This is condensation from the furnace that is freezing up. When the condensation freezes up in the tubing and blocks it, the furnace stops working. Unfortunately, the drain tube exits the building very close to the ground so there really isn't any room to make it go vertical and go with gravity. I like the idea of replacing at least some of the indoor section of the tubing with copper pipe, but I am not sure that we could actually make the copper pipe run outdoors and also have it wrapped with electrical tape. I am not sure how much copper pipe we would actually have to run to allow the tape to heat it up enough to keep it from freezing. Thanks for your input.

Can you drill a hole in the concrete floor and let the heating condensate drain into the stone under the slab? That wouldn't be that unusual. You could let the AC condensate continue to drain outside and connect a seperate tube/pipe from the furnace to the slab.

I love Rube Goldberg types of things. A bit wierd but they work.

If I had this situation and knew that I only had a problem during the coldes periods and wanted the furnace to run then, and, that the condensate backing up to the furnace was the cause of the shut down, I would:

Find an alternate route for the condensate should the outside tubing freeze. I might add a Y connect in the condensate line prior to it's exiting the wall. Maybe even near the furnace. Run a piece of tubing from the second outlet of the Y into a bucket or large container like a large cat liter pan. Even a five gallon bucket would work if the tubing was below the level of the tube exiting the furnace secondary heat exchanger (where the condensate comes from). That's what I would try and the wife would come down, take one look, shake her head and mumble something and exit, stage left.

deweymn, I think your wife and my wife took that "TREAT YOUR HUSBAND LIKE AN IDIOT" course together. LOL

Well, those are some pretty good ideas. I am not sure how much condensation actually comes out, I have never measured it. I might try it at home and see. Floor space is minimal as the closet where the furnace is also has shelving and cleaning supplies like buckets, mops, broom, vacumn. I had another idea to run by. The hose comes out of the outside wall near the ground so there isn't really a way to make any vertical turns. I thought that maybe if I could dig a small drainage hole, like with a bulb planter, down to below the frost line, cover the plastic tubing with some insulated foam pipe wrap and place the top of the hose inside the drainage hole I might be able to get it to drip down into the ground far enough that it won't get completely blocked with ice like it does when it is just laying on the ground. I could also cover the whole thing with something insulated and waterproof. If I am going to do this, I would need to do it quick before the ground freezes.

I may be missing something that will prevent your doing this, but here goes:

Install a condensate pump. Use the plastic line. Arrange the line so that it runs straight up, more or less, and then drops from there to the lowest point which is the opening outside. Make sure that the line is wide enough so that it will not air lock. Use as short an extension outside that you can and insulate it.

It sounds as if a condensate pump is needed. You will need to remove the check valve at the condensate pump. As the pump is emptied the water will be forced to the outdoors. When the pump shuts off the water in the line will return to the pump and not freeze at the exit of the building.

Our Heating & AC guy had suggested putting in a condensate pump in but we don't have a stand pipe or a floor drain to drain it in. They had said we could run pipe across walls to drain in the sink, but that would be ugly to look at, so I said no to that idea. He never suggested discharging it outside. I'll have to call them back up and see if that would work. Thanks for the suggestions. Now that I have read a little more about condensate pumps, we just might be able to do that. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

I have the condensate pump and my line still freezes when it get really cold outside. It only sticks out about 6 inches outside my brick..It used to lay on ground..cutting it back to 6" helped but for some reason really cold nights it will freeze up..It is pointing vertically but just inside the wall (finished basement) it is horizontal.
I like the Y connector idea for backup

Yeah, the Y connector might work as backup, but you will need to point the backup end of the Y up (and maybe add an extra length of tubing vertically from the Y) to keep from filling your backup bucket with normal flow.

I also have a similar problem, except my furnace is in my well-insulated attic and has a condensate pump. Well, the pump line apparently froze up a couple of nights ago and cracked the tubing fitting, causing spray/leak inside my attic.

Removing the check valve in the pump as someone suggested previously might be the answer to my problem, as this will allow any extra water to drain back into the pump and not be as subject to freezing.

Any other ideas?

I think someone also asked the question of how much condensate a furnace will generate. I used a 5-gallon bucket as a backup the past couple of days, and my system generates about 1.5 gallons per day (nightime temp has been in the mid-teens, and daytime around 40-50 - thermostat kept on 68).

