks in at
10ºF to 14ºF). Here in Canada, once this temp. is reached, the HP is switched off completely as it is inefficient to continue running it.

If you’re really looking for high efficiency look to geothermal – and yes, it’s going to cost a lot more. Nothing’s free (except the renewable energy you will then be able to extract from the ground).

Just for example, take a look at WaterFurnace Envision, with a COP of 5 (30 EER). For every 1kW of electricity you pay for you’ll get 5kW of heat (17,065Btu/h), 4 of which will be free (13,652Btu/h) courtesy of the sun. Also compare the disclosure of specifications between WaterFurnace and Hallowell. You will notice that Hallowell is more like Halloween, where everything is behind a mask.

Caveat Emptor

SR

Thanks for finally being upfront about the cost of geothermal and I mean that sincerely. The sticker price should always be in plain site because very few people are able to afford geothermal.

I don’t know about the Hallowell system but as a skeptic myself; I will be looking closely into it. This topic does reconfirm my post from a month back however, that technology will continue to improve. With fuel prices rising, it’s a guarantee that someone is working hard and trying to strike it rich by coming up with the next super advanced EHP. It may not be this year or next but there are some super efficient systems in the works. I have been reading about a Japanese company that’s expecting to release a new system in early 2009.

I have been having many conversations lately about geothermal with some HVAC consultants and building science guys. I have some questions for you that maybe you can clarify.

1.) There is not a single published "measured energy use" on geothermal that I or anyone I know can find, NOT ONE. There are plenty of statements being made by manufactures but nothing is published. If there is one out there, we are very curious to see it. If you know of one, can you post it please?

2.) The WaterFurnace Envision, with a COP of 5 (30 EER) sounds very impressive but that COP does not calculate the electricity required for the circulation pump. If it does, can you please show me where this is figured into their analysis? A standard EHP does not use a circulation pump. These circulation pumps require a fair amount of electricity to push the liquid through thousands of feet of high resistance piping. Our findings are once you figure in the electric usage of the circulation pump, it lowers the COP to a 4 or 3.5 with is now in the range of a traditional Electric Heat Pump.

3.) A question has come up from a homeowner with geothermal living in the far north east. For the last three years, they are seeing their utility bills rising during the winter months. After calculating in rate increases, it looks like over the last three winters, they are using 10% more electricity to heat their home with geothermal.

Apparently this homeowner uses the system to heat but very little if any for cooling. This unbalanced usage is lowering the loop field temperatures and making the system less efficient. Have you ever heard of this issue?

Just another FYI, I found a homeowner at my church who recently converted from a natural gas/AC system to a new geothermal, closed loop system. They are now saving 25% in their utility bills over the last 11 months and they are very pleased with their geothermal decision. Unfortunately, their old system was installed almost 30 years ago. I didn’t have the heart to tell them that they would be saving close to that on their utility bills anyway if they used today’s high efficiency equipment. The only difference is they spent mucho dinero for the geothermal.

Thanks,

P.S. Stop stealing my "Caveat Emptor" statement!

- NFW. I can type the meaning of those 3 letters if you need me to. 25 below zero? Don't be fooled by something you read.

Are you looking to put this heat pump in Virginia? Is your house all-electric? What are your electric rates ($ per kw-hour)?

There is no new technology involved at all, just different and more extensive configurations of that which is in other units. Sometimes too good to be true is just the new curve...

Thanks to all who are interacting! Let's all keep up the dialogue and not get perturbed at disagreement because we all may benefit from a new discovery.

Not great, but not terrible.

I have a Trane XL1200. After some initial problems with the unit it's been very good for me. I have an all electric house.

I keep the temperature fairly low (66 to 68) in the winter and spot heat with ceramic heaters if I need to.

In the 14 years I've been in the house I've never had an electric bill in the winter over $130, and most are well below that.

The newer air exchange heat pumps are much more efficient in border areas like Virginia.

To be 100% honest I'd rather have baseboard hot water, but I don't.

- Those are probably generating costs only and do not include transmission and distribution. I pay about 13 cents/kw-hour total delivery cost in Baltimore. Our electricity went up 65% thanks to de-regulation and no competition.

I have looked into the Hallowell unit. There big advancement is the booster compressor and subcooling economizer. They still use a 5 kw electric heat strip in conjunction with the 2 stage heat pump compressor and additional booster compressor at 10 degrees outside air temp.

An EER of 12.3, SEER of 14, and HSPF of 9.6 for the 36C35H is not much better than my new 3 ton Goodman GSH14 heat pump (12 EER, 14 SEER, 9 HSPF).

With your fairly decent electric rates coupled with your Virginia climate, I'm not sure why you are looking at this Arctic system. What is the price tag on this system?

For a startup company in this industry where your competition has billions of dollars, not thousands of dollars, it would be a fair bet to say they are highly undercapitalized. If they don’t have the money to grow much faster in this industry, the odds are they are going to fail.

As a homeowner, I won’t take a chance on a new company not being around in a few years. As a homeowner, I won’t take a chance on a new company whose equipment might not work as promised and also might now be around in a few years.

They are growing but if Hallowell International truly had the equipment that delivered what is being said about it such as, "Acadia outperforms conventional heating systems by 200 percent, and has already lowered home energy bills by up to 70 percent -- even when outside temperatures reach well below zero."

If these statements are true, every major manufacturer around the world would be on their doorsteps in a bidding war for that patent. If this patent were that good, a very small company such as Hallowell International probably couldn’t refuse the offers they would be getting.

I could be wrong but even if the equipment does perform as stated, you’re taking a big chance on the company.

- You need to read the tech info on their website. It is energized at +10 on a call for second stage heating.

"Our electricity really is not as expensive as gargyg's, even after figuring all other costs, so this would be extremely economical to operate."

- So why are you going to pay 2x the cost when a regular air source heat pump will work with your low electric prices and moderate climate.

You don't live in Alaska or Canada. This is overkill for Virginia (why do I feel like I'm talking to my wife and she isn't listeming).

PS. Tell Al Gore I said hello.

NEVER rely on this.
Real equipment is tested and certified by labs, not Joe Blow saying "It worked real good".

""I am in VA and our electricity at this time is an average of 6.36 cents, with it being 5.92 in winter."

- Those are probably generating costs only and do not include transmission and distribution. I pay about 13 cents/kw-hour total delivery cost in Baltimore. Our electricity went up 65% thanks to de-regulation and no competition."

No, Virgina electricity is still very reasonably priced.
Dominion Virginia Power still owns generating and distribution assets.
The Peoples Democratic Republic of Maryland legislature screwed up the electric regulation big time.
You get what you voted for.

While it was never my intention to conceal the cost of GSHPs, I agree that it should be clear at the outset. However, there really is no concealing the cost. It’s going to come up and pretty fast. The cost factor of geothermal is ALWAYS the 600-pound gorilla in the room; no matter how you tap dance around it – it’s still there!

The biggest improvements to performance have been 2 stage scroll compressors and ECM variable speed blower motors. I too am a skeptic. I believe progress will be made incrementally, not with dramatic breakthroughs. There’s no free lunch.

Even GSHPs with higher (5) COPs there is a cost involved and that cost is a larger earth loop. More drilling, more pipe, more antifreeze, more pumping power. Does it work? Yes. Is the claim legitimate? Yes. Is it worth it? Yes. But it’s not free! The incremental cost increase will be recovered through reduced operating and maintenance costs.

Geothermal will really pay off in areas that have serious heating or cooling load requirements, preferably both. Extreme temperatures +large building envelopes = faster payback.

1.) Regarding published energy use. It is published in the technical manuals of virtually every GSHP manufacturer as a downloadable pdf. The WaterFurnace link in my above post is but one such example. You will need some knowledge and experience to fully extract and interpret the data – but it’s all there. It HAS to be; otherwise we CANNOT design systems (with any predictability)! Download and expand the WaterFurnace pdf. Look at pages 37 & 38. This is a 2-speed nominal 3-1/2 ton HP. The specs are all there, but don’t neglect the info on pages 19 & 20 – very important!

Back to your question again, published energy use. Where does all this published data leave you? Well guess what -you’re STILL back at the starting gate. Why? Because unlike an air-source HP that you slap on the foundation wall and drill only about 8 inches or so, with geothermal, you have to take this information and then CUSTOM design a ground loop! How many feet (hundreds!) of borehole, open loop or closed-loop, how many feet of HDPE pipe, what diameter, parallel or series connection, what kind of antifreeze, what concentration of antifreeze, what viscosity is this antifreeze, how many feet of head, how many circulating pumps, whose pumps, series or parallel connected pumps, what header design (parallel installation only), how many GPM, what kind of joints (butt or socket fusion), total resistance of all joints (different for each size & type), and on and on and on! These are but a FEW of the factors that go into designing a GSHP system. Who ever you hire had better understand it all if the ‘as built’ system is to look (operate) anything like the ‘as designed’ system.

