mark

no Lennox HPs.

I would stick with the sgl stg Bryant Preferred 15 or Trane's XL15i HP, although you might want to consider a two stg HP for downstairs.

If you do elect dual fuel for either the upstairs or downstairs, I think the 80% eff two stg var speed furnace is more than adequate unless you can get the 94-95% mdl for close to the same price. I live in upstate SC, have a Trane dual fuel system, and est I used only about 50 therms of nat gas for winter heating as my HP carried the load.

not to confuse the issue, but just like Carrier is the sister compant to Bryant, Am Standard is the sister company to Trane. Am Std Heritage 15 HP is the same as Trane's XL15i and normally is less expensive. Only difference is Trane's funky top. But all of these companies should be offering some type of fall rebate program.

One other thought. Load cals are very important.You should insist upon it and get a copy in writing.

IMO

Tigerdunes,
Thanks again for the input and suggestion, it is definitely appreciated.

Can you pull some ARI information on the Trane XL19I Heatpumps with both the 80% and 95% Two Stage Variable Speed Furnaces?

You mention the possibility of going with a 2 Stage Heatpump downstairs and if I go with Trane the previous advice was NOT to use the XL16I so I think the XL19I is the only other option. And I still have to get the price difference from my Trane Rep but I can do that after I see the ARI numbers.

mark

don't like the XL19i because of price,only available in R-22 refrigerant, and poor heating BTUs and HSPF. I wouldn't have it. The Bryant Evolution 16 and 18 would be better choice.

However, here are the AHRI numbers.

with var spd air handler.

1481625 Active Systems XL19I WEATHERTRON TRANE 2TWZ9036C1 2TEE3F40A1 37000 11.50 17.60 32800 8.20 18400 1

with XV80 var speed furnace(80% EFF)

1481646 Active Systems XL19I WEATHERTRON TRANE 2TWZ9036C1 2TXCC060BC3 *UD080R9V3 35000 11.00 16.75 31200 8.50 18300

with 95% XV95 var spd furnace
3000826 Active Systems XL19I WEATHERTRON TRANE 2TWZ9036C1 2TXFH063AS3 *UH3B060ACV3 35000 10.60 16.00 31200 8.90 18500

IMO

Stick with the Trane equipment to get the 10-year parts warranty on XLi equipment in my opinion (comparing Trane to American Standard, not Bryant). Definitely avoid the XL16i. You might want to see if you can find another Bryant dealer to get a quote from. You seem to not be as pleased with the current Bryant dealer. I think Bryant's equipment line as of right now is superior to Trane's. Used to be hard for me to recommend anything other than a Trane, but Carrier/Bryant simply offers better product options at this time. I'm in no way questioning the performance and durability of Trane equipment--I think it's great--but as far as features and options go, Bryant has a better product line.

Based on your input I am now focusing on Trane and Bryant.

Question for tigerdunes and ryan you can add your opinion as well. In an earlier post you mentioned this:

"I would stick with the sgl stg Bryant Preferred 15 or Trane's XL15i HP, although you might want to consider a two stg HP for downstairs."

Question, Why would you recommend putting the two stage HP downstairs vs upstairs?

I believe our Cooling requirements are higher upstairs vs downstairs (28,000 BTUs Down, vs 32,000 BTUs Up - from the Bryant Reps Load Calc), and we spend more days trying to Cool the house than we do trying to Heat the house.

So my assumption would be to put the Two Stage HP with the Upstairs system, not the downstairs.

My logic may be faulty or not complete, and that's why I am asking what was behind your recommendation to put the two stage HP downstairs.

"Question, Why would you recommend putting the two stage HP downstairs vs upstairs?"

mark

I regret even mentioning this as I don't want to confuse the issue. It was not a recommendation. However, you seemed interested in the two stg HP condensers but I still believe that the good sgl stg models that have been discussed(XL15i and Preferred 15) are more than adequate. Most downstairs are living areas while upstairs are usually bedrooms/sleeping areas. It just seems to me that the two stg would be better pointed toward the living area than the sleeping area. maybe that's not logical but that's where I was coming from.

if your load calcs are correct with good design temps for your area/climate both cooling and heating, it looks like a 2 1/2 ton and a three ton HP system. what size do you currently have? you do need full BTUs on cooling for these rated sizes.

IMO

Tigerdunes,
Thanks for explaining your statement about Two stage HP's and your logic for suggesting it for downstairs. Our house is pretty much living area down, sleeping upstairs, with two major exception.

