Energy Kinetics System 2000 hybrid Oilheat
Our fuel company is offering us two different systems to replace our failing oil burner.
One is a Peerless model WBV-04-WPCO high effeciency cast iron boiler wtih a Beckett Flame Retention head oil burner at about $6K.
The other system is the Energy Kinetics 2000, model EK-2, integrated heat and hot water system with a Beckett 3450 flame rentention head burner at $9K.
The latter promises to give up to 40% savings each year on oil consumption.
Any experience out there wtih the Energy Kinetics system?
We are trying to decide whether it is worth the extra $3K outlay to hope we do get the energy savings going forward.
Comments (57)
jimcolonial
14 years agoVery nice post dapoppa, annaleef the system does not produce creosote, an oil fired unit burns at near perfect combustion the only thing it will produce is very light soot or ash, system 2000 doesn't recommend cleaning the unit for the first 5 years however the oil filter may need to be changed depending on your oil tanks condition, the unit comes with a gauge that will tell you when its time to change it. A lot of confusion is simply, people just don't know enough about the unit to give a fair opinion, they are top of the line units compared to anything on the market, you simply wont beat the fuel savings or quietness of this system. Im happy to answer any questions you might have or anyone else for that matter
sawmill
Original Author14 years agoThanks, Jim and Dapoppa, for the additional details.
We pulled the trigger and ordered the system, which will be installed in 2 weeks. We are looking forward to good results, but will pop in again if we have further questions.You have been very helpful with your first hand experiences.
jimcolonial
14 years agoannaleef, sorry, misspoke about cleaning the unit, it should be checked out yearly for proper operation and peak performance, hope i didn't cause much confusion, i`m glad to hear you went with it you wont be disappointed
chipster_2007
14 years agoGreat review on the Energy Kinetics System but I am told that it does not work well for older homes with radiators. I live in the Northeast and need a new heating system. I did talk with my oil dealer said this could be a problem. However he did say that this unit could be converted to gas if in the future I wanted to convert. Does anyone have any info about how difficult this would be if I went this route? Thanks
jimcolonial
14 years agoThe system 2000 will work well with radiators, you will most likely need an injection loop for the higher volume of water and basket strainers but its not a big deal, as far as converting from oil to gas just a burner change and thats about it
sawmill
Original Author14 years agoNew system was installed 2 weeks ago and it seems fine. It is certainly much quieter than our old oil burner. In fact, I hear nothing! With our local oil company, the system manager is covered under the annual maintenance contract, which is only about $20 more than the contract on our old system.
jimcolonial
14 years agoannaleef, Im glad to hear you went with the system 2000, its a great unit and you`ll be very happy with it and more comfortable than ever
baymee
14 years agoAs for steel boilers, as long as they don't leak, they will last indefinitely. It's routine in Pennsylvania to see 50+ year old coal boilers in the used market.
chipster_2007
14 years agoThanks JimColonial for the info re older homes. I wish I could find people with older homes who have had this installation for a few seasons and how it compares with their old system. I am afraid the heat won't come up fast enough to heat this 8 room home with radiators. I have asked for references but I only obtained 1 thus far.
dapoppa
14 years agoThe System 2000 works quite well with radiator systems as long as it is piped correctly. Using a primary/secondary setup allows even heat through all the radiators without overheating any of them or the house.
redbaronwww
14 years agoI have a System 2000 and have noticed black soot on the floors by my baseboards. Any idea what this is from. I called the dealer and was told to replace my chimney liner which I did, but still have this problem.
Help!sawmill
Original Author14 years agoHave no idea - we have not experienced that problem. Good luck on tracking down the source.
sawmill
Original Author14 years agoIn response to an off-line question that might be helpful to others:
Yes, we installed the System2000 in early October and have been very happy. You can't hear the boiler start and stop and although we don't have a year to year comparison yet, we believe we are burning significantly less oil. The hot water is not a problem. I don't believe one person can run it out of hot water. It fills our 70 gallon whirlpool tub just fine. We often take long showers back to back without running out of hot water. We've had no problem running the DW and washing machine without regard to someone being in the shower.
There are two things that are different about the system.
First, your basement will be cooler since the boiler only runs when heat is called for by one of the zones. If you have exposed copper pipes in your basement carrying the hot water to your air handlers or radiators, it won't be a huge difference, but it will be noticeable.