It HAS to be done right the first time out. Mistakes can be costly to correct – especially if they’re at the bottom of a 600ft. borehole! That’s why a good designer is worth their weight in gold.

The bottom line to your question is that each and every GSHP installation should have its own ‘as built’ book listing FULL specs for that specific installation. Why? Because it’s every system owners’ RIGHT to own such a document, it’s ethically required of the installer, because every system is different and custom designed - even if the same HP is used, and most importantly so that there is a base line to go back to if something/anything goes wrong.

I would also like to add, with some sense of pride, that Canada now has the highest standard in the world to have a residential GSHP installation certified. It’s enough to make most (every) installers want to hang themselves, but is very good for the consumer.

2.) "The WaterFurnace Envision, with a COP of 5 (30 EER) sounds very impressive but that COP does not calculate the electricity required for the circulation pump."

The 5-COP does include the power consumption of the circulating pump, as this configuration is a closed loop system. A closed loop system is a balanced system much like an elevator with compensating counter balance weights. Extreme heavy lifting is only done residentially in open loop systems, particularly those with deep wells. A 3 ton system, as in the above mentioned example will only require 1 circulating pump rated at a nominal 1/6 hp. Furthermore, this pump is located in the mechanical room next to the GSHP so any heat generated by the circulating pump is a net gain in the heating mode. It only really becomes a net minus in the A/C mode.

The reference you are seeking regarding this matter of pumping power is in the above-mentioned pdf section 1, page 8, titled ‘Performance Standard ARI/ISO/ASHRAE 13256-1’. N.B. ‘Pump Power Correction Calculation’ & ‘ISO Capacity and Efficiency Calculations’.

3.) Regarding this residential homeowner’s system, there is obviously a problem. I have heard of these problems but it is difficult to comment without knowing all the facts. One thing is certain; it is not because of ‘unbalanced usage lowering the loop field temperatures’. Not likely in a residential application anyway. Nothing can be more unbalanced than the heating and cooling loads of large commercial buildings and those with properly designed geothermal systems work just fine.

The problem is more likely due to an insufficiently sized ground loop, or flow rate. It’s really much more complicated than that but we don’t have all the facts. Is it a pond loop? Is it a vertical or horizontal loop? How many feet of borehole if it’s vertical? How many feet of trench if it’s horizontal? How many pipes per trench if it’s horizontal, buried at what depth? And on and on and on etc.

The bottom line is the installer didn’t do his homework. More than likely, it’s a flow rate problem. Someone who knows what they’re doing has to measure flow rate in GPM and feet of head as well as EWT (entering water temperature) & LWT (leaving water temperature), then reference this to the manufacturer’s specifications for that HP as in our pdf mentioned above. This is precisely why an ‘as built book’ is vitally important. It’s the road map of what was done, how it was done and a baseline of performance so that any competent tech can walk in there and be able to say ‘ah ha, this is what’s wrong’. I’ve heard of cases where they’ve had to pump out all the loop fluid into barrels with compressed air and measure the volume of fluid just to approximate how many feet of pipe they had down hole because nobody really knew. Talk about a nightmare!

As for your neighbors at church who converted from natural gas to geothermal? Well praise the Lord; they’ve seen the light! In terms of CO2 emissions, it’s about the equivalent of getting 3 cars off the road. You should thank them. Amen!

Steve

I think you should reread all of garyg’s posts. I give them a 2 thumbs up.

Except for saying ‘hello’ to Al Gore – he’s a Warm Monger!

SR

- And now the newly elected Maryland Governer is trying to raise taxes big time to balance the State budget. He was against slots as mayor but now realizes the need for the slots revenue as Governer. I smell a recession: high energy prices, high gas prices, high taxes, large personal credit card debt, shrinking dollar, high national debt, etc.

"Do keep up the dialogue but leave out the petty references."

Hmmm. I detect arrogance.

I have to second, third, whatever, many of the comments that have been made here about being very skeptical about the kind of claims that Hallowell is making about its equipment, and to NEVER EVER base your decision on testimonials.

That said, there are a couple of reasons why I'm skeptical.

1. The concept that this is just a new configuration of old parts. While that can certainly gain advances, such efforts are usually measured in single digit percentage points.

What Hallowell is claiming is, in some ways, taking a 30 MPG car, reconfiguring what is already there, and coming up with a 120 MPG car.

In both cases there's a certain amount of physics that are involve that simply can't be ignored, and as often as not it's physics that are the limiting factors.

In a car, it's physics that about 97% of the energy created by burning gasoline or other fuel is expended as waste heat energy.

In the case of a heat pump, it's the fact that the air, at any given temperature, retains only so much available latent heat.

In the case of some vehicle designs the waste heat is harnessed to do other kinds of work, and that brings about greater efficiencies.

In heat pumps, reconfiguring the design of the coils and the speed at which the fans operate allows recoving more of the latent heat in the air.

But, at some point, you run out of heat. And when the temperature drops into negative digits, there's really not enough latent heat in the air to be captured by anything other than a monumental shift in technology, not a simple redesign of the existing system.

2. I agree with the above poster who has said that if someone actually did come up with such a design, first I'd bet on one of the major R&D programs being run by one of the biggies -- Trane, Carrier, Lennox, etc. -- who are capitalized out the wazoo.

Granted, that's not a given. Small timers have made MONUMENTAL discoveries that big research labs have missed, but almost always those leaps are in totally new directions, not in tweaking existing stuff.

3. I also agree that it's kind of odd that someone who developed such a leap in design didn't offer his expertise/patents to one of the major players.

Again, though, not a given, others have done that -- the people who founded Gore-Tex fibers (family members) are a perfect example of that.

OK, those are just a few of the major reasons why I'm dubious about the claims made by Hallowell and their product.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of companies out there right now who make similar claims about leaps in technology offering big savings. Two of the most prominent are HydroSil and EdenPure. Those products LOOK good, and the companies seem to have a lot of backing in the terms of facts and figures and chart and graphs and data strings, etc., but once you start digging, you realize that their "tests" are absolute BEST case, most favorable conditions, their numbers just don't quite add up, and in reality, what they are claiming, comes very close to breaking the laws of thermodynamics.

The problem is, while it may seem as if we're pissing on your parade and going out of our way to be condescending, it's the fact that a lot of us have seen stuff like this before, and about 99 times out of 100, it's not what it's claimed to be.

By all means, keep investigating, and keep letting us know what you find out.

Rubbish. It's closer to 60% - if only 3% of the energy in the fuel was available for moving the car then the internal combustion engine would not be a feasible means of transport.

Quote: "And when the temperature drops into negative digits, there's really not enough latent heat in the air to be captured by anything other than a monumental shift in technology, not a simple redesign of the existing system".

To be pedantic, latent heat is the energy in the water vapour in the air that's recovered when it condenses. As for available energy in the air, there's lots left when the temperature is in the negative digits. We're nowhere close to the theoretic maximum efficiency of a heatpump (dictated by the Carnot cycle) which is somewhere around a COP of 7 for the temperatures we're talking about here.

So there's plenty of scope for bring about much greater efficiencies for heatpumps that are optimized for heating. Previously heatpumps were more usual in a climate that requires efficient cooling and so different trade-offs were made. Just to prove it can be done, there are ground source heatpumps that are used in the arctic to extract heat from the frozen tundra - so it can certainly be done.

Paul in Montreal.

As for latent heat, it's actually the heat involved in a change of state such as when water goes to ice (or vice versa). I used the term imprecisely simply to give name to the heat energy available for capture in an air exchange heat pump.

As for extracting usable heat from frozen tundra, I don't doubt it for a moment. Remember, frozen tundra is still FAR warmer than than the air above ground in arctic conditions, so I don't think that's a good example at all.

We're not talking about ground source heat pumps, though. We're talking about air exchange heat pumps, which have to work in a FAR wider range of exchange temperatures. Remember, dig down a few feet just about anywhere on earth and the temperature is pretty much constant.

Once again, though, I remain dubious that simply reconfiguring some existing parts can bring about the kind of jumps in efficiency that the company is claiming.

And if it were possible, I find it even harder to believe that one of the major manufacturers wouldn't have been doing so already in an effort to gain serious traction into markets that are traditionally closed to air exchange heat pumps -- New England, the Dakotas, Minnesota, etc.