1 - We have a Bonus Room upstairs that I work out of and we spend a lot of time up there in the evenings walking on our tredmill or just watching TV/Movies. AND the bonus room sits over a 2 car garage and has two outside walls. So in addition to having the extra Sq Footage upstairs, it's a room that's difficult to Heat/Cool, and it's used most of the time.

2 - The 2nd exception is the fact that we have a 2 Story Living room in the middle of the house, that doesn't have any Heating/Cooling vents in it on the 2nd floor. So all the Heat from that room rises to the upstairs, and any cooling that happens upstairs sinks to the 1st floor.

Both items contribute to the higher cooling requirements upstairs vs downstairs.

As far as our current units we have 2 - 2.5 Ton Heat pumps, and they do struggle some to Cool the house in really Hot days, and to heat the house. The heating isn't that much of a problem since we have backup gas furnaces for both units but I'm sure the new HPs will do a better job of heating than the current units do, especially if I go with the Trane or Bryant systems that have the higher Heating BTUs.

I decided to go for the 3 Ton Heatpumps Because of the bstruggling with the cooling, and the numbers from the load calculations that looked like we definitely needed 3 Tons upstairs, and I thought the extra Heating BTUs in the 3 Ton unit would help the downstairs heating as well.

So that's the current info and why I was going with the 3 Ton Heatpumps. If I am not reading this correctly or should consider some other factors just let me know. I as always open to input from people who know more about this subject than I do. BUT I am trying to learn as I go along as well.

mark

by going up in size even by just a 1/2 ton, your ductwotk should be thoroughly inspected to see that it can handle the extra CFMs. 2 1/2 ton has 1000 CFMs, 3 ton 1200 CFMs rule of thumb. good properly sized ductwork both supply and return is usually ignored/overlooked.

as to the bonus room, these type rooms over a garage/carport can be very problematical. not always due to size of system but usually poor insulation and/or not enough CFMs to room. Since this room is used on a regular basis, ask dealer to make an evaluation and recommendation for improvement. Now is the time to speak up about any hot/cold spots in your home like this as well as your high ceiling open area family room.

IMO

tigerdunes,

We have looked at both of those items, ductwork and what to do about the bonus room.

The only changes they were recommending for the ductwork was to increase the size of the pipes on the 2 returns downstairs, and to add a 2nd return upstairs since we only have one. No one has really talked about whether they need to do anything with the heating/cooling vents other than the Bryant person suggesting that we should really add 2 upstairs vents to the 2nd floor of the Family Room. The other discussion was about adding/moving one of the vents in the Bonus Room to more of an outside wall. There are two vents in the Bonus room with one on the outside wall, but the 2nd one is by the Inside wall close to the door, where it really should be on the other Outside wall in the alcove in our Bonus Room. Unfortunately the roof line is really the ceiling of the bonus room in that area and it's very difficult, if not impossible to get into that space in the attic to actually move the vent. I believe that may be why they put it on the inside wall to start with, mainly because it was easy for them to do.

The other suggestion for helping the bonus room is to make sure I get the variable speed furnace or air handler. The thought is that by just cycling the air on a more frequent basis, that will help the temperature swings in the bonus room.

I would appreciate your thoughts on whether those items make sense or not. If they don't, as you say it's definitely something that I want to bring up and challenge now to see what else can be done.

mark

I see nothing wrong with adding returns but keep in mind this just increases air movement.

I believe you need additional supply to both bonus room and family room. Have you seen the Man J in writing? It shows the necessary CFMs required for each room both heating and cooling based on your comfort design temps. For the bonus room, assuming that you have good insulation qualities/good windows, then I suspect you require more supply. Either add more supply by another run or make existing supply run/s to this room larger. Same for the family room. Ask dealer about this.

IMO

Tigerdunes,

The Trane/Lennox reps last response to me was "Why don't I come out and do a true load calculation, at no cost to you! Then we will have specific numbers to work with.".

The other load calculation was done by the Bryant rep and he did not give a copy, I just got total numbers from him that I jotted down. I even asked for a copy and he said they don't leave them with customers, so I guess it is something that they usually charge for and he didn't want to give me info that I could use with other sales reps.

He did all the calculations by hand after getting the General House dimensions and then counting up Windows and not sure if he factored in # of Supplies or not.

