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Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Posted by pbx2 (My Page) on
Mon, Aug 26, 13 at 17:02

We had proper Manual J, static pressure & leak testing all done for our 3000 sf new home in VA.

Came up with:
3 ton XR16 two-stage heat pump
Variable Speed Hyperion XL TAM8 Air Handler
Comfortlink2 950 T-Stat.

The documentation is horribly lacking in any details beyond how to press buttons and didn't really get any training from the Trane dealer either.

What kind of system do I have?
Can I adjust anything of note to increase comfort?

Would appreciate any insights!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

pbx

This would be the preferred AHRI HP Directory configuration.

5456953 Active Systems XR16 TRANE 4TWR6036A1 *AM8A0C42V31+BAYCC24V 1170 935 37400 13.00 18.00 32400 9.50 21200 1 HRCU-A-CB 251 612 Yes

What model air handler? Be specific please.

Unless you have extraordinary building qualities and insulation properties, I suspect you may be undersized.

What size heat strip? Staged or not?

I think a 4 ton would have served you better for comfort and operating costs.

Great equipment though.

IMO


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

tigerdunes - here is what I was able to pull from my Comfortlink2 equipment screen:

HP = 4TWR6036A1
Handler = TAM8A0C36V31+BAYCC24V
Dual Stage

My house was tested for tightness & results as follows:
Blower door test for CFM50 or Fan Flow came in at: 1092
Duct Blaster leakage test came in at: 8.67% (goal is 10%)
Leakage to outside came in at 4.78% (goal is 5%)


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Also - follow-up question regarding the fan speeds:
Currently, the fan is at 50% fan speed. I think that means it will run at 50% for circulation when the system is NOT requiring heating or cooling - true?

Any pro's vs. con's to lowering or raising the speeds?


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

I thought it was less than 50%. Not sure if it can be adjusted. The older models were not.

Of course, if you want the fan to run 24/7, the fan will need to be in "fan on" setting.

Suggest you look at your thermostat operator's manual or call your installing dealer.

IMO


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Operating manual doesn't address this unfortunately.

But on the ComfortLink2 T_Stat I can adjust the fan speed from Low/Med/Hi and increments of +/-5%.

I am assuming this still holds true about the inverse relationship of fan speed to humidity removal:

Blower speeds can be adjusted (+/-)to optimize results.
In a/c, lower speed gives greater dehumidification; higher gives better (sensible) temperature control (within limits).
In heating, higher speed = (usually)more flow/lower temperature; lower speed = less flow, higher temperature.


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Operating manual doesn't address this unfortunately.

But on the ComfortLink2 T_Stat I can adjust the fan speed from Low/Med/Hi and increments of +/-5%.

I am assuming this still holds true about the inverse relationship of fan speed to humidity removal:

Blower speeds can be adjusted (+/-)to optimize results.
In a/c, lower speed gives greater dehumidification; higher gives better (sensible) temperature control (within limits).
In heating, higher speed = (usually)more flow/lower temperature; lower speed = less flow, higher temperature.


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Bumping this up again since I am on a Trane kick right now - How can I tell if Comfort-R is set up correctly on my Trane equipment?


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

There should be a guide on Comfort R settings on the inside door of the TAM8 air handler. But you wouldn't want Comfort R on if system was set up for dehumidify on demand feature was set with this nice proprietary 900 series Trane stat.

I don't recommend messing with these settings by a homeowner who is not familiar with these controls. Best to call installer for him to show you at least the first time.

I have mine written down on my var speed furnace but would be hard pressed to locate it.

IMO


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Thanks tigerdunes for the feedback.
My thought process is to educate myself more so I can speak intelligently to my installer vs. actually doing anything! LOL!

I am surprised that you think my 950 T-Stat is set up for on-demand dehumidify. Why?

The only thing I see on the 950 is a humidity setting option (0-100%) which I can scroll up & down to set the humidity but am unsure the equipment is doing anything besides overcooling 1-2 degrees beyond my temp set-point.

This is why I ask about Comfort-R - thinking I have no control of humidity on demand.


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

I am not saying you have dehumidify on demand set up. I am saying comfort R and DOD are in conflict with each other. It's one or the other, not both. You have a non communicating system but a Comfort Link communicating stat. Was this because you wanted Internet connectivity? If so, not the best choice, but what's done is done.

IMO


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

The TAM8 Air handler is communicating but the XR16 heat pump isn't.

That said, the ComfortLink2 was just kinda "throw-in" by the builder...not sure now we even need the net connectivity as we haven't seen any real usage for it except current weather...


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

When set up properly with a communicating system, functionally Comfort-R and dehumidify on demand work together just fine. In the ComfortLink II system I believe it is still referred to as blower start up delay (or something to that effect, don't have the manual in front of me). Comfort-R is simply a timed ramp-up sequence of the indoor blower -- it doesn't respond to an input from the thermostat. So after the blower runs for 50% for one minute, the blower continues to run at 80% for 7.5 minutes, then going to 100% only if the humidity set point has been achieved but there is still a cooling demand. I have the TAM8 and TCONT900, not the newer 950 thermostat, but the sequence of operation would be the same in that regard.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 17:25


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

For Ryan

Not familiar with that Trane stat as I should be other than OP has a communicating thermostat and non communicating system. Seems a bit strange unless OP wanted Internet connectivity. I was always taught possibly incorrect that Comfort R and DOD were independent of each other. You are saying they can work together. It would seem though that the Honeywell stat would have been a better choice and probably less expensive if the OP wanted Internet connectivity.