Once again, though, I'm not totally discounting this company's claims. I'm just skeptical.

There are still large gains in efficiency possible from the 3-4 COP at the moment to around 6-7 (or even higher for GSHPs - > 10 should be possible).

Paul in Montreal

It gets worse than that. If those IDIOTS are still running that HP to death at 0ºF,
-18ºC and below, what about the wear and tear of all the mode reversals and defrost cycles?

If you’re still hell-bent on buying this Frankenstein, may I suggest having it installed by a company that is likely to be around for a while, perhaps even after Halloween goes bust and DEFINITLY purchasing the longest extended warranty offered. One other thing. If the temp ever dips to anything near 0ºF,
-18ºC, that ‘4.8kW’ ain’t anywhere NEAR enough!

I haven’t seen anywhere in their literature any mention of ARI/ISO/ASHRAE/ACCA/CSA – doesn’t that tell you that this is a junk science, Cold Fusion HP?

Just a thought.

Caveat Emptor

SR

you normally post good info. There's no way they'd include a COP=1 of the heatstrips. A regular ASHP will still have a COP>1 down to -18C.

Once the temperature gets way below freezing, there's less need for defrost cycles as the air is dry at that point - most defrosting is required somewhat above freezing as the air still has a lot of moisture in it.

As for wear and tear, there's no difference between -18C and 0C as far as the reversing valve is concerned so long as it's properly lubricated and within tolerance. It's not difficult to make mechanicals work well down to -40C and below - if it was, much of life in Canada would be next to impossible.

As for the output capacity, yes, that is the issue at very low temperatures - hence my comment about sizing for heating-only. This is the biggest challenge with a conventional "single-speed" heatpump. But with inverter driven DC compressors that are continuously variable in capacity, it's not difficult to overcome. The Asians have been doing it for years with their mini-splits.

What they're doing is certainly not junk science - it's not that different from what the low-temperature GSHP guys are doing (such as Ice Kube Systems) - so long as there's a phase change in the refrigerant, heat can be extracted down to any arbitrarily low temperature. No rocket science required.

Sheesh.

Paul.

The fact that Shaw licensed the technology out to Nyle and then tookk it back when it wasn't being used the best and has joined ith Hallowell to market it is confimation of faith in the product. We are all supposed to be seeking new positive things,especially in light of enegy costs. I asked for feedback from people who had one or had worked with one, not anyone who wanted to dis the thing without first hand knowledge. The arrogance someone alluded to was most certainly not coming from me, but I was most cetainly not happy about some of the references in some of the answers. Lets all learn whatever the truth is, once we discover what it really is. Wouldn't it be great if by being wrong you could be better?

Higher initial outlay for this might not be so bad if one is paying even higher prices for fossil fuels.
Thanks to ALL.

I’m not being a smart ass but if every website delivered what they promised; everyone would be slim, live to a 100, have a full head of hair, be wrinkle free, happy as a clam and wealthy as Bill Gates.

Many who have strong beliefs in saving the planet are similar to those with religious beliefs. There is no conclusive proof for either but if you have faith and it makes you feel better, go for it. I hope Hallowell does have a better mouse trap so please let us know how your investment goes?

If their claims of energy savings are true, we will be seeing it in every technical journal, newspaper, magazine, evening news and Michael Moore movie well before you get your results. Good luck and I hope it works.

Any initiative that attempts to get closer to the theoretical maximum efficiency dictated by the Carnot laws is to be applauded. And in case anyone is confused by the term "theoretical" I mean a hypothesis that has been proved correct and can now be used as a predictor (hence Carnot Law).

Paul in Montreal

p.s. I have no affiliation with Hallowell but am interested in technology that reduces the requirement for fossil fuel usage

Even Ice Kube, which is most likely the heat pump operating in the frozen tundra that you eluded to in a previous post, has a low temperature limit of -10ºF. I have doubts as to Hallowell’s claim of a COP of almost 2 at -30ºF.

I’m not sure how they’re rating the COP of their units, they don’t specify, but 1.95 COP at -30ºF? That makes me wonder; perhaps you can enlighten me?

I agree that Hallowell is not that different from Ice Kube (which represents the other (high) end of spectrum of heat pump technology, and in many ways is virtually in a class of it’s own) in that there is a phase change in the refrigerant. Keep in mind that Ice Kube, as all geothermal HPs, operate within the envelope they are heating (or cooling). There’s a big difference between equipment operating in an environment of about 68ºF and equipment operating at 0ºF and below as Hallowell claims theirs does; that can be a difference of about 100ºF. Machinery operating in temperature extremes will likely require more maintenance than equipment operating at relatively stable room temperatures. As for life here in Canada, when does CAA get most of their calls for cars that won’t start?

Steve

As for a heatpump operating at cold temperatures, so long as there is sufficient lubrication in the compressor (and I'm sure the PEG type synthetic lubricants used can be designed to have the required viscosity at such a low temperature) there shouldn't be a problem. The only question I have at those low temperatures if how the defrost operation works. Perhaps it's not required below a certain temperature due to the dryness of the air. In which case, the reversing valve doesn't have to operate so there is no extra wear and tear.

There's plenty of equipment that works happily at extremes of temperature - it's not difficult to design - it's more in the specification of the correct lubricants. Machines can't "feel" the cold anyway.

As for a COP of 2 at -30F, this is still way less than the Carnot limit of around 5.4. If you read their literature, they did use ARI test procedures to rate their units.

By the way, all refrigeration systems work with a phase change in the refrigerant - the boiling point of R410a is -52C so there's no problem at -30F (-34.4C). As their whitepaper points out, it's the mass-flow of the refrigerant that's an issue a low temperature and it appears that their secondary "booster" compressor addresses that issue. There's certainly no difficulty in running a refrigeration circuit at that temperature with conventional refrigerants.

Paul.

Evaporators at very cold temperatures are used in high vacuum systems to remove residual gases.
Look up 'cryopumps'.
The gases freeze onto the evaporator.
Large systems that must run for long periods provide a way to isolate the condensing surface from the system, then boil off the trapped gas.
A second pump is operated while the first is out of the system.

This is not a very practical option for a heat pump sitting in ambient outside air though.

17 F outside air: 2.45 COP, 111 indoor air temp
10 F outside air: 2.35 COP, 108 indoor air temp
0 F outside air: 2.21 COP, 102 indoor air temp
-15F outside air: 2.06 COP, 99 indoor air temp.

The above temps are without the 5 kw heat strip which adds another 15 degrees according to their literature.

I have a phone call into Hallowell for pricing.

"The technology scares the crap out of most Geo Thermal guys…"

Dream on!

SR

He couldn't give a firm price for Maryland but estimates $13,000 for a 3-ton drop-in system (no major ductwork or major labor).

They are coming out with new models for 2008 that meet the criteria for the US Federal Tax Credit for air source heat pumps of 15 SEER, 13 EER, and 9 HSPF. Currently, the 3 ton unit is 14 SEER, 12.3 EER, and 9.6 HSPF.

I thought the 5-year parts warranty on the Hallowell was a little weak.

I can see this for Canada or for a climate where there are long bitter winters. This technology, along with Nordyne's variable speed IQ drives, should be the next leap in technology.

Until then, I'll stick with my new Goodman heat pump. I could buy and install 3 of my current heat pumps for the price of a Hallowell.

Personally, and I’ve been there before, once I’m anywhere NEAR $13k – I’m going the rest of the way and installing geothermal – even without grants! I don’t want ANY noisy, unsightly electro-mechanical boxes outside exposed to the extremes of the weather.

But that’s just me.

SR

You can buy a lot of electricity for the extra $$ the are charging.

Then of course there are the issues of the environment and national security, not to mention resale value of a home with geothermal. Regarding resale value, we’ve had an independent, professional energy audit done on our home that indicates it’s one of the most energy efficient in the country. I’m betting that verifiable energy efficiency pays back a premium when it’s time to cash out.

SR

Building the home as tight as possible, by using the most efficient windows and doors, and not having a thermal bridge in your exterior walls will go much further to saving energy and money then any other efforts.

I frequently look at high end, custom built homes and it’s amazing how much these builders don’t know, (or don’t care). Last month I saw a multimillion dollar home being built with the most expensive and most energy efficient natural gas fired heating and cooling systems. The walls were all 2x6 wood construction with a hand made brick exterior. The windows were the most expensive true divided light windows on the market but those true divided light windows are far less energy efficient. These windows were chosen for the appearance and not energy efficiency. You can spend all you want on the walls and insulation but putting a huge hole in those walls and placing inefficient windows and doors in those holes is defeating the purpose.