My condensing furnace drains about 3 gallons per day in colder weather . . . . assuming I cut it back to 57 degrees overnight - It would probably fill a 5 gallon bucket everyday otherwise

I know this because I put the furnace into service a week or two before I got all the drain plumbing done, and I had to empty the bucket down in the garage every day or it would overfill

I fashioned P traps (one for the furnace and another for the A/C) with removable plugs on both ends from 3/4 inch PVC and ran the condensate into the house septic system, just as all other water exiting the house does. Works just fine, with no danger of freezing . . . . or seeping under the foundation - I'll drain and clean the P traps once per season and pour a little bleach into the one not being used for the season

Don

How do I remove the check valve in the pump?
My furnace just froze up again last night..I was out with hot water de-icing the line. I haven't done the Y connector idea because I'm afraid of forgetting about the bucket filling up. How do I remove the check valve in the pump? What is a check valve? It would be great if the water was removed from the line after dispensing and worked it's way back to the pump. Believe it or not I just put antifreeze in the reservoir of the pump for a temporary fix. Eventually, I suppose, it will all get pumped out. Also, may try to drain this line out my regular drain lines (via tapping into a bathroom drain) Would this be a HVAC service call or a plumber?
Thanks!

My hardware store manager has recomended that I run heat tape that is insulated with steel braid thru the indside of the PVC pipe to keep it thawed. My only concern on this is the device stated "do not submurge in water" on the attached information. Anyone have experience with this suggestion?

I am having smae problem, installer stated it would not freeze but it has now twice this winter, with extended days of sub 10 degree weatehr. I have resorted to using a turkey baster to empty the pump so the heater is still running. I am considering sometime of mainfold system to turn off the line up into the attic to the outside and bypass that line to a five gallon bucket that could be used during the 10 degree below days. My furnace produces enough condensation in 2 hours to fill the pump. The pump will then run continously trying to pump but won't empty. Thus the use of a turkey baster to empty the pump and then the heater kicks back on. There has got to be some easier method to solve this problem.

In searching for answers on another board an HVAC suggested getting a heat tape made for DRAIN LINES ( not regular heat tape and wrapping the the drain line to keep it from freezing.

Also until heating cable gets here, plumber told me to put a little anti freezer in pipe and cup thst initially holds water coming out and that helps lots. When it's gotten very cold I ran a small space heater next to the place where water comes out. Works like a charm but I'm not comfortable leaving heater on for a long time.

Gee, we are getting responses to a post that is about 6 years old.

A couple of things to keep in mind. Fluid from a condensing furnace is very acidic. It will probably chew through copper pipes very quickly if not neutralized before it enters them. Likewise, you don't want it irrigating your slab. There is simple equipment to do this with percolation through limestone chips or similar material.

The condensate from a furnace comes from the combustion chamber. Be careful if you mess with this. If you do something ignorant, you might get combustion gas released where it is not supposed to be.

I measured my condensate water on the coldest days, and got one gallon of acid water at an pH 2., per hour. It is not normal to pour a gallon of vinegar into drainage systems every hour. For $100.00 I put on a neatralizer and I now flush my toilets of collected gray water and without worry of corrosion. The neatralized water has an alkaline pH, about a pH of 8. Tap water is pH 7. I also now take in air to the combustion and gas chamber from my crawl space, 1200 sq ft for a 100 Btu Lennox G21Q3-100-3. I must yet thaw out the exhaust vent by using nontoxic antifreeze, and break up ice crystals with a plumber's snake. I turn off the unit, and turn on a heater. After one hour the shut down unit cooperates, and I have heat, again. We seniors, and the younger generation, need to organize and have either a Public Enquiry and hold the Federal govt. Accountable and all provinces and territoties for making HEFs a required environmental heat source., and they freeze up. I cannot purchase a standard gas unit in my town. The standards are a safe furnace and never freeze up. I also recommend a Lay of private information for criminal endangering and lack of venting gas inspections for non compliance of safe venting to any brand of an HEF and no matter the date installed, or date of the last service call. I installed in 1994, and continue to protest harmful venting, as of 2015, and having to figure out my own solutions. I am in Dawson Creek. Call me if interested and you know a large ethical law firm to be challenged by a Class action, consisting of two or more persons. Donna Young.

I know Ionized! couple of old threads have sprung back to life...methinks if the condensate freezes, you should move south.

best of luck all!

Energy_rater_la, be careful what you wish for. It will get pretty crowded if all the Yankees move to less temperate areas.

And all of Canadians, too, moving South, suffering of no heat in our homes. WHY? BECAUSE of lies we would save up to 40 per cent on fuel costs if we installed an HEF. Big mistake, they are unreliable in colder regions.

