Sorry, cheaper bid was the two 2 ton systems and the more expensive the 2 and 3 ton systems but the cheaper system had the 2 zones on one of the systems so as to better condition the loft in the A-frame where there is no chance of running a return and currently has a booster fan to get supply up there.

I saw your thread over at HVAC-Talk (pricing isn't allowed there). Your prices sound reasonable to me for the amount of work being done. I am not a fan of the XL16i, though, so I would suggest you go with 2 properly-sized XL15i units or another brand. Proper sizing per load calculation is important, so you'll certainly want to look at the figures from the load calculation.

Look at the performance of the XL16i with that air handler:

22,800 BTU's of cooling - reasonable
12.00 EER - okay
16.00 SEER - good
20,000 BTU's of heat - 4,000 BTU's short -- that means more backup heat being used
8.35 HSPF - not impressive for what you're paying

Also, the VisionPRO IAQ can't slow the blower down with the XL16i to dehumidify on demand since the XL16i controls the BK terminal (or something along those lines). Unless your installer rigs something up. The TCONT900 as far as I know is not compatible with the 4TEE3F air handlers, only the 4TEE3C air handlers, which are communicating. I see no ARI data for the XL16i matched to a communicating air handler (not saying it can't happen--I'm not 100% sure on this). This is one of the reasons I am suggesting the XL15i. That and it's not-so-great performance in heating. There isn't a huge difference between high and low stage with the XL16i from what I've heard anyway, though it helps for zoning nonetheless.

Pricing varies by location and dealer, so it's hard to give you a reasonable estimate. The sizing of the unit doesn't change the price that much to the dealer at least. You're going to need to ask your dealer what his prices are for these upgrades/changes.

I did not realize that prices were taboo at HVAC-Talk so should probably withdraw my post there. I msi spoke saying TCONT900. Actually, one dealer bid a TCONT803 and the other a Honeywell 9000 both claiming they were needed for the XL16i and both claiming that they were the same as the Honeywell VisionPro IAQ.

Also, why is the XL16i rated "up to" 9.2 HSPF and the XL15i 9.0 HSPF if the XL15i is better at heating? Thanks.

Because "up to" is just that. Some matchups may get that; others won't. The HSPF is just one part of it. You also want to look at the BTU output of each unit. The 2-ton XL16i puts out 4,000 BTU's less heat than a 2-ton system should.

Neither one of those thermostats is needed for the XL16i. The TCONT803 is not identical to the VisionPRO IAQ as the only thing it can do to dehumidify is overcool by up to 3 degrees. The IAQ slows the blower down, which as I noted above cannot be done with the XL16i (unless your installer can rig something up, which I doubt). The 2-ton XL15i with that air handler puts out a full 2 tons of heating and a bit more than 2 tons of cooling. It is also rated at a higher HSPF of 8.60 and EER of 13.00 (compared to the 12 of the XL16i--on stage 2). With the 4TEE3F39 air handler, which is considerably taller and may be harder to fit, you would get even better performance: slightly over 2 tons of cooling, 2 tons of heating, 13.00 EER, 16.00 SEER, and 9.00 HSPF.

Thanks Ryan! If I go with the XL15i unit instead of the XL16i:

- "roughly" how much should I save getting the XL15i vs. the XL16i in equipment costs?
- do you suggest any other "matchups" other than what were in the original post? I have a good 6'-7' of vertical space to work with still allowing another foot ontop for ducting.
- is the Honeywell 9000 the same as the Honeywell ProVision IAQ and will it dehumidify properly working with the XL15i OK?
- Is is OK making one of the XL15i systems 2 zones as it seems there are issues with the XL16i.
- Is dehumidify on demand better or is Comfort R better whatever that is?

Thanks,
Dave

1. It really depends on how much your dealer charges for each one. It could be $1000, it could be more, or it could be less. Best bet is to ask your dealer.

2. The 4TEE3F39 is 57.9" tall. I'd want at least a 14" return box. That's about 7 feet right there. If it will fit, this air handler will provide the best ratings per ARI's directory. If not, the 4TEE3F31 would provide decent performance. See above for actual ratings.

