You answered your question with your next to last statement.

Forget Payne and go Carrier Infinity or sister company Bryant Evolution.

2 systems at least.

You can use Infinity zoning controls with Infinity HVAC for main floor and basement.

Dealer must have demonstrated experience with zoning and ductwork design/sizing.

Prepare for a high price.

IMO

Thanks Tigerdunes and Mike for your input. It is much appreciated.

We are building this home in Central NJ -30 min north of Princeton.

I love the Carrier Infinity, but was wondering if the high price is for the marketing or if there's a comparable system that isn't so expensive. Is the Bryant Evolution similar to the Carrier Infinity?

I would hate to pay $1M and be uncomfortable with the temperature. I would rather ditch other upgrades than sacrifice HVAC quality.

Since the first floor has very high ceilings all the way through to the 2nd floor in the Family Room and the Foyer, would it make sense to have an appropriately sized 2 zone system for the top 2 floors (like a Carrier Infinity) and a separate system that is not so expensive for the basement since there's not so much air shared with it as there is between the top 2 floors? Or does it not matter if the 2 zone system is for the main floor and the basement?

What middle of the road reliable system would you recommend for the basement? Can this be a single staged furnace like the base Payne model they include? I know variable stage means more comfortable temperature control, but it is the basement. We will have a pool table there and primarily is the space for the kids to play in.

Bryant Evolution is basically identical to Carrier Infinity except for data plate and cabinetry.

You have told us very little about the size and design of your home, especially the second floor.

I have not heard anything to suggest a separate system for the basement. How far along is construction? You need to get some dealers involved. Qualify their experience in zoning. Have available a separate set of house plans with details. Let them provide a man J for correct sizing separated out for each zone/living area.

Carrier/Bryant have the best integrated residential system under one brand.

Why build an expensive home and put in a cheap low end HVAC system? Think about that question.

IMO

I am also in Central NJ. I can recommend a very good Carrier dealer which installed my furnaces and ACs. You may be beyond his service area, but it is worth a phone call. Send me an email if you are interested.

Tigerdunes, I agree that HVAC is v. important. I said that I would rather give up other upgrades for a better HVAC system. I chose our Carrier Infinity system when we replaced our old HVAC system 7 years ago, so I do not intend on buying an expensive home with a cheap low end HVAC system.

I'm asking online to be prepared as possible knowing that the dealer's base HVAC system is a Payne and considered low end. The builder, of course, will say it's an excellent system and that they have done the math to make sure they calculate the load, yet some do it based on sq feet and others will actually input all the detailed parameters. Every HVAC guys says they know what they're doing and that the system they're selling is the best. What is a consumer to do?

Since it is a builder for a new development, I doubt that I will be able to use my own HVAC installer or put out bids. I will have to use the builder's HVAC guy and ask a lot of questions.

I've seen HVAC guys (on another forum) who say that Payne has 90% of the same parts as a Carrier, so I'm trying to separate out a good system from an overhyped marketed system. This is true of many products, so I always research to better understand what makes one system more valuable than another to decide if those "extras" are worth it to me.

Others have said that Carrier is the top of the line, then Bryant, and then Payne - all owned by the same mother company. I know even within each of these brands, there are lower level models. It's all marketing and establishing niches.

You, yourself, say that Bryant is the same as Carrier, yet from a marketing standpoint, Carrier is supposed to be a higher brand. Online, there are HVAC professionals who don't like Carrier quality (but admit that the Infinity system is good).

We have not started construction as we are waiting for permits to be approved. But, I don't want them submitting plans without my input b/c they are not likely to ask me since most consumers don't usually input on their HVAC plans.

Our 2nd floor is 5 bedrooms and 3 baths at about 1800 sf with 2 large openings down to foyer and family room with ceiling heights to the 2nd floor ceiling. First floor is 2900 sf and walk out (not walk up) basement has about 1800 sf finished.

Intuitively, i would think one system to comfortably control all 3 levels would be challenging and depend on a very good installer, which I have to say I can't always assume we will have.

