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New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Posted by highlt (My Page) on
Sun, Aug 10, 14 at 21:24

I'm looking at replacing my old Trane TUD100C948B1 Trane furnace with a Bryant Evolution 986TB60080V21. When I look at the specs on the old Trane it states 9.8 amps. The new energy efficient Bryant has the following in the manual:

Max input amps: 13.6
Unit ampacity: 17.9
Min Wire size:12
Max Fuse: 20 amp

Based on these numbers it appears I will have to replace my current 14-2 15 amp breaker with a 20 amp breaker and 12-2 wire. Isn't this system going to cost more to run for electricity? Understand gas cost will decrease but I'm focused on the electric side and what my true savings will really be?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Something missing here.

The Trane furnace model you listed appears to be the XR80 model, 100 K size. It has a conventional PSC blower motor.

The Bryant 986T Evolution furnace s 2 stage with a var speed blower.

I don't have the specs available but the var speed blower motor will use a fraction of the electricity compared to the conventional blower motor.

IMO


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Then why does the Bryant require a 12 wire/20 amp circuit?


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Specs for Bryant are in document below:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A//dms.hvacpartners.com/docs/1009/public/0f/pds986tb-02.pdf&ei=EK7oU5WID835yQSmlYKICA&usg=AFQjCNHagUcEu3A7F6u0TP9RGWZGIvuT9g&bvm=bv.72676100,d.aWw


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Why not get the specs for the Trane, not what you have.

Just a thought.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Here is the product data sheet for the Bryant 986TB furnace. The model you quoted has a 1HP motor which would explain the large currents.

The motor is efficient, but it will spin as fast as it needs to in order to achieve the proper air flow. If the air flow is restricted it will use more power.

Do you need the the 5 ton blower? The 986TB42080 model has a 1/2 HP motor which would work with a 15 amp circuit. It can be used with a 3.5-4 ton AC depending on air flow.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bryant 986TB furnace


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

good info, Mike especially on the larger blower motor for the Bryant furnace...

TD


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

I do not know if I require the 5 ton blower but I can say the current blower on the Trane model is fine but I don't know how big the blower is. I have had 5 HVAC bids and they all tell me something different. My a/c will be a 3 ton. One dealer stated using the 1/2 hp blower for the Bryant and another stated to use the 1 hp blower for the motore and another stated to use 100btu with 1hp for blower. I've been looking at getting a system for 3 weeks and I'm at wits end with the HVAC dealers all providing different recommendations.

My feeling is 80 btu at 97% is fine and 3 ton a/c is fine. My confusion is on the blower size. Trying to get help in this area.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

If only going 3 ton, then mike has solved your dilemma/concern.

98(6*B,7*A)42080V17***

Above furnace can take up to a 3 1/2 ton condenser. You certainly don't need the furnace with 5 ton rated blower if only using a 3 ton outside condenser.

IMO


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Thanks Tiger...Curiosity question. Does the Bryant Evolution allow you to control the CFM setting for the heating and cooling or does the computer algorithm do it all based on the furnace and heat pump size? Implying you have no control over it like when setting dip switches on a Trane.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

When I look at the Bryant specs for the V17, it appears the cfm for the low stage is 1060 and high stage is 1500 which is more than the V21 rated at 1345 on high stage. I'm asking the question above because it doesn't appear you can control this via dip switches or the control?


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

When I look at the Bryant specs for the V17, it appears the cfm for the low stage is 1060 and high stage is 1500 which is more than the V21 rated at 1345 on high stage. I'm asking the question above because it doesn't appear you can control this via dip switches or the control?


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Not sure what you are looking at..

Are you speaking of heating or cooling? I assume cooling CFMs. You are speaking about a range or literally high and low stage.

Post back.

IMO


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

I'm speaking of heating cfms for low and high stage. The heat pump is single stage.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Appears the V17 will not qualify for electric rebate but V21 will. The V17 knocks the heat pump down to 14 seer. The V21 also will not require a transition to the existing duct work.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

The above could very well be true. What are the qualifying standards?

IMO


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Mininum 14.5 Seer and 8.2 HSPF.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

And you are looking at a 3 ton?

How much is rebate?

You are on nat gas or propane?

TD

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Mon, Aug 11, 14 at 13:52


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

My heat pump is 3 ton but I'm confused if I need more tons for heat during winter.

Rebate is $600 and 0.02 kw discount for heat pump usage.

I'm on propane.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

I guess my ultimate question is there any harm having the V21 with the 3 ton heat pump? I'm not clear if the Evolution provides adjusting the cfm if required or if a computer algorithm does it and there is no control.

It's interesting because my Trane quote I have the opposite problem for the furnace. It requires the 3 ton version of the furnace to meet the specs and the 4 ton doesn't work.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

If you got the V21 furnace you would be paying more for the furnace and you would have to run a new 20 amp service line from the circuit breaker box. You will have to determine how those costs compare with your $600 rebate.

There is nothing wrong with a 17 inch to 21 inch duct transition provided it is done correctly.

Heat pumps need to be sized for the cooling load. You will switch over to the propane furnace when the heat pump cannot generate enough heat when the outside temperature is too low.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Is there an EER component to the qualifying standard?

I see numerous matching systems with the smaller furnace paired with 3 ton HP condensers and the smaller coil that would eliminate need for transition.

