Tiger & Neo:

Thanks for the quick replies.

If I replace both systems. What am I looking at price wise (approximately ball park)?

GoTerps

hard to say about price but you would get the full extent of the $1500 tax credit.

probably around $5-5.5K(after TC) depending on brand/mdl and assuming just a basic changeout and ease of installation. in other words no problems with accessibility,space, etc. I would recommend new lineset if AC is replaced.

IMO

Tiger:

The contractor I had out informed me just now that if I went to a 95% afue, then he would have to see if it possible to install a PVC flue out of the home somewhere.

He is also quoting me a price of $8500 for a Goodman system which is going to be 95% afue with a 16 seer

Is it high, low or ok??

Thanks

GoTerps
without seeing all details and scope of install, yes I would say quote is high.

Goodman has long been seen as a brand where price is more important over quality.

if not a 95% eff furnace, then take an 80% VS model paired with a high eff heat pump that qualifies for tax credit.

what size and age of existing AC?

Is your townhouse stand alone unit, exterior or interior unit?

BTW,I saw the Terps Saturday.

IMO

Personally, I don't care for Goodman, and certainly not at that price.

I think it is true to say that the installation price of a 95% unit will be a bit higher due to the need of a different flue system. But you will achieve a cost savings over an %80 system. So if you're going to be there a while it will pay for itself.

Another alternative would be a hybrid system of heat pump with gas backup. The HP would do well down to the mid 30's. But the operational cost savings would depend on your electrical and gas rates. I understand that MD had significant increases in electric rates after deregulation. Installation costs might be lower since with a hybrid system you would consider using a single stage %80 furnace instead of a 2-stage %95. (you would not be using the furnace as much with a hybrid.)

You need to go out and get some more bids while the weather is mild. But be aware that many dealers are getting busy at this time.

Tiger and Weed:

Thanks for the replies.

Could you please explain the 80% VS model paired with a heat pump. Im not familar with this set up.

Thanks

"Could you please explain the 80% VS model paired with a heat pump. Im not familar with this set up."

GoTerps

This would be a hybrid system commonly known as dual fuel system. Heat pump would be the primary heating source usually down to 30-32 degrees. Below that temp, furnace would take over operation at the lower temperatures. Dual fuel systems are quite popular depending on your location/climate, your home's building envelope and insulation qualities, and primarily your electric rate.

I would prefer the two stg 95% VS furnace/AC combo though over the dual fuel if not prohibited due to installation issues.

what size and age of existing AC?

Is your townhouse stand alone unit, exterior or interior unit?

post back.

IMO

Tiger:

The A/C unit is also 23 years old. I dont know the size. How would I find this out?

The townhouse is an interior unit.

Thx

GoTerps

you should be able to find the size on the dataplate usually found on the backside or side panel of the outside AC condenser. I would suspect a 2 1/2 ton.

With an AC that old, you would be making a bad decision not replacing it now.

what size AC did Goodman dealer quote?

IMO

Call some independent contractors and ask from some general phone quotes on a 95% 2-stage furnace and a 13 seer A/C. Shouldn't cost a ton.

My friend is getting a 95% 2-stage goodman gas furnace installed at his house on Wednesday for $1400 and that includes a brand new return vent into the furnace. He currently has 80% efficiency. It doesn't have to cost a ton (getting a new furnace). I wouldn't mind a goodman furnace but I"m not a fan of their A/C's. My grandma's late model goodman 13 seer unit seems cheap to me. Better off paying a bit more and getting something of higher quality.

Neo... I can't believe that price.. There is no way I could get that here in the DC area.

@ Tiger

I will check the dataplate at home tonight and report it here

Thanks to all for your assistance.

I definetly wouldn't call that the average price in the area but these installers install alot of them in my area. They are always busy. That furnace isn't the variable speed. It also doesn't have a condensate pump (it has the pipe across the floor). It is the 2-stage though. I'm gonna check it out when they are finished to make sure its done ok. I"m not expecting for him to get beautiful craftmanship but it shouldn't be leaking all over the place either.