Anyway, lets see what the Trane/Lennox Sales person comes up with after he stops by tomorrow.

I also plan to talk to him about moving the supply in the bonus room and adding supplies in the 2nd floor ceiling of the 2 story living room.

I'll post the results after I get them tomorrow. I think he still wants to push the Lennox XP19s and it's actually for less than what he is going to charge me for the Trane XL15Is, but we will see what happens after we get the numbers tomorrow.

I talked to the Owner of the Bryant Company today also because their Sales Man took another job, which was a complete surprise to him also so he is scrambling to handle everything. They are still in the running and he was really promoting the Bryant "Evolution Control System" which he stressed and made it a point that this was much better than the "HW VisionPro IAQ Stat" which was just a High End Thermistat. and using his words "We use them all the time but they are still just a Thermistat where the Bryant is a Control System"!.

So I'll be reading up on the information on Bryants Evolution Control System on their web page tonight.

Hello again Tigerdunes and Ryan,
I just received some ARI information from my Trane Rep and it's a little different from the information that Tigerdunes posted yesterday so I wanted to check something out.

Here is what Tigerdunes posted yesterday:

Here are several configurations on Trane's XL15i HP;
note the BTUs on heating

1382162 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE
4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F39A1 ................ 36000 13.00 15.00 34000 9.00 23600 1
1384031 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE
4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F40B1 ................ 37400 12.70 15.00 36200 9.00 23400 1

And here is the info I just received from my Trane Salesman.

4TWX5036A1 - 4TXCB036BC3 - UD060R9V3 . 34800 11.40 13.50 37000 8.30 24000
4TWX5036A1 - 4TWCB048BC3 - UH2B060A9V3 35200 11.60 13.75 36600 8.70 23800

I'm not sure which one is which but one is suppose to have their 80% VS Furnace while the other one should have the 95% VS Furnace. I also noticed that the Evaporator Coils are two different sizes. 3 Tons (036) on the first one, and 4 Tons (048) on the second one, or at least that what I think that means in the Coil Model number.

The SEER rating of the systems that my Salesman gave me are 1.25 to 1.5 lower than the numbers that you gave me and I noticed that those configs had a 4TEE3F39A1 or 4TEE3F40B1 listed with them.

What is the 4TEEFxxxxx component and is that just a Coil, just an Air Handler, or is it something else?
Just wondering what this is compared to what my Salesman sent me since probably contributes to the difference in numbers.

mark

the two Trane XL15i HP configurations were with matching var speed air handlers. Those configurations you listed are with VS furnaces,the XV80 mdl on top,the XV95 on bottom. You normally get your best performance/eff numbers from a var speed atr handler and it is very common to place a larger evap coil with a furnace to get your better eff on the outside condenser.

I suggest you get the numbers on the Bryant systems for comparison.

IMO

Thanks!
I've got soo many numbers flying around I don't know which way is UP anymore. : )

But it's all good and the more data/info I have, hopefully it will help me make a better decision.

I already have some Bryant numbers from what you and Ryan have posted and the Bryant Salesman is a little hard to get ahold of right now since they are trying to handle the workload of the salesman who I was working with who just quit and took another job. But I will contact them today to ask them to send me some numbers for what they are proposing.

And to help me keep track of all these numbers and compare each of the Vendors systems I have already created a Spreadsheet where I can put everything in an organized fashion so it's relatively easy to compare all of these variables across all three Vendors (Lennox, Trane and Bryant).

I'll post the Bryant numbers when I get them.

P.S. Is there a way to post a copy of a spreadsheet to this forum so you can see what I have collected so far, or do I have to continue doing a copy-n-paste of the information? Just wondering if there was an easy way to share the 123 spreadsheet that I had created. It's just data but for me it makes it easier to compare the 3 vendors.

Tigerdunes and Ryan, and anybody else with some experience.

The Salesman that I am working with for Trane/Lennox stopped by today to get some measurements to do a Load Calculation which I should have tomorrow, but while he was here we talked about a couple of things. One of the things he mentioned to me was that he was looking at ARI ratings to see which systems had the best numbers and he was surpised to see in the SEER 16 area that GOODMAN actually had some very good numbers. And he said the Price would be a lot better than any of the other systems I was looking at. He also mentioned that Goodman how has a 10 Year Parts Warranty on almost anything, and what he referred to an an "unheard of" Limited Lifetime Warranty on their Compressors.

