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Carrier Infinity - any way to reduce defrost cost?

Steve
10 years ago

My Carrier Infinity system has been working well for the summer, now it's my first winter. We had what for us was a pretty cold spell, daily highs were 30-35, and lows a tiny bit lower. There was some drizzle as well. So, over those days, I noticed daily usage for heat of around 24 KWh, and, electric heat (the strips) of around 14 KWh. In further investigation, I could see the strips turned on *only* during the defrost cycle, as stage 2 strip heating according to the thermostat. I had adjusted the heat settings to *never* use electric strips, so, presume this means all strip usage was for defrost only. Never saw any ice on the outside unit, so, assume defrost was doing it's thing. The defrost interval is set to "AUTO", whatever AUTO means. It seemed like the defrost was kicking in fairly often, maybe every 30 minutes or so. Does AUTO mean let the dip switch settings determine how often, or, does it mean the system intelligently makes a decision? i.e., if the default the installer set was every 30 minutes, does auto mean check every 30 minutes? The house is very tight, so, loses little heat. I rarely see anything other than low stage for heating.

That seems like a lot of electric usage to simply defrost. So, have been experimenting with different settings, but alas, close to 50 today so no data. No cold spell in sight. So, I am wondering if there are ways to reduce the usage in this scenario. I have tried turning off the use electric heat during defrost setting. This obviously slightly cools the house when defrosting, it falls at most one degree, but of course no resistance heat is used. When defrost is over, sometimes, it goes into high heat pump heating, sometimes, low stage is enough. Surely, this would be cheaper than the previous mode where heat strips ran during defrost under any scenario? One might get a temporary chill I suppose, no big deal to me.

Is there any other way to potentially reduce defrost cost? At 11 cents per KWh, it's not very cheap since it's been $1.50 per day lately just for the defrost cycle.

Comments (43)

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Auto is your best setting but it does not eliminate nuisance and unnecessary defrost calls like EDD.does on Trane and Rudd/Rheem heat pumps.

    Short of cutting off your heat strips there is really nothing you can do. Remember though you will be pumping AC into your home without the air being tempered with the heat strip.

    There was a thread recently discussed and debated about this subject last week. I have attached a link.

    IMO

    Here is a link that might be useful: Carrier Infinity Defrost Method

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Yes, I saw that thread, but, it seems almost entirely devoted to comparing Trane and Carrier, which I couldn't care less about since I have a Carrier. Debating such things is good if you want to buy a unit.

    Pumping in AC is of very minor importance to me during defrost. Just want to make sure it's actually cheaper, which I would think it would be. I don't see how saving strip heat could be a bad thing.

    Maybe it's best for me to change from AUTO to 120 minutes based on what I read there in the pdf file attached to one of those messages? I suppose this gives me some risk of not fully defrosting. Perhaps in the event of an ice storm, I can change it back.

    I don't see how to defrost in low or high stage, perhaps that is not available in my model? The document mentions this based on the User Interface, but I cannot find that setting. Just seems like auto is too often to me. In a dryer cold winter climate, would a cold coil really need to be defrosted necessarily so often?

    What I do not want to do is change some settings that cause bad things to happen, not being an expert by any means!

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Then cut off heat strip at your electric panel. Any good installer would have placed them alone on a separate circuit. Or perhaps you can cut off on defrost calls only. This will affect your inside comfort. You will need them for supplemental and/or emergency heat.

    IMO

  • mike_home
    10 years ago

    What is your location and what are the typical winter lows?

    You could try experimenting starting with 60 minutes and go longer in time if you are not seeing an icing condition. The time interval is supposed to be actual run time. It sounds like the auto setting is not doing a good job.

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Extreme S Oklahoma. I looked back over 5 years, just out of curiosity. There are an average of 6 days per year with high As far as lows, average low in January is 30, average high is 53.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    The fact remains you are going to get defrost calls whether needed or not. The defrost function could be disabled, something though I would not recommend.

    While you didn't appreciate the discussion in the thread regarding Carrier Infinity Defrost versus EDD, there was a link from Carrier on their defrost feature. I am providing the link in case you overlooked it.