The GAS saving is more like $15.00 per month, comparing to a non-freezing standard furnace. And we will never recover the higher HEF repair bills or the higher unit cost, and installation. And it's sòooo cold when the furnace shuts down of cold icy air coming into the gas chamber. Blockages of ice shut down the HEF, too. Therefore, keep repairing your safe regular and standard gas furnace, and report all false information in promoting HEF for colder regions, colder than 50 F, and even colder at 0 C or 32 F, water freezing temperatures.

There are less problems with a mid-efficiency gas furnace, as they release warm steam and do not freeze up, or so I'm told. Cold vapors from HEF do freeze up, and destroy unprotected house structures and sidings. They cause wood rot, and molds. Destroy brick siding, too. Acid water created by the HEFs is harmful to all metals and concrete.

Plan to recycle neautralized acidic water to flush your toilet if you haul or pay for city water. NEUTRALIZERS are available for about $100. The HEF on cold days create the acid water, one gallon per hour. That is harmful too, if the HEF's acid water is not required neutralized by your local or State gov't.

This writing is for the serious person, and not intended for jokers who don't really give a dam, except for their own interests, and not the publics' good or the environment for the next generation, that our oceans are becoming more acidic. ALL HEFs add to this acidic created problem. Dilution is no solution, prevention is the answer.

Donna Young,

Poor installation and poor match of capacity to heat loss can negate the higher efficiency. In clumsy hands, it might be better to go with mid-efficiency.

Your argument about acid water is specious. If acid is not trapped in condensate and neutralized at the source, it will be released into the atmosphere causing acid rain. No, dilution in the atmosphere is no solution to pollution. Keeping the acid concentrated and treating it properly is the solution.

Few homes, with an HEF, have installed a nuetralizer for acidic water created water. I collect the neutralized water and flush my toilets with it. But acid vapor is being released still over my garden area. I've tarped it. I am hoping the Mallard ducks will again nest in my lagoon. They have not done so for many years. I am told a rat will not drink the acid water, if given a choice of tap water.

Animals wanted: I need a rat to test the HEF CREATED acid water, a snake to move out frozen water vapors causing an HEF shut down, and a Canary to warn of carbon monoxide release in minor or major amounts and detached elbows in plastic venting, hidden in walls or in attics or crawl spaces.

PROBLEMS WITH HEF VENTING SOLUTION:

I'VE GONE TO CLEAN HEAT, ELECTRICITY, as of Dec. 9, 2015.

I understand, Donna, that electricity is very inexpensive in some parts of Canada, that is not as true South of your border. It is true that large sources of potential pollution, such as electric power plants, are more easily dealt with than a bunch of smaller sources, but neutralizing the water condensed in an efficient boiler or furnace is a relatively easy matter.

If you have a lot of acid vapors released outside, it indicates to me that your furnace is not working properly either due to poor installation or it needs service. There should be relatively little vapor released outdoors, most of it will be condensing if it is working correctly. The "standard furnaces" that you refer to pump out a lot more pollution even if they are working properly.

Specious no, I confirm my research.

The provincial government, in BC, did not do any research on how much a trickle of water was created by all HEF's released. It will depend on the efficiency of the HEF, and the greater the efficiency the more created acid water.

On the coldest days, colder than 0 C, my Lennox 1994 Pulse Creates one gallon per hour of corrosive acid water. This is harmful to all concrete and metals.

The pH will very per fossil fuel supplier. My acid pH was tested in a Waterloo, Ont. lab, at pH 2, the tap water pH 7, and the neatralized water at over pH 7.2, alkaline and safe to flush toilets and enter my private lagoon.

The heavy acid water concern is not in hydrogen but rather in oxygen which is about 16 to 18.

If the other elements in the condensate could be known, it may be safe to water the lawn, but not likely for a vegetable garden or to drink, or give to animals. Costly and further HEF acid water testing would have to be done.

Why has Canada called these HEF a good environment replacement for the mid efficency fossil units, or the older standard furnces (which neither freeze up), when the HEF pollute the air and now the water drainage systems? And add to the acid rain and the oceans becoming more and more acidic. My savings, compared to a regular gas unit, was merely $15.00 a month, and I will never get my monies worth of the unreliability of the Lennox HEF, and its many shut downs.

Questions...forward if interested to do so....

David Zuski where are you on this HEF acid water environmental issue? Where are your science studies? Were your legal advisors, if any, asleep? Can their testing, if done, challenge mine?

What about other BC environment groups...? WHAT research did they do, dating back to the mid-1980's?

David, is this not a contributing factors that thousands to millions of HEFs, in North America, were permitted to dump acid water just anywhere and a preventable cause of more pollution, and not less.