He sent me the ARI Ratings after he left and here are the two systems that he sent me.

ARI#1277862-SSZ160361A - AEPF426016B+TXV 34600 13.00 16.00 34400 9.75 21000
ARI#1330376-SSZ160361A - CHPF4860D6C*+TXV+G*V950905D 34600 13.00 16.00 34400 9.5 21000

Do either of you have experience with Goodman and these SEER 16 heatpumps and have any views on this equipment, vs the Trane XL15, Lennox XP19, and Brant Preferred or Evolution 16?

I haven't seen the Price Quote on the Goodman systems, but the numbers look very good to me, I really like the warranty, and I'm always interested in saving money especially on a purchase this big. BUT, I want to make sure I get something that is reliable and will do the job as well. So your input would be greatly appreciated.

mark

I don't want to rehash the Goodman debate. You can get some info by Googling or use the search function on this HVAC forum as well as others.

I will say this.It has long been seen as a brand sold more on price than quality. Anecdotally there product seems to have made quality improvements. They sell their product to anyone as well as on the internet which I believe is a poor strategy that has sullied the brand. Some believe that it has been poor dealer installs that have contributed to this market perception more than the product itself.If a dealer is trying to make a sale strictly on price, more than likely Goodman is what is quoted. As stated, Goodman does not care who they sell to. They want sales and market share.

There are some that believe brand/mdl does not matter as much as the quality of the install.I do not subscribe to that line of thinking.

For me there are three parts to a successful installation.

1.good and properly sized HVAC
2.a good ductwork system properly designed,sized and insulated
3.quality installation by local dealer

As far as Goodman and sister company Amana, you can not ignore the upper end of their product line as well as the performance/eff numbers of configurations you cited(BTUs light in both cooling and heating).

For me, unless it is a strictly price/budget situation or an emergency breakdown, I remain uninterested. There is always the type of customer that wants a low price above anything else.

IMO

I suggest you look into Amana rather than Goodman. Price difference shouldn't be significant. The Amana also has a great warranty and comes in 2-stage cooling and heating in the 3-ton size (ASZ16). The Goodman is not a 2-stage unit in the 3-ton size.

Turns out the Price for the Goodman system wasn't that much lower than the Trane system. So I'm primarily looking at the Trane XL15I Heatpumps vs the Bryant Evolution or Preferred SEER 16 Heatpumps. Still waiting for information from the Bryant dealer on the Evolution and Preferred 16 HPs. The owner of the company told me that they bid the Evolution 16 and he wasn't even sure if the Preferred 16 was still available.

I also got a copy of the Load Calc from the Salesman that is bidding the Trane/Lennox/Goodman equipment. Lots of numbers that I don't know that I understand but he told me based on the Load Calc he would recommend that I go with a 3 Ton Heatpump upstairs, but for downstairs he recommends a 2.5 Ton HP if it's single stage, and a 3.0 Ton HP if it's a dual stage.

How does that recommendation sound to you guys? And if there are any specific numbers from the Load calc you are interested in let me know what they are and where I would find them and I will post the information.

What was the total heat loss and heat gain? At what temperatures do you plan on setting your thermostats? The units are rated at 80* indoor drybulb (temperature).

Ryan,
I don't see anything on the 3 Page printout (for each story) that specifically mentions "Heat Loss" or "Heat Gain".

The first page of the Downstairs Calculation has these numbers - Heating 45,754, and Cooling 19,706.
The first page of the Upstairs Calculation has these numbers - Heating 43,700, and Cooling 21,563.

Then on the 2nd page there are some additional numbers for Cooling. The heating numbers under the "Heating Summary" section are the same as what's on the first page.
But in the right hand column are some cooling numbers and there is a section labeled "Latent Cooling Equipment Load Sizing".

The Total numbers for the Downstairs is - Equip Total Load = 23,966 btuh, and Req Total capacity at 0.70 SHR = 2.4 Ton.
The Total numbers for the Upstairs are - Equip Total Load = 25,419 btuh, and Req Total capacity at 0.70 SHR = 2.6 Ton.

As far as normal temperatures. We have an older "Slider" termostat right now so it's hard to tell the exact temperature but we try to keep it set around 74-76 in the summer, and around 70-72 in the Winter.

