That seems like an awful lot of BTU firepower. 8 tons 3900 sq ft.

These are straight AC systems or HP systems?

For the money you are looking at, I would ask dealer about the possibility of zoning controls off one system. Ductwork is located in attic?

Not a fan of CleanEffects. Make certain you understand your responsibility for cleaning/maintenance schedule.

IMO

Thanks Tiger. Straight AC. House is about 30 years old, not very tight - all single pane double hung windows and a lot of them. Still need to see the load calcs though. All ductwork is in the attic with a lot of room to maneuver. I'm thinking about adding a third car garage bay and putting a 20x20' bonus room in the attic.

Assuming the equipment is sized correctly (which I agree needs to be looked at more closely), does the equipment pricing look right? The rough pricing I've seen online for. 5 ton xl20i is about 5.5k, but maybe that doesn't include the air handler?

As far as pricing goes and putting all rebates aside, I think the dealer pricing is high considering these are straight AC systems. I assume both systems qualify for Fed Tax Credit. I would confirm with dealer. Any need for a heat strip?

I hope Ryan sees this thread and can comment on pricing. Of course this is Trane top of line.

I would ask dealer about the use of zoning controls off one system especially since you obviously are going to have some major ductwork modifications.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sat, Sep 28, 13 at 15:11

Trane is launching its variable speed compressor systems next week( XVi systems). These systems make zoning easier. maybe you should ask about the possibility. To me the pricing is not totally out of line for a good installation. There is a lot of pricey equipment in that quote and appears to be a lot of work involved. Not real keen on going from 2 to 3 tons just on the possibility of a addition later. the 20i will help with the oversizing but why buy the more expensive equipment if you dont need it. just a thought

This post was edited by harlemhvacguy on Tue, Oct 1, 13 at 10:15

I still hope Ryan sees this thread and makes comments.

TD

Thank you all. Second quote came in and it seems more reasonable. The 2nd contractor agrees with harlemhvacguy about sticking with a two ton unit, and suggested that if the addition happens we could put a ductless split system there. This makes a lot of sense to me. Quote came in as:

5 ton RUUD Two-stage UASL060ZJEC/RHPNHM6024JC
$7195 after $1495 FPL and $1200 Ruud rebate
Installation price includes adding two returns, but leaving supply ductwork alone

2 ton RUUD Two-stage UASL024JEC/RHPNHM2421JC
$6243 after $585 FPL and $1200 Ruud rebate

This contractor agreed with the first that return air to the 5 ton unit is drastically low. His solution is to add two returns (one in the MBR which is chronically warm). The first contractor also would add the returns, and also thought a significant amount of ductwork needed to be redone, things like replacing 6" with 8" ducts.

Both companies are well reviewed via word of mouth and Angie's list, although I'm a little perplexed by the lack of detail in both of their proposals.

Interestingly, the 2nd contractor said came right out and said he wouldn't recommend using a Trane unit (I never told him I already had a quote on a Trane system), saying that his company is seeing significant issues with their coils. He told me he could work up a quote using Trane equipment, but that he would have to mark it up given expected warranty issues. By the way, he also provided a quote using Lennox's top tier equipment, but I didn't include it here as it seems high. Not sure what to make of his Trane-bashing. I'm also still waiting to see his load calcs.

Two other contractors coming to visit this week. At this point I'm inclined to go with the 2nd contractor given unless there's a big perceived quality dropoff between the Trane and Ruud units.

Chibear

Several comments

While Rudd/Rheem is solid equipment, I wouldn't put them in the same category as Trane.

The comment about Trane coils is nonsense.

You will need Rudd's proprietary thermostat for these communicating systems that were quoted. Nothing said about this or air filter cabinets. And finally, if you live in a coastal environment, I would inquire with the Rudd dealer about their seacoast shield.

I think the price on the Rudd two ton system is absurd.

IMO

I do think you should get the other quotes you said were coming this week. I am always weary of people that will bash other equipment or other companies. especially unprompted.