3. Trane's TCONT900 is supposedly the same thing as the IAQ without the equipment interface module, since it's communicating with the "C" model air handlers and furnaces. The VisionPRO IAQ if configured properly can slow the blower down to dehumidify on demand with the XL15i and 2/4TEE air handler.

4. You can absolutely zone a single-stage system. It will require proper ductwork design and most likely a bypass damper.

5. Comfort-R is just a ramp-up profile. Some actually recommend not using Comfort-R in conjunction with the VisionPRO IAQ's dehumidify on demand feature. This way, when you need dehumidification it will slow down, and when you don't you get maximum airflow for cooling.

Good luck. Get back to your contractor and let us know what he thinks.

Will do. Thanks so much Ryan!

codeslinger

First off,I am not a Trane basher. I live about 1 1/2 hrs down 26 from your area and have a Trane dual fuel system.

But I would not have the XL16i for several reasons.

1.efficiency numbers are poor for such high end HVAC
2.performance numbers for both heating and cooling BTUs are very poor.
3.I don't believe Trane recommends the XL16i for zoning-it has about 70-100 split between low and high stage.
4.There are just too many anecdotal stories about issues relating to the XL16i.
5.The HW VisionPro IAQ feature "dehumidify on demand" is not compatible for the XL16i which is important for your area/climate.

See below AHRI Performance numbers for various configurations.

XL16i HP with matching var spd air handler

1236563 Active Systems XL16I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX6024B1 4TEE3D31A1 22800 12.00 16.00 20000 8.25 12100
1236565 Active Systems XL16I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX6024B1 4TEE3D37A1 22800 11.80 15.75 20000 8.50 11000 1
1106622 Active Systems XL16I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX6024B1 4TEE3F31B1 22800 12.00 16.00 20000 8.35 12100 1
1106624 Active Systems XL16I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX6024B1 4TEE3F37B1 22800 12.00 16.00 20000 8.50 11000 1

Good SEER-that's about all

now the numbers for the XL15i

1383387 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5024A1 4TEE3D31A1 25200 12.90 15.00 24000 8.50 14000 1
1383389 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5024A1 4TEE3D37A1 24000 12.50 14.75 23600 8.50 13400 1
1383391 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5024A1 4TEE3F31B1 25200 13.00 15.25 24000 8.60 13900 1
1383393 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5024A1 4TEE3F37B1 24400 12.90 15.00 23800 8.30 13600 1
1382158 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5024A1 4TEE3F39A1 25000 13.00 16.00 24000 9.00 13800

much better EER and cooling/heating BTUs for the XL15i and if you have the space, the 4TEE3F39A1 air handler configuration offers the best XL15i system configuration

now take a look at Carrier's sgl stg Performance 15 with Infinity Air Handler and Controller

1125333 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA524H30 FE4AN(B,F)003+UI 23400 13.00 15.50 24000 9.00 15100 1

not shabby numbers either.

I agree with Ryan's comments.

As far as Clean Effects and EACs, I see no problem as the fire related issue has been resolved. There may be a small price advantage for the built-in Clean Effects. As far as the performance/efficiency numbers, there is no difference. I am not a fan of EACs because of maintenance/cleaning responsibilities for the homeowner. There is something to say about the old adage "keep it simple". Most homeowners will not adhere to properly maintaining EACs. For over 99% of homes, a good 4-5" pleated media filter cabinet MERV 10 is more than adequate for IAQ and protecting blower motor and evap coil. Changeout is up to one yr interval, takes a couple of minutes, and is very easy.

Foe two systems, you should be able to negotiate a good price on the 10 yr ext warranty-parts and labor. A price below $1k for two systems would be good.

Ductwork install is relatively cheap as long as its sized correctly and insulated properly=R8. I see no reason to zone one room as long as it receives the recommended CFMs to match the load.

I would want to see a written copy of Man J and Man D and review with dealer.