Rgds
TD


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Hey Tiger,

Yes they can work together, and the reason I prefer to have Comfort-R enabled in addition to any dehumidify functions the thermostat may have is because it provides for a fast cooling of the indoor coil when the compressor first starts. This means more dehumidification happens sooner in the cooling cycle. This helps especially when many systems are oversized and short cycle to begin with. But it does vary by climate, and sometimes getting max airflow immediately is important in certain applications (i.e., a bedroom far away with insufficient ductwork benefiting from more airflow -- i.e., more cooling -- especially on mild days when the system doesn't run well). So while yes while the two functions do function well together and and work well in my home/climate, there are valid reasons to leave it off as well.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 20:15


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

@ryanhughes
is there any way for me to tell if Comfort-R has been deployed correctly on my TAM8 handler?

I checked the installer guide for the 950 T-Stat & it appears there is a something shown for a ramp-up process on page 19 under the Airflow section for VS Blower On Delay - Cooling and VS Blower Off Delay - Cooling.

If this is indeed the infamous Trane Comfort-R then can you advise on what these should be set on please (see in attached link).

Here is a link that might be useful: Trane Comforlink2 950 Thermostat Installation Guide


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

With Comfort-R enabled, when the system first begins in cooling mode, the blower will start-up slowly and quietly at 50% for one minute, then increase speed to provide 80% cooling airflow. If you see this happening then some form of blower-on delay has been deployed. Looks like the 950 offers a wider range of delay options, but the menu option for "1 Minute @ 50%, 7.5 Minutes @ 80%" is the classic Comfort-R setting. There is also an option to enable dehumidification and set an overcooling limit (I like 2 deg) -- I would have the installing company do so if it hasn't been done already. What I do not see is an option to set the dehumidification airflow, which may just no longer exist with the new controller algorithms, or it may be pre-programmed -- I'm not fully sure at this time. With the older 900 control, there was a parameter to set a percentage of cooling airflow when there was a call for dehumidification. The minimum was 80%, which is what I have mine set at. This is the so-called "dehumidify on demand" airflow.

I can't tell you how yours is currently configured from here, but your Trane dealer should have no problem going over these settings with you. After all, you paid extra for these comfort features and it makes sense to ensure they are all set up correctly.


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Thanks ryanhughes for the feedback.

Good to know that these dehumidifier & ramp options are available to me with my current equipment.

That said, I believe the installer didn't set me up correctly as I went into the installation menu last night & the cooling delay on options were nowhere to be seen.
Only the delay cooling off settings were available (delay heat off too).

Also the dehumidifier overcooling temperature limit option was not available either.

Am I correct in seeing that they didn't install properly with my current equipment?

I would think that these are all communication to the air handler & doesn't effect the non-communicating heat pump. True?


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Thanks ryanhughes for the feedback.

Good to know that these dehumidifier & ramp options are available to me with my current equipment.

That said, I believe the installer didn't set me up correctly as I went into the installation menu last night & the cooling delay on options were nowhere to be seen.
Only the delay cooling off settings were available (delay heat off too).

Also the dehumidifier overcooling temperature limit option was not available either.

Am I correct in seeing that they didn't install properly with my current equipment?

I would think that these are all communication to the air handler & doesn't effect the non-communicating heat pump. True?


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

I live in central fl. closer to west coast,summer temperature in mid-ninety's.House is 2000 sq ft. and has 15 year old 2.5 ton hp which is undersized due to enclosing a two car garage. According to a zone based chart on houses with attic insulation and tight windows etc. a 3.5 ton is good for up to 2100 sq ft. When sizing an ac unit caution not to oversize is always the rule. So I think 3.5 is right on,anyone disagree ?

This post was edited by ezrollin on Mon, Sep 2, 13 at 14:51


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

I live in central fl. closer to west coast,summer temperature in mid-ninety's.House is 2000 sq ft. and has 15 year old 2.5 ton hp which is undersized due to enclosing a two car garage. According to a zone based chart on houses with attic insulation and tight windows etc. a 3.5 ton is good for up to 2100 sq ft. When sizing an ac unit caution not to oversize is always the rule. So I think 3.5 is right on,anyone disagree ? Sorry, for multiple mis post had computer malfunction !

This post was edited by ezrollin on Mon, Sep 2, 13 at 16:18


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Sizing AC UNIT

I live in central fl. closer to west coast,summer temperature in mid-ninety's.House is 2000 sq ft. and has 15 year old 2.5 ton hp which is undersized due to enclosing a two car garage. According to a zone based chart on houses with attic insulation and tight windows etc. a 3.5 ton is good for up to 2100 sq ft. When sizing an ac unit caution not to oversize is always the rule. So I think 3.5 is right on,anyone disagree ?