Second, when a zone calls for heat, cool air will come out of the register for a minute while the boiler heats up. If you sit by one of these registers and it becomes annoying, they can install a thermostat in the air handler so the fan won't start until the air is warm. Better to do this at installation, rather than on a second service call ( although my oil company didn't charge for the followup). This won't apply if you have baseboard hot water.
We like the system, but we bought it mainly for the fuel savings.
We are a three adult family/3,300 sq. ft. single family home in Connecticut with oil fired forced air. We paid $9,045 including taxes and labor installed, but labor costs are high here. Included in that price was an energy tax credit of several hundred dollars.
chipster_2007
14 years agoCould you please comment on your energy tax credits...I was under the impression that there was only a $300 tax credit for the attached water heater. I am unaware of any further tax credits on the new oil fired boiler. Could you comment.
zl700
14 years ago85% + on boilers, all including oil, and listed by Energy Star to qualify for Federal tax credit
http://downloads.energystar.gov/bi/qplist/boilers_prod_list.pdf
chipster_2007
14 years agoThanks very much re federal tax credit. The oil company salesperson stated there was only the tax credit on the hot water tank. Annaleef, could you please comment on what type of hot water tank did you get; was it the one sold by energy kinetics or a stainless steel one? Thanks
chipster_2007
14 years agoSorry, I may be mistaken but looking at the federal tax credit guidelines, the replacement for oil/gas boilers/furnaces must have an AFUE of greater than 90%. The Energy Kinetics has a rating of 86-87% and DOES NOt qualify. I have called the company on this and they confirm this.
dapoppa
14 years agoIt's true that the System 2000 does not qualify for the tax credit, BUT, the money you will save in lower heating costs more than makes up for it. The AFUE system was designed for warm air furnaces, not hot water boilers. Big difference in the way they operate.
Efficiency testing for boilers measures only steady state operation at a temperature that is unrealistically low, not off cycle losses or stack losses. These both have a large influence on total system efficiency but are not figured in AFUE. The typical boiler heats and distributes heart until the thermostat is satisfied then everything just stops, so heat left in the boiler is lost up the chimney.
Warm air furnaces heat up, distribute the heat and cool the furnace down at the end of the cycle. System 2000 does the same so no heat is wasted.
sawmill
Original Author14 years agoWe kept our old commercial water heater when we had the new system installed. We did get the credit on the bill that I mentioned, but I cannot put my hands on the receipt at the moment to give you the fine print.
dapoppa
13 years agoNo, it's not. When the thermostat is satisfied, the remaining heat in the boiler is purged to the last zone that was active. That occurs gradually so the zone doesn't overheat. It also means that the time span before the next cycle is longer. My own house has about 1400 sq ft and none of the zones overheats. We have excellent hot water and the fact that it's very quiet when running is a plus because the boiler room is next to our computer room.
ferrucci
13 years agoThanks dapoppa. I was also concerned that I will be locked into having only my current oil/service provider maintain the unit because no one else is qualified. I did not find the unit or Energy Kinetics on some boiler/furnace review sites. Would you know why?
dapoppa
13 years agoTruthfully I don't. I know dozens of people who had the sytem installed in their homes over the years and haven't heard any really negative comments. I believe a few had some issues but they were fuel quality related and you can have that with any oil system.
The manufacturer is really good at helping techs service the system if they have questions about it, whether they work for a dealer or not. I can service my own because I've been an oil burner tech for 40 years. That leaves me free to buy by price, however, I'm more comfortable staying with the same company and we have a good business relationship.
jmerritt_odu_edu
13 years agoWe have had a System 2000 in our 1920s [1800 sq/radiators] house since 2007 and I have kept track of our oil consumption pre and post. We use it for heat and hot water. Our consumption went from about 600 gals/year to around 400 gals/year, a significant savings. It cost us about $8000, but our oil service threw in 5 years of service contract. The only problem we had was from the original "sentinel" monitoring system, which came in through the phone line and was supposed to remotely monitor the system. In fact, as we speak, they are removing the monitor system for good, since it has caused more trouble than is was worth. The boiler, on the other hand, provides near endless, consistent hot water and with a programable thermostat, has kept our house very comfortable in the winter. I would recommend it for older houses that already have a radiator/oil heat system in place.
dapoppa
13 years agoJane, the Sentinel system that you had the problem with was not made or provided by Energy Kinetics for installation with System 2000. It's not offered by them as an option or add-on.