I recommended my friend to have them do the condensate pump but his basement is crappy and he never goes down there so he said no. His old return going to the furnace was really big and in the shape of a cylinder. The new return will be rectangular and conventional. His house is from the early 1920's. He's done some new windows and sealing of leaks but its still on the leaky side. I"m hoping this will cut down his bills some more.

@ Tiger

Some more concrete answers & new news

FIRST NEW NEWS

In calling my HOA Property Manager. He said that due to restrictions in Montgomery County code, being in an interior townhome unit. I cannot use the 95% afue.

Concrete Answers

A/C Unit is a 2 ton, 8 seer date January 1987

Furnace is a 70% afue. Furnace has an input of 75,000 BTU. Output of 57,500 BTU

His detailed quote with model numbers coming Tuesday morning

Thanks

Not sure of your electricity price in DC but a heatpump alone might be able to work for you. Or you could go 80% furnace with a heatpump. Just some thoughts.

GoTerps

well the 95% eff furnace then is off the table.

that basically leaves two choices.

an 80% two stg VS furnace paired with tax credit qualifying AC condenser or if electric rates are reasonable a tax credit qualifying heat pump which would be my first choice. That is if electric rate is reasonable!

IMO

@ Tiger

We got into a disagreement on running new A/C lines. He said they do not need to be replaced but will do a flush test on them. He feels replacing the A/C lines will be more cumbersome as he would have to knock down some drywall in the basement to get to them to replace. He also mentioned that he wont be able to patch up the drywall.

Price Quote With Brand & Model #'s

Ok his quote as follows

Furnace

Goodman 80% 2 Stage Variable Speed (Model #GMVC80704BX)

A/C Unit

Goodman 16 Seer (Model# SSX160241A)

Installation includes:

Montgomery County Gas Permit with Inspection
Replacing ductwork in utility room to make smaller furnace fit to spec
New Thermostat including fishing new wire
New External Filter Rack
New Merv 8 Pleated Media Filter With Cabinet
Hauling away old Comfortmaker unit
Cleanup

Full Goodman Warranty including online product registration
2 year labor warranty including 2 maintainence services per year for a total of 4 visits. 2 year labor warranty covers any trip charge and freon, if needed.

Price= $6,850

What do u think?

GoTerps

generally I don't like commenting on Goodman systems.

what is evap coil mdl number?

does system qualify for tax credit?

it's always best to install new linesets but in condos/THs this can be problematic in many cases. how do you feel about the drywall in the basement?

you do want a two stg programmable thermostat. I'd be surprised if he quoted one. What mdl was quoted?

post back and please include evap coil mdl number.

IMO

what is evap coil mdl number?
No clue. But here is a link on just found on the web.

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453062621

does system qualify for tax credit?

Yes, for the $1500 tax credit. Plus I would be receiving a $400 rebate from BG&E (my electric company)

it's always best to install new linesets but in condos/THs this can be problematic in many cases. how do you feel about the drywall in the basement?

I dont want the mess to be honest with you

you do want a two stg programmable thermostat. I'd be surprised if he quoted one. What mdl was quoted?

No model quoted. Yes I would want a two stage thermostat

ask dealer to give you AHRI matching number.

@ Tiger.

Do you have brand recommendations? I saw in another post that you liked Carrier.

Since you're in Montgomery County as well, you might want to give Don Hoffacker's, James A. Wheat & Sons, or Cropp Metcalfe a call. Both are good companies. There are several good companies in our area if you want more names -- not sure if you're looking to dedicate any more time into seeking out estimates. Reusing the lineset is fine as long as it's done properly. I'm not a huge fan of Goodman systems but they can work well if installed properly. Carrier, Trane, Rheem are more preferable brands to look into, in my opinion. I've been following your post, and while not a pro, I do live in your area and would be happy to answer some questions about HVAC for you which may be more area specific. Tiger has given great advice so far.

