Describe your typical winters and summers.

Post back.

IMO

Our part of Southern California is very moderate - average highs in winters is mid-60's with lows in the mid-40's... summers average mid-high 80's with lows in the mid 60s. We also get 90-100 days in the summer as well. And of course, we are dealing with the heat now, as the A/C starts to sputter.

The house is two story, 1977 build, and we have asbestos to deal with as well as part of this project. We are not huge runners of the A/C except for when we have awful days (hitting high 80's and above). In addition, I'm not looking for the fanciest, all bells and whistles, just something solid, energy efficient (anything will be better than our 1977 unit) and will sustain over time.

Thanks in advance.

This post was edited by Hillside_Dweller on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 0:58

Bump

Bump

If a load calculation were done (and one should be -- go with the "SCE installation"), I am doubtful that you truly need a 4 ton system given the living area and climate description. Oversizing was very common back in the day. Bigger is better was the (wrong) mentality in terms of comfort and energy efficiency. The new equipment should not be sized based on the old, existing system. I would start there. The XB16 is a fine unit if you're looking for a reliable, energy-efficient system that won't carry as much upfront cost. While I would recommend the XR16 system, your bid already seems on the high-side to me, but so is the cost of living over there I assume. 36 years is a great life for the old system.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 22:01

The way it works with many of the contractors in SCAL, they won't do the load calc until after you sign with them - the contract could be sized down in the event we need to take that route. So, a bit more back and forth. I think we maybe looking at:

XV16 Condenser (4TTR6048B1000A)
XC80 Variable Speed Furnace (TUD2C080ACV42A)
Trane Coil (4TXCC049BC3HCB)
Thermostat (TCONT602)

All total, we are looking around 10,200. I wish they would do an advanced service warranty but they don't self-ensure and only sell the Trane 10 year service warranty ($500 is their cost).

Thoughts ?

A nice system, but I wonder why they specify the XC80 communicating furnace when none of the system components are communicating. There is no advantage in this case. The XV80 (TUD2C080B9V4) provides the same system-level performance (capacity/efficiency) and is lower in cost. Possibly a mistake on the proposal as well.

I'd prefer the TCONT803 thermostat. It's a touchscreen programmable model that allows you to control summer dehumidification (it does so by overcooling by 1-3 deg as set by the installer; works out well when enabled with Comfort-R). For this caliber system, that's the minimum I would want, but the 602 is not a bad stat and would work with this system. They need to configure the thermostat to control the two separate heating stages in the furnace, not wire it for one stage heating and use the timer on the furnace control board to upstage when necessary. Let the thermostat control the staging based on demand. This is very important for your comfort and to get the most out of the premium equipment you paid for. This may require the installers to run additional cable between your thermostat and furnace.

So you are saying they don't even provide a 1-year labor warranty on their installation? I thought Trane required that as a minimum of their dealers, but I could be wrong. 1 year is baseline; 2 years is not uncommon either from the good companies that are confident to stand behind their work...

What have they said about the size and condition of your existing ductwork?

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 22:38

Regarding the thermostat, we told them that we preferred simpler -- rather than too complicated (my request). Can you explain what ComfortR is? Sorry for my ignorance!

On the service warranty, it is for 1 year - I was just hoping for more. I keep hearing about the importance of a really good installation and I would think that due to the SCE process, their work is a bit more scrutinized ? I could be wrong on this. The other (smaller) contractor had good reviews in Angie's List but I'm a bit gun shy because it seems like such a small operation. Any thoughts on this ?

All exposed ductwork will be replaced - sizing wasn't a problem.

Thanks for your help!

Comfort-R is a feature of Trane's variable speed furnaces and air handlers that provides a slow ramp-up of the blower in the cooling mode. This gets the indoor coil colder quicker, thereby enhancing dehumdification. It will run at 50% speed for the first minute, then 80% for the next 7.5 minutes, and finally 100% when and if needed. This needs to be turned on by the installers, and they also need to set the dipswitches on the control board appropriately for whichever size A/C gets installed (this should be common knowledge but unfortunately not all installers touch the factory default settings).

Can you post all the model numbers of the system you have been provided with (or should have been provided with)? Furnace, air conditioner, and evaporator coil (should be a Trane coil).