SORRY, MOTHER EARTH, WE GOOFED UP, AGAIN.

Update on no heat in windy areas or colder regions for any brand of a high efficiency natural gas furnace. Generally, the problem is unsafe venting or inspections that are dishonest, as I experienced. Switching to electrical heat solved no heat in the home, but it is expensive in B.C. For 33 days, I used in Step 1 732 kW.h at $0.07970 /kWh, and Step 2 I used 3536 kW.h at $0.11950 / kWh. Total bill including taxes was $572.37. My use of natural gas would have been about $275, plus electrical usage. This is for a very mild winter. However, it is likely that if we should experience -58 F like we did 47 years ago, not one high efficiency gas furnace would have given us reliable heat. My standard gas furnace in 1968 gave reliable heat for -58 F. All standard furnaces will give reliable heat in windy and icy cold temperatures, and that may be true for mid efficiency furnaces. But any brand of an HEF with bad venting, and poorly inspected, is a high risk furnace, in my opinion.

So you say you are worried about the environment and say using a standard furnace (which is less efficient) is better than using a high efficiency furnace... Going electric sounded like a great idea, until you got the electric bill double the price of gas. If I had near $600 in heating bill per month I would be broke quick. You can either pay for the energy at the point of use (gas) or you can pay for the energy plus shipping (electric). Both ways pollute equally, you just don't see it from the electric plant. If everyone went electric we would have some real problems with infrastructure and load capacity. Take your conspiracy theory elsewhere please, there is pollution either way, the small amount of acidic condensate is moot compared to high air emissions. Its all about carbon, that is what makes the condensate acidic, and carbon is found in most things. Most soil is acidic anyhow. In fact, most of the lawn feed concoctions like scotts etc are acidic.

Your furnace was probably on the fritz in the first place considering how much you were saying it being horrible and not heating well.

I did not say my furnace did not heat well. It does, it is a functional furnace, G21Q3-100-3 Lennox Pulse, 1994. The venting was and is improper. Not the fault of the owner. Our duty was to keep the filter clean, and have the furnace heat exchanger air pressure tested per manufacturer directives. Problem was the poorly trained or trained and licensed gas installers who may have had a reading problem and did not follow manufacturer's installation technical directives. That was their duty and taking out the gas permit when they were to work on venting. The duty was then to the local or State or provincial gas inspectors, and they were not trained, either, it seems in my province of BC. So on windy days and below freezing the HEF furnaces and even to 2014 new installations do shut down. These HEFs appear only to be a global and warm weather invention. The HEFs, therefore, according to freeze ups on-line, are not well suited for colder regions or windy areas, they are unreliable. And created acid water is adding to acid rain, and eventually will get into private lakes and lagoons, and public ones. Whereas, older standard furnaces pumped stuff into the air. The HEFs are pumping carbon monoxide and acidic vapors into air, plus dumping acidic water one gallon per hour, in my testing, on colder days. PH 2 not 5, high in oxygen, 16 to 18. Now, times that per 3000 to 5000 homes per hour, in small colder towns, and it is an issue that is preventable. Now I am looking for a better cleaner source of energy, Solar. Sure there will be battery storage pollution, but there will be clean air, as will be for then back up of electrical hookup, and backup very polluting, but nice warm heat, wood. Pressure is no longer in the local or provincial building codes in BC to have to go natural gas with an HEF for any new or older home, of any construction, trailer, modular home, or condos, whatever. The HEFs are hopefully on their way out. They were probably meant as a golden cash cow in expensive installation and repairs. So troll all you want. Which industry are you promoting, the plastic venting, the HEF manufacturer or the guys and dolls profiting from bad installation, and can't read their instruction installation books, or report bad design, in the exhaust venting too close to the air gas intake vent, CSA B149.10-8.3.7, page 84, confirmed 2015 and 2016. Tell that to the furnace manufacturers of a faulty engineering venting design. It robbed many HEFs of longer life, past ten years. Most HEFs are hooped within ten years, a cash cow indeed. Whereas, Standard furnace well maintained and made 45 years ago, are going strong, but not most HEFs that came out in the mid 1980s. That may be to the proper venting instructions not being followed or inspected. Shame on the guys and dolls who did the harmful HEF venting and did not apologize and by an implied duty to fix the bad workmanship. This is yet my problem today, so off with the gas meter in order to keep home insurance. Most persons with bad gas HEF venting do not realize that if they have a problem, they would not have a claim honored with bad gas venting. Insurance agents know how to inspect past gas permits and dishonest allowances of bad venting and design of them of any gas product by any unethical gas venting inspector.