To provide you with one more company name...Harvey Hottel is one company I didn't mention. For our area I think they have reasonable prices and they do good work from what I've seen.

@ Ryan.

Thanks for the advice

I live in Burtonsville. I called Don Hoffacker and they dont service Burtonsville.

P.S. Why is everyone against Goodman systems?

Goodman systems have improved from what they used to be - however they are still sold primarily based on price (your quote seems average for our area but high for a Goodman system) rather than being the most durable system on the market. That is not to say that a properly installed Goodman system will not perform as well as a properly installed system from X brand. Most Goodman issues are install related. Since they are easy to obtain, many people who have no business installing systems are putting them in homes - that is not always the case, however. One of the large companies in our area private labels Goodman systems and backs them with a strong warranty. Generally the parts are easy to get for them, but actually most systems built today utilize many of the same general components. So with all this said, I think you can find better than Goodman, but if you're comfortable with the dealer, then that is of primary important. If you ask me if a Goodman is built to the same level of quality/durability(strength) as a Trane, Rheem, Carrier, Lennox unit - then I would be quick to say no. It's quite obvious when comparing the systems in person.

@ Tiger & Ryan Hughes

I had a Carrier authorized dealer out here today. He highly recommended with me going with a Carrier Comfort series 80% afue with a 16 seer a/c unit.

He also hated Goodman and told me that they arent worth a damn. Funny thing is. He also disliked Lennox cause its a hassle to get any parts since you have to go to a warehouse outside of Baltimore and half of the time the parts arent there.

I will be getting his quote tommorrow morning and will post

GoTerps

always solid advice from Ryan.

I don't think you can get the tax credit from a Comfort furnace system that does not have a VS blower. Ask dealer for matching AHRI number for system he quotes. I would not leave the tax credit lying on the table.

There is another forum member who is a dealer in your area. his forum name is "maryland irisman" and his email address is listed in his profile. you might think about giving him a shout.

IMO

@ Tiger & Ryan Hughes

Ok. Lennox guy came over and is hyping his Signature Series line.

Any thoughts on Lennox??

Thanks

Can you post the exact model numbers (if you were given any) of the units you were quoted? Easier to give advise with the exact system combination in mind.

GoTerps

depends on the mdl. you should be asking about an 80% eff two stg var speed furnace with either a qualifying AC or qualifying HP condenser. Carrier/Bryant, Rheem,or Trane/AmStd. Lennox would be my fourth choice.

IMO

@ Tiger & Ryan

I definitely inquired about the heat pump idea. All three thus far were against it due to the lack of savings for the investment involved.

The Lennox guy said i would be spending around 10-11K with the heat pump/gas backup system

"The Lennox guy said i would be spending around 10-11K with the heat pump/gas backup system"

humm...

im confused LOL

@ Tiger and Ryan

I am on the Federal Tax Energy Credit website

Which heat pump should I be seeking out of these options?

Requirements
Split Systems:
HSPF ≥ 8.5
EER ≥ 12.5
SEER ≥ 15

Package systems:
HSPF ≥ 8
EER ≥ 12
SEER ≥ 14

Tax Credit includes installation costs.

My Electricity service cost is 10.75 cents per/kWh

GoTerps

first off, the Lennox dealer was blowing a great deal of smoke as far as pricing. I would send him packing.

I want to help you.

you will be getting a split system whether AC condenser or HP. you have a reasonable electric rate. I would not get hung up on AC or HP. Depends on quote. any idea of your nat gas rate? I will run a comparison for you between electric and nat gas if you like.

refer back to my post from Tuesday.

"well the 95% eff furnace then is off the table.

that basically leaves two choices.

an 80% two stg VS furnace paired with tax credit qualifying AC condenser or if electric rates are reasonable a tax credit qualifying heat pump which would be my first choice. That is if electric rate is reasonable!"