I saw were the plans called for batt insulation, but these homeowners could have easily afforded closed cell, open cell, or spider insulation. The house wrap was also poorly done and the building envelope was not tied into the roof envelope properly. Even when using, 2x6 wood framing and insulating those cavities, the wood acts as a thermal bridge to the outside and greatly reducing the energy efficiently. Not to mention every window in the house, (about 80) was being wired for window candles and the exterior will have elaborate landscape lighting. We all like these bells and whistles but come on?

This home will be far more energy efficient then homes built decades ago but it’s not good enough. If the home was designed properly, they could have reduced the tonnage needed to heat and cool the home by as much as 20% in my estimation. They also would have probably saved 40%-50% on their heating and cooling bills. Geeeesh, it’s not like they didn’t have to money to do it the right way.

Worry about the building envelope first then the rest is downhill. Properly designed window treatments also go a long way.

It has to be made very painful to build commercially, industrially, institutionally, or residentially in a fashion or manner that does not incorporate current best practices of energy efficiency in construction and design. Energy efficiency is a crucial environmental as well as national and international security issue. Besides, it can be beneficial to everyone’s financial bottom line. Immediate energy savings will ultimately more than make up for any incremental increase in first costs by building to the highest standard.

SR

I called them but they still had no dealers in Virginia. Did you have any luck finding a dealer that will install it?

I'm not normally an early adopter, but the technology seems straight forward. But the real attraction is the discharge air temperature in the heat mode.

Larry

I then called our guy here and he did indeed do just what the Hallowell guy said he would do, that is try to steer me to standard equipment. He also apparently thought, as so many do, that I am 1) a stupid woman, 2) an uneducated stupid woman 3) haven't done any homework or research on the thing BEFORE calling Hallowell and was therefore being duped by the snakeoil salesman at Hallowell. It took a long conversation before I could convince him to proceed to look at the stuff that I have found copious volumes on the internet from all kinds of sources beyond Hallowell and to come and take a look at our house to see our system and see what new tubing etc woud be necessary to change over to any new refrigerant system. Theoretically the duct work should be fine since they were the ones that installed it. More on that later. I will see what he says and then procees to call a couple of others to get three to see how they vary. According to the Hallowell guy, the cost of the unit to the dealers would be the same, so any variance in cost would be whatever any respective contractor charges as their "price" and that can vary at lot, even thoug you wouldn't think so unless, as we all know, some people are just out to make a killing. I'll post as I find out more.

The obviuos thing is that, presuming the unit works as stated and all test seem to bear that out, it would be of more benefit to those in colder climates than Virginia. However, with our situation with the cost and volume of the propane for our hydronic heat, the relative cheapness of electricity here, the age of our AC and heating system and water heater, any of which could go at any time, coupled with the cost savings of ANY modern day heat pumps which is way above even modern AC's, it seems like a really viable possibilty that must be explored. It just irks me so that people have tunnel vision and don't want to explore new things. I know I would pay more, but how much more and how long to recoup in OUR situation is the key.Then we get into the going greener thing, which is valid these days too.

So I would suggest that you contact several people where you are and talk to them and have them call Hallowell and talk to Randy and see what you can uncover. When the thing goes public big time for residential soon, it will be a different story.

- This is the first time that I read that you had propane heat. Propane moves with the price of natural gas and, to some extent, fuel oil. I don't have to tell you that propane is the most expensive fuel for heat.

"I know I would pay more, but how much more and how long to recoup in OUR situation is the key."

- The balance point (the outside temperature at which an air source heat pump can no longer supply enough heat and supplimental heat is needed) depends on house construction, insulation, heat pump capacity, compressor age, etc. Assuming a balance point of 32 degrees, any savings in electric costs from using the Hallowell versus an typical air source heat pump with back-up has to be computed for the number of heating hours below the balance point of 32 degrees. How many heating hours below 32 degrees are in the Virginia winter? Not many as compared to the Northeast or Canada.

I am trying to be realistic here, not a pessimist. With your moderate Virginia winters, you will not, in your lifetime, save enough money in electricity to cover the additional costs of the Hallowell. The Hallowell may be great for the next owner of your home (I say the same for Geo - sorry, Steve), but it won't save you any operating $$ that a typical air source heat pump won't save you.

I came across a link to the Hallowell system nearly 9 months ago and immediately sent an email describing much of what I said above. I was soon contacted by Duane Hallowell (CEO) with whom I spent over an hour on the phone! Over the next few months I was markedly unsuccessful in convincing local HVAC contractors to undertake the installation of the Hallowell system, but I eventually found someone toward the end of summer.

The system was delivered at the beginning of November and operational shortly thereafter. Due to the integration of the previous HP with the solar system, it was not a "plug and play" installation, however it did go relatively smoothly. The indoor air handling unit is manufactured by York; the outdoor unit contains proprietary circuitry and control algorithms for operation of the system. The hardware cost was significantly less than the numbers I have seen quoted on this site; I do not yet know the installation charges as I am currently on travel. My experience thus far indicates that the system performs "as advertised" and while I have not yet been able to compare consumption data with previous years, stay tuned.

In scanning the various posts, I did not see where anyone identified David Shaw (who holds the patent for the ACHP) as a retired Carrier engineer who started working with Nyle prior to moving the patent to Hallowell for reasons noted elsewhere (see http://www.construction.com/NewsCenter/TechnologyCenter/Headlines/archive/2006/AR_0306.asp). I would also note that trials of the technology have (and are) being carried out by a College in eastern WA (see http://www.chelanpud.org/all-climate-heat-pump.html). I would note that David Shaw has thought about the short comings of the conventional HP (email for material). The paper was presented in 1984, possibly prior to his tenure at Carrier. Finally, I note that the Bonneville Power Administration has also evaluated the system for use in the northwest (see www.aceee.org/conf/06et/TP1-1_HadleyHallowell.pdf ).

- I would be interested in your installed price. What was the split between equipment and installation?

What kind of heat pump did you have before the Hallowell?

What state (Zone 5) do you live in? You have had the unit for less than a month - installed November?

10 cents/kw-hr is not that bad. Maryland is 13 cents delivered.

Our houses are the same size. You have 2x the number of heating degree days than I have in Baltimore. I'm thinking that your electric bills can get pretty steep.

No wood stove or pellet stove?

Great info on this post.

We live in northern UT at an elevation of 4500 feet. Had a Jøtul woodstove until Feb 2007; my wife was not fond of the frequent chimney fires we experienced. Installed a pellet stove instead. We have seen -20F but not for a long time; last winter we got down to -5F on several occasions.

Final cost not yet available and yes, it was installed earlier this month.

Best of luck with the new unit. Keep us updated please.

Take care.

The people at Hallowell have been just wonderful to help a lowly homeowner! I have done so much research into this and have been so smitten with it only to have so many here disagree......
You might want to post your original response on the hvac-talk.com site too, under residential because there are as many or more people, both pros and homeowners such as myself who are writing about it there. Just look for the title all climate heat pumps and join the fray! Thanks again and waiting eagerly for a new chapter.
greengirl

Be happy to go into more detail but would prefer to do so "offline." If that works for you, pls send email to: ftb (@) cc (dot) usu (dot) edu

NoUT

I have no connection to Hallowell and their system was the optimal solution to my particular situation. The lowest temperature during the 30 days referenced here was 7°F.

NoUT

What was the installed price of the Acadia?

Was it a "drop-in" install? How much ductwork was involved with the install?

Best to you.

Almost anything new should beat the pants off a 30 year old unit.

brickeye: I would remind you of the nature of this thread (new heat pumps for cold temperatures) and suggest that most homeowners do not update their HVAC systems until a failure requires doing so. In point of fact I had a SEER 13 outdoor unit running for 3 years and the consumption rate I quoted is 50% of the average consumption during those 3 years. This speaks to your "beat the pants off" theory.

It seems to me that three questions remain: (1) How well do the Hallowell heat pumps handle frost build-up on the outside evaporator coil? This is critical in a wet climate, and can have a big effect on seasonal COP. (2) How stable is Hallowell? Evidently they are not a publicly traded company, and rapid growth can be hard on a small company with inadequate capital. (3) How reliable are their heat pumps in the long (10-year plus) run. As for capital costs, they appear to be not all that far from the conventional combination of a gas furnace and a central air conditioner.

In any case I will give them serious consideration when my current heating/cooling system dies. And, if they were publicly traded, I’d consider buying their stock.