Ruud/Rheem equipment is decent equipment. I personally think Trane or Carrier are in there own league especially in the upper seer equipment.

The first quote has more ductwork proposed correct? I would inquire with the other quotes you are getting about whether or not it is needed. Proper ductwork is as important as proper equipment.

Be mindful that the 20 xli equipment is 2 stage 2 compressor. Ruud is 1 two stage compressor. There is a difference.

Thanks Tiger and Harlem.

3rd quote came in yesterday (partially, explained below). This is one of the larger and better reviewed contractors in the area. Interestingly they do a fair amount of work through Costco and are the only sub in the area that gets referrals from them. They only quote Lennox at an initial visit, but if pressed will also quote Rheem/Ruud.

This shop's "comfort specialist" seems to be the most credible for a few reasons (why do all the larger contractors in my area refer to the sales people as "comfort specialists"? Makes them sound like they're in the world's oldest profession...).

1) I've mentioned previously I'd like to do some rezoning, but I haven't gone into detail as I thought it was pretty minor. Our main house was built in 1990 with about 3,000 sf under air. In 1999 a previous owner built an 850 sf addition that includes two kids bedrooms and a bathroom and turned one of the original bedrooms into a play room that you enter to get into the addition (about 150 sf). At that time they put in the two existing units, a 5 ton for the main house and a 2 ton for the addition (I originally said they were Lennox but are actually IPC). Because of the layout, in my mind it makes sense to rezone the playroom so it feeds off the smaller unit. The first two contractors said "no problem, it will just take some additional ductwork (ka-ching) and by the way you might want to make it a 3 ton unit now. 3rd contractor said he wouldn't do this since his load calcs showed it would make a 5 ton unit oversized for the remaining space.

2) Like the other two contractors, he pointed out that the 5 ton unit had serious air flow issues. His recommendation on the return side was the same as the first two(add two returns), but on the supply side it was different. The first contractor suggested increasing the diameter of all the supply ductwork ($1900 worth of work), and the second said supply was not an issue. Third contractor said supply absolutely is an issue (and showed me pictures and sizes of the ducts explaining the airflow through each), but thought the best solution would be to add two medium size supplies. In his opinion, increasing the duct diameters without changing the size of the existing vents would cause problems. Plus, his way is more cost effective, or maybe his pricing is just better.

Additionally, he pointed out that the condenser fan space needs to be adjusted. They are in a fairly tight area, surrounded on three sides by a four foot privacy wall. He would space the condensers further apart and also suggested we have someone cut vent holes into the wall as there isn't enough space to get good ventilation. Great advice. Finally, he showed me pictures of the existing plenum from the two ton unit which is angled like a roof (two 45 degree angles) off the air handler. They would replace this with a box like plenum which he says is better for airflow - makes sense to me.

The Lennox systems seem pricy, about $16,000 total for 5 ton and 2 ton xc21 units with corresponding air handlers (CBX 32MV) and I-comfort controls. He will "throw in" a high efficiency filter set-up - 5" filter at airhandler, removes 95% of microns, $100 replacement cost annually per unit - and a high grade UV light for both.

He's going to give me a quote on the Rheem/Ruud units which I think will come in about $13k, similar to the second contractor.

So is it worth paying almost 25% more for Lennox vs Rheem/Ruud? Per consumer reports the complaints are about the same for both. Is the technology and equipment that much better on the Lennox or am I paying for branding and "american-made?"

And if I'm going to pay about $16k for the Lennox, is it worth paying $17k for the Trane system which as Harlem pointed out are 2 stage 2 compressor and seem superior at higher SEER? If so, I can't use the third contractor because he doesn't sell Trane.

Final contractor is coming in tonight. They are the market leader in the area, sell all makes/models, and have a great reputation, although they are thought to be expensive. I'll update when I get his recommendations/quote. Thanks for your comments and reading through my insanely long posts.

I would not have Lennox and I suspect the Trane dealer's price is negotiable.

You never answered my question about whether you are inland or in a coastal environment.