The acid condensate produced by condensing furnaces and boilers is an easily-controlled point source*. In the less efficient, non-condensing counterparts, the acid vapor immediately becomes a diffuse cloud that is no longer controllable.

*Easily controlled by percolating it through some simple limestone chips neutralizing it.

I agree. I put on a Sask. Neutralizer, made in Canada, on my HEF drip vent, hooked it up to a pump, and stored the neutralized water, and flush my toilet. It saved me in this created water about $100. a month in hauled city water. It is only safe for flushing toilets, and not tested safe to water the garden for unknown fossil fuel elements yet in the created water. The treated furnace water tested as alkaline, over 7.5, about 8 plus. It will not rust out the toilet metal parts, or my concrete, or harm the sump pump, and or now the lagoon. The city tap water was 7, and the acidic water tested below 5, about 2. Best to have a pH strip from 0 to 14 to do your own testing. I did the change over, to install a neutralizer, few persons know about, on Feb. 2014. In Dec. 9, 2015, I had my gas meter taken off as to a now BCSA official hazardous HEF venting, which lasted for 20 years. Not with any of my agreement. I hope the Mallard ducks will again nest on my private lagoon, the front area. They moved to back alkaline dug outs. So hope a more alkaline lagoon is better for whatever else uses the sewage lagoon. I pity the Dawson Creek city lagoon's beavers, with over 3000 homes and businesses dumping untreated HEF acidic pH2 water from their homes. Again, for our winter days, that is one gallon per every hour, per every home with an HEF or business with no neutralizer on their HEF required, locally, or provincially, or any where across Canada. If this is true in Canada, it is likely true in the USA, anyone, industries, too, may dump acidic water just any where, surface ground, private or public water lagoons, or lakes. Poor creatures.

Rest assured that in any municipal waste water system in the USA, there are limits to the pH of what you can run down your drain. I doubt that our frosty friends to the North are that much different. If you have too low or too high, there are two solutions. One is dilution an the other is neutralization. In my laboratory, we do some of both approaches depending on circumstances. The volume of the condensate going into the lagoon is only one side of the coin. The total volume of the waste water and the pH buffering capacity of that other waste water is the other side.

I don't know if there are regs limiting the discharge to personal lagoons, septic systems or drain fields. Keep in mind that dilution will take care of a lot of the problems no matter where it is being discharged if from an occupied building. That means that if you go away for a couple of weeks in the middle of the winter, however, you might be changing things considerably. In a public waste water treatment situation, it is obviously different since someone is always in town.

pH is only one part of what makes water corrosive or scaling/liming (the other extreme). Low pH and low mineral content (measured as calcium chloride) make water corrosive causes scaling. High pH and high mineral content make it liming.

If the buildings that have no neutralizers with their heating appliances, also have metal soil pipes, rest assured that they will pay a price for omitting the neutralizers. It will probably be sooner rather than later. The installer is responsible and should be held responsible for plumbing repairs caused by their omission.

It seems the installers of the High Efficiency Furnaces are believing a lie by the furnace manufacturer. My Units information the furnace manufacturer claimed the created water was only mildly acidic, suggesting apple juice, or above a pH 5. My tested water samples, three in all, by an Ontario Waterloo lab stated pH lower than 5, about 2 for the untreated HEF condensate. City tap water was normal, at pH 7. The neutralized water was alkaline and deemed only safe to recycle it to flush my toilets. It was not deemed safe to use to water the vegetable garden, or give to animals. This was for unknown and untested fossil residues. The oxygen content, that was being called heavy water,was between 16 and 18. It may be the created acidic HEF water condensate will depend on the natural gas supply or propane or oil and what is all in it, or its additives. The area's natural gas composition may have to known for any variations of the pH from one area to another regarding the HEF's condensation. Do you plan to test any HEFs created acid water in your area? You will need a pH strip from 0 to 14. We could then factually compare facts.

If I ever install a condensing heating appliance, I will just install a neutralizing device and be done with it. It is quite simple.

Good, start right. But there are millions of HEFs already installed without required neutralizers. The lie is believed, mildly acid created, and just drip. Drips add up to one gallon per hour in colder regions. All HEFs have added to pollution. They pollute vapors into the air and created acidic water released just anywhere. The failure to investigate the facts is a local, provincial, State or Provincial failure. I will look at making a web url, and share just how improper their installations are, for one, very unreliable because they freeze up, and wind stops them too. They are an unreliable machine for mere savings of $15.00 a month in fossil fuel consumption. Do more research. How is this for a title for a web url: High Efficiency Furnaces -- are they harmful and impractical?