"The ratio of the cost of electric resistive heat to the cost of gas heat is thus 1.74:1.00, which means that a heat pump with a seasonal coefficient of performance greater than 1.74 will cost me less to operate than a gas furnace"

- I'm not sure how a "seasonal COP" is calculated. My new 3 ton Goodman has a COP of 1.84 at 0F outside, but I'll still need aux electric heat in addition to the heat pump as the balance point of my home is about 20F or so.

The question for you in regards to the Acadia is "what is the balance point of the house and how many hours are the outdoor temps below that balance point?" This is where the Acadia will save a homeowner money by being able to run a heat pump below the balance point without aux electric or gas. The balance point is based on many variables including house design, insulation, ductwork, outdoor temp, indoor setpoint temp, heat pump btu capacity at cold temps, etc.

Using your numbers to calculate the cost of 1 million btus:
Gas at $1.59 per therm and 80% efficient:
(1,000,000 btu / 103,000 btu per therm)($1.59 per therm)/.8 = $19.30 for 1 million btu.

Straight electric at $.118 per kw-hr total delivered price:
(1,000,000 btu / 3413 btu per kw-hr)($.118 per kw-hr)/1 = $34.57 for 1 million btu.

Heat pump at $.118 kw-hr, COP = 2.82 at 25F (COP at 25F is from my Goodman tech info)
(1,000,000 btu / 3413 btu per kw-hr)($.118 per kw-hr)/2.82 = $12.26 for 1 million btu.

Although cheaper to run, the heat pump will see a lot of wear and tear because it will be operating often. It may have to be replaced every 10 years while a gas furnace may get 20+ years.

Take care.

In heating, EER is highly dependent upon the outside temperature. "Seasonal" EER (SEER) is an attempt to average EER over climate variability. For example, if the average January-February temperature in Boston is zero Celsius, the normal range might be -5 to +5 and the extreme range -15 to +15. The SEER is the EER averaged over these conditions. This isn't easy to do unless you have a database of typical hourly winter temperatures. And, in any case, manufacturers' SEER values are based on steady-state EER values, and do not correct for start-up/shut-down losses in real-life operation, nor for the effects of ice build-up on the outside heat exchanger. This is why I wouldn't take manufacturers' data too seriously, and would prefer to hear from actual users in climates similar to those here in the Boston area.

2. The concept is a variation of existing technology. said technology has been in use awhile.

3. The website is... a "commercial" designed to sell a product. As such it will always frame the product in the best light possible.

4. If you find an installer and have to convince him that this is the system that would best suit your needs, think twice. Find an installer that is on board with this unit and it's application. If you can't - consider why that might be.

Perhaps he's unsure of its benefit to you.
Perhaps he's unsure of his abilities relative to the install.
Perhaps he doesn't want to be part of an install that you will ultimately regret. In my own business occasionally someone will want us to produce a product that we by nature
of experience know will not satisfy the client. If the client will not listen to us because they believe they're right; this can be problematic. Often we can educate the client before they spend a great deal of money on a bad venture. Your local HVAC guys may be trying to do exactly that.
I understand your enthusiasm for this but realize that when people in trades get excited about a product and its use; then you as a consumer can generally have a higher confidence level in the outcome.
Clearly you're not stupid, uneducated, etc. But that being said; don't let yourself be found as "unwise".
-br

- Outstanding advice.

In response to Peteroff, I can make the following observations: frost buildup on the coils is a non-issue; that said, my problem has been the by-product of the defrost cycle. Most of the winter I had a 6" block of ice under and around the outdoor unit. The installer ignored the manufacturer recommendations regarding installation height above the slab and I fought with reducing the ice most of the winter. This will be rectified by increasing the height of the supports and installing self-regulating heating cable. Note that the labor costs were roughly 1/3 of the total cost.

I did experience a failure of one or more of the temperature sensors in the outdoor unit. Hallowell sent replacement sensors (new design) and a new control board, which upgraded the system with their latest control algorithms (yes, there is a CPU on the control board). The parts were sent from Bangor via next day air and I was able to get assistance on the weekend (from the CEO no less) in addressing a minor restart issue.

My previous posts discuss our climatic regime - dry, high altitude - and house configuration. Based on data acquired since 1978, the current winter has been one of the colder winters over the past 3 decades. With the exception of the sensor failure noted previously, the Hallowell Acadia has performed spectacularly and I can highly recommend the technology that Hallowell have developed.

I hope this helps others that are considering the Hallowell systems and I would be interested in learning of the experiences of other consumers using the Acadia or addressing other aspects of operation/performance.

I'm also glad to hear that frost build-up on the outside coil is no problem, but your difficulties with freezing drip suggest this would be even worse in a wetter climate. Still, I'm pleased to see that performance is not adversely affected by freezing, at least in your dry region.

What do you pay for electricity during the winter vs. summer months?

Have you considered a geothermal HP? Up front cost would be high but so would long term satisfaction, operating costs and resale value.

SR

Is there a lot of labor involved in the install?

I live in the Pocatello ID area and am looking into the Acadia heat pump as well. I would like the opportunity to discuss your experience with the equipment and the installer you used. I know winters in Logan can be quite treacherous from my time there in college and believe if you are happy with your equipment it would work well here too. Would you please send me an email at kmecham@gmail.com so I can ask you some more specific questions? Thanks!

Let me first say that this thread has been an excellent read! It's great to see some friendly differences between folks who like different technologies.

I'm building a house in southern NH and will be moving in late May. The house originally came with a high efficiency propane FHA furnace.

Well, my current house (also in southern NH) also has a high efficency FHA furnace and it costs a fortune to run. I currently heat 3,100 sq' (2 zones) @ $2.96/gallon of propane. I calculated 2 heating seasons ago that I used 1,100 gallons of propane. This past season has been a bit less painful as I supplemented our heat with a pellet stove. I ended up saving about $500 for the season in fuel costs, but I have to say lugging those bags of pellets up and down my cellar steps and dealing with the maintenance of cleaning the stove has not been fun.

So back to the new house. I decided I didn't want to deal with propane for heating, nor another pellet stove, again so I had our builder look into geothermal for me. The quote for that (which would include a cut for the builder) came back at just under $40k for a system where they dig trenches in the yard and bury loops. I believe it was called a closed loop system. The builder then suggested the Hallowell Acadia. After digging around on the internet to get some information, I decided to go with it for the cost of $13,000 over the high efficiency FHA propane system. The unit I was quoted on is the 46C unit and includes the installation, air handler and additional supplemental electric heat. I was OK with that cost since it will also provide central A/C, which I was going to install after we moved in.

I'm very excited to experience the Acadia and looking forward to cheaper heating costs. Also, I met the VP of Hallowell sales at a local housing convention in Boston last month and got to see the unit in person. I was even more excited after that!

If you dont mind me asking, what was the total cost of the Acadia if it was $13k more than the propane furnace?

I think you should do well with this unit in your NH winter climate. Keeping the outdoor unit free from deep snow is a must.

Good luck.

I'm not sure what the total cost comes to since the propane furnace system was included in the overall house price. I should say that the Hallowell unit is the 42C, not 46C. Typo on my part.

We just got through a brutal winter here (2nd most snow ever on record), but I'm looking forward to next winter to see how the unit performs.

We're scheduled to close on the house on May 16, so the unit should be going in any day now. The duct work is being installed in the basement now. I'll plan on taking photos and posting them here if folks are interested?

I should also say that the folks at Hallowell have been great. They volunteered to have one of their engineers come down from Bangor, ME to supervise the unit install for free since there haven't been many installed in my area.

Also, if you don’t mind saying, who is installing your system?

I figure the propane system costs about $5-6k or so. That would make my actual cost for the Acadia about $18-19k. Based on the quotes you received, I'm happy with that. I'll be curious to see what it costs to heat my home next winter. Our house is going to be energy star, so hopefully that will help with the utility costs as well. My long term plan is to have some PV panels installed on the roof so I can "get off the grid" entirely. Unfortunately NH doesn't have the best rebate programs for solar panels at this time :-(

The house is being built by Adamyk Homes. I'm not sure who the HVAC contractor is. Although he has installed several systems in the area according to the builder.

We're building a house in Fairfield County, CT, where costs are extremely high. We have actually stopped the progress on our construction to figure out what to do for HVAC, because the 93k cost of geothermal was too much given some cost over-runs we've had (that subject is for another post!). We are seriously considering the Hallowell Acadia but no one around here has it or has installed it that we know of. We have 3 installers willing to do it and we have gotten one quote in for 53k which includes an ERV unit. It is a 4630 sq ft space with another 1200 sq ft heated and cooled in an attic studio. The quote is for a 9 ton system. We should get the other quotes soon.
Dsilvest, what is the size of your house you are building? Does this cost sound high (everything is here, but sometimes contractors just throw high numbers at you to see if they'll stick! It is tiring...).