It's less about the brand than the model within the brand. The Carrier builder unit and Bryant builder unit are exactly the same as the Payne builder unit.

Go up a step on Carrier/Bryant and you get a US made unit instead of a Mexican made unit, and a little bit less noise. Go up another step and you get better protection for the outdoor coil for increased durability, high and low pressure switches to protect the compressor, a sound blanket on the compressor to reduce noise further. Go up another step and you get a 2 speed compressor. Another step and you get Infinity compatibility. Yet another step and you get a variable speed compressor. Each step gets you more efficiency as well.

Go up a step in Payne and you get... well, not much, since Mexican made builder grade units are the only thing that Payne sells.

In my opinion, when you're upgrading, you get more bang for your buck upgrading the indoor unit than the outdoor unit, especially in the North. I would want 2 stages of heat on the furnaces minimum, and a variable speed blower. For even more comfort you could step up to modulating. For the outdoor unit, I would definitely want something above builders grade, but not worry about going super high on SEER. Something in the 13-15 SEER range that's better built than the bottom of the line units. The Performance Series would be Carrier's version of this, but all the manufacturers have an equivalent. If you still had some of your budget left over you could step up to a higher end outdoor unit if you wanted even less noise, a 2 speed compressor, or a more aesthetically pleasing unit. But know that in most cases, your chances of a reasonable payback time would be slim to none.

>Intuitively, i would think one system to comfortably control all 3 levels would be challenging and depend on a very good installer, which I have to say I can't always assume we will have.

This is good thinking, especially since it seems like you'll have little to no control over who installs this system. I rarely recommend zoning systems unless I know the contractor. Not because I think zoning systems are bad, or don't work, but correctly doing a zone system is far more difficult than multiple systems, and the risks of equipment failure, poor energy efficiency, and poor comfort are just too big to take if they can't be trusted to do it right.

Don't kid yourself. Equipment matters especially with zoning, ductwork, and dealer's qualifications in this area of HVAC.

What surprises me is how homeowners allow their builder to run all over them especially with cheap HVAC and exorbitant pricing. You are paying the bills aren't you?

TD

If you have the time, study the product data sheets from the Payne, Carrier, and Bryant equipment. What I have found that at the low end of the line, the Carrier and Payne equipment appear to be the same. They are bought priced to be attractive to builders who are trying to save money on HVAC. I would not recommend either especially in a new home.

Carrier and Bryant are also the same equipment. However the Carrier brand has a additional models that are not available within the Bryant line up.

My recommendation is to get 95%+ variable speed furnaces with 2-stage ACs for good humidity control. You need two systems and most likely zoning for the first floor and basement. You may not need a humidifer and if you do it can be added later to one of the systems. Demand a copy of the Manual J calculation and review it carefully. Talk to the HVAC contractor directly and ask a lot of questions. Go look at his work on the other installations he is doing and make notes of anything you see that looks bad to you.

Agree with Mike

X2

TD

hvtech42, what you explained was extremely helpful for understanding the key factors. Thank you so much.

Mike and tigerdunes, thank you for pointing out the product data sheets. I definitely will be asking for Manual J & D calculations and probably be back here to share it with you all after I get it.

The builder does say that with finishing the basement, they would zone the first floor and basement on one unit. I just was surprised to see their single stage gas furnace as their base model with a brand I had never heard before when I went to their design center on Sat. I was expecting at least a 2 stage gas furnace. I plan on dealing with the HVAC dealer directly and watching closely throughout the process, but believe upfront planning is critical.

They also offer the Honeywell PRO TH4000 Series thermostat and the F100 Media Air Cleaner. I want to make sure whatever system I buy that the thermostat is the right one for the system I buy.

I'd like to get a good system such that I would not need a separate dehumidifier. We've been very happy with our Carrier Infinity, but it's been 7 years and I didn't know if there are better models or comparable competitor models.

I read something about Infinity not having true demand defrost. Is this necessary? If so, is there a similar model to Infinity that has it?

Also, the ceiling of the foyer and the Family Room (17' x 23'5") on the first floor go all the way up to the 2nd floor ceiling (I guess that would be 17' height in these spaces.)