I'm not opposed to the smaller operations. Sometimes they do the better work. So yes, there are other factors upon which you can evaluate the smaller companies beyond size alone -- the same way you would evaluate the other companies. Including factory and in-house training commitment, are they factory authorized for the products they sell, referrals/reviews, how long they've been in operation, do they do heat load/loss calculations, are they knowledgeable in duct design -- to name a few things.

I'm not familiar with the SCE program to know what it entails, besides the load calculation you mentioned, which is very important.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 9:36

Thanks Ryan-

Here is the proposed configuration of the units:

XV16 Condenser (4TTR6048B1000A)
XC80 Variable Speed Furnace (TUD2C080ACV42A)
Trane Coil (4TXCC049BC3HCB)
Thermostat (TCONT602)

Essentially, the SCE program provides a level of oversight, ensuring the installation in an energy efficient manner, setting minimum performance expectations for contractors, etc. The are also NATE certified, are a Trane Comfort Specialist (etc). What they provide (that I like) are the full load calculations and with that, combined with the other, I feel like I'll get a really good installation. The smaller guy has great angie's list reviews, seems super service oriented, etc. but doesn't do the load cals. Honestly, he is the guy I would call to service my unit, but I'm not sure he should be installing it... does that make sense? I'm just a bit hung up on the service warranty (the smaller company has a 5 year warranty) --

Thoughts ? Then I'm calling somebody because our AC is barely limping along & it is going to be 100 today... argh!!

First of all, you want a box filter cabinet if you don't have one.

I believe this condenser model number indicates the two stage version of the XR16. The B series indicates two stage.

You don't need a communicating furnace without full communicating equipment. A waste of equipment and your resources. Ask for the XV80 as listed below. It will be just fine for your home. Should save you some bucks.

I want a different coil model that actually will qualify for FED tax credit. The system proposed does not. Ask dealer about the one below? Give him the AHRI number below.

5868524 Active Systems XR16 TRANE 4TTR6049B1 4TXCD061BC3 1370 *UD2C080B9V4 45500 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 344 Yes

And finally, I suggest the 803 stat or HW equivalent Mdl #8321 which should be less expensive.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 12:48

"I believe this condenser model number indicates the two stage version of the XR16. The B series indicates two stage."

Hey Tiger -- the "A" model was actually the 2-stage model and is phased out, and the "B" model is the new single stage XR16. Now the XR17 is the 2-stage model (4TTR7). Confusing, isn't it? Just FYI.

I agree with the XV80 recommendation and was thinking the XC80 was a mistake myself. I like the sounds of the SCE program. It does sound like you are dealing with a competent dealer, but can't make that judgment from where I'm sitting.

I understand that this is indeed, a single stage version of the XR 16. I'll check into the XV versus the XC furnace --- thanks for the suggestions!

Given that we have already taken advantage of other tax credits (new windows/tankless water heater), I'm pretty sure we aren't eligible for the tax rebate. That said, does the difference in the coil matter ?

Ryan, I am totally confused.

You are correct and I am mistaken.

The two stage 4 ton XR16, XV80 80 K 4 ton rated blower, coil that reaches tax credit threshold, 803 stat. Add box filter cabinet.

Check this one out please.

5456076 Active Systems XR16 TRANE 4TTR6048A1 4TXCD061BC3 1370 1090 *UD2C080B9V4 47000 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 355 Yes

Good numbers.

IMO

Okay Tiger... that just went SOARING over my head - lol

4TTR6048A1 - that looks like the two stage system; I'm interested in a single stage system for cooling. Can you take one more peek ? Thanks!!

This post was edited by Hillside_Dweller on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 13:14

Stay with 2 stage for use on low stage for mild days. But if you absolutely insist on the single stage XR16, then here is the AHRI configuration you would want. It also qualifies for Fed Tax Credit.

5868524 Active Systems XR16 TRANE 4TTR6049B1 4TXCD061BC3 1370 *UD2C080B9V4 45500 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 344 Yes

With 8321 HW stat and filter box.

IMO

Pardon the dumb question... what is a filter box ?

No dumb question here. Everyone can learn including myself.

How do you filter return air? How many returns do you have in your home? Several central returns or individual return registers.

I prefer a pleated filter media cabinet mounted at return end of furnace for best filtration of indoor air as well as superior protection of evap coil and VS blower motor. All mighty important.

IMO