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New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Posted by highlt (My Page) on
Fri, Aug 1, 14 at 21:55

Hi Guys-

I live in Ohio and I'm looking to replace my trusty 18 year old Trane 80% furnace and XE-1000 central air unit with a dual fuel system. I have a two story 2200 square foot home with a basement. I have had 5 contractors out with quotes for Trane and Carrier. I've narrowed my choices down to these two quotes and both companies are reputable. I really like the Carrier control and have requested the Carrier dealer provide 5 years labor for same price and waiting to hear back. However my old Trane has performed fine and the price difference is nearly $1500. Can anyone convince me it's worth paying this difference for Carrier and this control? If installed properly, I assume both systems will run fine for years. I do have a humidity issue and want to ensure the new system solves this. Feedback appreciated.

Trane System
XV95 Furnace - TUH2B080A9V4VA
XR15 Heat pump - 4TWR5036G1000A
Coil - 4TXCB036BC3HCA
AprilAire 600m Humidifier
Control - XL-824
Price - 8400-600(Elect. rebate) - 168(cash) = $7632
Add 150 for XL-950 stat
5 year labor warranty
10 year parts warranty

Carrier System
Infinity Furnace - 59TN6A080
Performance Heat Pump - 25HCC536
Coil - CNPVP4217
Carrier Large by-pass HUMCCLPB2417
Infinity Control - SYSTXCCITC01
Price - 9924-600(Elect. rebate) - 198(cash) = .$9126
1 year labor warranty
10 year parts warranty


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I have one other question if anyone can help. I've been looking at the AHRI ratings and I'm trying to understand the difference between the quoted Trane Furnace TUH2B080A9V4VA and TUH2B080A9V3VA. It doesn't appear the Seer meets for my electric rebate using the 4VA but the 3VA has more configurations and some fit. What's the difference between these furnaces?


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

One furnace has a 3 ton rated blower and one has a 4 ton rated blower. Either will work with 3 ton XR15. You and your dealer want to pay close attention to the best rated evap coil with XV95 furnace that suits your application.

IMO


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I don’t understand your Carrier proposal. First of all they’re proposing an Infinity gas furnace & thermostat, and then proposing a HP that is NOT a ‘communicating’ HP (Performance series) that would defeat the purpose of having the Infinity controller. The big advantage and benefit of the Infinity system is that all the Infinity components ‘communicate’ with each other for diagnostic purposes and increased efficiency. I would recommend an Infinity 25HNB536A HP at a minimum.

Secondly, you would be better served by the Infinity 59MN7A080 series that is fully modulating (between minimum output and maximum output) rather than the 59TN6A080 series that is a simple 2-stage burner.

I would encourage buying the 10-year labor warranty and WiFi version of the T-stat as well.

IMPO

SR


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

What are your gas and electric rates? What are your typical winter low temperatures? In most parts of the country a 95% efficient furnace will cost less to operate than a heat pump.

A better option would be to go with an AC condenser and put the saved money towards a modulating furnace.


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Thanks for all the feedback. fsq4cw, I was told the Performance heat pump will work with the Infinity controller but I would not have low ambient temperature control. Is this in-correct? They indicated the efficiency for the 15 Seer Infinity is neglible in providing more efficiency and the additional cost is $1200. Doesn't make sense to go that route unless I'm missing something?

Tigerdunes, I ran the equipment above thru AHRI and it appears the XR15/XV95 models with the 4 ton unit is not a valid combo and will not qualify for the elect. rebate. However, if I run it with the 3 ton I come up with AHRI reference number 4657243 with following ratings:
Cooling Capacity (BTU) - 36400
EER - 12.00
SEER - 14.5
Heating capacity (btu)@47F: 33400
Regiong IV HSPF Rating(Heating): 9.00
Heating Capacity(btu) @17: 21200

I do have a humidity issue and my up stairs suffers from air flow and poor duct work. What is the advantage of the 4 ton over the 3 ton. I assume more air flow which is what I need?


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

fsq4cw, also I'm a bit nervous about modulating furnace because of my up-stairs duct work issue and just being bleeding edge technology. Are the modulating furnaces reliable? Are the repairs more costly? Since I suffer from poor duct work and low air flow upstairs, will modulating hurt or help this. This is why I'm going single stage for heat pump to ensure I force all the air I can up stairs.


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I don’t doubt that the Performance 25HCC536 HP will ‘work’ with the Infinity T-stat but is it ‘Communicating’? If not then it’s a poorer choice than an Infinity series HP. ‘Communicating & Diagnostics’ are greater issues than is low ambient temperature in my opinion. I’m not in your market but the $1200 price differential seems like a lot to me.

Regarding modulating over 2-speed burner, I would prefer the modulating method with regards to energy efficiency and in particular with a less than optimal duct system that is already presenting challenges.

The 10-year labor warranty would preclude any worries regardless of the technology chosen. I would venture to say it would be a wise choice.

SR


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Mike, my electric rate is 0.13 kwh and I just pre-bought 1000 gallons of Propane at 1.55. How do you do the math to compare the energy efficiency?


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I need to add I will get a .02 KWH credit for 9 months out of year for heat pump. So during the non-summer months the heat pump rate will be .11.


