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Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Posted by cebury (My Page) on
Wed, Aug 17, 11 at 19:27

Replacing my dying 20+yr old roof gas-pack 2.5t Carrier 48NLT030300 in hot Central CA. IMO, it is sized OK (maybe not perfect). A manual-J requests a 3.5ton (hard to believe) for our little house -- that I don't intend to live in for more than 6 more years.

I'm reviewing a couple 3T/13SEER quotes:

Payne PY3GNA036060
vs.
Goodman GPG1336070M41 for $500 more.
Both fully installed.

Opinions?

A Google search on Payne reviews reveal a long list full of complaints for everything from the compressor, coil, blowers, furnace, you name it. There is a little of that on Goodman, not as much. But what worries me is the discussion of "everyone getting bad copper for the past few years" so all the copper based coils are having pinhole leak problems. Not sure if this is substantiated if it's a scare tactic to sell extended warranties, it sure is working on me.

I see a lot of "it's all in the installer". Is that really true when replacing with a new unit? I understand the basics: expertise would determine ducting appropriateness (seals, sizing, etc) but if replacing with same sized unit, there probably wouldn't be any new drainage or electrical work needed? Increase the return, some rough carpentry for roof interface, add refrigerant, maybe upgrade the thermostat? A great tech might spot "potential" problems during install based on the sights/sounds the unit makes and intervene.

I've even seen the "installer" comment on threads re: leaky coils. What exactly does the installer do that would make coils leaky?

Thanks in advance,


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Don't care for either.

What is warranty on each system?

Carrier did have coil problems but they have changed over to "tin plated evap coils" which have solved that problem. Not certain if the tin plated are used in package systems. You need to ask.

Both systems are low end 13 SEER models.

I prefer Trane/AmStd package units.

IMO


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

aaaa


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

I would rather have Payne personally. I've never seen either of their company's packaged units. Only their a/c's and furnaces.


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

How can a forum member recommend Payne when he has never seen their package units?

IMO


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

based on their A/C's and furnaces compared to goodman's a/c's and furnaces.


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Well, of course the reputation of both brands are out in the HVAC marketplace...


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Thanks for sharing.

I'm not sure re:warranty on the Payne, I think it might have been only 1 yr (as it's being installed via home warranty thru American Home Shield). The Goodman was their basic 10yr parts only. I know labor is high on many replacement parts.

Per my original post, does the installer REALLY matter much when doing a straight change out of a gas-pack like this? (I am going to have some ductwork done, but to simplify the question assume none is needed).

Thanks again for giving so much of your time in this forum!


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Cebury

Let me see if I have this straight.

This is a full warranty replacement through AHS? If so, request a monetary settlement and get a decent pkg unit with a good install from a qualified dealer.

I have little confidence in these 3rd party warranty companies as well as the dealers that are associated with them.

IMO


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

The payne unit was from the AHS. I compared the full price of the Payne (AHS unit cashout value + covered transition charges + my charges for all itemized non-coverables) to a non-warranty co. vendor quote for the Goodman. I compared both quotes to a 3rd party checklist showing itemized unit replacement charges, to make sure I was comparing apples to apples.

I'm getting more quotes next week, but 1 year ago quotes for American Standard were 8500 and 10.5k for 2YCC3042A1064A 3.5t/13seer and 4YCY4042B1096A 3.5t/14seer. Which was double the price of a low-end quote back then (not the payne/goodman above). Obviously those AS are R22, but I can't see them being cheaper 1 year later. I can hope those AS estimates were intentionally inflated to capture profits from customers racing for the 2010 rebates deadline. Too much for me since I've stayed in this house longer than I ever wanted to.


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

A bad installer can screw up a simple change out. It hasn't to me, but I have read about them on posts on this forum and on others. This is especially true when a home warranty company is involved.

I realize you are trying to keep costs down, but be wary of the low priced equipment and installation. It may ending up costing more in the long run.


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Cebury

The AmStd pkg systems are superior to either the Payne or Goodman. I subscribe to the fact that you usually get what you pay for and that includes HVAC.