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

PBX:

Does your blower operate in such a manner, during start-up in COOL mode, that would indicate Comfort-R is active? 50% for 1 minute, 80% for 7.5 minutes, 100% for the remainder of the cycle if needed.

Not sure why you aren't seeing some of these menu options. As far as I know the dehumidification functions are not dependent on a communicating outdoor unit, just the TAM8 (or XC furnace) and ComfortLink II control. Best to express your concerns with the installing dealer, and let them handle the installer settings.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Tue, Sep 3, 13 at 12:03


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Hi ryanhuges - wish you were in Richmond LOL!

re: - Does your blower operate in such a manner, during start-up in COOL mode, that would indicate Comfort-R is active? 50% for 1 minute, 80% for 7.5 minutes, 100% for the remainder of the cycle if needed.

There is nowhere on the CL2 that shows me the ramp profiles nor am I able to tell any differences in the airflow/airspeeds.
My current setting IS on COOL mode not Auto & Heat as you noted.

The installation guide's field wiring diagram (pg 8) does show the CL2 capable of controlling a Communicating Indoor air handler while also 24V wired to a Outdoor NON-Communicating heat pump (I assume this last component -my outdoor unit is a 2-stage HP -isn't critical to this discussion).


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Posted by ryanhughes (My Page) on Tue, Sep 3, 13 at 9:54
PBX:
Does your blower operate in such a manner, during start-up in COOL mode, that would indicate Comfort-R is active? 50% for 1 minute, 80% for 7.5 minutes, 100% for the remainder of the cycle if needed.

Not sure why you aren't seeing some of these menu options. As far as I know the dehumidification functions are not dependent on a communicating outdoor unit, just the TAM8 (or XC furnace) and ComfortLink II control. Best to express your concerns with the installing dealer, and let them handle the installer settings.

Ryan - the installer said that I am not seeing the Comfort-R options noted above in the CL2 t-stat because I am zoned. & so the system takes care of all of this.

does this sound right?


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

OK -- didn't realize this was a zoning application. I would say that this could make sense. The panel will determine the demand CFM (airflow) based upon the zones calling and communicate this information to the TAM8. It may be that the zone panel itself then controls the ramp-up sequence (i.e., Comfort-R) of the air handler as well. Best way to test this and to see if it is set up properly is to have one zone call for cooling and see if it follows the expected ramp-up profile. Should be noticeable with very little airflow felt from the vents within the first minute of the call for cooling. However with a zoning application, it could also be that Comfort-R isn't an option and the demand airflow is entirely determined based upon zones calling. That would mean it is always at 100% of the demand CFM (whatever fraction of the total nominal CFM that may be) without Comfort-R.

I wish I was familiar enough with the control logic of the new Trane modulating zone panel (assuming that's what was installed -- the Comfort Link II package) to give you a definitive yes/no to your questions. It doesn't sound like you got a clear response from your installers as to the operation of Comfort-R and the dehumidify features either, other than the zoning system takes care of it all.

Is there anywhere for you to input a desired indoor humidity setting in the ComfortLink II thermostat? How about the individual zone controllers? When Comfort-R is enabled, it is active every cooling cycle regardless of whether the humidity set point is met). I would still find it odd not to have the ability to set humidity from (at least) the main zone thermostat.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Sep 18, 13 at 20:54


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

Posted by ryanhughes (My Page) on Wed, Sep 18, 13 at 13:29
However with a zoning application, it could also be that Comfort-R isn't an option and the demand airflow is entirely determined based upon zones calling. That would mean it is always at 100% of the demand CFM (whatever fraction of the total nominal CFM that may be) without Comfort-R.

I will have to check on this.

Posted by ryanhughes (My Page) on Wed, Sep 18, 13 at 13:29
Is there anywhere for you to input a desired indoor humidity setting in the ComfortLink II thermostat?

Yes - there is a humidity option on the 950 where I can adjust humidity from 45-60%

Posted by ryanhughes (My Page) on Wed, Sep 18, 13 at 13:29
How about the individual zone controllers? When Comfort-R is enabled, it is active every cooling cycle regardless of whether the humidity set point is met). I would still find it odd not to have the ability to set humidity from (at least) the main zone thermostat.

The humidity option is for all 3 zones apparently as I can't alter it for individual zones.


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Reviews of XR Trane unit

I am about to sign a contract to have my old Unit (4ton) replaced with this Trane combination: XR16 GAM5BOC48M41SA a/h and 4TTR6049B1000A cond with 46,500 BTUS cooling 16SEER
My house is approx 1959sqft in sw florida. New to the site so don't know if I can add the price I am paying with rebates. Is this a good unit.


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RE: Any Trane experts out there who can tell me about my system?

fitota,

Start your own thread and pose your question. Don't tack on to a six-month old unrelated thread.

If you do a little reading on the forum before weighing in, you'll know whether to include pricing... and may find your questions answered after doing some searching and reading.

sheesh. :-)


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