If I picked the wrong numbers to relay to you, I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by "Loss and Gain" numbers. The bottom of the 2nd and 3rd pages does say "Printout certified by ACCA to meet all requirements of Manual J 7th Ed", and the prinout looks like it's produced by some Software package named or from "Wrightsoft Right Suite Residential 5.9 56 RSR40388"

Just noticed something else. Each page has a slightly different heading.
Page 1 - Building Analysis
Page 2 - Project Summary
Page 3 - Short Form

If you need some other numbers let me know more about where they might be or how they might be labeled.

Still looking to see if anybody has any input on the Load Calc numbers that I posted. Thanks!

It is good to see that a load calculation was done first and foremost. Looks like they are being thorough. Of course that's only speculation from here, though. It looks like the heat load came out to requiring less capacity, but with the latent load (humidity) taken into consideration, you ended up requiring more capacity ("total equipment load"). You can confirm that this is the case, but that's what I would assume the "total equipment load" is in comparison to the downstairs and upstairs calculations. I read over your numbers previously but never got back to give my reply. Hopefully some more people here familiar with Manual J/S sizing can give you their speculation.

mark

I find those load cals both heating and cooling suspect. too high for heating, too low on cooling. They should be reviewed thoroughly in writing and hopefully independently verified. What were the design temps both inside and outside used for cooling and heating? I would want at least 94 degrees outside for cooling and 15-20 degrees for heating. I think 74 degree inside with RH I hope Ryan sees my post as I would ask him if Trane dealer has quoted best evap coil matchup.

IMO

Having seen calcs from all over, I would venture to say his numbers are close.

90,000 heating BTU's net = 25 BTU's a sq ft
45,000 cooling BTU's = 12-15 BTU's per sq ft

It does get to high 90's in summmer and the teens in the winter on occasion, right?

The Design Temps were Outdoor, 15 for Heating, and 98 for Cooling, and YES it does get in the High 90's in the summary VERY OFTEN, and it does get into the teens in the Winter, occassionally.

As far as relative humidity I did not see any settings for that for an Outside Temp, but for the Inside Temps it was Heating 70 degrees with 30% RH, and Cooling was 75 degrees with 50% RH.

Posting this again to see if anybody has any feedback on this recommendation by the contractor.

Lots of numbers that I don't know that I understand but he told me based on the Load Calc he would recommend that I go with a 3 Ton Heatpump upstairs, but for downstairs he recommends a 2.5 Ton HP if it's single stage, and a 3.0 Ton HP if it's a dual stage.

How does that recommendation sound to you guys?

mark

just to be clear, what are the load calcs for cooling each floor?

TD

Ask how the dealer arrived at these values:

"The Total numbers for the Downstairs is - Equip Total Load = 23,966 btuh, and Req Total capacity at 0.70 SHR = 2.4 Ton.

The Total numbers for the Upstairs are - Equip Total Load = 25,419 btuh, and Req Total capacity at 0.70 SHR = 2.6 Ton"

Ryan,
There are additional numbers on that page that show how those numbers were arrived at, but it's more detail than I want to try to repeat here. But I think I'm at a point where I have to make a decision quickly and I have another basic question.

I won't get into the details of why I feel I need to make a decision quickly but here is my question.

I have lots of numbers (SEER, EER, Cooling BTU's, Heating BTU's HSPF) that I can use to compare systems from different vendors (Lennox, Trane, Bryant, & Goodman) and I think I understand what most of them mean, but here is my question.

What is the difference, if any in a higher SEER Rating, if the EER and HSPF ratings are about the same? I am comparing the Lennox SEER 19 Heatpump to the Trane, Bryant and Goodman SEER15/16 units and the only rating on the Lennox Heatpumps that is higher than the competitors if the SEER Rating.

So what's the difference between
1 - A Lennox XP19 Heatpump with a SEER rating of 17.6, with an EER of 11.6,
2 - A Trane XL15I Heatpump with a SEER Rating of 13.5 and an EER of 11.4?
On the surface the EER Ratings are basically the same, but the SEER rating of the Lennox Heatpump is 4 points higher.
Will that really result in a more cost effecient and lower cost of operation for the Lennox Heatpump?

I will be having some serious discussions with the contract first thing Monday morning, if he is available and the discussion will most likely lead to a decision on which units to buy and install, so any thoughts and feedback on this question would be most appreciated. THanks!