CPAMIKE
13 years agoI am looking at the system 2000 to replace my Burnam V7H. I would appreciate it if those of you who purchased the System 2000 could comment on the fuel savings, and the annual maintenance costs you have expeerienced.
mbp2fla
11 years agoi put a ek2000 in my home 12 years ago i only had 1 proplem 5 years ago $125 simple fix the system is great & very quiet we have never run out of hot water with 4 people showering in a row. I live in north west NJ and i am moving further west building a new home & guess what looking into another ek2000 even tho the price is $8500 for the furnace & prob another 8k to go hwbb the builder is giving me 4k credit on the goodman oil forced hot air system that was to be put in, needless to say i have been happy for 12 years & going to be a returning ek2000 customer
amazer98
11 years agoWe installed a System 2000 last January to replace the aging Weil-McLean boiler in our 27 year old house. I was sold on the energy-saving theory behind System 2000, along with a number of positive reviews I read on various heating forums.
Obviously, the winter of 2011-12 was a mild one here in southern NH, so it can be a bit tricky to figure out our oil savings on an apples vs apple basis, at least until another couple of years go by.. However, we had an oil delivery at the end of March 2012, so I can compare our fuel usage from then to our most recent filling on Nov.10.
I keep records of all our fillings, and compared this recent period since we started using the System 2000 to several earlier years, estimating consumption for the several days difference between deliveries in one year vs another. On average, we are saving 30-32% over the April thru mid-November timeframe� (about 300 gallons on prior system vs 205 gallons on System 2000). A good chunk of this is obviously used for hot water.
One big advantage of the System 2000 is that it�s unbelievably quiet. It sounds like a microwave when it runs, as opposed to a hairdryer. Since the boiler is right under our living room, that makes a difference!
All in all, I am very impressed with the System 2000. If you gotta burn oil -- and here in New England it the cheapest fuel after natural gas and wood pellets-- this is the best way to go.
By the way, I have no real concerns about what would happen if the Energy manager control panel malfunctioned after the warranty period. Energy Kinetics has a trade-in policy in which you pay some nominal fee for a new or reconditioned board, should it come to that. Our local oil company installs enough of these systems that I'm sure any problems could be remedied quickly. OK, call me naive, but I'm not going to sweat this point.
sawmill
Original Author11 years agoLeatherfan:
In response to your email, yes we did install the System 2000 in October 2009. We have been extremely happy with it ever since.
See our post on February 28, 2010 for more details. Highly recommend the system for efficiency and savings. Good luck.isavedonheating
10 years agoDo not listen to the nay sayers on here. Plus, their info dates to 2009. Several oil dealers in NH sell and service Energy Kinetics System 2000. I have saved over $1,700 each year for the past 2 years with the System 2000. After a hefty NH rebate, my net price was about $7,000. Do the arithmetic and tell me this is not a good choice? About a 4 year payback so don't listen to nonsense. I hardly miss what used to be a $4k annual oil bill! All the parts are stock...Beckett, Honeywell, etc. It is advanced but installers must be trained. Just get a few quotes and pick an installer that you feel keeps his team well trained. I went with a reputable oil company and the installers knew what they were doing. If you live for the day and can't wait for the payback and ensuing gravy train of savings, go buy an inferior product that will save money up front being penny wise but be pound foolish in years to come. Btw, the central computer panel has a 5 year warranty. This is the way to go if oil is your only option. Best if you can do System 2000 on natural gas. Propane just as expensive as oil and geothermal is very disruptive with about $25k cost but low operating cost. Payback on geothermal more like 10 years.
19oriole60
8 years agoHow did you find out about NH rebates. I am looking now to purchase a system 2000 but looking for rebate.
MzTeaze
7 years agoDoes the System 2000 work with a STEAM radiator system?. Our current Burnham V8 boiler is disintegrating after 12 years. This will be the THIRD boiler replacement in 17 years. The original boiler we replaced 17 years ago was over 70 years old, not efficient at all but lasted FOREVER. We do not want to invest in another system that needs to replaced every 10 years.