IMO


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

No EER requirement. Is there any issue with having a transition for the coil meeting the existing duct work? If I use the 17 inch for the Bryant or Trane it will require a transition to the 21 inch duct work.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Not as long as the transition is sized and fitted professionally. In other words, not a hack job.

IMO


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

So my choices are the Bryant 4/5 ton blower or Trane 3 ton blower to qualify for rebate. Currently I have a 4 ton blower with my existing Trane system. I assume the unit is using the 4 ton for heat only when burning propane. My preference is to keep the larger blower to have flexiblity for adjusting cfm higher if required. This means I have to use the Bryant. However, I do like the demand defrost for Trane and efficiencies are better for the heat pump but I can only get the 3 ton blower. What is your suggestion?


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

If Bryant, I see no compelling reason to go to the furnace with the larger blower. It is my understanding that the Evolution control selects the CFMs with the matching HP condenser. Of course it can be adjusted in the installer's operating manual.

I do like Trane HPs mainly because of demand defrost feature which Carrier and Bryant do not offer. Their XV95 furnace 80 K model comes both with 3 ton and 4 ton rated blower.

And you should be aware that with the Bryant furnace, there is always the Extreme HP model, same as Carrier's Greenspeed. The benefit is maintaining BTUs down to lower temp plus the high HSPF eff rating.

IMO


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Tiger, you state "It is my understanding that the Evolution control selects the CFMs with the matching HP condenser." My concern is if I'm running backup heat(propane) will I need the higher cfm's for heat? Since I have a 4 ton blower today. Thanks again for your help.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

You are over thinking....let the technology work for you....don't fight it...the only question I have is what functionality do you lose if you elect a Preferred series HP condenser over an Evolution model. Are you leaning one way?

TD


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

To my knowledge the preferred series will be a little louder but not as loud as the Trane and it's not truly communicating. The Bryant furnace is starting to make me nervous because of the electricity specs. I posted above for the V21. The Trane doesn't have the high electric specs and will work on the 15 amp breaker. I was primarily going for the Bryant because of the evolution control and the noise. The HP sits right next to my back porch and there is no where to move it. The Trane is 5 years labor and the Bryant is 10 years labor. However the Bryant is $1300 more with the 10 year warranty or $500 or more with a 1 year labor warranty. Yes, I always overthink everything! The blower is my confusion. If I knew the right size then it will dictate which one I should purchase. 3 ton is Trane and 4 ton is Bryant.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Tigerdunes, I'm ready to stop over thinking this and am 99% sure Trane is the best path. I plan to go with the following.

XV95 -TUH2B080A9V3VA
XR15 - 4TWR5036G1000A
Coil - 4TXCB004CC3
XL-950 control - TZONE950AC52ZA
Aprilaire Humidifier
Aprilaire 3410 Media filter

The AHRI specs are better than Bryant, Trane has demand defrost and the price is $1300 cheaper. I'm sacrificing 5 years of labor and the true communicating control but at the end of the day I think this is the best choice.

Anyone see anything wrong with this configuration? I really like this new control and it appears it offers everything the Honeywell IAQ/prestige offers. Please correct me if I am wrong.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Did we ever determine your location?

Nice system...see below...

4656644 Active Systems TRANE XR15 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR5036G1 4TXCB004CC3 1055 *UH2B080A9V3 36200 12.00 14.50 33600 9.00 21000 1 HRCU-A-CB 310 772

If you live in location with typical ice and/or snow, you might consider upgrade to the XL15i HP condenser. Has same good numbers, proprietary top, and extra 2 yr warranty on compressor.

I prefer Trane's Perfect Fit Media cabinet

Questions on the Trane control that I would want answered.

1. WiFi capability?
2. Dehumidify on demand capability
3. Able to control auxillary equipment like the AprilAire humidifier

You can bet you will pay a premium for the 950 controller over HW Prestige 2.0. May not be important.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: XL950 Trane controller


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Carrier and Bryant are no longer offering the 10 year labor warranty. Was the contractor going to provide the labor warranty? Did it involve having to sign up for a maintenance plan?


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Tigerdunes, I live in Ohio and considered the XLI but it's $900 more. I can't justify the additional cost for the XLI. I considered the Trane Perfect fit media filter but it appears it's an odd ball size and the filters will be expensive.

Mike_home, the labor warranty's for Carrier/Bryant are offered thru third party insurance companies. I believe this is true with Trane as well? Appears all the big brands are getting out of the warranty business and this has driven the cost of the labor warranties up. A 10 year labor warranty is $800 on the low side and I had quotes up to $1100.


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

I agree about the upgrade price to the XL15i model.

Don't understand about the Perfect Fit media cabinet. It is sized to fit the return end of the furnace like a glove fits a hand, therefore the explanation of the name. I have it. It is a solidly made HD cabinet and I buy generic filters. Visually, it makes for a much nicer install. You should reconsider.

I hope you followup on my questions on the controller.

You are on your way now.

Good Luck!


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Tigerdunes, it does have wi-fi and allows dehumidy on demand. Need to verify item 3 and I'll let you know when I get the answer. Where do you buy your filters for the Perfect Fit and how much are they? How often do you change them? Does it affect the air flow much?


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RE: New System Energy Efficient or is old one better?

Tiger just confirmed it can control the humidifier as well.


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