We were going to do blown in foam insulation, but the 37k quote for that was not going to work; we are looking at a combination of cellulose applications which initially quoted at 26k, but after protests, he changed and removed some of the "extras" and now it's 16k or so.

We are planning on this being an Energy Star house as well. I have learned a lot from reading this post, and would appreciate any advice that could be shared about the Hallowell system, costs for our situation, etc., recommendations for install since it will be someone who hasn't done one, etc.

Nout, I tried to email you today as well, and hopefully you will get it.

Greengirl, I know how you feel - I'm primarily in charge of our construction (with our project manager) and found out about Hallowell by my own research. I have some interesting reactions with all the contractors I have dealt with - mostly respectful up front, but clearly assuming I know nothing, and definitely ignoring my upfront mention of severe budget issues with most of the quotes that come in.

If anyone is in CT with this system I would love to hear from you. We have not had good communication with Hallowell yet; they didn't answer my husband's email, but project manager has talked to them a bit. They won't reveal any pricing, but one HVAC guy said the cost to him is 11k per unit - does anyone know if this is correct?

Thanks for your assistance/advice!

We have 3 companies here who are eager to install. One is well known by my project manager but he usually only installs the best hydro aire systems; one is new to us and usually installs the Bryant Evolution heat pump sytem (which needs propane back-up), but they've installed one Hallowell but it hasn't been turned on yet; and then there is a guy who was familiar with Hallowell but hasn't installed one yet, and he does some geothermal. They are probably all competent and a lot of it will come down to cost. I'll let you know how it goes here in CT.

Our house is an approximately 3,600 sq' 2-story colonial with 3 heating/cooling zones. We'll have the 4-ton unit, which was $13,500 ABOVE the standard 90%+ efficiency propane furnace that we upgraded. Also, we're going with a Blown-In-Blanket (BIBS) insulation system that cost $7,000 ABOVE the standard fiberglass batts. Based on your sq', it sounds like you're probably looking at 3 units, which would put your quote in line with what I'm paying for one (the $13,500 + whatever the standard propane unit costs).

I'm not familiar with the cost of the spray foam insulation, but from what I understand it's better and more expensive than BIBS.

My costs were hard to swallow at first, but when you're not only saving on monthly utility bills, but also helping the environment, it's a little easier to swallow.

We're closing on our new house in the next 2-3 weeks. The Acadia is not installed yet, but should be any day now. I'm looking forward to it!

We're paying about twice the cost of fiberglass for upgraded cellulose insulation, but approx. half of what foam would have been.

We are still to price solar hot water and hoping it is a possibility.

Good luck with yours, and let us know how it is, as will I.

Wow. That's $15k per unit without the add-ons.

I'd get a 10 year parts and labor warranty for that amount of $$.

Good kuck.

After starting this well- lived thread, I can report that our Hallowell Acadia is IN now and cooling like a charm with 100 degree heat that hit just as it was finished! We did wait, as those who have kept up have read, for the 2008 model upgrade with the new logic board and the different compressors. (They were a result of Bristol discontinuing the ones that Hallowell was using and Hallowell choosing to use differnt ones before being forced to.)

Of course the main issue from the beginning was the heating side, but it will be months before we know that answer. Right now I'm just grateful to have cool and it be as good at it as the AC we had. Comparison costs for that part will take a month to determine but it is a given that a new unit of whatever willbe more cost effective than a 16 year old one.....

Ours wound up at the quoted $11, 600. It was a replacement but with just a bit of new wiring and duct modification where the air handler sat. It was and is only one zone, even though with a two story house we could have benefittedf rom two, that's not the set up we had and couldn't go that far with costs to convert!

It was a very staight forward replacement but there were two issues that I found online that I had to insist on and actually call Hallowell and have them tell the conrtactor that it HAD to be done the way stated. One was that the unit has to be up on legs of some height- not any higher than one might have for 3-4 inches of snow- even if there is not much snow in your area. The unit has ventilation holes in the bottom that must both drain AND ventilate. The other issue is that the filter dryer MUST be inside be next to the air handler and insulated, NOT outside like they do them everywhere here.That one took a while to get across and finally the phone call to Hallowell. Contractors know what they are used to and see no reason for changes unless forced to. It worked out fine in the end but if I hadn't been vigilant and insisted, they would not have done it!

So, at this point everything has worked according to Hoyle. We are glad we did it and I will report honestly how it does once we have winter. And of course every winter will not be the same..... I will watch for others to report their reactions to their units as more people acquire them! Please ask any questions that you might have and I will try to answer them!
Green girl

I am also looking into the Hallowell sysem. Can you share what ton/model system was installed in your house, and did the install include any ductwork modifications? Did it include removal of the old equipment? It would be good to know what work was included in the price you paid, so I have an idea where my estimate falls in relation to your job.

Thanks!

- Chris

We live in Oxford CT and are considering the Hallowell system. We have a 3200 square foot well-insulated house and are considering a 4 ton unit.

What HVAC contractor did you use and were you satisfied with their work? If anyone else knows of any reputable contractors in Southern CT please join in.

Thank you.

Just wanted to let folks know that we closed on our new house and the Hallowell unit has been running like a charm. We have the 36C and 3 zones to cover a total of ~3,500 sq'. It cools quite nicely and is actually very quiet compared to our old Rheem central A/C unit. I'm looking forward to seeing how it performs this winter!

The big test will be coming shortly when the temps drop consistently below freezing outside. We have yet to receive our first electric bill, but I'll post the #s as soon as we get it for this past month.

I’ll venture a guess that when your vent temp reaches 125°F, your backup heat strips are ‘on’; if so, kiss your savings good-bye! You can verify this, failing T-stat indication, by watching the rotational spin on your utility meter disk when 2nd stage is demanded.

Please (someone/anyone) correct me if I’m wrong.

SR

There are no indicators for the W1 call for resistance heat. It is a 2nd stage call below 10 deg and used during defrost and emergency shut downs. The W2 is indicated by a 3rd stage call shown by the "+2" blinking. "+2" solid is a 2nd stage from the thermostat. 3rd stage is energized when the temperature falls 3 degrees away from the set point. W1 and W2 calls are completely separate during normal operation. They are 1st and 2nd stage respectively in emergency mode.

When power is lost, there is a potential of the refrigerant mixing with the oil and allowing excessive wear to the compressor. After a power loss, we recommend the thermostat be put into emergency mode to allow the crankcase heaters to warm the oil and remove liquid refrigerant. If the homeowner is not present, the unit can be operated without concern. We have done multiple tests in an attempt to have compressor failure and it did not occur. This is a recommendation to insure a long life of the equipment. There is not an automatic function as the power is off and our control de-energized not allowing a timer to run.

We are confident that this will not be an issue for you. Once again, this is a recommendation to insure a long life of the equipment. Please feel free to contact us with any further questions/concerns you may have.

Mark C. Risinger

Technical Support Specialist

Hallowell International LLC

110 Hildreth St.

Bangor, ME 04401

(207)990-5600 or 1-877-322-2342

Fax(207)990-5602

I'm sure when I saw 120 degrees I was in m2: second stage compressor with no resistance heat. It makes a little more sense now!

SR

One item I forgot to mention. Our local power supplier (PSNH) offers what they call a HeatSmart program. It works like this - if you have electric heat (which the Acadia is) and have an approved backup heat source (like a wood or pellet stove), you qualify for a reduced electricity rate to run your heating system (includes the Acadia unit, the blower and the resistance heat). In exchange for the reduced rate (which they say is about a 24% savings), they can shut off your electricity to your system during peak usage for a period of 4 hours. This has only happened a couple dozen times over the last several years. The bonus is that the Acadia also acts as central A/C in the summer, so that usage is discounted as well. Here's a link with more info:

http://www.psnh.com/Energy/Home_Efficiency/HEATSMART.asp

- Not a tech. My air source heat pump puts out 101F air at 50F ambient, which drops to 91F air at 25F ambient. With the 15kw aux strips energized, I get >125F from the registers.

Take care.

Thanks Gary, that’s about what I expected.

Re: cpeters99

If I may impose on you, for the sake of experimentation, to please turn off the breaker for the backup and to repeat the temperature measurement again at the plenum and at the register furthest away from the HP.