IMO

Tiger. Thanks for all your help. I would be highly appreicative if u could do the comparison. Thanks

This is from the latest bill

GAS USAGE

TOTAL THERMS (TH) USED 16.2

DISTRIBUTION SERVICE
DISTRIBUTION CHARGE
16.2 TH @ $.4284 $6.94

SYSTEM CHARGE $10.20

PGC @ $.7377 $11.95

MONT CTY SUR @ $.1175003 $1.90

TOTAL GAS CHARGES $30.99

Wish u were in the DC area, I would have just contacted you here personally!!

GoTerps

I'll do some figurin and cal-cu-lating and come back to you with some numbers. I assume by that usage that you have nat gas hot water and/or nat gas cookin...

IMO

Tiger,

Natural gas hot water heater. Electric cooktop

Equipment: Option #1

1-Lennox SL280UH090v36-B

1-XC14-024- 2 ton 2 stage high efficiency condensing unit 16,000 seer.

1-CX34-25B 2 ton high efficiency cooling coil

1- Honeywell programmable 6000 thermostat

1 -Precast pad

Option #2

Same equipment above but with a Lennox XC14-030-2 1/2 ton condensing unit 16.00 seer with a CXB34-31B cooling coil.

Option #3

1-Carrier 24CC624A003 2ton high efficiency 16 seer condensing unit.

1-Carrier CNPVP30- 2 1/2 ton high efficiency cooling coil

1-Carrier 58CVA070-1-12 80% 2 stage variable speed gas furnace

1-Honeywell programmable thermostat

1-Pre cast pad

Option #4

Same equipment above but with a Carrier 2 1/2 ton 16 seer unit in lieu of 2 ton.

Scope of work

The existing furnace, condenser coil and related piping will be dismantled and removed from the premises.

The owner may keep any and all parts.

The evaporative cooling coil will be installed to the present duct system in a manner providing minimum resistance to airflow.

The new furnace will be mounted on a ½” cushioned pad, Homesote or equal, and installed to the new duct system in a manner providing minimum resistance to airflow.

The existing electrical service panel will be satisfactory to operate specific condensing unit. We will complete all line (230 volt) wiring. A weatherproof unit to provide a secondary electrical safeguard.

The new thermostat will be installed at the same location as the existing one.

All work provided by XXXXXXX. will be executed in a neat, workmanlike manner and will comply with all existing codes and regulations pertaining to heating and air conditioning systems installations. The job will be left broom clean and free of all debris.

After field piping is complete, the entire refrigeration circuit, except for the factory charged condensing unit, will be evacuated of all air and moisture. This is a very important precaution against future service problems. Air and moisture are contaminants in a refrigeration circuit and the cause of many compressor failures. Existing line set will be flushed and cleaned to allow for new system.

A reinforced base will be installed to the exterior for the new condensing unit.

Unit will be wired in from the existing service complete with all necessary power, interlock and control wiring for proper operation

Will furnish and install all necessary refrigeration piping/ACR approved copper refrigerant lines from the indoors evaporative cooling coil to the outdoor condensing unit.

Will furnish and install all necessary gas piping to connect the new unit to the new existing gas line.

The condensate line will be installed in the existing.

WARRANTY:

Five- (5) year warranty on all parts and two- (2) year warranty on all labor provided by XXXX. From the date of completion of installation. Ten (10) year parts if warranty paperwork sent back within 90 days.

Five/Ten- (10) year extended manufacturer’s limited warranty on compressor.

Twenty (20) year/ limited lifetime manufactures warranty on furnace heat exchanger.

PRICE:

Contract price as described is for Option #1 $ 6,652.00

Option #2 $ 6,922.00

Option #3 $ 6,320.00

Option #4 $ 6,705.00

Note: Tax credit up to $ 1,500.00/ plus BGE rebate of $ 400.00 and additional BGE $ 500.00 rebate if still available see attached form .(Not sure if still available-First Come First Serve)

TERMS:

One-third-contract price with acceptance of proposal; (this does not include OPTIONS: if customer desires, see below) one-third with delivery of equipment to job sites; balance of one third with completion of work.