P.S. At this point I have more or less ruled out Bryant because I really like the response I am getting from this one contractor and they don't handle Bryant. But they have also given me a bid for the Goodman SEER 16 Heatpumps and Furnaces. I am still considering them because they actually have the highest SEER, EER, HSPF ratings for SEER 16 equipment (SEER=16, EER=13, HSPF=9.5 & 9.8) and they have pretty good Heating and Cooling BTU's as well. So the question also relates to Goodman.
What's the difference between
- the Trane XL15 with SEER/EER/HSPF of 13.5/11.4/8.3, and
- the Goodman SZ16 with SEER/EER/HSPF of 16.0/13.0/9.8?
The Goodman's ratings are higher by 2.5/1.6/1.5?

FYI, The Bids for the Lennox and Goodman already include Parts and Labor for 10 years, and the Trane covers parts for 10 years and I'm going to ask for a quote on what Labor for 10 years would cost as well. That way they will be as close to apples-to-apples from a what's included standpoint. Then the key differences are the Lennox being SEER 19 and two stage, vs the Trane/Goodman being 1 stage Heatpumps. And the fact that I am comparing Lennox, Trane and Goodman. But a lot of people seem to say all the equipment made by the major vendors are pretty much the same, it has a lot more to do with who Installs the system and how good of a job they do.

Anyway, any feedback on this difference in SEER/EER ratings and what they might mean from a dollars standpoint would be appreciated. I will also consider any advice on which systems that YOU would choose, even though you don't have all the details. As far as price, right now the Trane bid is the highest (even without 10 years of labor), the Goodman is about $300 less (and includes 10 years parts and labor), and the Lennox bid is about $1,000 cheaper because of some rebates that they have right now.

"What is the difference, if any in a higher SEER Rating, if the EER and HSPF ratings are about the same?"

--- SEER applies to the unit's efficiency at realistic outdoor operating temperatures--more mild weather compared to EER. The EER refers to operating efficiency at high outdoor temperatures (~ 95 degrees outdoor DB). The higher the SEER/EER, the more efficient the system. These are nominal values, of course, and the true efficiency of your system depends on many factors: maintenance, ductwork, refrigerant charge, etc. So the Lennox is the more efficient system nominally, but you have to consider the cost difference and ROI. Same applies to the Goodman/Trane comparison. The Goodman setup is much more efficient. If presented those two options, though, I would choose the XL15i since I feel Trane makes a better product compared to Goodman. Some will disagree. Goodman may be better now, but their reputation from the past is not erased. Before I consider Goodman up with the other major brands, they need to prove themselves. Right now most Goodmans I see are hacked in at apartment complexes/etc. I'm not a big fan of 2-stage, but if it's cheaper than the Trane, I would say "why not." Lennox and Trane are very close to me as far as reliability goes.

Thanks for the response Ryan, but I want to make sure I understand your statements on basically which system you would pick.

If it was between Trane and Goodman, you would go with Trane, mainly because of Goodman's history and your experience with their equipment (see them hacked in at apartment complexes/etc).

And even though you don't care for 2-stage units, since the Lennox is cheaper than the Trane, and since the reliability is very close, "why not" go with the Lennox?

Just checking as I am also going through this same decision making and I end up picking a different Vendor depending on which specific numbers or data that I am looking at.

Thanks again!

You got it. It would be between the Trane or the Lennox for me, but since the Lennox is a high-end system with 2-stage cooling it would make sense to go this route. I don't think 2-stage systems are bad, but I do think similar results can be accomplished without them and I like to keep things simple--to not go into technical details. Can you refresh my memory with what other components would go with the Trane or Lennox systems? Coil, thermostat, and furnace, if you all 3.

In all fairness, I feel it important to mention that I have seen people with Goodman units who have been happy and had good luck with them. On the flip side, I've seen people who have had nothing but problems with them. Is it all installation related? Maybe, but I think some issues have to do with the quality of the product. As of recently, Goodman's products seem to be more in-line with what other manufacturers are putting out, but time will tell. I still think Goodman could improve on their quality, as could other manufaturers, and I still see Trane/Lennox/Rheem/Carrier/etc. as superior. That's my opinion that I offer to you to use in your decision. A Goodman may serve you well, especially with a 10-year parts and labor warranty, so I don't want to turn you away from this option if this is the way you want to go for whatever reason. Most of the time Goodman is sold based off price, not quality. Hence the hacked apartment complexes/etc.

Here are the configurations that I am looking at for Lennox, Trane and Goodman.