Thanks,

SR

How do you find the noise level compared to older model heat pumps. Mine is about 9 years old now and it's so loud it wakes me up every time it cycles on and off.

BTW, we also live in Virginia. We are in the Blue Ridge mountains at about 2700 feet so it is about 15 degrees cooler than the Piedmont sections of Virginia.

Thanks for any comments you may have. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has installed one of these. Nita

I would liken the outdoor compressor sound to that of a refrigerator in the house. There's a slightly louder noise when the compressor kicks on, but then it quiets down after a couple of seconds. Our unit is outside the back of the house and I can hear it when we're inside on the 1st floor. It's not loud enough to wake me up, though. I can barely hear it on the 2nd floor. I live in NH, so we've had some cold weather lately. I can tell you the unit heats the house nicely.

Greengirl is right - the air handler is almost silent. I had to look at the system lights to verify it was on!

I just got my November electricity bill and thought I would share the change I've seen. My November 2007 bill, which was when I had a traditional propane FHA furnace for heat, was $102. My November 2008 bill, using the Acadia, was $184. Our non-HVAC electricity usage has remained the same. Therefore, I can assume it basically cost me $82 to heat my 3,500 sq' home using the Acadia from late October through late November. My propane cost was zero :-)

Still sounds like a lot to me. Where are you located, what do you pay per kWh?

SR

I'm not sure of our exact electricity rate - I'll need to check my bill tonight. We live in southern NH and actually had some snow flurries yesterday :-(

In our last house, which was built in 2004 and is in the same town we are now, we had propane FHA heat. In one season I calculated that we used 1,100 gallons of propane. At minimum $3/gallon, that's $3,300 for the heating season. Take away a bit for hot water and dryer use and I figured we spent about $450-$500/month (Oct through March) for home heating. I'm still curious to see how the Acadia performs in the deep winter, but so far so good.

Not sure I understand why this will be solution. I keep bringing up the fact that the EWC zone panel for zone 1 does not have COM wire attached but zone 2 does. I've not received a explanation on whether this is okay or not.

As you can tell by the tone of this I'm not very confident. I've been back on oil for over two weeks which I can run separately. Any help you can provide would be appreciated.

Our house has 3 zones and we have the smaller Acadia unit (36C I believe). I think our first zone is about 1700 sq', 2nd zone is 1300 and 3rd zone is 500. Our HVAC guy just came here yesterday actually to adjust the thermostats. We found that when all 3 zones were on, the thermostats would get confused and the "Call for Service" indicator would light up on all 3. Then the system would run on just the resistance heat ($$) until all 3 zones hit their temp setting and shut off. Then the Call for Service indicator would turn off.

After speaking with Hallowell, the problem is with the model of the White Rodgers thermostats we have. The HVAC guy had to come back and reconfigure them to HP1 and swap a couple of leads. So far, the issue has not come back.

Does anyone know what the display indicators are on the thermostat and what they mean. The documenation and Hallowell web site does not provide this information.

Such as "Stage 1".

Just as a side note I see that dsilvest mentioned he had problem with thermostat. But I was wondering what the HP1 setting is. I'm only aware of HP2.

My hallowell documentation had an insert that describes what each of the thermostat settings mean. I believe HP1 was for a single stage heat pump and HP2 is for multi-stage. Our HVAC guy had to set our thermostats to HP1 (per direction of Norm from Hallowell) and swap some leads. So far the issue has not returned.

Re: hot water - take a look at Rinnai tankless units. We've used one for 4 years now and are very happy.

How can a multistage heat pump work at HP 1??? Although I would imagine if Norm says so, it is. Did you talk to HIM at first,or someone else, and that might be why it took so long to resolve???

The multi-stage HP works at HP1 because of the lead-swap that was done. All the changes were at Norm's direction. He said White Rodgers had done something incorrectly based on Hallowell's requirements and that this switch corrects the issue. Norm really does know his stuff.

For the thermostat settings, see page 21 on the below link:

http://www.loraxec.com/media/Acadia_-_Install_Manual_-_May_12_2008.pdf

thanks everyone
jp

I think you're making a great decision. I've had good luck with the unit so far. I don't think their marketing efforts have been very strong, and that's probably why you haven't heard much about them. I do think their stepping it up a bit as I've seen references to Hallowell in my last 2 This Old House magazines.

-Dave

For $8k difference I think your decision not to go geothermal is seriously flawed. First of all the geothermal HP will easily last twice as long, the ground loop will last virtually forever. Secondly, when it comes time to cash out and sell you’ll get a premium for your property with a geothermal installation. Who will have heard of or care about a (then) old Acadia conventional air-source HP?

IMO

SR

thanks everyone
jp

"A recent study by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency showed that geoexchange systems generally have the lowest life-cycle cost of all systems available today. The study also shows that geoexchange systems have the lowest impact on our environment. And consumers rank their comfort and satisfaction with geoexchange systems higher than all others. While a higher initial investment is required, the investment is paid back through low energy bills (enhancing resale value), excellent family safety, and real comfort."

Source: 2003 GeoExchange Heat Pump Consortium http://www.geoexchange.org/about/compare.htm

The correct link today would be:

http://www.geoexchange.org/geothermal/publications/cat_view/62-fact-sheets.html

Then download ‘Comparing Heating Systems’ & ‘GeoExchange Fascinating Facts’

"Geothermal heat pump systems, also known as "geoexchange," are the most energy-efficient, environmentally clean, and cost-effective space conditioning systems available, according to the Environmental Protection Agency."1

1Environmental Protection Agency, ‘Space Conditioning: The Next Frontier’, Office of Air and Radiation, 430-R-93-004 (4/93)

(If you want chapter & verse)

BTW: Where did you see hate? Any dissenting opinion is ‘hate’? (Typical liberal thinking!)

SR

I still don't see anything specific comparing geo to cold climate heat pumps, nor do I see actual numbers. Sure it could be "the most energy-efficient", but it's not saying whether it's 100% better or .1% better.

Ductless Split Systems will be the real deal sooner or later.
several companies have a wall mount that looks like a wall picture mounted on the wall. Check it out.
(1)No temperature loss in ducts.
(2)100 percent Zone Control
(3)No to little Noise
(4)requires little or no additional Electrical.
(5)If one breaks down you are covered by other zones.
(6)Buy one per year to avoid major cash lay out.
(7) Install yourself and save.
(8)Remote Control
(9)Very reliable
(10)only requires a two inch hole in the wall.
(11)No I dont sell them I am retired from the trade after 40 years in the trade

Googe,
Ductless certainly have the application here in the US however keep in mind in Europe, (been there 5 times), the cooling hours are limited and people are generally more tolerant of temps there because of their energy saving mindset (Electric costs are 2-4X more than ours)

The picture looking units (art cool) were originally introduced by the LG group, who are Korean, nowhere near Europe.

"Install yourself and save"
What consumer today holds EPA certification, has gauges, freon, evacuation pump, brazing torch and recovery machine on hand? Little or no electric? what supplies outdoor unit with 220V?

Thanks for the update. Everybody’s air-source heat pump can still work at -10°C in Canada. Please give us the update at -25°C (-13°F). Please include whether the backup is on or not. Then I could be impressed…

BTW: I’m glad it’s working well, that you’re satisfied, that you’re saving $2k/yr. and have reduced your carbon emissions.

If you can satisfy your stat set point at -25°C - without backup - then I am impressed!

SR

In working with my clients, we wanted to look at the cost/benefits of the systems being compared. These included ground source, two stage air source, Acadia, and oil furnace. The houses were modest, about 2000SF and moderately tight and insulated. Nothing extreme but not too bad after being sealed up.

For the analysis, we used the bin temperature data for our region (Eastern PA) and I computed operational times/cost for each bin. For those interested, the bin data tells how many hours each season the temperature is in a narrow temperature range, typically 5 degrees. In this way, if you know the heat load of the house, and the performance curve of the heat source, you can compute the approximate operational costs and predict when backup heat is needed etc. I've verified the calculations with actual performance where the data have been available, so this is a reality-based evaluation.

One of the huge problems we've had in our climate with heat pumps is convincing the HVAC contractors to actually size the systems correctly for the heating load, rather than the cooling load. Here, we need about twice the heat as cooling, so if you follow convention and size for cooling, you vastly undersize the heating system. This was done historically for single speed heat pumps so that they could properly satisfy the air conditioning requirements. Nowadays, with multi-speed heat pumps, you should size for heating, at least in our climate. That works out very well, as it allows the cooling load to be efficiently dealt with using the first stage compressor, then the heating load can be handled by the first or second stages as required.