The two mdls you listed are R22 and R410 refrigerant. The two Prefix indicates an R22 system and the four prefix indicates R410 refrigerant.

But if you intend to have either the Payne or Goodman installed, here are the factors to consider.

1. Warranty on each system-labor, parts, compressor, heat exchanger

2. Out of pocket cost to you

3. Confidence and dealer reputation-if you don't know, find out.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: AmStd gaspaks


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne/final thought

Cebury

If you intend to go up in size from a 2 1/2 ton to a 3 ton package system, you will need to have dealer evaluate your ductwork system both supply and return to see if it can handle the additional CFMs.

What size is your home? What size is the furnace part of both the Payne and Goodman? Any idea of the furnace size of unit to be replaced?

IMO


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

What happened to the current unit? Did the insurance company already approve the replacement of the old one?


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

I know about the ducting concerns, I just wanted to exclude that from the conversation for simplicity sake. I guess I was hoping to hear insight specific to the manufacturers or even better the unit proposed (strengths, weaknesses, etc).

Conditioned space is only about 1150sqft, single story, with one area of vaulted ceilings. For our climate & preferences we don't need much in the way of furnace power. It only occasionally gets below 38F at night during winter. Our gas rates aren't cheap but my TOTAL gas bill for the entire year was $200 with the existing unit (and gas water heater).

Goodman/Amana nomenclature: GPG-13-36-070. The 070 is the 69k heating input, which is 55k output @ 80% AFUE. The Payne unit PY3G-036-060 is 60k/47k.

I'm not going with the Payne. I'm cashing out from AHS. Not only did I not trust the installer they chose (after talking with the owner in detail) but the Goodman vendor is a friend and part of the family owned hvac company for 60yrs. He gave me another reasonable quote on the 15seer Goodman which has 10yrs parts -- checking on upgrade price with GoodCare for 5yrs labor.

The 20yr old Carrier 48NLT 030 was 40k/31k heat and the 2.5t ac 9.5SEER (best case scenario, with my freon leaks I'm sure it's very very low now). Other than the coil leaks that slowly developed over the past many years, and 1 svc call for a relay board, the thing ran like a champ for 21 years.

Thanks


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Cebury

If your old gaspak heated your home satisfactorily, then I would consider moving down to the smaller 3 ton Goodman Gaspak that has a 37 KBTU heating output.

I am attaching link to the specs.

I would not purchase a third party warranty.

Weigh carefully cost and warranty by upgrading to the 15 SEER gaspak if you plan on moving within 6 yrs.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: GPG 13M Gaspaks


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Thanks for the suggestion.

Yes the old unit heated our home just fine. Also cooled it just fine, too except it cost too much whenever freon got low.

Question: Why would you not purchase an extended warranty?

Got quoted from a reputable company to replace the old unit. Their suggestion was the Trane 4YCY-4036B1075a which I believe is the XL14c gas-pack, correct? I can't find the spec sheet on it anywhere, just the basic info from Trane's site which is pasted all over dealers pages. Their customer "Specification Details" only says 14.20 seer, 80% afue, 2stage heat, s-steel hx, dual-speed Vortica blower. The rest is filled with useless marketing Terms like:
* State-of-the-art fan system
* Ultra-quiet operation
* Climatuff compressor delivers superior reliability
* Durable Weather Beater Top shrugs off the elements year after year
* And don't forget those "functional louvers" and "sleek rounded corner guards" ;-)

I have this 2008 dealer sheet

Question: Is this the only sheet or does anyone have a real updated spec sheet? Model # nomenclature, detailed specs & installer docs are easy to google for other brands, not sure why they aren't indexed for trane.

The dealer sheet states "Heating Input 56/75 or 72/96" but I don't know which it is since the model # nomenclatures I have are either old or don't cover packaged units. I'm sure Tigerdunes knows this answer off the top =)

Chris


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Cebury

As I said in my first post, I do like Trane/AmStd products including package systems.