So, it would seem the 2nd floor air is shared with the 1st floor through these 2 rooms. Does it make sense to have the first 2 floors zoned and have a separate unit for the basement rather than a separate unit for the bedrooms and a zoned system for the first floor and basement? Or does it not matter which? Please school me.

Thanks.

Humidifiers are always separate pieces of equipment. They can be integrated to work with the thermostat and can operate without having to run the furnace.

Carrier has newer Infinity models and there are models from Trane and Rheem which compete with them.

The demand defrost is used on heat pumps. It makes no sense to get a heat pump with the prices of gas and electricity in NJ. Demand defrost is one of the few things you don't have to worry about.

Two story vaulted ceilings are nice but they present a challenge to heat and cool. This is where a variable speed furnace may help. The placement of returns is important. You may also want to install ceiling fans to help circulate the air.

I have separate systems for each floor in my 2-story house, but I have eight foot ceiling everywhere. The bedrooms are all on the upper floor. This set up works very well for set backs and comfort. The upper floor can be set back during the day when everyone is up, and the lower floor can be set back when everyone is sleeping. This arrangement should work for your house.

Yes, I plan on installing ceiling fans - I'm a big fan of those and it's a minimum requirement especially for the family room.

I understand the idea of setting back the temp during the day when no one is using it. That's what I do in my home now since we have 2 zones (though yours is 2 separate units)

Is there a difference between 2 zone system for first 2 floors and separate unit in basement vs. separate unit for bedrooms and 2 zone system for first floor and basement?

I sent you a message, Mike. Thanks.

I don't have first hand experience with zoning.But my general feeling is the contractor has to plan and size the zones so that the air flow is sufficient no matter how many zones are operating. It takes expertise and experience to do it correctly. My perception many HVAC contractors are not good at zoning and create a lot of problems. On the other hand a separate system is somewhat more fool proof. You don't have the variable of dampers opening and closing. There is less chance of screwing it up. However as we have seen many times on this forum contractors still can install duct work and HVAC systems incorrectly.

You house is so big that it may it need more than 5 tons of cooling. This would rule out having one system for the first and second floor. Even if the load calculation was under 5 tons, I would still not recommend that arrangement. Basements usually are a small heating load, and usually no cooling load. It makes a lot more sense to zone the basement off the first floor since it would require little to heat it, and nothing to cool it.

I got your email, but your email address is marked as private. You can either change it so I can see it, or send me another message with your email address. I will respond when I get it.

I would like to suggest, depending on the design temperatures, that you consider more insulation in both the walls and ceiling. I would not tolerate less than R-19 in the walls and would prefer r-25. I would also want r-50 in the ceiling.

On a different though related subject, if you have a gas cooktop and a decent sized vent hood, you should talk to these HVAC guys about implementing MakeUp Air (MUA).

thanks Mike for your explanation. I understand the rationale now.

weedmeister, my research suggested the same as you - to increase the insulation. I'm also going to ask for attic insulation as well and the project manager did say that we would have to incorporate MUA, since I will have a remote 1200 cfm blower for my ventilation hood for my gas cooktop which is powered almost like a commercial one.

Thank you everyone for your comments and guidance. It is much appreciated. We still have to go thru the permit process so nothing has been submitted yet. This is why I'm researching now b/c the builder will be more resistant to changes after permits are approved.

I want to tell the builder upfront what I'm looking for, why, and my need for an installer who is qualified to deliver. I just need to come in with a little bit of knowledge and not sound like an idiot just copying what some HVAC guys say online without understanding what I'm saying.

I researched all this 7 yrs ago (and challenged a number of HVAC sales guys who came with a proposal, and one sales manager asked me if I wanted a job!) which was why I bought the Infinity then, but need a refresher. Sleep deprivation and kids emptied out my brain.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Adding more wall insulation is a good idea but it is going to be expensive. I question the return on investment in central NJ based on what I have been paying to heat and cool my house for the last two years.

Adding additional attic insulation is easy and cheap. I prefer the batt insulation over the loose blown in type.