    IMO

    Here is a link that might be useful: Carrier Infinity Defrost Control

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Yes, I read that document, and the questions it does not answer I have asked. And those are below. I am hoping for someone who has the system and can tell me where on the thermostat this can be done.

    1. I don't see how to defrost in low or high stage, perhaps that is not available in my model? The document (the one you provided a link to) mentions this based on the User Interface, but I cannot find that setting.

    2. Maybe it's best for me to change from AUTO to 120 minutes based on what I read there in the pdf file attached to one of those messages? I suppose this gives me some risk of not fully defrosting. Perhaps in the event of an ice storm, I can change it back. Is this a viable strategy, and what risk would there be?

    3. Is it actually cheaper to not defrost using the strips, considering the house has to be reheating after doing so.

    4. Is there another way to reduce defrost expense?

    I really had hoped for someone knowledgeable with this system to chime in based on real world experience. I am not a HVAC engineer. Some of the reading gets very technical, and, details are omitted.

  • fsq4cw
    10 years ago

    High or low speed defrost is not user selectable, itâÂÂs built into the program and dependant on outdoor temperature. I would suggest leaving it on âÂÂAutoâ and let it do its thing.

    Do you really think youâÂÂre smarter than the Carrier engineering team? Do you really think they have not fully researched this issue and are uninterested in an energy efficiency advantage as a marketing tool, that you or we can do better? I think not. However, you can experiment by turning âÂÂOffâ your electric element breakers if that will satisfy this âÂÂitchâÂÂ.

    After carefully reading both Carrier and Trane defrost documents I frankly donâÂÂt see a big difference. If there were, it would be reflected in the HSPF rating as in the Greenspeed series, which is due to other factors.

    The ONLY real solution if you donâÂÂt want defrost cycles is to install geothermal.

    IMO

    SR

  • ionized_gw
    10 years ago

    It certainly will be less expensive to cool the house a little during defrost than to use the heat strips to maintain temperature. That way you reheat the house with the heat pump.

  • fsq4cw
    10 years ago

    Re: Ionized

    âÂÂIt certainly will be less expensive to cool the house a little during defrost than to use the heat strips to maintain temperature. That way you reheat the house with the heat pump.âÂÂ

    One might think so. Why then is this not something selectable via the T-stat and let the user decide?

    This is not an attack on your rational statement or a challenge for you to answer, but perhaps somewhat of a rhetorical question.

    SR

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    "Do you really think youâÂÂre smarter than the Carrier engineering team"

    No, but, as an engineer in a different discipline, I have certainly seen that happen. Sometimes, a new way of thinking is a good thing. So, I don't discount such a possibility.

    "One might think so. Why then is this not something selectable via the T-stat and let the user decide"

    I believe I was hoping for someone familiar with this system. This IS an option on the thermostat, which is why I was asking if there were any other options as documented by the pdf file that was linked to earlier which mentions a low and high stage defrost, for example. Someone who might have owned and used the system might know of a trick that I was unable to find in the manual for example.

    In any case, I will answer your question having experimented with this setting. Speaking of no strips during defrost.... The reason it is not a default is you do feel a chill without the strips offsetting the AC mode and cold air coming into the house. So, it's less comfortable, I can see some people, maybe even most people hating it. However, it does avoid the strips, which is a good thing economy wise. What I found was a few times, the strips were still used since recovering from the temp drop made the system think it had to heat faster, so, I saw it once in stage 1 strips. Which would still be better than the stage 2 used during defrost. So, I combined the change with the setting to never use strips for heating mode. So, now, the heat pump sometimes goes into low stage heat, and, sometimes into high stage heat after a defrost, generally low stage seems to handle it. So, yesterday, I used 0 KWh for resistance heat at last, instead of 14KWh or so.

    Since it's rarely cold enough for defrost during daytime hours, the minor inconvenience, virtually zero, is not an issue for me. So, I intend to keep it on this mode now. Hopefully, this might be of use to someone else with this system looking for a similar answer. Yes, it is possible some day I might actually NEED the strips if it ever gets that cold. That remains to be seen with my new pretty tight house if that is possible. If that ever happens, guess I'll have to change that mode temporarily. But once every 5-10 years isn't much of a problem.