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

To be used as a guide only.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat

Electric baseboard: $2.90
Heat pump: $1.17
Propane: $1.78

Did not realize you are on propane backup. You will see some nice savings with HP. I would want the HP to have at least 9 HSPF. Discuss coil selection with dealer. I don't believe he has offered the best model.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 12:26


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I didn't realize you were using propane either, that is why I was questioning the dual fuel system. I verified Tigerdune's numbers and they are correct.

Your low electric rate makes the decision easy. The Trane heat pump has on demand defrost. This is would be a good feature to have in your climate.


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Thanks guys...I feel the Trane heat pump is better than the Carrier but really like the control on the Carrier. Do you think the Carrier control will provide any additional savings or comfort versus the Trane with a non-communicating stat?


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Carrier has the best total integrated HVAC system on the residential marketplace. That includes Infinity HVAC, Infinity zoning controls and of course the ubiquitous Infinity controller.

But there is nothing wrong with Trane and their HPs are still ahead of Carrier especially with electronic demand defrost. The XV95 furnace is just as good as Carrier's 2 stage Infinity furnace.

I already made my recommendation on the HW thermostat for the system you are looking at in your 2nd thread.

IMO


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I guess the question is the Carrier worth $1500 more than the trane? That's the question I have to answer.


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Not in my opinion as long as Trane dealer includes the thermostat I recommended, new lineset, new filter cabinet, and best rated and highest efficiency Trane evap coil.

IMO


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Tigerdunes in regards to best coil. When I review AHRI I only see two configurations available for the 4 ton furnace and XR15 heat pump and specs are both 11.5 EER, 14 SEER and 9 HSPF and not the coil my dealer provided. My dealer's combination is not on the site for 4 ton system. The 3 ton furnace has more options and I posted earlier specs. My questions are:

1. Should all valid configurations be on AHRI?
2. Should I be concerned my dealers configuration does not show up on AHRI?
3. What factors determine if I require a 3 ton or 4 ton system?


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Disregard question 2. It does show up it just doesn't meet my elect requirement for SEER.


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

What is your qualification for rebate?...


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

In order to qualify, the heat pump must be a minimum SEER of 14.5 and a minimum HSPF of 8.2. All details are in link below.

http://butlerrural.coop/sites/butlerrural.coopwebbuilder.com/files/air_source__dual_fuel_packet.pdf


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I'll check this afternoon when I have more time.

How much is rebate?

If cost effective, you might need to upgrade to XR16.

IMO


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I have nor reviewed your link.

Here are 3 configurations that I would recommend assuming they meet the qualifying standard for the rebate. Of course you will need to discuss with your dealer.

4656839 Active Systems TRANE XR15 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR5036G1 4TXCB048BC3 1125 *UH2B080A9V3 36200 12.00 14.25 33600 9.00 21200 1 HRCU-A-CB 315 772

4656898 Active Systems TRANE XR15 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR5036G1 4TXCC005CC3 1060 *UH2B080A9V3 36200 12.00 14.50 33600 9.00 21000 1 HRCU-A-CB 310 772
4656933 Active Systems TRANE XR15 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR5036G1 4TXCC007CC3 1125 *UH2B080A9V3 36400 12.00 14.50 34000 9.00 21200 1 HRCU-A-CB 311 772

IMO


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Thanks and rebate is $600 and 0.02 per kw 9 months out of year for heat pump electric used.


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I had come up with 4657243 playing with the site. How do you think this compares?


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Also, my dealer indicated if we go to the 3 ton furnace he will need to transition the 21 inch coil to the 17.5 inch furnace. Is this normal? His origininal recommendation was 5983172. It's a a half SEER less but at the end of the day this is costing $9 more a year for cooling based on example on AHRI. I'm more concerned the transition will provide efficiency versus the coild fitting exactly. Your thoughts.


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Your configuration or the 3 I listed should be fine.

I personally do not like the idea of a transition mainly because it looks so bad. It is done though. Trane coils properly sized are made to fit correctly to the furnace. Same is true of Trane's Perfect Fit Media Filter Cabinet which I recommend and personally have on my XV90 at home. You would need to weigh the transition and operating cost against the load calc. The first stage of the 3 ton furnace would step on the heat pump's output.

IMO


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Tiger, I think going with the 4 ton to eliminate the transition is the best approach. I assume my contractor was looking out for me in this area. So AHRI 5983172 will be the system if I go down this path which is 14 SEER, 9 HSPEF, 11.5 EER. Do you think this is the best decision? Also, what do you mean by the first stage of the 3 ton furnace would step on the heat pump's output?


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

going back, I think I misunderstood your concern about the transition.

You are speaking of the 3 ton rated 80 K XV95 versus the 4 ton rated 80 K XV95. Correct?

Dimensionally they are the same so a transition may be necessary to accept the coil you require for the rebate.

TUH2B080A9V3VB 40 17.5 28 49,500/76,000 95 Yes
TUH2B080A9V4VB 40 17.5 28 49,500/76,000 95 Yes

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 11:19


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Yes, I'm speaking of 3 versus 4 ton rated XV95. Originally my dealer stated which is AHRI reference 5983172:

TUH2B080A9V4VA XV95 Furnace

4TWR5036G1000A XR15 Heat Pump

4TXCB036BC3HCA Coil

Does this require a transition as well?


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

Ask your dealer about this including the various configurations we listed. Let's let him earn your job.

IMO


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RE: New Dual fuel System - Trane versus Carrier

I am asking but I'm trying to confirm his findings. I appreciate and thank you for your help Tiger...


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