If you do decide on the XL15i, you should insist on the HW VP IAQ stat.

IMO

Need help. I reside in the Kansas City area. I am replacing my exisiting heating and air condition units with a high energy efficient unit, but I am unsure of what to do after reading online comments. I have obtained bids for the Trane XL 16i with variable spead furnace and air cleaner for $13,000, Lennox 15 Seer A/C with 95% energy efficient furance and air cleaner for $12,500 and American Standard Heritage 16 with 96% energy efficient furance for $11,000. What unit would you suggest if any or what units would you suggest. My home is 2 story with a finish basement that has 3400 sq ft of livable space.
LENO

Leno,

There are several factors to consider when replacing your system. Which contractor: A. did a load calculation analysis to determine proper sizing, B. examined the ductwork to determine proper sizing and ample supply and return, and C. did you feel most comfortable with?

Looks like the A-S system doesn't include an air cleaner. I don't recommend the XL16i or Heritage 16 units. The Heritage 16 is a heat pump.

Please post full model numbers of the equipment, which should be included in the quote.

How did the old units heat and cool? Did they keep the home comfortable, even on the hottest or coldest days?

codeslinger,

When comparing load calcs, there are aome important factors :
How they gathered specs on home(Did they get construction materials of YOUR HOME).
What manual J did they use 7th or 8th.
Is their orientation correct.
Do they have square footage correct.
What is winter and summer conditions for your area.

Wrightsoft and Elite are load calc programs that are accepted in a court of law. These are excellent programs. I use Wrightsoft, and is also approved by ACCA which is one of our trades top standards. A system is only as good as it is installed and maintained. It is good that you are doing duct besides the units. I am concerned about how much duct you are not replacing. I recommend a good system properly sized right to meet YOUR COMFORT NEEDS. A 2 stage compressor is a lot of money, and existing duct can effect the effiecency of that unit. Lifestyle could be a good reason to use a 2 stage system or if your load calc shows that you need only half the amount heat on your home as you do cooling, a 2 stage can help. Some people think that a load calc is used for cooling only, but if properly performed you will have your heating needs shown as well. lol David

Here is a link that might be useful: ACCA APPROVED HVAC LOAD CALCULATIONS

for cyclenoir

First of all, I would not have the XL16i for reasons outlined in 9th post above. If you want two stg condenser, then look at the Infinity 17 AC or Infinity 16 HP. It has a 50-100 split between low and high stg. I have to admit that these two stg condenser are usually overkill for most applications and not necessary.

Without knowing more about your particular situation along with other details, I find your quotes on the high side.

Doesn't your area have reasonable electric rates?

Here is a climate synopsis for your area as a guide only.

Climate averages for: KANSAS CITY, MO, 64101
Hot weather Cold weather
Average days per year above 75: 122
Average high temperature: 88.8
Average days per year below 40: 91
Average low temperature: 26.9
Doesn't your area have reasonable electric rates?

If so, I would look at dual fuel to leverage those electric rates.

For a two stg hybrid system, look at Carrier's Infinity Hybrid(dual fuel)-high eff var speed furnace with Infinity 16 HP.

For sgl stg hybrid system, again a Carrier with var spd furnace paired with Performance 15 HP.

I would also suggest a Trane var speed furnace paired with their XL15i HP.

I assume this is one system. You might want to discuss feasibility of zoning controls with your dealer for improved comfort and temp control between the floors. Keep in mind two systems would be best for multi floor homes.

IMO

Will the equipment listed above be adequate for the upstairs (2 BR, office with skylight and hall way be adequate in coastal SC? The current duct work is 'spider'. Will trunkline improve airflow? Thanks.

Depot,

You need to have a company come out and evaluate your current setup first hand and run a heat load analysis to determine proper sizing. Personally I wouldn't recommend the XL16i. The XL15i is a superior unit to me. It's hard to say spider ductwork layouts are bad as a general statement. Any setup has to be done right to work well. I personally prefer insulated metal trunklines with flex connectors.