    Just because some bright engineer invented and really tried to do their best with something, *never* means there is not a way to improve it. I personally *never* accept that answer as its simply rarely true. For me, that's a very bad way of thinking.

    So, hopefully, this wil benefit someone else looking to reduce their defrost costs.

  • ionized_gw
    10 years ago

    Decisions on what to include in a product are also based on demand and cost of including them.

    I understand sfatula's point of an outsider's ability to think about things differently. Most of the time a new direction is not going to be productive due to the lack of complete knowledge, but sometimes a less constrained mind (or differently-constrained mind) can come up with a creative new way of doing things that will work.

    Frequently, while reading these defrost threads, I have the thought that my heat pumps do not heat with electrical resistance or any other supplemental heat durning defrost because they don't have any. The indoor blowers shut off during defrost.

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Mine do. It is easy to see, I simply go to the status screen and it says defrost, and, electric heating stage 2. So, that's when I started looking into it as I didn't understand why the electric heat. Now I do. So, thats when I started looking into the manual and docs I could find to see what settings there might be, and, low and behind on one of the service screens, the ability to turn it off during defrost.

    Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say, a differently constrained mind. Some would be surprised how many times that proves valuable! Instead of just accepting a product as is at face value, believing they know better in all scenarios.

    If yours do not blow at all during defrost, I wonder what they do with the cold air from running in AC mode? Perhaps they just vent it, which wouldn't be bad I suppose. If that's what they do, sort of makes sense.

  • ionized_gw
    10 years ago

    At least your status screen is transmitting a good amount of information.

    I have mini-splits with 7 wall-mounted indoor units and three outdoor units. At defrost time, blower stops and the horizontal vanes close up. One of these days, I'll measure the coil temp with my IR thermometer. I wonder if heat is pulled from indoor units that are not turned on for the defrost and it it is not, why not. It would probably make defrost go faster.

    In some of the VRF systems, they might program them to pull heat from the water heater if that is not calling for heat at that moment.

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Mine is a simple 2 zone system. No water, etc. So, really, now that I mentioned it, I wonder why it doesn't make sense to just vent it outside in such a system as mine and avoid the problem of adding cooled air into the house in defrost mode. It's probably not cost effective to do so I guess.

    I do like the thermostat now that I get what all of the data means. And I do like being able to control it from tablet, esp in theater room since it's nice to circulate air when in use (low).

  • newtalk
    10 years ago

    Interesting discussion.

    We currently have a previous generation Carrier heat pump from 2001: 38YRA-030 with 40FKA002-3 air handler and 15 KW strips. By default, the defrost mode auxiliary heat setting for this unit is 0 or off. I guess many customers didn't like the 2-3 minutes of cool air blowing and Carrier changed it. It has never bothered us.

    This has been a great unit- very efficient, warm air at body temp. or above, and quiet. Auxiliary heat doesn't usually come on until it's below 10 degree F. The only issues have been an outdoor fan replaced under warranty and a indoor circuit board failure at year 10. This board cost approximately $700 to replace from the dealer. Install price was only $4575 in 2001.

    With all the low cost wind energy being generated at night, I believe heat pumps are the way to go for most locations. We're hoping to get another 10 years out of our unit. The higher 13 HSPF ratings on the latest units are great compared to our 9.0 rating. I look forward to even better efficiency in the years to come.

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Wow, hopefully, mine will also not need resistance heat until 10 degrees or so, as, that means I might need it every 5-10 years!

  • newtalk
    10 years ago

    It was this discussion that actually got me to look more closely at our unit.

    It has been set by the dealer from the beginning to the option of Super Comfort Heat Mode, which we like. This is basically an adjustment that allows for reduced airflow at 12-40 F and aux heat staging below 12 F to maintain temps. My previous comment about aux coming on at app. 10 F was just from observations over the years.

    From your comments, I realized that I could probably access hidden menus in our "old school" Carrier Thermidistat. Sure enough, there is an option for locking out aux. electric heat (strips) until a certain outdoor temp is reached. It has been off, by default, so I changed it to 15 degrees F. The lowest setting allowed is 5 degrees F (5 degree intervals). Maybe change it to the 5 degree setting? Any ideas? I guess it probably depends on how long the unit needs to run at such low temps. in order to extract heat versus a quick bump with aux. heat. The unit running nonstop for hours at night on heat pump mode is probably not desirable for many reasons.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    For newtalk

    Not scolding but it is not considered good forum etiquette to hyjack a thread.