Go back and read my comment on the Rudd/Rheem quote.

IMO

Thanks Tiger.

I had asked the 2nd contractor for specific information on the thermostat and proposed ductwork changes, but he hasn't responded yet. Regarding air filters, unless I missed something he didn't propose a centralized solution, just maintaining filters at the returns. We are 3.5 miles away from the gulf and don't seem to have any issues from salt air.

Could you please elaborate on your Lennox comment?

Just a personal opinion on Lennox. On the big three major HVAC brands, I put Lennox a very distant third compared to Carrier and Trane.

IMO

A lot hinges on these ductwork modifications. If you take the additional ductwork out of the first quote it is only 14k or so. just from the info I got from you 2 ton is plenty on the addition which would lower the 1st quote further.

The Ruud/rheem quote didn't include near as much ductwork right? Leaving the supply duct alone? That is some of the reason for the cheaper price. Ruud/rheem while cheaper isn't that much different in price on the equipment.
I like Tiger suspect the trane quote is negotiable. It couldn't hurt to ask.

Lennox is not big in my area at all. Don't have enough experience with there quality to offer an opinion.

Correct that Ruud/Rheem quote didn't include ductwork for the supply, but that just made me lose confidence in that contractor since all of the others said it was inadequate. I've asked the Trane contractor for more information to on his proposed ductwork changes to justify the $2650 cost and also to give me his best price on the equipment.

That said, I met with the 4th contractor last night. As mentioned before they are the largest in the area and after meeting with the sales person I can see why. Very thorough, straight forward and knowledgeable. He closely inspected the two-ton ductwork and said it was in great shape, no need to do anything except standard stuff like building a new plenum, raising the air handler level to get better flow from the drain pipe, etc. For the 5 ton he immediately diagnosed the supply and return issues and made reasonable recommendations.

I asked him which manufacturers they typically use and he responded Carrier, Lennox and Rheem, but said they had access to anything if I had a preference. I asked why not Trane and after some prodding he said that for years their firm was the largest Trane residential contractor (I don't know if that's just FL or the country), but after problems over the past 4-5 years, they will only quote on Trane when specifically asked. Later after seeing my attic access he rescinded that, saying the only way to get an air handler larger than 3-ton into the attic (the access door is only 21 inches wide), they would have to saw it in half and use a kit to put it back together, and their firm won't do that because of past experience.

So here's the question: I've met with four well reviewed contractors in my area. Unsolicited, three of them singled out Trane as having issues in Florida (the 3rd quote who recommended Lennox or Ruud also dissed Trane, but I didn't mention it). I appreciate Tiger's comment above, but I'm a big believer in where there's smoke... When I go on this and other boards like hvac-talk I don't see the same anger about Trane. Did some local distributor or Trane company guy piss off a bunch of FL dealers somehow? I don't get it. I don't want to contribute to unsubstantiated rumors, but I'm thinking about asking this question on a separate thread here or at hvac-talk just to get some insight. Thanks again for all your comments.

Trane is a big target. Always has the bullseye on its back.

I think the quality is good. My major complaint is they are behind the curve to Carrier on some of its models mainly condensers as to efficiency especially with furnace combinations.and then there is the pricing. This is more about Trane and their distributors than dealers. Usually they are higher.

Trane bashing is a cottage industry.

IMO

You didn't say much about the prices you got from the last contractor. Did he not give you the prices and equipment he recommends yet?

You need not worry about Trane being a good piece of equipment. That being said it is mechanical thing built by humans that can and never will be perfect. Trane is sometimes a victim of its own reputation. People think since they bought a Trane it should never breakdown. That is nonsense. The important part is to have a company that will stand behind it and fix the issue when it happens. Carrier the same can be said for.

At the end of the day you should go with the contractor and equipment that made YOU feel comfortable. Both knowledge and somewhat price wise.

Thank you both. 4th contractor's quote should arrive late today or Monday, and still have outstanding questions to each of the other three. I"ll let you know what I hear.