Effectively educating the naive public to advantages and disadvantages of condensing heating appliances is a good goal. All combustion appliances produce acid pollution. Efficient ones produce less acid at least in proportion to the amount of fuel used. I believe that the nitrogen and sulfur oxides also change in relation to each other and are lower in absolute terms. That is something that should be presented accurately, but I don't have precise answers. Reduction in fuel use obviously reduce CO2 emissions which is obviously an important goal for many people.

Unfortunately, retrofitting condensing appliances into old homes can be a tricky project. They don't always fit the existing distribution systems (ducts and radiators). That sometimes leads to installing a high efficiency appliance that can not run in an efficient way.

Condensing appliances put acid waste into waste water where it is easily dealt with. Non condensing appliances just dilute it with air so it can not be handled leaving it to fall out in acid precipitation in downwind areas, exporting your waste.

All combustion appliances produce acid pollution. Efficient ones produce less acid at least in proportion to the amount of fuel used. I believe that the nitrogen and sulfur oxides also change in relation to each other and are lower in absolute terms. That is something that should be presented accurately

AND should be presented by someone not BIASED against high efficiency furnaces. Sorry Donna, I don't believe people will listen if you employ your personal agenda against HEFs. The only way it will change is if you got a chemical engineer and an HEF and did a scientific study then released the data to the manufacturers and the govt. I agree with ionized that for the most part the acid gets diluted in the waste water, most condensate lines lead to a floor drain which goes to the city sewer. But if the condensate can be neutralized in a cost effective way that homeowners would actually do then I would be for it. Just try to be a little more practical and not so radical.

My opinion is that residential condensing/modulating furnaces and boilers should be checked and serviced by knowledgable people on an annual basis. That can be outside service people or homeowners that have the interest and capability. They are a lot more complicated than the old "80% equipment". The acid-neutralizing trap can be checked, and replenished (with lime stone chips or a new cartridge) if necessary at that time. Note that the high efficiency equipment has a lot of self-diagnosis capability.

Vith and ionized gw. Hopefully you are not trolls, protecting the gas and propane industries. Facts on the downside of many HEFs are often in videos, pictures, the brand unit's own installation instructions, which do include how to vent the plastic venting to their unit. If the bonding of the independent retailers of any HEF product was carried by the furnace manufacturer they would protect the public interest their free enterprise unit suppliers followed the highest code to install new technology, and not just cut corners to make a higher profit.

Plus, all manufacturer's instructions are to follow known testing and safety codes regulated and published gas and propane codes. These too must be followed. When I had two dishonest gas agents from the British Columbia Safety Authority reports, claiming all was fine, yet my furnace was unreliable as to unsafe obvious venting, if they knew their own duties, but sadly, they had to be informed by the BC Safety Appeal Board, I was correct. bad venting.

This did not help my situation because the protocol was to yes, confirm to the homeowner the venting is unsafe, not to code, but they, the BCSA, also had the duty to officially inform and re-inspect gas permits taken out by any and all of those responsible for the unsafe venting and breach of published codes, and the furnace manufacturer's instruction, where safe. This makes for the public trust that trailers, modular homes, older homes, and new homes all have equal protection of safe gas venting to any gas product, not limited to high efficiency gas furnaces.

To my understanding, these HEFS were to have gone through testing they would service, if vented correctly, all weathers, and all winds, and rain, and would be as reliable to give heat and comfort in the toughest situations, like in my area, when mercury drops below -40 F or - 40 C.

Furnaces are meant to be reliable in extreme weather patterns. HEFs are not so tested or reliable. Reliable HEFs are not true in many parts of the USA or in Canada, making fair comment the HEF are only a warm global machine, cutting down on C02 but are being allowed to release acidic water just any where. Their known condensate not also tested in fact, per gas or propane supplier.

Just what is the pH level, and just what are the other elements put into the private or public lakes, and not treated prior to discharge? And what of the concrete and metal pipes under the home, which are being corroded while the acidic water is going into the drainage systems.

Just check out on line, the various complaints: Why has my HEF stopped working? Why is my sewer line frozen? Why have I no heat? I just paid $12,00 for a new unit so Why is it not working? And see the cover ups of those who had a duty to inspect and know their duty on venting. Look up HEFs not reliable for trailers, Edmonton, Alberta. The info also shows just how much acidic water is created and dumped on a tree, not knowing the pH was likely pH2 with other damaging elements in it.

I am most surprised that most home and business insurance companies are not informed of how vulnerable a home is if they install an HEF that does not have an official local or State venting inspection sticker on it and before the gas was turned on. That is public protection.