    Go back and start your own thread.

    You will receive better responses which may help you.

    And as a start, what is your location?

    IMO

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    So, my adjustments worked fine yesterday. Most of the day, it was an incredibly (for here) cold low twenties, and, last night, got to around 11 degrees. Defrost was set to every 2 hours, heat strips turned off for defrost AND heat purposes. Heat pump kept up all night, did not frost over, house did not chill below set temperature. It mixed low and high stages. So, for the entire day, by *far* the coldest day of the winter (and likely all winter), I used less electricity than I did on a previous less cold day when heat strips were in play.

    Success!

  • Energywise.ks
    10 years ago

    This also my first winter in our new construction home with the 2 ton carrier infinity with greenspeed. I went under the service settings and lockouts set the electric strip lockout at 5 degrees no lockout on the hp and shut of heat strips during defrost. Kept up just fine and stayed at 73 setpoint. Big improvement on energy usage!

    I wanted to add that I left defrost setting in auto as I wanted to insure it did not frost over during freezing rain or when the outside humidity was high enough to cause issues with frost. Don't want to risk damaging the compressor or reducing unit efficiency due to frost build up.

    This post was edited by Energywise.ks on Sun, Dec 8, 13 at 21:11

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I am curious as to how well the defrost works on these Carrier units. I had defrost set to 2 hours, and during our recent ice storm (I monitored it closely as it was a learning experience), the unit never came close to freezing or frosting over. And that was with inches of ice. Is the defrost mode really that strong? I've had heat pumps before, and they were usually one big ball of ice no matter what setting they had during an ice storm. I am guessing this unit is vastly better. Was very surprised.

    Is it really dangerous to do that, set to 2 hours? It's hard to imagine worse weather than we had, lived around here for over 20 years now. Or, was I just lucky somehow, perhaps exact type of ice or something? On the surface, was thinking if it was a valid setting, it shouldn't be too bad as otherwise, they wouldn't allow it?

  • Energywise.ks
    10 years ago

    I am not an expert but I figured if it was under the restriction of service settings which meant for service techs there is some ability to mess stuff up. But I do not know which setting is most energy efficient for defrost without risking damage. And would like to know the answer. But until I see more feedback I can't afford to risk damage. I would love to have defrost less option as I currently so little to no frost build up on mine and it still defrosts....

  • ionized_gw
    10 years ago

    During an "ice storm" might not be the conditions for maximum icing of your heat pump.

  • Energywise.ks
    10 years ago

    Hi sfatula,

    Well the temptation to reduce my defrost cycles was just too much so I also set my defrost to 120 min. Based on what I read on carrier defrost cycle I think it would be okay. But will be watching it closely during this winter. I will find out tomorrow how much this will change my daily electrical usage. Thank you for pioneering this setting and keep us updated on any issues you run into and I will do the same.

  • Energywise.ks
    10 years ago

    I didn't see an improvement at 120 min so I went back to auto perhaps others will have different results depending on their regional climate?

  • newtalk
    10 years ago

    It got down to 6 F last night. I changed the heat strip lockout setting to 5 F and the heat pump kept up fine. It ran for app. 1/2 hour a couple of times early this morning to bring the temp. up to 70 F from 68 F, our nighttime setback. Defrost is set to auto for timing, but no aux heat on during these cycles.

    I put a cheap digital thermometer on a register to check air temp. early this morning. It reached 81 F, which felt warm to the bare skin. The low speed air flow also helps. That's not bad really, considering it's below 10 F outside. In more normal conditions (20 F- 40 F), I've measured 98 F at the register. We do use a always on low speed fan setting in the winter, which probably helps to circulate the limited heat output of the pump. I wouldn't go back to forced air natural gas heat with short 120 F blasts and the resulting lower indoor humidity. Modern heat pumps are very comfortable. Right now our indoor humidity level is app. 40%, and that's without any supplemental humidifier.

    FWIW, our home is over 30 years old and moderately tight with new windows and good attic insulation.