Lennox XP19 Heatpump
Upstairs-XP19-036-230* CBX32MV-048-230*............... .........36000 12.70 18.60 32200 9.30 19500
Downstairs-XP19-036-230* CH33-44/48B*+TDR+TXV+G61VMPV-36B-070* 34800 11.80 17.55 31800 8.45 19600

Trane XL15I Heatpump
Upstairs- 4TWX5036A1 4TEE3F39A1 ................ 36000 13.00 15.00 34000 9.00 23600 1
Downstairs-4TWX5036A1 - 4TWCB048BC3 - UH2B060A9V3 35200 11.60 13.75 36600 8.70 23800

Goodman
Upstairs-ARI#1277862-SSZ160361A - AEPF426016B+TXV ............... 34600 13.00 16.00 34400 9.75 21000
Downstairs-ARI#1330376-SSZ160361A - CHPF4860D6C* +TXV+G*V950905D 34600 13.00 16.00 34400 9.5 21000

From everything I have read here the biggest concern with the Lennox heatpumps is the low Heating numbers at both 47 and 17 degrees. But since we have 2 x 2.5 Ton Heatpumps right now that are 12+ years old, and we are going to 3.0 Ton Heatpumps that are brand new I'm assuming we will get more heat and a warmer heat that what we get today. And the main two items causing me to lean towards the Lennox systems is the fact that they are SEER 19 Units (the highest SEER rating of all the systems) which should save me even more on operating costs, and they are the lowest cost of the 3 systems as well.

So any additional thoughts would be most appreciated from Ryan, Tigerdunes or anybody else that has experience with these systems. Thanks!

mark

The Goodmans look very compelling;however, I could not do it.

Don't be blinded by SEER as EER is just as important and you get more heating BTUs with the Trane which means it will operate at lower temperatures before heat strips kick in or gas furnace backup engages. Again, not a fan of Lennox Pumps-I'll say that up front. Trane would be my choice as long as HW VP IAQ is the selected stat and price was competitive.

IMO

Thanks for the input Tigerdunes. All 3 systems will have the HW VP IAQ installed with all three systems, upstairs and down.

Right now the Trane is about $400 more than Goodman, and $900 more than Lennox, and that's without 10 years Labor on the Trane, but that is included in the price of Goodman and Lennox systems. So we are probably talking another $250 per system to add that to the Trane bid. So the Trane will end up being $900 more than Goodman, and $1,400 more than Lennox. That ends up being less than 10% of the total bid.

Still collecting input and would like to hear other peoples opinions, input as well. Thanks!

Ryan,
Any additional thoughts/input after I posted the configs and numbers above? All 3 systems will use the HW VP IAQ so that is another constant amongst the items.

Let me know what you think after looking at the numbers.
Thanks!

mark

my final thought.

while Lennox is not my favorite especially pumps, I would not be willing to pay more for a sgl stg Trane hybrid system. if you really want the Trane, then tell the dealer what you are willing to pay. all he can say is yes or no. there is absolutely no reason he should be higher than the two stg XP19 Lennox pump. If you are satisfied with Lennox and comfortable with the dealer, then go ahead and pull the trigger.

IMO
Good Luck!

From what you've listed, I would choose the Lennox. I'm not extremely concerned with the slightly lower heating output because A. the high-efficiency gas furnace backup on the downstairs (and downstairs really isn't that low to begin with) and B. the fact that not much heat should be needed on a top floor and if it is for some reason, you should have heat strips. Trane or Lennox, both setups are good. I would not consider the Goodman setup. Not in the league of the Trane and Lennox to me, but some will disagree. The XP19's would be my pick. Quiet too. I'm a Lennox and Trane fan.

Thanks for all of the Information and the followup input on which system you would "recommend" that I should go with. I know that the decision is really mine but for me it's helpful to have some experienced input on something that can be complicated and difficult to understand.

After reviewing everything I have decided to go with the Lennox XP19 Heatpumps and I have just contacted the Contractor to say "I've made a decision, lets put the final deal/documentation together.".

I will probably be holding off the installation of the new system until the middle of October because my wifes mother is visiting with us for the next month so I'd just as soon do this after she has returned home.

I'll post another update once we get the system installed so I can report on how the install went, how the new system seems to be performing and what my first Electric Bill looks like with this new more effecient system. I realize that the electric bill will drop from the previous month just due to getting into Fall, but our bill also includes the last 12 months worth of charges so I can do a comparison of the current month last year, to what it is this year to see what the difference is going to be.