And check out what government authority actually did the testing of the HEF's condensates pH level, and other elements being hazardously released, just anywhere. And the amount of condensate per hour in weather below 0 C that is created. This is very Bad local, State and Provincial Environment laws, which was intentional to be just one sided, reduce C02.

I would make fair comment the gov't and the gas and propane industry just wanted to save on $15.00 a month on fossil fuel to ship outside of Canada and or the USA. Environment be damned, it is bad law for greed in higher profits to those in the plumbing, gas and propane and the plastic venting industries. In Canada, that is the CIPH.

So it is fair comment, for me, it is Up with clean heat, solar and electrical replacements for unreliable HEFs.

Facts: The HEFs unit costs are more expensive, not equal to install a standard or mid efficiency furnace. The HEFs parts are not interchangeable. Many HEF parts are not available after or within ten years.

The poor and the elderly are taken in with lies and grants, that they will save money, or do their part to cut down pollution, and these are all lies, what may be an unintentional Tort.

All these types of lies I also had been conned with, as a senior, Better At Home. My HEF was to last me my life time, and both my parents lived to 97. have the original life time warranty on my HEF, but only on the heat exchanger. The manufacturer took away security within ten years, of even a spark plug being available, no interchangeable parts and or for the plug sensor.

I just want to share the truth on the down side of most HEFs the public by lack of information are being scammed when they should, under any Grant, simply rebuild their Standard safer furnace, which are yet going strong at 40 years, and are reliable in the worst storms, but not the HEFs.

So it is fair comment, for the poor and the seniors, under the grant, or tax credit deduction, only add to their heat system electrical heat and solar panels, tie into the electrical circuits, and maybe, get some money back on electrical power not consumed. All for true clean heat. And if power fails, have a good wood stove, too. Cover all bases.

Hopefully you are not trolls, protecting the gas and propane industries.

Laughable, you can check our activity and note we have been here for a while lol.

Again, the whole rant about your HEF not working properly doesnt mean all HEFs dont work. I dont mind you trying to get people to acknowledge that the condensate is acidic, I agree it would be nice that we did not make acid, but all we can do is choose the lesser of two evils, either pollute the air or make acidic water that will be diluted or can be neutralized. Do you remember when all houses used coal for heat? Imagine the pollution from that. A bit of condensate is not so bad. Also your estimate how much condensate is made 1 gal per hour is way over estimated. You must live in the very north of canada to have it run that long to get that much. I have a condensate pump on my furnace, it holds less than a liter of condensate and the pump activates maybe once or twice a day.

My HEF was to last me my life time

Dont know who told you that, they dont last a life time.... High end expectancy is 20 years.

simply rebuild their standard safer furnace, going strong at 40 years, that are reliable in the worst storms, but not the HEFs.

Doesnt make sense at all. Your standard "safer" furnace requires the same gas for the heat and electricity for the blower it just isnt condensing and sends more heat out the roof.

One last note, paragraphs are nice, you should try it.

Just trying to make some points, that those getting an HEF think they will save a lot of money, in gas consumption. But other unknown expenses build up, like travel and labor to fix the unreliable HEF, mostly from improper venting and lack of an ethical and trained venting inspection.

Higher expense in parts, are known. The industry does not have interchangeable parts for HEFs, so parts may not be a local item. Take for an example, a new computer blower for one HEF cost the senior $800. as he was told his unit, under five years old was not under warranty. A trade and supplier lie, of course. Labor and shipping was extra.

He had already spent $12,000. He had already had a freeze up in his condensation line. The power was off.

Seems most HEF installers do not budget to inform a senior how to service their HEF with non toxic anti freeze when the power is off.

The HEFs are out of normal management for most homes. The venting is not specific for areas with high winds and colder climates, and snow drifting is dangerous for low venting errors for side or roof top venting.

The Standard furnaces were always through the roof, high enough to avoid trouble. The Standard are and yet are always safe and reliable in their installation.

The HEFs and this new technology industry (since the 1980s) have not perfected training on plastic venting installation. The HEF industries involved have not prevented acidic water release, with a cost under $100 for a neutralizer. Prevention is better than an ounce of cure.

Sure a Standard reliable furnace will let up some heat up the metal chimney, $15.00 a month difference; but the standards are all easy to repair, generally under $100 for a new fan belt and a new flame igniter. But the industry has a known plan to stop making parts for the standards, forcing HEFs to become the only option in manufacturing. Some would call this an Intentional Tort of those authorities using environmental policies to impose the HEFs.