  • ionized_gw
    10 years ago

    98 seems low for normal conditions. I don't know why you would not want gas. Given natural gas price decreases in the last couple of years, it s a more economical way to heat.

  • newtalk
    10 years ago

    Natural gas prices will go up again. Drillers switch to oil fracturing when NG prices are low. LNG terminals have been built to export NG. NG and oil drilling will likely come under the Clean Air and Water Acts, like coal mining currently does, and this will also raise the cost of NG. I believe the low current price of NG is temporary.

    As far as savings, our heat pump has been great since installed new in '01. Our highest monthly (total) electric use for 2200 sf has been around 1800 kWh, with 450 of that not related to heating air (base). So 1,350 kWh for heating in January at $.14/kWh is only $189, as the worst case.

    We will be lowering our electric usage soon by installing solar (thermal) panels connected to a large garage water tank connected to radiant floor heat and our electric water heater. Soon after that we will install solar electric panels net metered.

    Our local investor owned utility has no concern for lowering costs and driving down rates. Their only concerns are payouts for management and dividends for shareholders. Given this crony capitalist situation, we are investing our own capital and knowledge in power production and efficiency improvements. We are already rated in the top 5% of 100 comparable homes for lowest electricity usage in our area. There is always room for improvement!

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    What state are you in newtalk?

  • newtalk
    10 years ago

    Indiana.

  • Steve
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thats not bad, house must be pretty efficient! My house is a tint bit larger, gut, warmer climate too. Still, i think you are doing well. 1,350 is great for there. Down here, ac is the larger cost.

  • newtalk
    10 years ago

    We just got our December- January electric bill and it's $209.37 for 1,695 KWh used over 34 days, or 36.6 KWh/day for just heating with the heat pump (base use subtracted out). The average temperature for this billing period was 33 F, which was 30% colder than last year.

    Because we used a larger amount of electricity, our unit rate dropped from $.143/KWh to $.124/KWh. Although this industrial pricing model is fine for factories, I've never agreed with it for residential use. If anything, there should be unit pricing discounts for those who use less than the average. In other words, promote good behavior/conservation with rewards. Anyway, we will never have such a model here with an investor owned utility and crony state government.

    I should also mention that we supplement our heating in the winter with a wood burning fireplace. The wood is free and it's good exercise doing the splitting. I'm not sure the fireplace actually adds any net heat to our home, considering that it pulls inside air up the chimney. An insert would be better for actual heat, but we are going to put our money into solar instead. The fireplace is really for ambiance.

  • mike_home
    10 years ago

    If you get free firewood, and you like the exercise, then wouldn't it make more sense to invest in a fireplace insert rather than solar?

  • ionized_gw
    10 years ago

    newtalk, you mentioned solar thermal previously. With photovoltaic panel prices what they have become, it sometimes makes sense to stick to that rather than go thermal. A great deal depends on what kind of net metering agreement you can get.

  • newtalk
    10 years ago

    I'm middle aged and have typical issues with back and rotator cuff from abusing myself when I was younger (sports, stupid stuff, etc.). So I see a day in the next 10-15 years when cutting, hauling, and splitting may end and I will have to pay for firewood.

    Build it solar dot com has some good low cost solar thermal projects that I'm researching right now. The passive nature of heating water with the sun's energy and then storing and using this heat is very attractive and will work well with our home's layout. Solar electric is the last improvement we will make, possibly combined with an electric car.

    I'm a wood guy, but I also appreciate simplicity.

  • bsmith
    9 years ago

    Reading this thread has reaffirmed my decision to upsize the Greenspeed per Carrier's recommendation based on my cooling load. I could have went either way: 3 or 4-ton with my heat load. Too bad they don't make a 3.5 ton, it would have been the perfect size.

    Last year's polar vortex in NY Long Island really pushed me into the 4-ton. The way I figure the unit will only go into defrost mode below 8-10F. I also have 300sqft of window space, three huge doors and a fireplace. No matter how much my thermal envelope is tightened there will still be leakage in this 75 year-old home.

    My biggest disappointment so far with the 4-ton is it only reduces its speed to 50% vs 40% for the 3 and 5-ton units. The information across the Internet is just plain wrong on that one. We're charting in brand new territory still, so hope I've added somewhat to the pool of information.