Thanks again for helping me get "Fairly Well Educated in less than a month". All of the contractors that I have worked with have commented about how "knowledgeable" I appear to be on this subject, and a lot of that comes from the input I have gathered from the folks on this site.

mark

congratulations and good luck!

keep us posted.

TD

Just received a written proposal from the Contractor and have a question about the Thermostat.

He has it listed as the "ComfortSense 7000" stat.
What are your thoughts on that Stat vs the HW VisionPro IAQ and does the one they are proposing have Humidity Control and the other features of the HW VisionPro?

I plan on asking the contract about this but wanted to get other opinions/input. Thanks!

mark

if the Lennox stat does not have the "dehumidify on demand" feature, then stick to your guns for the HW VP IAQ.
Perhaps Ryan knows. I looked at the consumer brochure and don't believe it does.

IMO

I believe the ComfortSense keeps the blower on a slow speed and bumps the staging up to 2nd stage for max dehumidification.

I'm still waiting for a response from the Contractor, who has been sick the last few days, and I am still pushing for the HW Vision Pro IAQ Stat to be installed.

Another question. I am thinking about going with the Air Handler with Heat Strips as the backup system to the Heatpump, instead of having the Gas Furnace. The main reasons for going with the Air Handler and Heat Strips is because the Effeciency ratings are actually higher for the Heatpumps with this configuration, and according to the Contractor the Air Handler and Heat Strips are less complex and should have fewer problems.

My question is two fold.
1 - Do you agree with that statement and do you think going with the Air Handler and Heat Strips over the Gas Furnace is a good idea?
2 - Any feedback on what we can expect for the Heat that the Heat Strips put out, vs what we would have with the Gas Furnace? My wife is not thrilled with the so called "Heat" from our existing Heatpump, but that should be better with these new Heatpumps. But she Loves the Warmth of the Gas Furnace when that kicks in, and she wants to make sure that we aren't giving that up by going with Heat Strips vs the Gas Furnace.

So any additional advice and input would be greatly appreciated since we have no experience with Air Handlers and Heat Strips as a backup heat source.
Thanks!

It could take time to get accustomed to the heat pump's lower output temperature, but overall they can heat a home effectively and efficiently when sized right. The heat strips, with the heat pump, put out rather hot air for heat pumps.

Ryan,
We already have Heatpumps upstairs and downstairs and have had them for 12 years, so it's not getting used to the Heatpump that I am concerned about. It's the difference (if any) between having a Gas Furnace and having Heat Strips as a Backup Heat System.

mark

you will notice a big improvement in the supply temp heat temperature over old type heat pumps. if charged correctly,you should expect in the low to mid 90s with an outside temp in the 40s minimum. of course this supply temp will decrease as outside temps decrease. many homeowners are unaware that the supply temp from the high eff condensing furnaces is lower than the traditional non condensing furnace mdls but it is higher than today's high eff HPs. on my dual fuel(Trane XV90), my family really can not tell whether the HP is running or the high eff furnace.

I would stick with your plan of dual fuel downstairs and HP with var spd air handler and backup heat strips for upstairs.

and stay your ground on insisting for the HW VP IAQ stat.

IMO

Thanks for the response Tigerdunes,
Question - What is your rationale for recommending staying with Dual Fuel Downstairs (HP & Gas Furnace) vs using the HP with var speed air handler with HeatStrips?

From the efficiency numbers I have seen, I just thought it made sense to go with the higher efficiency configuration both Upstairs and downstairs.

mark

here is my rationale.

1.while I believe the difference between electric rates and nat gas rates will only widen, that's no guarantee. Dual fuel allows you to hedge your bet between the two fuels for heating purposes.

2.heat whether from HP or nat gas furnace rises and that should help minimize/reduce upstairs system from using backup heat strips.

3.with dual fuel, this allows you to switch back and forth between the fuels, especially if your wife objects to HP heating. If HP for some reason has a breakdown(and yes it does happen), you always have the gas furnace backup, so you know you will not freeze to death whether an upstairs or downstairs breakdown.

4.my area has ice storms and at times, power is lost. with dual fuel, you could consider a nat gas backup generator that could power the gas furnace since it pulls so little power. and if you want to save a few dollars, you could consider the 80% Lennox two stg var speed furnace model. for your area/climate unless there is a deep freeze, you will rarely use the gas furnace but it's there when needed.

sorry for the ramble.

IMO