For our climate, I've been designing to get as low a balance point as reasonable for the conventional heat pumps. As noted, most HPs were undersized and so they had a balance point of about 40F. At that temperature, most of the winter around here requires the backup heating to be on, making them cost ineffective. This has been the case even with good two stage HPs. So, by pushing the balance point down below 30F, I can get their systems to heat their homes without backup heat for the majority of the heating season. To further increase efficiency, I've promoted staged electric backup. Most HVAC installers just install a 15-20kw heat strip. In fact, if you size right, you can start with 5kw down through the low 20's, then kick on the full heat strip only as needed for cold temperatures. This optimizes the HP energy use considerably.

Doing everything rigorously like this is really key to achieving high efficiency out of a heat pump. The devil's in the details as they say.

All that said, the attractive thing about the Hallowell is that it's designed for the heating load of colder climates. Its first stage cooling is actually half the output of the second stage. This lets you get near optimal output for the cooling season. A conventional, two-stage heat pump has about 30% less cooling than heating, so for cooler climates, you tend to be a bit oversized on the cooling side if you really push the heating output. The Acadia goes one further with the booster compressor, jacking up the heating output further, so getting the details exactly right, like with a conventional 2-stage HP, isn't quite as critical. The unit itself does the switchover as needed and the compressors are capable of handling the heat load to cold temperatures before turning on the electric backup. To me, this is a big advantage of the Acadia vs. a conventional 2-stage HP AND vs. a ground source system.

More on this, as the ground source people will likely holler. In moderate and cold climates, the cooling output from a ground source system (single or two-stage) will VASTLY exceed the cooling load of the house, leading to really poor quality cooling. A single stage ground source system is even worse. If you look at the performance curves, you can verify this. Even stage one of a ground source system, when used at typical ground temperatures, outputs nearly the full output capacity of the ground source system. In a heating dominated zone, even one as mild/hot as the mid Atlantic states, you will find that a ground source system will provide sub-optimal cooling if sized appropriately for the heating loads.

Even if you size conservatively, like I did, for a heating load down to about 20F, the ground source system will still blast out too much cold air for all but the hottest temperatures, assuming that you have a well-insulated home. The Acadia, on the other hand, will provide a much better air conditioning capacity, and a conventional HP will provide decent AC.

The other issue with a ground source system is that even the best installers have to balance operational efficiency with installed cost. In our region, very few go open loop, which is the most efficient configuration, due to maintenance issues. Instead, they go closed loop, vertical boreholes.

I've had a half dozen clients get quoted on this configuration in the last 6 months. For a ground source system, 3-5 tons, the bore drilling cost was in the $12k-$15k range and the ground source system itself cost about the same, depending on model. So the installed cost was typically $25k-$30k for a retrofit application (existing ducts, new variable speed air handler, compressor, and drilling). For these homes, winter projected operational costs were very low, in the $350-$500 range under optimal conditions. Keep in mind that these are approximate costs in the expensive mid-atlantic region. But I've talked to numerous people and this is a very typical installed cost around here.

Now, getting back to my previous comment about balancing install cost with efficiency. Because well drilling has gotten so expensive, they're teaching ground source installers to install less bore hole depth. I attended a ground source workshop recently, given by the leading ground source consultant and college in the region and they were endorsing quite short boreholes, but noting that the seasonal ground temperatures would suffer. For example, while ground source systems are spec'd at about 50F loop temperature, as the season progresses, the ground temperature drops or rises, due to a variety of parameters (water table movement, ground conductivity, system run time etc.) As such, with these shorter ground loops, you have to actually plan for ground temperature of around 32F during the winter and 80F during the summer (again, this is very dependent on the exact system operational parameters). But these are very typical parameters.

For some real-life numbers, I installed temperature probes on all the boreholes in my ground source system, and within the first month of hard winter operation, the ground temperatures dropped below freezing and stayed there for the rest of winter.

So, in REAL LIFE operation, many ground source systems are operating at temperatures that are at or below the outside air temperature, so their COPs drop considerably. Instead of 5 you might get 3 or lower. The one positive thing is the there's no defrost cycle. That's the big win for these systems. You never have to deal with the cold blast every hour when the system goes to defrost like you do with an air source system.

These are the things that ground source advocates either don't want you to know or don't know enough to know themselves. But keep that in mind. If you install a closed loop ground source system with typical loop configurations, your performance will be vastly lower than the numbers may indicate.

So back to air source systems. In this climate, our winter air temperature may vary from 25-40 in Nov-Dec and drop to 15-30 for Jan and feb. Again, you look at the bin temperature data and it tells the temperature distributions through the year.

Comparing a top of the line two stage HP with the Acadia, you find that the conventional air source systems are really efficient! They maintain a high COP. Take a four-ton system running at 30F. The system runs at a COP of almost 3.5! Even at 20F, including defrost cycle derating, the COP is above 3.1. So a modern, two-stage air source heat pump really performs. This is actually much better than the COP of the Acadia, so when I've done my cost analysis, these systems, which around here cost about $10k installed, have operational costs of maybe $750-$850/winter. This includes backup electric heat strip requirements.

As it turns out, in this climate, the Acadia is about the same operational cost, with a quoted install cost of $14k-$16k. As noted, the Acadia has some benefits however. You don't have to be as rigorous about the sizing because it has more stages and is able to pump out the heat without the electric backup. The delivered air temperature is higher than the conventional HP. And the summertime load match is better than any other system.

So, in this climate, when you run the numbers, you find that the air source heat pumps cost $300-$500 more to run per year than a properly installed ground source system for an installed cost of $10-$15k less. The ground source might last 20 years, while the air source is typically rated at 15 years (not 10 like was earlier mentioned). So, if you're looking at pure financial figures and a 10 year time scale, you get:

Ground source, closed loop: ~$30k
Two speed air source: ~$18k
Acadia: ~$22k

Again, this is for a typical mid-Atlantic state. The colder the climate, the more the balance can shift to ground source and Acadia. It also doesn't take into account the comfort issue. Ground source - no defrost, more even heating, oversized cooling. Conventional air source - defrost cycle cold blast, heating drops more with temperature, moderately good cooling. Acadia - not sure about defrost cycle, heating increases with decreased temperature due to booster compressor, excellent cooling.

Sorry to overwhelm with all this information. But this is a topic that I've been analyzing/studying for some time now and I wanted to get it out there for others to share.

STAGE 1+2 (+2 is blinking)

I'm seeing it a lot when the temperature drops. It is about 18 degrees farenheit right now.

Thanks,

I believe your thermostat is saying your 2nd stage compressor is operation. It sounds like you have a slightly different thermostat than I do, but mine blinks "System On +2" when the 2nd stage is on.

Also a note - I had noticed the system was running almost all day over the last couple of days. The set temperature was maintained, but I found it odd. I called Hallowell and they said this was normal and actually preferred since a constant run is less wear and tear on the compressors than a frequent start/stop.

Do you have total kilowatts usage on your last bill?

Yes your thermostat readings are different. You may want to check about the blinking. When mine blinks on the +2 it is using resistance heat.

Also, I have my email address posted. If you would send me email, I can send you all the correspondance I've had with Hallowell. Since you are in New Hampshire we would have lot in common due to same weather temperatures.

Merry Christmas, Jim

Wow. My 3-ton 14 SEER, 9 HSPF, Goodman heat pump was installed last summer for less than $4k. Single speed Copeland scroll compressor. 10 year all-parts warranty on the system. I could get 4 to 7 systems for the prices quoted above. To each his own.

Take care.

good luck!

I hope they get your squared away in short order!

Best of luck,

The charge is 12 pounds of R410A for the system and 10’ of lines + .6 ounces per foot for additional line lengths.

We do not test super heat or sub-cooling on a new Acadia system start-up. We do on any other heat pump or AC system we install. The Acadia system is unique in that it does not come with any refrigerant from the factory, only a nitrogen charge. Per Hallowell instructions (told to me from Duane Hallowell himself), we weigh in the R410A charge according to the manual and start the unit, no further testing is required. Testing super heat and sub-cooling verifies proper charge. We always run these tests on any other system because we do not take for granted that the factory installed the right amount or that some has not leaked out by the time we get the units.

With Acadia systems, we would only test sub-cooling afterwards if we suspected a problem with the refrigerant system.

Does this sound right because they treat me as if this were my fault!

Are there any websites out there that collect monthly utility charges for customers of various heating technologies? I think that before I make a decision to change out my heating system, the first think I want to look at are facts about monthly heating that a number of people are experiencing using the different technologies.