    Otherwise this unit is *way* better than my wildest expectations. The comfortability factor is way better than my single-stage and well worth the additional cost. I'd go even as far as to say perfect.

    We had a huge heat snap for two days 65% humidity and temps into the upper eighties still at 80F past midnight. I only used $3.15 for the entire day vs. almost $11 for a similar temp period last year. I also credit my new Sunrise windows with lots of the improvement.

    At full load the system was using approximately 1150W. It only went up to 70% usage for a very brief period at night. More importantly I could easily maintain rock solid 45% humidity at 73F. Not enough data to really extrapolate much else. The system is so quiet my neighbors asked why I hadnâÂÂt turned it on yet. :)

    The real test will be this winter though. I'll probably create a new thread to chronicle some of my observations.

    This post was edited by bsmith on Mon, Jun 2, 14 at 2:42

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    Still surprised that Carrier continues to be obstinate with head in the sand over not embracing electronic demand defrost. Far superior over their method of both time/temp and even the software driven advanced version.

    TD

  • bsmith
    9 years ago

    Yeah, true. They should at least give the option. Don't think they realize what a nuisance defrost is to some. I can also think of several deficiencies in their overall software too, some very glaring. I wonder if they are open to suggestions or are just plain stubborn like some companies.

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    Next winter I will be interested in hearing about your experience with GreenSpeed. It certainly makes a nice alternative to Geo HP system. Hope you are not one of the few to encounter the noise issue.

    TD

  • bsmith
    9 years ago

    Thank you tigerdunes. I appreciate all of the knowledge you have freely shared. :)

    I definitely picked the right installer, very knowledgeable and diligent. Every 'i' was dotted and 't' crossed, he followed the Greenspeed install manual to the letter. I should know, I read the thing around three times. You can tell, he's done plenty of these installs and was extremely familiar with the unit.

    I liked the fact that the co-owner lead the install, not a bunch of techs relaying phone calls. He allowed me to be very hands on with the entire design. We only disagreed on air-handler placement, I argued for shorter runs and he argued for better access and won, cause he's the expert.

    I still go back and forth between 3 and 4 ton, or 005 vs. 006. I'd definitely rely on heat strips and more defrost with the 3-ton, which didn't seem appealing to me. I figure the 10-15% efficiency lost during the summer will be easily gained back by at least 20-30% in a longer heating season. The 005 is a nice compromise between optimal cooling heating. The 006 would have given slightly better numbers, but at the expense of space at a premium.

    Still too early to tell whether I will be right or wrong, but it will be fun finding out the answer.

    This post was edited by bsmith on Mon, Jun 2, 14 at 15:02

  • siry2j
    9 years ago

    Great discussion guys, I appreciate all the back and forth and will be interested to see how it goes into the winter months.
    In April, I had a 3 ton greenspeed installed, well insulated home, ~1550 sq feet not including basement in the Boston area with the 005 handler.

    Could not be happier with the result so far. I echo the cooling efficiency and then some, we have had 2 or 3 85 degree sunny days so far and the cost to keep the house @70 degrees was between 50-80 cents a day with priceless comfort!

  • cocobob
    3 years ago

    New compressor installed and OAT/OCT sensor. Having defrost issues w too much ice as we reached -20C/-4F last night again. 3 yrs ago Carrier agreed in having the thermistor lowered on the tube to allow more defrost to avoid our ice build up and loud noise coming from such. It helped but the new replacement might have been put to it’s original position as ice is building up again. I’m wondering if going to from auto defrost to 30 min intervals for just a day would help rid of the ice rink built up on the bottom ? Also some of you above wondering why there’s electrical strip / gas heat used for defrost. Two things imo : defrost turns the unit temporarily into an air conditioner w cold air coming out our your ducts while defrosting. The heat helps stabilize the room temp as this cold air comes out of the ducts. I also suspect the furnace heating in defrost mode helps to build the suction superheat buildup needed in defrost mode. Anybody have suggestions on ice build up noise issue ? I’m thinking of installing an eavestrough heat coil on the bottom of HP to help rid of defrost water freezing on bottom of pan ? Once this ice touched the compressor and some copper lines it makes a lot of noise.

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