We live in Northern NJ so we can use either oil or natural gas, hence our interest in the System 2000. Our house was built in late 1920s and is about 1500 sq foot.Jay R
7 years agoI would contact Energy Kinetics, and they will put you in touch with the right person. Very good customer service. I believe they can do steam, but I'm not sure. All I know is that their equipment is very well designed and efficient. They have excellent oil and gas boilers. These systems, if nstalled right, will last 30-40 years in my opinion.
DaveL
7 years agoI'm looking for information about the System 2000 regarding how much oil it uses to heat hot water during the summer months. Has anyone kept track of this?
dapoppa
7 years agoWe use about 10 gallons a month for hot water during the non heating season. We have energy saving appliances and shower head. We have never run out of hot water regardless of how much hot water is being used. Never got a shot of cold water in the shower if someone flushed the toilet, either.
In response to an earlier poster, Energy Kinetics does not make steam boilers.Jay R
7 years agoI agree, my system makes lots of hot water! We only have two people in our family. No problem with making all the hot water you want. It's been great for me!
dapoppa
7 years agoWe only have two but did have three for quite a long time and four when my folks stayed with us.
If you have a situation with a large tub or high output shower heads figure on an 80 gallon storage tank. Standard is a 40.
DaveL
7 years agoThanks again, dapoppa. We also have only two people right now.
Jay, I'm not concerned about whether it makes enough hot water - all indirects do that well enough. I'm interested in specific data about how much oil the System 2000 uses in the summer months to only heat domestic hot water.
I'm interested in this because I use ductless minisplits to heat my house during the shoulder months and my current old boiler is only used during Dec - Feb. Therefore I am looking for an oil fired boiler with indirect system that is very efficient at heating hot water during the 9 months of the year when I won't be using the boiler to heat the house.Jay R
7 years agoI do know the ENergy Kinetics units are very efficient at heating hot water. I would contact Jay McKay at Energy Kinetics and talk to him. I know they have installed some units being that in addition to home heating -are also used to heat the water for swimming pools, and I believe the web site shows one of these units.
Jay R
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoAnyone considering these boilers should find professional installers who install Energy Kinetics AND other boilers - and can be impartial and unbiased in their advice. Many installers have their favorites based on their own biases, or don't want to admit there is something better out there. I talked with installers from Alaska and Maine who use Energy Kinetics units in their installations. I figure if they are good in those cold states they would be good in PA where I live. I liked the Energy Kinetics design because it has been around for 40 years and the energy saving design does not rely on outdoor resets or very problematic computer controls. EK units use a basic digital energy manager which is not overly complex. Almost all of the parts are standard parts too. Also, steel lasts just as long as cast iron without all the mass to heat up and maintain temperture.
Euro Group
4 years agoHow much would it cost to purchase a EK Resolute nowadays? I've been reading up on this boiler and would like to install in my newly purchased house....
I see people quoting $9,000 up above... Does that include installation? Any rebates in NY/Westchester since the Resolute is over 90% efficient?
Thank you to all of you for the input in advance. Cheers!HU-833763140
4 years agoHello,
Does anyone knows a reliable and experienced installer of EK oil boiler systems in my area?
Zip 01701
I am looking to replace my 30 year old Burnham oil boiler.
I prefer not to go with oil delivery companies, as they only service systems for their customers.
Any input is greatly appreciated.
mike_home
4 years agoContact Energy Kinetics and ask if a dealer services your zip code. Here is the information from their web site.
If you would like to receive a FREE Savings Analysis, to get connected to an ENERGY KINETICS' CERTIFIED Dealer or Heating Professional to obtain a QUOTE, or to have your questions answered, call us at 800-323-2066 or simply fill out the following form.HU-833763140
4 years agoI contacted them last week. They gave me 3 companies. 2 were oil companies and only install, if I switch to their oil delivery. Last one looks like a new one. Their sales didn't know they install EK systems. I emailed EK to get more installers, hopefully they get back to me soon.
mike_home
4 years agoYou want an installer who has experience installing the boiler you want to purchase. Find out how long you are committed to buy oil from the delivery company. You could leave them once your commitment is satisfied.
Thomas Hutchings
2 years agoThis is totally worth it after being in thre heating buisness over 30yrs the system 2000 is the best i would work there if asked nothing is waisted and it is as quite as a cat walking on a carpet wearing slippers
Jay R