I would not purchase an Ext warranty if I planned to leave home within 5-6 yrs. Take the risk and save some money.

But if you want an Ext warranty, you only want a manufacturer's Ext warranty. Third party warranties are too problematic. The Ext warranty in most cases provides labor up to 10 yrs.

The Trane mdl is top of line and includes a var speed blower and two stg heating. It appears it comes in two heating sizes for three ton AC. I would suspect the low stg for the smaller furnace would be in the 40 KBTU range. You would never use the higher stg. This should be verified with dealer.the mdl number you list is the one with the smaller furnace.

IMO


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Thanks td,

Hmmm.. I went from bottom to top of the line from the GPG13 to 4YCY quotes (both 3ton, 13v14seer, 55v40k furnaces,same warranty). The difference was $1600, fully installed. Then $300 for tax rebate = $1300. Would be worth it if I were living here for 10yrs, maybe even worth it now.

Regarding Smaller Goodman: Does an oversized furnace cause the same types of discomfort and efficiency (cycling) issues as an oversize cooling unit? Because the difference in price between a Goodman with the 045 furnace and the 070 furnace is like 10 bucks.

Regarding Warranty: OK that makes sense.

Question: Is the older A/S-4YCY4042B1096A the same unit as the Trane XL14c 4YCY4036B1075a -- except one is 0.5ton larger and one furnace size larger? Or are there better / worse features?

Thanks


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Cebury

American Standard package systems are identical to Trane's except for cosmetics and cabinet.

I want to back a minute about you increasing size of AC and make certain this is actually indicated and ductwork can handle additional CFMs. Mighty important!

American Standard has same unit as the Trane that was quoted.

4YCY4036B1075A 38000 45000 60000 79.5 14.2 36 51 43 488

Remember there are package systems from Trane/AmStd that are less expensive and would compete against the 13SEER Goodman model.

Let me know if I can help
IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: AmStd Package Systems


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

I asked if A/S-4YCY4042B1096A is functionally same as 4YCY4036B1075a (except 0.5ton & furnace 1 size larger) because the difference in quotes (that are both from the two reputable "expensive" companies in town) is $5,000!

I was suspicious the company that quoted the A/S-4YCY4042B1096A 15months ago was price gouging to get unaware folks in time before the 2010 tax rebate expired.

I already have MY desired plan for the increase in ductwork, as I ran some math on the existing ductwork (no easy task) compared to my suggestions. Whether my plan is worth a lick will be evaluated by a 3rd party and PBI. The ductwork in my home is very simple and the gas-pack is placed perfectly in between all the critical rooms. Any upgrades to plenum & ducting should be pretty easy once the static/pressure resistance tests come back on the existing ones. Roof openings are measured and confirmed adequate for 3.5ton system, except for the obvious need for a new curb adapter.


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Cebury

That is a 3 1/2 ton model with a 96 KBTU furnace.

It's too big-you don't need it.

I really don't understand what you and the dealer are doing.

IMO


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RE: Compare Goodman vs. Payne

Tiger: I don't want to buy that unit. I was asking for my own information to piece together the very first AC quote I received last year.

Your response confirms it for me. That particular dealer (last year) was trying to sell me on a 4ton and I said NO WAY when our current 2.5unit is worked just fine to cool+heat the home except for previous few months (turned out later cause was low freon). He specifically said "since your bills are too high and the unit is running continuous trying to cool, you need a bigger model. The track home builders are notorious for installing undersized junk" which I learned after he left was B.S. I hadn't done any of my own research yet to defend against such statements. It's common knowledge you don't buy bigger cfm/tonnage to reduce bills without *consistent* incorrect sizing symptoms. I demanded he quote me on nothing bigger than 3.5ton. He left me with a $10,500 quote for the A/S-4YCY unit. The Quote specifically says does not include duct work and ducting requirements weren't mentioned at all.

This isn't a dealer I'm getting quotes from today -- the new dealer estimates are much less than half the cost and are they are upfront about explaining everything. However, I'm more educated today than I was back then, in part from these forums.


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