OPTIONS:

For the health of your family and protection of your furnishings, we suggest the installation of an April aire Humidifier complete with duct-mounted humistad. One (1) year parts and labor warranty. Please add to the basic proposal price: $515.00 each.

If the owner desires the installation of a media air cleaner at the same time as the heating/air conditioning equipment, please add to the basic proposal price, $385.00

Goterps,

I had Carrier Infinity furnace and condensers installed in my house last year. I am no expert, but I am familiar with the Carrier equipment.

I am not familiar with the condenser you have listed below. Are you sure the model number is correct? Is it a Performance series model?

It would seem a 2 ton condenser would be sufficient for a 1500 sq. ft. townhouse. Are the exterior walls exposed on each side? At 2 1/2 ton with a single stage unit you may be oversized and experience short cycling. What size condenser do you have now? Was a Manual J load calculation done? Is so what were the results?

The Carrier Infinity furnace is very nice. I strongly recommend getting the Infinity controller. Is the contractor offering the Carrier rebate? The rebate is larger if you get the Infinity controller.

Is a 4 inch filter quoted in the proposal? I recommend you purchase it over the 1 inch filter assuming you can fit it in the furnace utility area.

Does the condenser achieve 16 SEER? You need this to qualify for the federal tax credit. This is difficult to reach in a 2 or 2 1/2 ton size. Get the AHRI number from the contractor.

I also suggest getting the 10 year parts and labor warranty from Carrier. The parts warranty is built into the price. The labor warranty is additional money.
Option #3

1-Carrier 24CC624A003 2ton high efficiency 16 seer condensing unit.

1-Carrier CNPVP30- 2 1/2 ton high efficiency cooling coil

1-Carrier 58CVA070-1-12 80% 2 stage variable speed gas furnace

1-Honeywell programmable thermostat

1-Pre cast pad

Option #4

Same equipment above but with a Carrier 2 1/2 ton 16 seer unit in lieu of 2 ton.

@ Mike_home

The townhouse is an interior unit with a walkout basement (patio door & 3 double hung windows)

I just copied and pasted his entire quote word for word. Except I crossed his company's name out.

Thanks for your .02

GoTerps

let's look at each system's numbers.

option #1
3929268 Active Systems XC14 SERIES LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC. XC14-024-230-02 CX34-25+TDR SL280UH090V36B* 24000 13.20 16.00

option #2
3929121 Active Systems XC14 SERIES LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC. XC14-030-230-03 CX34-31+TDR SL280UH090V36B* 29000 13.50 16.00

option #3
3656259 Active Systems COMFORT 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC624A**30 CNPV*3014A** 58CV(A,X)070-12 23000 13.00 16.00 1

option #4
3656288 Active Systems COMFORT 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC630A**30 CNPV*3117A** 58CV(A,X)070-12 28400 13.00 16.00 1

all qualify for tax credit.

three observations.
1.The Lennox furnace is oversized and should drop down to the 70K model.
2.It is important that lineset be sized correctly whether you select 2 ton or 2 1/2 ton condenser. Flushing is acceptable practice but refrigerant lineset size must be correct. If you elect the 2 1/2 ton condenser, it is unlikely that old lineset will be correct size
3.I do not like thermostat selection for these quotes. I would like to hear from Ryan's ideas/suggestions on this.

I do recommend a good 4-5" box filter cabinet. I would not put down more than 25% upon contract acceptance.

now to the fuel comparison between electric vs nat gas.
to be fair, I will use 50 therms mthly usage to better average your nat gas mthly base charge.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat
Heat Pump with COP of 2.75 $1.15
Nat Gas Furnace 80% eff $1.81

you can readily see that a HP above temp balance pt is the less expensive choice to heat your home. Keep in mind the main reason for the large difference is the 80% eff furnace. yes, if operating costs are important to you, then HP operation would save you some $$s. ask dealer for option on HP condenser version if interested.