So what are the options? Share: Stock up on parts for your reliable Standards, now. Go electrical and solar. This is much cleaner if you wish to really reduce C02 and truly stop any acidic water release and air pollution.

If you are not trolls for the gas and propane industries, and the HEFs and the plastic industries that failed to train on proper HEF venting, prove it by supporting petitions for grants in All States and in Canada, for all Provinces, for solar panels hooked up to the electrical circuit. This will have pay backs. And, Back up to all is still a good wood stove.

$15/month implies a $100/month heating budget. I guess that nat gas is getting very inexpensive and this is a very well sealed and insulated home.

The HEF's savings in natural gas consumption at $15.00 per month ($180.00 per year) was stated average per standard 3-bedroom full basement home in the Vancouver, BC area. This is a milder climate zone than Northern BC, where I live.

I did a check of my 96 plus HEF with a standard furnace, equal 100 BTUs. Our homes are of equal age, late 1950's construction and neither not well insulated. My savings compared to theirs about the same heat need, as seniors, was just a little over $15.00 a month. This is yet true today.

Going Hydro, cleaner heat:

On equal payment plan, my hydro budget for all heat and needs will cost me $125.00 a month. In the Kamloops area, milder climate, the average cost for hydro heat for a home similar in size and insulation as my home, pays monthly, just under $300. a month. I expect my average hydro billing, with no gas heat, will be higher, next year.

If your old furnace was 81% efficient (a decent real-world number), the new one is 96% efficient and your heating bill was $500 in January, you should have a $425 heating bill in a similar January (with the same degree days). That assumes a competent installation and a good furnace match to the building's heat loss.

I will need a math expert to sort out my hydro electric bill. From Dec. 9, 2015 BC Hydro is being almost totally used to supply heat to a rather old house, plus all the other perks we all get using clean hydro power. Little wood is being used, saving it for power outages. This winter has been mild. The first 33 days on hydro was total $370. Next 33 days was total $572.

The former home gas heat was from a 1994 (96 plus) high efficiency natural gas furnace. So an expert would need to summarize how much hydro power was needed to blow natural gas heat from a Direct Vent Forced Air Furnace, and what hydro power was consumed to supply the rest of my standard electrical needs. You have to be math- kW h -smart to know hydro consumption, or you need to be smart to understand the Smart Meters.

Remember, too, this HEF was directly polluting my private lagoon with created acidic water with a pH lower than 5. The Mallard ducks had stopped nesting in the lagoon.

When HEFs at 98 efficiency rate were planned to be the wave of the future how are they adding to acidic water problems when no municipality requires them to have a neutralizer on them before discharging anywhere?

Year 2016: If I never return to unclean HEF natural gas heat which are being "allowed to dump acidic water anywhere", and go to Solar panel heat, sunny most days, will I be saving? Will there be a Brownie-Badge for saving the environment, too? And will I get a rebate for any unused hydro if the solar system is not battery operated but is better tied into a Hydro grid?

Solar Power is where the future should be. Any grant money should be applied for us all to install Solar panels tied into the hydro grids.

Imagine every home in the USA and Canada installing Solar panels, under incentive Grants and giving credit back to the homes for unused power. That is Smart living.

For those interested in natural gas vs. electrical heat for a home 1700 sq ft, Feb. 29 2016 BC Hydro billed me for 30 days, Step 1: 666 kWh at $0.07970 / kW.h $53.08; and Step 2: 2221 kW.h at $0.11950 /kW.h $265.41; then there are other add on and taxes for a Total $380.77. This is for a very mild winter because we did not go to -32 C.

BC Hydro for BCER's is not the cheapest rate in North America. I suggest for a Provinced owned public utility, the lowest rate for excess power should be first to BCER's, rather than whole-selling power cheaper to profit power corporations outside of BC.

I will be pricing out Solar Panels to be hooked into BC Electrical Grid. Price for a new model of an HEF is $12,000, a Trane, 100 BTU's. The estimate will be my budget for Solar Panels, rather than risk more of the same HEF improper installation and gas venting inspections.

Once bitten, shy of con-persons in the HEF gas and propane industries.

You can correct for yearly changes in heating and cooling demands by using degree day data from a close by weather monitoring station.

ionized...I am not sure how to use your information.

Donna, if you do a google search for "heating degree days", I am sure that you can see how it works. Degree days are used to predict fuel demand with changes in outdoor temperature.

Will do and thank you.

I could show in a home video of the hazardous problems common in colder regions on plastic HEF venting that freeze up and gas codes or manufacturer's best installation instructions not followed. Does Houzz allow such attachments?