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Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane Furnace
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Posted by mojo_nm (My Page) on Fri, Oct 30, 09 at 17:11
| Hello, first let me say I usually hang out at the Kitchen Table forum and don't know much about the HVAC subject. Now, our 15 yr. old Frazier-Johnson Model #PBKM LD20 N140C high efficiency (My husband thinks it is 60,000 BTU) propane furnace suddenly stopped working last night - fan ran but blew cold air up through floor registers (yes we have plenty of propane), does have electronic ignition and that is what I think is wrong but just a guess. This furnace was put in when we built the house 15 years ago. We live in Southern New Mexico Sacramento Mountains at 7300 feet elevation. Of course we just got our first extremely early snow and cold temps (22-32F) the past couple days. That is ordinarily December weather. As we wait for a service man to diagnose and repair it occurred to me to ask about a high eff replacement - would we save enough on propane to pay for replacing the furnace? We also have a Vermont Castings wood stove in the living room but we are getting older (mid-60's) and as you know wood has escalated in price as the other fuels go up. Our propane reached a high of $2.85/gal last year. We just got a quote of $280/cord for ponderosa pine this year. Anyway, our only choices for fuel are propane,wood or electric. No fuel oil available here. The house is roughly 2000sf, well insulated and double pane windows and wood construction cedar siding. My other question is what is "load calculation"? I know this was never done when the house was built. Please give me your best thoughts on this - don't want to spend money unnecessarily but this furnace sucks fuel bigtime and I don't want to just get the existing one fixed and then end up having more expensive repairs/replacement in a year or so. Thanks, Molly |
Follow-Up Postings:
RE: Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane Furnace
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| Should have added it is a forced air furnace. The first house we had out here we also had built and it had a zoned boiler. Loved it but there is a huge problem finding anyone here who knows how to properly install boilers. Thanks again, Molly |
RE: Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane Furnace
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| Guess I didn't use an alluring enough heading subject. All help vastly appreciated. Molly |
RE: Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane Furnace
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| I can't find any information on the furnace that you currently have. Does it vent through plastic pipe or does it have a metal vent? At the worst it is probably an 80% efficient furnace (metal vent) Switching to an 92-95% furnace would save some money, and if you tell me what your Heating bill for the year is, I can tell you about how much you would save. (note, I need to know how much is heating - not hot water and stove, if those are propane too). If you go electric, it would need to be a heat pump to be competitive in operating costs. I don't know if a heat pump is appropriate for your area or not. Make sure that you have addressed insulation issues. If it is a newer house, I would guess that it is insulated well, but that's the first thing to look at. A load calculation (Manual J) is done by the HVAC company to properly size a furnace. It's a good idea to do it when replacing a furnace or A/C to make sure that the equipment is properly sized. |
RE: Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane Furnace
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| Thank you for your answer. I'm not sure what you mean by vent - the pipe that goes to the chimney? If so, that is metal. Since the furnace is located in the tall crawl space under the house (more like a basement with a dirt floor. Furnace located on a cement pad. Now if vent means the piping to floor registers that is part metal and part flexible (insulated?) plastic. I cannot give you an accurate amount of heating for the year since we have been using some wood and the rest propane. When we use only propane for the month we use about 150.4 gals and last year the price was about $2.85/gal. We normally have to heat a little bit in November, then full time in December, January, February and only part-time in March, April and none in May. May would be the month we shut down the furnace and start up the evaporative cooler on until October. This year the cold snap with snow came really early. As for insulation the crawl space foundation walls are insulated with 1 1/2" styrofoam rigid sheets and the floor insulated with fiberglass batts probably 12" thick. The walls have several layers of various insulation and I don't know the final R-value but high. Same deal with ceiling to roof - that is filled with blown insulation that is 12" or better. As for the wood heat that has gotten very expensive also and I am trying to look ahead to the point where we cannot carry and chop wood (Mid-60's now)so don't want to count that in to the final picture. All help is appreciated. Molly |
RE: Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane Furnace
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| Molly, I was talking about the pipe that goes to the chimney. Since that is metal, you have a furnace that is no more than 82% efficient. New gas furnaces are 92-95% efficient. The 95% or above furnaces qualify for the 30% federal tax credit. There may also be state credits. This is a credit, not a deduction, but you should consider how it would work with your tax situation. If all of your heating were done with gas, a 95% furnace would save you about 18% or $300 a year over your current furnace. Propane is a very expensive form of fuel. My guess is that there is little competition to drive down prices and I don't think it's regulated either. Too bad you don't have access to natural gas. Something that I would do is have an energy audit. It sounds as if your home is well insulated... but something seems like it doesn't quite add up. I don't know if it is the altitude, if you are pulling in outside air for your wood burner, etc. It just seems like you are spending a lot of money on heating. How big is your house? |
RE: Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane Furnace
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| Hi Jake, Thanks for the answers. You are 100% right about the lack of competition. We can't have natural gas because we are a little better than 1/2 way up a mountain and once you get out of the nearest large size town (Alamogordo) no one has access to natural gas. That also means the town at the top of th mountain, Cloudcroft, doesn't have natural gas either plus our electric company here is a rural co-op so they will not be putting it in lines for nat gas. Don't know why fuel oil is not available here but I kind of think the switch is away from that form of heat anyway. I agree we lose heat, the only thing that helps is the short heating season and we usually don't have any temps much below 30. Where would I go to get this energy audit done? The house is just shy of 2000 sq ft. on one floor but with 14' cathedral ceiling in the living room, elsewhere regular 8' ceilings. The air for the wood stove comes from inside while the fire is burning. Once the fire is out we try to remember to shut the dampers (it has 2) so the cold air won't come down the chimney. Thank you again for your suggestions. Molly |
RE: Bump to top Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane F
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| Just trying to get this back to top so Jake will see it. |
RE: Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane Furnace
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one other thing that works good in some areas and saves a lot of money. If you have enough LP co. in your area, you can buy your own tank instead of renting or lease in. This way you can
buy from who ever you want and you can pre-buy all you gas for the winter at one time and get locked into the same price.. Check on several co. and see what they say. Later paulbm |
RE: Definition of terms and High Efficiency Propane Furnace
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| Molly, Something seems off. It's too much money for that size of house and the climate. It gets below zero here at times (as in -10) and my (natural gas) bill is $33 a month all year for a house half the size of yours. Start by talking to someone at the electric utility for someone to do an energy audit. You need someone who can really look at things and not give you just the easy answers. If that doesn't work, check at a library or a nearby university. You may be in a situation where a heat pump would be a competitive source of heat. While you are doing research, ask about that as well. Keep in mind your stove is using conditioned air from the house to burn and then that is being replaced by cold air infiltrating from around the house. Ditto with the furnace.
A new furnace would get its combustion air from the outside. |
RE: Definition of terms and High Efficiency 2Propane Furnace
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| Hello, well the service man got here and said we needed to remove the second filter inside the furnace since we had a filter in the cold air return. He also said our furnace was too big for the house - 170,000 BTU's (doesn't sound right but his knowledge is part of what we pay for). It is fixed at any rate - simple, he took out the second filter and threw it away. Apparently the furnace had a sensor that shut off the unit when it was getting good air flow. Now he is going to give us quote on an upgraded furnace 95% efficiency and while we are waiting I will try and find an energy audit. Thanks again for your help. Molly |
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