IMO

Tiger,

Thanks for taking the time out of your schedule to address these issues.

I will get a few estimates saturday and look into completing an agreement with someone next week.

Thanks again

The contractor shouldn't be giving you an option with what size condenser to go with. They are the professional, and they are the ones who are expected to size your system correctly. I feel that giving the homeowner the option is just a way to cover themselves if one size doesn't work out for you ("You had the option..."). I agree with getting more quotes on Saturday. I believe the first option, if they truly intended to quote a 2 stage compressor which I don't think is the case, should include the XC16-024 and not the XC14-024 -- however none of the other quotes have a 2 stage condenser so I think that's a typo).

The Carrier Infinity furnace, while it doesn't require the Infinity control, becomes a much better system when using the Infinity thermostat in terms of comfort control and diagnostics -- expect to have a price increase, however, since the thermostats themselves are very expensive. Something to look into -- and if you switch the Comfort air conditioner outside to a Performance series model, you'll get diagnostics on it through the user interface. Whether these bells and whistles are worth it is up to you and something to discuss with your dealer. For the other systems, while the 6000 is a great thermostat, I prefer the Honeywell Pro 8000 or better yet 9000 (IAQ model) which can be set up to dehumidify (sometimes I'm hesitant to recommend it since it requires an installer that knows what they're doing when it comes to wiring them to dehumidify with the blower).

I agree that the Lennox furnace is oversized -- shouldn't need 90k.

Hey Ryan

thanks for responding. while all the suggestions/upgrades you mention, they do come with a cost.

what do you think about the HP option?

and while that is a Carrier 80% Infinity furnace, what about the thermidistat over the Infinity controller as a less expensive option.

Bst Regards,
TD

Hi TD,

No problem. Unfortunately, yes, if the homeowner asked the dealer for an upgraded price, I imagine it would be too steep to justify for a smaller place.

For an interior unit that probably doesn't have much of a large heating requirement or large gas bill, I would forgo the heat pump idea and stick with gas heat, even though it is 80% efficient. In this case the homeowner would look for a qualifying a/c system, 16 SEER/13 EER.

I think the thermidistat is a great choice for this system, as I'm sure you agree, if the Infinity controller is out of the picture.

Have a good weekend.

considering that the town-home is an interior unit to me means it must have a light heating and cooling load. If your going to spend the money for A/C you might as well just upgrade to a heatpump.

I see alot of townhomes in my area that don't have gas heat. They just have straight heat-pump with electric backup.

Try this method. Call some contractors and ask what they want for just A/C installed. If you get some fair prices then ask the heatpump upgrade. It shouldn't be much money. Some contractors want to charge a huge amount of extra money for a heatpump. I've heard these contractors talk before. They talk about how complicated they are. Its not that big of a deal. Its a regular A/C with more controls. Ofcourse you need backup heat for when it goes into defrost and it can't keep up.

Do you ever get paper advertisements in the mail with many different categories? I'm looking at one right now. Its called JD dollar stretcher. They have some HVAC contractors listing price for 95% furance and 15 seer A/C for $5,000. You should be able to get a fair price.

Maybe contractors are so busy because the tax credit is running out they feel they can charge whatever they want thru the rest of the year.

@Tiger and Ryan

One contractor came in tonight and told me that if I went to a 2.5 ton, then I would have a lot of noisy ducts.

Should I stick to a 2 ton??

Also, in the summer the second floor is always hot. Any solutions?
Thx

Lennox XC14

2 Stage/Variable Speed
CS7000 Comfort Series Thermostat
Merv 16v Media Filter
Montgomery County permit & inspection
2 years Labor
10 years Parts
20 years Heat Exchanger
10 years Compressor

$7,477 (he said this model qualifies for rebate)